Maybe a case against Robust tool rests?

[Steve Mathews]

While looking for another tool rest in the approx. 8" size I thought about trying out one the Robust rests. All of the ones I have now are made out of softer ductile or cast iron. The advantage of the Robust rests seems to be the hardened top bar that resists dents and scratches. All well and good but what to do if the bar becomes marred. A ductile iron rest can be filed and smoothed down, hard to do with a hardened rest unless ground. Am I missing something in my reasoning? I would like to try a Robust rest but don't quite see the advantage.

[mike ash]

I'm certainly not an expert on tool rests, but I do have a robust 8" and 4". The 8" is the one I have used most often for 10+ years. I have never had anything ding or mar the hardened top bar. On the other hand, I have often had to do some finishing of the tool rests that came with the Powermatic.
Awhile back someone did a post where they epoxied a hardened straight bar on top of their soft ductile tool rest and I think I remember that they reported good results. Just a thot!!!

[Steve Mathews]

I'm certainly not an expert on tool rests, but I do have a robust 8" and 4". The 8" is the one I have used most often for 10+ years. I have never had anything ding or mar the hardened top bar. On the other hand, I have often had to do some finishing of the tool rests that came with the Powermatic.
Awhile back someone did a post where they epoxied a hardened straight bar on top of their soft ductile tool rest and I think I remember that they reported good results. Just a thot!!!

Have you ever nicked the tool itself with the hardened top bar?

[John K Jordan]

While looking for another tool rest in the approx. 8" size I thought about trying out one the Robust rests. All of the ones I have now are made out of softer ductile or cast iron. The advantage of the Robust rests seems to be the hardened top bar that resists dents and scratches. All well and good but what to do if the bar becomes marred. A ductile iron rest can be filed and smoothed down, hard to do with a hardened rest unless ground. Am I missing something in my reasoning? I would like to try a Robust rest but don't quite see the advantage.

Two things:

- The bar is hardened tool steel and would be very difficult to nick, but you could probably nick it with a grinder or a cutting torch.

- Brent, the owner of Robust, offers a no-questions-asked replacement on any tool rest, whether it came defective or whether you damaged in some way. Or at least they did in the past. Contact them to make sure this is still the policy. They always answer the phone. Phone: 608-924-1133 info@turnrobust.com

I have at least 10 of these rests from for two different size lathe, normal rests from 4" to 15" and some curved. I have been using them for years and haven't damaged one yet.

[Steve Mathews]

OK, seems like the Robust rests are worth a try. I just ordered a couple of 9" rests, Comfort and Low Profile Comfort and a 9" J-Rest.

[Richard Coers]

Should you ever get some sort of burr or nick, a diamond honing stone will clean it up nicely.

[Steve Mathews]

Should you ever get some sort of burr or nick, a diamond honing stone will clean it up nicely.


Yes, didn't think of that. Thanks!

[Pat Scott]

Too bad you ordered Robust already, I was going to suggest looking at Advanced Lathe Tools rests instead (advancedlathetools.com). Robust rests are based off Steve Sinners design. The two main differences are Advanced uses a 3/8" hardened rod where Robust uses 1/4". Advanced welds their rods into a channel where Robust welds on top (which do you think is stronger). I don't know if Advanced uses thicker steel or what but they don't have vibration issues that Robust rests can have. A couple of other advantages that I've noticed are when shear scraping with Robust the tool shaft can hit the bottom of the rest when the tool handle is dropped low. With Advanced the support angle is more acute meaning I can drop the handle a lot farther and not hit the rest. And lastly I can position the rest farther into an opening than Robust. On top of all this the Advanced are only about $5 more than Robust.

[Richard Coers]

Too bad you ordered Robust already, I was going to suggest looking at Advanced Lathe Tools rests instead (advancedlathetools.com). Robust rests are based off Steve Sinners design. The two main differences are Advanced uses a 3/8" hardened rod where Robust uses 1/4". Advanced welds their rods into a channel where Robust welds on top (which do you think is stronger). I don't know if Advanced uses thicker steel or what but they don't have vibration issues that Robust rests can have. A couple of other advantages that I've noticed are when shear scraping with Robust the tool shaft can hit the bottom of the rest when the tool handle is dropped low. With Advanced the support angle is more acute meaning I can drop the handle a lot farther and not hit the rest. And lastly I can position the rest farther into an opening than Robust. On top of all this the Advanced are only about $5 more than Robust.

