Help identifying a No 4 plane

[Mike Manning]

Well, I thought this was a Stanley Bailey No 4. I've had it for months and months. Had it in my hands more than a few times and only recently noticed that it is not marked Stanley and/or Bailey. It has "Made in USA" between the frog and the tote. "No 4" on the toe. The lever cap is from a Stanley Handyman so I don't believe it is original to the plane. The iron is a Stanley but of a more recent vintage stamped with the notched rectangle, "H1204(12-204)" and then "Made in U.S.A.". The frog is ogee shaped with no numbers to be found anywhere on the frog. Finally, the lateral adjustment lever has no "Stanley" stamped on it and it has a whale tail. Let me know if the pics don't answer any questions you might have. Knowing Union was bought by Stanley and given the whale tail lateral adjustment lever I was thinking Union but it's probably too recent. I have no idea when the last Union plane was still a purchase option. It looks and feels like a Stanley. I can't find anything like this one on the Plane Dating Flowchart on hyperkitten. Thoughts?

Thanks for any help!

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[Jason Buresh]

I can tell you based on my Stanley Handyman at home that the lever cap and iron are definitely from a handyman plane. The frog and sole appear similar to my Stanley #4 from post WW2. I would bet it's a Union made by Stanley or a Stanley that someone put a new adjuster onto.

It's definitely a frakenplane

Edit: I just looked at a picture of my Stanley from a similar time period and it is stamped Bailey between the knob and the mouth. My guess is it's a Union428686

[Jim Koepke]

Stanley made many planes of similar to this for sale through hardware and department stores.

Google (or your favorite search site) > stanley h1204 plane < to find more on this plane.

Handyman was and still is a common name for independent hardware stores.

There is a write up of the history here > https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1P4-2119885467/stanley-handyman-bench-planes-part-i-the-early-beginning

This was found with a Google search on > stanley handyman plane history <.

Some of the other sites returned in the search are BBSes similar to SMC, the TOS prohibits linking to other woodworking community BBSes.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Union was purchased by Stanley in 1920....
Frog is the 3rd version of frogs Stanley made.....lateral lever in the last photo is the twisted ones....Union did use that lever....and so did Sargent...was made before they went with that "Y" frog seat.

Thinking this is a Type 18...with a few "loaner" parts.....like the lateral lever....may have been made right before Stanley went with that "Y" seat for the frog.

Clean it up, sharpen the iron, get the chipbreaker to sit on the iron without any gaps....and put this plane back to work.

Someone thought enough of this plane, to repair it, and keep it working.....

"Don't look, just keep flying, don't look....just..fly" (from the first Superman movie, where he helps a plane to land...)

[Mike Manning]

Jim,
I will research as you've advised. I had a Stanley Handyman No 4 still in the box which I sold last year. I had that plane for probably 20 years. As I recall the quality of that plane nor any part of it were what most of us would call good. This plane feels and looks like a good old Stanley plane. In fact, the sides and sole of this plane are thick enough that I almost wonder if it was a wartime plane. Did Stanley make Handyman planes of this quality?

Thanks!
Mike

[Jim Koepke]

[eited]
Did Stanley make Handyman planes of this quality?

Thanks!
Mike

Stanley often used the same or similar stock between their lines. In the beginning of a new line this would be more common. Some of the Stanley/Bailey planes were made with the only words in the casting were "Made In U.S.A."

The flat side handles also point to the 1950s for time of manufacturing.

There is a lot of variation in the quality of Stanley made planes after WWII.

jtk

[Mike Brady]

Thats a Frankenplane. The iron and lever cap are from a Stanley Handyman and the body and wood parts are Stanley type 19 from the 60's. most likely.

[Stew Denton]

It may be a Frankenplane, but I think there is a good chance it is not. According to the history that Jim linked, Stanley started making the Handyman planes in 1953. Mike's plane has the gray lever cap, although badly faded and much of the gray paint has flaked off, that the Handyman line had. The body also looks like it may have had gray paint over black Japanning, and it looks like some of the gray is still adhering in corners, and other protected spots like around the cast in "Made in USA," on the body. They would have covered the area where the frog sets before painting it to keep paint off of the spots where the frog contacts the bed, and that area has much blacker color, just like you would expect if that is what they did.

If Stanley used existing Bailey bodies for their early Handyman planes, that would explain why it appears that it might be Japanning that was re-painted gray.