If the Robust stem really does get in your way, you can rotate it 180 degrees and have the offset face the bowl. Then you have all the room you want to drop the handle.

[Steve Mathews]

Too bad you ordered Robust already, I was going to suggest looking at Advanced Lathe Tools rests instead (advancedlathetools.com). Robust rests are based off Steve Sinners design. The two main differences are Advanced uses a 3/8" hardened rod where Robust uses 1/4". Advanced welds their rods into a channel where Robust welds on top (which do you think is stronger). I don't know if Advanced uses thicker steel or what but they don't have vibration issues that Robust rests can have. A couple of other advantages that I've noticed are when shear scraping with Robust the tool shaft can hit the bottom of the rest when the tool handle is dropped low. With Advanced the support angle is more acute meaning I can drop the handle a lot farther and not hit the rest. And lastly I can position the rest farther into an opening than Robust. On top of all this the Advanced are only about $5 more than Robust.

The Advanced tool rests look promising but their website doesn't mention the post length. I just sent them an email with that question. I may give one a try if they have the longer posts needed for my Oneway 2436.

[Bernie Kopfer]

Looked at the Advanced tool rests on line. Do they have the nice curvature for the hand to rest in that some of the Robust’s do?

[John K Jordan]

Too bad you ordered Robust already, I was going to suggest looking at Advanced Lathe Tools rests instead (advancedlathetools.com). Robust rests are based off Steve Sinners design. The two main differences are Advanced uses a 3/8" hardened rod where Robust uses 1/4". Advanced welds their rods into a channel where Robust welds on top (which do you think is stronger). I don't know if Advanced uses thicker steel or what but they don't have vibration issues that Robust rests can have. A couple of other advantages that I've noticed are when shear scraping with Robust the tool shaft can hit the bottom of the rest when the tool handle is dropped low. With Advanced the support angle is more acute meaning I can drop the handle a lot farther and not hit the rest. And lastly I can position the rest farther into an opening than Robust. On top of all this the Advanced are only about $5 more than Robust.

I'll check those out too and maybe get one to try. I like to know what's available and how it works.
It is odd how they don't describe the post length or at least the lathe size the 1" posts will fit.
And when I clicked on the link at the bottom of this page http://advancedlathetools.com/lathe-tool-rests/ to show me the set of small rests it doesn't.

BTW, I didn't check every price but I don't see the "only about $5 more than Robust". I compared the rest I use the most, the Robust 9", and the Advanced 9" rest is $11 more. My next favorite size, 15", is not on their price list. They do have a 16" rest at $36 more and a 14" at $16 more.

Regardless of the price, as a lot in woodturning, the usefulness of a specific tool often depends on what one turns, the size of the work, the tools used, the way one works, and the skill level. I like the Low Profile Robust rests which don't have the same geometry and clearance as their Comfort rests. They are perfect for my use and the way I work.

[Reed Gray]

In testing the rests I make, I used a hack saw and a file on the hardened drill rod. It left scuff marks, but nothing I could feel with my fingers. I don't care for the comfort rests, and would prefer a straight bar tipped to 15 to maybe 25 degrees because the curved arm does interfere if you are dropping the handle for a higher shear/slice angle. As for welding to the top of the bar or welding to a groove/recess for the bar, I don't think that there would be any structural difference. The hardened drill rod doesn't add to the strength of the system. The first ones Brent made were epoxied onto the rest, and if you dropped it, the drill rod would pop off, and was easily epoxied back on. I have used these rests for years, and would never go back to other rests. The box rests from Jimmy Allen of D Way are really nice. He used case hardened stainless steel. Small diameter bar which is fine for boxes.

robo hippy

[Steve Mathews]

A quick reply from Advanced reveals that they cut their posts for "the correct length of each lathe" therefore no mention is apparently made as to stock lengths. I plan to give one a try.

[Jason Edwards]

Too bad you ordered Robust already, I was going to suggest looking at Advanced Lathe Tools rests instead (advancedlathetools.com). Robust rests are based off Steve Sinners design. The two main differences are Advanced uses a 3/8" hardened rod where Robust uses 1/4". Advanced welds their rods into a channel where Robust welds on top (which do you think is stronger). I don't know if Advanced uses thicker steel or what but they don't have vibration issues that Robust rests can have. A couple of other advantages that I've noticed are when shear scraping with Robust the tool shaft can hit the bottom of the rest when the tool handle is dropped low. With Advanced the support angle is more acute meaning I can drop the handle a lot farther and not hit the rest. And lastly I can position the rest farther into an opening than Robust. On top of all this the Advanced are only about $5 more than Robust.

I don't see the "based on Steve Sinner's design" part at all. They look completely different and feel very different in use. Yes, they both have a hardened rod, and I think Advanced was actually first in the market, but individuals have been putting hardened rods on top of toolrests for years. I think if you ask Steve, he'll even tell you who he got the idea from. Personally, I like how my hand fits into the Robust rests and help guide the cut, but to each their own. I think they are both quality tools.

[David Gilbert]

My friends have joked that I have a complete set of Robust tool rests and I protest that I am still missing a few. Needless to say, I really like them and prefer them to the other cast iron rests that I have.

I want to comment regarding denting the hardened steel bar. Yes, I have had catches that were violent enough that I dented my Robust tool rest. My lack of skill is the real problem and fortunately I don't have a lot of them. One dent in particular was bothersome and I spent a while with my sharpening stones to smooth it out. It was easily smoothed out and is used on many of my turnings.

Cheers,
David

[John K Jordan]

...Personally, I like how my hand fits into the Robust rests and help guide the cut...

I do as well. I have some of the comfort and some of the low profile and usually prefer the low profile.

But I learned a new technique a couple of years ago. A fairly new student found a perfect use for the 15" comfort rest while turning the dish of a small dished platter. The wings make good technique especially useful and as a beginner she was just developing good tool control. Where I would normally use the 9" low profile rest for this cut, she put the 15" comfort rest across the face. Where I used my fingers and hand on the rest to guide the tool she put her forearm in the curve of the rest and made cuts across the face cleaner than some with long experience!

(I think I posted this once or twice before.)
Cutting with the small Hunter Hercules tool.

428819

Did an amazing job too. (This was her first "real" project after spindle lessons and a couple of practice bowls.)
I think this young turner is pickier than me and has an eye for the tiniest defects.

428820

JKJ

[Pat Scott]

If the Robust stem really does get in your way, you can rotate it 180 degrees and have the offset face the bowl. Then you have all the room you want to drop the handle. This won't work because the curve in the Robust would put the top of the toolrest farther away from the work.


Looked at the Advanced tool rests on line. Do they have the nice curvature for the hand to rest in that some of the Robust’s do? No they are not curved, the curve adds height. This must be one of the reasons I like Advanced since I can put the end of the rest farther into a small opening than Robust. It's easy to slide my finger along the rest.


And when I clicked on the link at the bottom of this page http://advancedlathetools.com/lathe-tool-rests/ to show me the set of small rests it doesn't.

BTW, I didn't check every price but I don't see the "only about $5 more than Robust". I compared the rest I use the most, the Robust 9", and the Advanced 9" rest is $11 more. My next favorite size, 15", is not on their price list. They do have a 16" rest at $36 more and a 14" at $16 more.

Looks like a broken link. The first Advanced rest I bought was 6", it's only $2 more than Robust 6" ($55 vs $53). The following year I bought a 9" Advanced ($70 vs $59). At the time I remember there only being a $5 or so difference (maybe it was $8?). Even at today's prices I would pay $11 more for a thicker rod and more robust (no pun intended) design. I took a class at Craft Supplies years ago and one of the students had a catch or something and the top rod on his Robust rest popped off. It was more than a "pop", you could hear it across the room. Maybe that was an early rest where Robust glued on the rod instead of weld? IDK.