Also, the frog has the twisted type of horizontal adjuster, and Stanley did use that type of adjuster on some of the planes that they made for other companies. For example, the Keen Kutter "K" type plane was made by Stanley, and it was basically a slightly cheapened type 3 Bedrock. It had the cheaper tote and the horizontal adjuster was that exact same twisted type.

I have a Stanley #5 type 19 that I believe was made at about the same time that Mike's plane was made. My type 19 has the standard "T" type of horizontal adjuster. What I am saying here is that the frog looks like it is not off a type 19, but rather off of one of their cheaper Handyman planes. My type 19 still has the oval profile tote also, not the cheaper flat tote that this plane has.

For those reasons, I think this plane is very possibly 100% early Handyman, not a Frankenplane. It does look like it possibly has a painted over type 19 body. However, it is probably more likely to be a painted over left over type 18 body as Steven pointed out, bodies that they wanted to use up after going to the type 19 planes.

This set of thoughts is just my opinion, nothing more.

Regards,

Stew

[Stew Denton]

Mike, questions. It looks like the bed where the frog contacts the bed of the plane is milled flat. Is that the case? Also, is the bottom of the frog, where it sets against the bed also milled flat, rather than left as a rough cast iron casting?

Please advise.

Also, the quality of the planes Stanley made took a severe nose dive in the very early 60s, if it is a very early Stanley Handyman, it still may be of fairly good quality, and might make a nice user.

Stew

[steven c newman]

Hmmm..maybe, maybe not...
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This is my Stanley No. 12-004....except this was made in England. Note the "rivet" on the lateral lever. In front of the knob, there is a "No." and a "4"
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Behind the frog...LARGE Brass wheel, and the frog adjustment bolt. This was made before the "Y" frog.
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It was also a "c" model...and, in action?
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The Brits made these with a black "Bakelite" handles....colour of the base is a very dark blue.
then...a Sargent 408....
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With the sargent lateral lever...and a look at the face of it's frog....there is a circle style logo on the iron.
Stanley No. 5-1/2, type 17 ( I think..)
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It came with painted( black) hardwood handles...paint was flaky, so was removed.
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All sorts of details here...
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Works nicely, too. It does have the frog adjust bolt, there is a No. 5 -1/2 on the back deck.

Stanley Handyman planes did NOT have a frog adjust bolt....type 1 or type 2.

Whale tail laterals were from the 50s, up until 1962, when Stanley crimped the tail down.

On a Union lateral...the pivot rivet was different location

[steven c newman]

Union frogs....have had a couple through the shop...One on the right is an Ohio Tool Co. frog, note the wheel...
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Different pivot point...
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And the twisted end of the lever....

One other company that used that twisted end...Ohio Tool Co.. except theirs were twisted the other direction...

[Stew Denton]

Steven,

Is the "Whale Tail" type lateral adjuster the type Stanley used on the type 8s to type 19s or so?

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[steven c newman]

Nope. It is called a whale's tail becaused it looks just like the tail of a whale. usual lateral lever was the "2 piece" where a tab was added to the flat bar.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Steven,

It sounds like the "2 piece," which I called the "T" type is not the whales tail type. It sounds like the whales tail may be the type that is folded into a "U" shape on the end. Am I understanding this correctly? I figured Stanley went that way because it was cheaper to make.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[lowell holmes]

If you clean the plane up, black automotive enamel is good to replace japanning .

[steven c newman]

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Whale tail. :eek: IF you see one like this...walk, no, RUN away...you have be warned....

[Stew Denton]

Steven,

Thanks for the warning. I have never seen one like that, but live in an area where there is very little to find when rust hunting, so I don't even try to rust hunt very often. Almost all of my planes, but not quite all, are prior to 1930 Stanley planes and I now have most of the planes I will ever use.

Again, thanks for the warning. I now know what a whale tale adjuster is!

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Steven,

It sounds like the "2 piece," which I called the "T" type is not the whales tail type.
[edited]
Thanks and regards,

Stew

A commonly used reference to Stanley's "2 piece"* lateral lever is the "tiller", as in a boat tiller.

* The often used "2 piece" designation has always confused me since only the type 5 lateral lever was truly a 2 piece construction. The typical lateral lever after type 5 also had a disk and a rivet to make it a 4 piece construction. Maybe my history in manufacturing stock rooms and assembly lines has biased my thinking about how parts of a unit come together.

jtk