As for welding to the top of the bar or welding to a groove/recess for the bar, I don't think that there would be any structural difference. The hardened drill rod doesn't add to the strength of the system. robo hippy
Sorry Reed, I disagree. Structurally there is no way a rod welded to the top of anything is going to have the same strength as a rod welded into a channel. More contact surface around the rod in a channel.


I don't see the "based on Steve Sinner's design" part at all. They look completely different and feel very different in use. Yes, they both have a hardened rod, and I think Advanced was actually first in the market, but individuals have been putting hardened rods on top of toolrests for years. I think if you ask Steve, he'll even tell you who he got the idea from. Personally, I like how my hand fits into the Robust rests and help guide the cut, but to each their own. I think they are both quality tools.
When I talked to Steve at a Symposium last year, he's the one that told me Robust was based off of the Advanced (referring to the rod). Brent and Steve used to work together or something like that and then Brent went off on his own and started the Robust company and made his own version of the rest. Steve has been making the Advanced rest for longer than Robust has, he just doesn't have the marketing that Robust has which is why some people might not have heard of Advanced.


I want to comment regarding denting the hardened steel bar. Yes, I have had catches that were violent enough that I dented my Robust tool rest. My lack of skill is the real problem and fortunately I don't have a lot of them. One dent in particular was bothersome and I spent a while with my sharpening stones to smooth it out. It was easily smoothed out and is used on many of my turnings.

Cheers,
David
I also dented my Robust rest. I used to own a 6" and 9" Robust Comfort Rest and sold both when I bought a 6" and 9" Advanced. I've heard several professional turners say they get vibration with Robust rests and not with Advanced. We had a pro demoing for our club a couple years ago and he wanted a smaller rest for what he was doing (smaller than the standard Powermatic rest). Our club has different size Robust rests and when I asked the pro what size he wanted, he reached into his bag and pulled out an Advanced rest and said "I don't need a different rest, I need a better rest".

[John K Jordan]

... and one of the students had a catch or something and the top rod on his Robust rest popped off. It was more than a "pop", you could hear it across the room. Maybe that was an early rest where Robust glued on the rod instead of weld? IDK....

That must have been the early design. I heard reports of some rods popping free from the epoxy when someone dropped the rest on the floor. All I have are welded with what looks like painted epoxy filler in the crevice between the lower quadrant of the rod and the top of the steel rest.

[Brice Rogers]

I'm wondering if Pat Scott and David Gilbert could do a small experiment and provide me some info. Could you folks who have dented a supposedly hardened drill rod do a "file test" to confirm that the drill rod is indeed hardened. I bought an A2 drill rod from McMaster Carr and found that it was fully annealed (i.e., soft as a common nail). That surprised me. It never dawned on me that I would have to heat treat supposed drill rod.

If the file just "skitters" off the rod is hard. If it digs in at all, it is less than fully hard.

[John K Jordan]

I'm wondering if Pat Scott and David Gilbert could do a small experiment and provide me some info. Could you folks who have dented a supposedly hardened drill rod do a "file test" to confirm that the drill rod is indeed hardened. I bought an A2 drill rod from McMaster Carr and found that it was fully annealed (i.e., soft as a common nail). That surprised me. It never dawned on me that I would have to heat treat supposed drill rod.

If the file just "skitters" off the rod is hard. If it digs in at all, it is less than fully hard.

I haven't dented one but I tried the file test a couple of years ago on a Robust rest and the rod was hardened.

When I buy tool steel it has been annealed. I assumed it was so I could machine it.
I usually buy from Online Metals. Their tool steel pages don't specifically say "this is annealed" but describe the properties such as dimensional stability during hardening, which to me implied the need for hardening.

JKJ

[Steve Mathews]

I'm wondering if Pat Scott and David Gilbert could do a small experiment and provide me some info. Could you folks who have dented a supposedly hardened drill rod do a "file test" to confirm that the drill rod is indeed hardened. I bought an A2 drill rod from McMaster Carr and found that it was fully annealed (i.e., soft as a common nail). That surprised me. It never dawned on me that I would have to heat treat supposed drill rod.

If the file just "skitters" off the rod is hard. If it digs in at all, it is less than fully hard.

Adding to that I wonder if the reason Robust originally epoxied rods in place instead of welding them was because of possibly annealing the hardened steel. I'm curious enough that I plan to do a hardness test on the Advanced and Robust rods when getting them.

[Richard Coers]

This won't work because the curve in the Robust would put the top of the toolrest farther away from the work.

No they are not curved, the curve adds height. This must be one of the reasons I like Advanced since I can put the end of the rest farther into a small opening than Robust. It's easy to slide my finger along the rest.
Sure it will work, just don't line up the post with the surface you are cutting. The space may not optimal, but it will work.

[Steve Mathews]

I just received the Robust and Advanced tool rests ordered a few days ago. I haven't had a chance to use any of them yet but all seem to be well made. Advanced kicked up theirs a notch by chamfering the post ends and polishing all of the bare metal surfaces, nicely done IMO. The Advanced rests are definitely heavier and have a larger diameter top round bar. I first thought the bar (not round) below and behind the top rounded edge of the Advanced rest would be cumbersome but it seems like a comfortable place to rest the forefinger. Oddly enough it doesn't seem to get in the way. I'm anxious to give all of them a workout.

[David Gilbert]

I did the file test on the tool rest drill rod. It was clearly hardened but not extremely hardened. I have used O1 tool steel to make some tools and after heat treating a file won't even scratch the steel. At that point the steel is also very brittle. I normally temper the new tool at 375 - 400 degrees F for a while. At that point it is hard enough to use and a file will scratch it but it's not brittle. When I honed out my dent, a file wouldn't work but an India sharpening stone did a fine job.

I still love my Robust tool rests.

Be safe,
David

[John Terefenko]

I too love these tool rests and have a few. My finger fits nicely in the groove. Nice and smooth and good control. I highly recommend them.

[Brice Rogers]

I took a look at the Advanced tool rest web site. I was surprised to read from their website that the bar on the top of the tool rest is "case hardened". I have case hardened a few things as an experiment. It worked. In short, you heat the low-carbon part and gaseous carbon migrates into the outer surface of the steel part. The thickness of the hardening can generally be as thick as 0.060". But that isn't terribly thick. If you get a nick, yes, use a diamond file on it. But don't remove too much material.

[Dick Strauss]

In general a larger diameter rod on a toolrest is not as good because it puts your tool pivot point that much further away from the wood.

[Steve Mathews]

Curiosity got the better of me so I tested the top rail hardness on Robust, Advanced and other tool rests. The softest of the bunch at about 40 HRC was an old serpentine shaped rest probaby made out of cast iron. The ductile iron rests by Oneway (painted white) were only slightly harder. The Oneway curved rests (stainless?) were a little harder at about 45 HRC. The Robust and Advanced rests were about 60 - 65 HRC between where the top rail was welded onto the body. Near the welds the material got noticeably softer and dropped to about 50 - 55 HRC I suspect due annealing caused by the welding heat. Perhaps that's the reason Robust chose to epoxy their top rails on initially. Don't take too much stock in my findings as I'm not that well schooled in hardness testing.

[Brice Rogers]

I'm impressed that you were able to measure Rockwell hardness.

Were you using an indentation method or a file method? Just curious.

Also, I found it very interesting the you confirmed my suspicion that the weld areas would be softer. I was wondering about that. It would be possible to re-heat treat the entire tool rest but it would be kind of a nuisance and would either need to be done in an inert oven or scale would need to be dealt with.

I bought a 3' length of A2 drill rod from McMaster Carr and was surprised that it came fully annealed (very soft). So, I'll need to heat treat it first. I am contemplating tack welding in just on the ends and then adding a fillet of epoxy or JB-weld. That way it is more likely to stay in place if I drop it.

Thanks for this interesting feedback.

[John K Jordan]

I'm impressed that you were able to measure Rockwell hardness. ...

I have often considered buying a rockwell or brinell hardness tester since I first used them in the metallography lab. Maybe someday I can find a used one.

JKJ

[Steve Mathews]

I'm impressed that you were able to measure Rockwell hardness.

Were you using an indentation method or a file method? Just curious.

Also, I found it very interesting the you confirmed my suspicion that the weld areas would be softer. I was wondering about that. It would be possible to re-heat treat the entire tool rest but it would be kind of a nuisance and would either need to be done in an inert oven or scale would need to be dealt with.

I bought a 3' length of A2 drill rod from McMaster Carr and was surprised that it came fully annealed (very soft). So, I'll need to heat treat it first. I am contemplating tack welding in just on the ends and then adding a fillet of epoxy or JB-weld. That way it is more likely to stay in place if I drop it.

Thanks for this interesting feedback.

Don't be too impressed. As mentioned before I'm no expert at this. I used the Tsubosan files to measure hardness. I don't think they're meant to be all that precise but you get a good indication or range of hardness. The top bar on the Robust and Advanced rests were noticeably softer near the welds. I also tested some of my turning tools and all of them with the exception of some very old ones didn't receive a mark with my 65 HRC file, the hardest of my set. I don't know what practical value was served in this exercise but it satisfied my curiosity.

[John K Jordan]

Don't be too impressed. As mentioned before I'm no expert at this. I used the Tsubosan files to measure hardness. I don't think they're meant to be all that precise but you get a good indication or range of hardness. The top bar on the Robust and Advanced rests were noticeably softer near the welds. I also tested some of my turning tools and all of them with the exception of some very old ones didn't receive a mark with my 65 HRC file, the hardest of my set. I don't know what practical value was served in this exercise but it satisfied my curiosity.

I never heard of those. Found a set on ebay: "TSUBOSAN Japan Hardness Tester Checker File Set Ma00600 908", $58

JKJ

[Steve Mathews]

I never heard of those. Found a set on ebay: "TSUBOSAN Japan Hardness Tester Checker File Set Ma00600 908", $58

JKJ

That's the cheapest price I've seen for the set. I finally broke down and bought one after seeing the machinist community use them. They're probably only a step above an ordinary file test but at least it gives some rough HRC numbers. They helped when in my first attempt at hardening/tempering a piece of tool steel for a forming tool.

[Reed Gray]

There are 3 types of drill rod, A for air, O for the oil, and W for the water cooled. Of the 3, the A is by far the hardest bought in raw form. In testing, I had one rod hardened on the tool rest bar, and the other the rod was hardened first, and then welded to the tool rest bar, and my welder got one end of the hardened bar 'red hot'. There was no difference in the file and hack saw test. I don't know anything about metals other than being able to grind them.... The hardening may be able to be done by a competent blacksmith. I would expect the rod not to be hardened before you get it because that would make it a lot more difficult to machine to your specs, especially if you want to bend it. Can't remember if I said this before, but on my Vicmarc tool rest, there is a bar on it, but it isn't hardened. I think the epoxy fill may make the tool rests look a little nicer, but isn't necessary. Not sure if a tack weld would be good enough to hold a piece of drill rod on if, okay, when you drop it, and of course, it will land on the end.... A short weld bead will suffice. If you have your drill rod hardened professionally, they charge by the pound.

robo hippy

[Brice Rogers]

Thanks Reed for the feedback. I have a small kiln/heat treat oven, so I'll probably heat treat it myself based on a published temperature/time schedule. But interesting that they charge by the pound. I suspect that a 1/4" or 5/16" drill rod 7" long probably only weight a fraction of a pound.

[Reed Gray]

Well for doing one or three, if you have the knowledge, doing at home makes sense. Brent does weld his to the support arm first and then heat treats them. I would guess he has his own heat processing set up rather than getting it done commercially. Doing any quantity would require a fair cost, and the rod is a lot lighter than the whole arm.

robo hippy

[Brice Rogers]

Reed, I think that when the pros heat treat that they do it in an inert atmosphere. I don't have that capability. When I heat steel up to around 1600 or so degrees, I get scale (iron oxide). So, my own ability to weld on the drill rod and then heat treat the entire assembly (post and all) is compromised. I suppose though that I could always try it. It is likely to be functional although a little ugly.