Paralellogram VS. Wedge Bed Jointers

[Rob Will]

Which would you pick and why?
Both are Tiawan Imports.

Oliver 4270 16" Jointer.
Wedge bed. 7.5 hp, 102" bed 1750 lbs.

or

Powermatic PJ1696 16" Jointer.
Paralellogram. 7.5 hp, 96" bed 1280 lbs.

[Jay T. Marlin]

Neither....

www.extremausa.com (http://www.extremausa.com)

$4200 for the 16" model.

You can get it in single phase I think.

[Rob Will]

The Extrema looks interesting.....let's add a few choices.
Which jointer would you choose and why?

Oliver 4270 16" Jointer.
(helical cutterhead) ($6100)
Wedge bed. 7.5 hp, 102" bed 1750 lbs.

or

Powermatic PJ1696 16" Jointer.
(helical cutterhead) ($5500)
Paralellogram. 7.5 hp, 96" bed 1280 lbs.

or

Extrema EJ-16 16" Jointer
(helical cutterhead) (price ?)
Paralellogram, 5 hp, 100" bed (weight?)

or

Grizzly G9953GXF 16" Jointer
(helical cutterhead) ($5295)
Paralellogram, 5 hp, 99" bed, 1700 lbs.

or

Mini Max Formula F1 16" Jointer
(Tersa cutterhead) ($7995)
Paralellogram, 6.6 hp, 104" bed, 1700 lbs.<!-- / message -->

[Brian Hale]

You might check out the one from Wilke.....

http://www.wilkemachinery.com/default.tpl?action=full&cart=1135426648312060&id1=7&--woSECTIONSdatarq=7&--SECTIONSword=ww&--eqskudatarq=2356

$3995 for the bladed model and $4795 with true sprial cutterhead.

Brian :)

[Rob Will]

Oliver 4270 16" Jointer.
(helical cutterhead) ($6100)
Wedge bed. 7.5 hp, 102" bed 1750 lbs.

or

Powermatic PJ1696 16" Jointer.
(helical cutterhead) ($5500)
Paralellogram. 7.5 hp, 96" bed 1280 lbs.

or

Extrema EJ-16 16" Jointer
(helical cutterhead) (price ?)
Paralellogram, 5 hp, 100" bed (weight?)

or

Grizzly G9953GXF 16" Jointer
(helical cutterhead) ($5295)
Paralellogram, 5 hp, 99" bed, 1700 lbs.

or

Mini Max Formula F1 16" Jointer
(Tersa cutterhead) ($7995)
Paralellogram, 6.6 hp, 104" bed, 1700 lbs.

or

Bridgewood BW-16JS 16" Jointer
(Helical cutterhead) ($4795)
Paralellogram, 7.5 hp, 98" bed, (weight?)

[Brian Hale]

The Bridgewood weight is 1415 lbs (net). It's listed next to the price :)

Brian :)

[Paul B. Cresti]

Not a real comparison. The MiniMax F1 is high quality production jointer the other ones are nothing more than Asian import clones. The Asian importants are there to meet a price point the F1 is not. If you want to really compare European jointers also include SCM, Griggio, SAC, Caselin, Martin, Felder..... As I have said to others do not compare Asian imports to these types of machines they are in a completely different class. If you want to look at any other currently produced machinery for comparison sake then look at Northfield.

[Richard Wolf]

If you are interest in the Mini Max F1 which is a great jointer, it is on sale for $7000 dollars until the end of the year or they have a few that came in with the standard head, not the tersa, for $5,500. You could upgrade the head later. I know everyone loves the "new" high proformance heads, but these machine work great with the standard head and $1500 goes along way toward the next machine on your list.

Richard

[Jim Becker]

Just to address one part of the original question, the parallelogram design is supposed to keep the edge of the infeed table exactly the same distance from the cutters no matter what the depth of cut setting. Theoretically, that could result in more consistant performance, although I also suspect that most people wouldn't notice it very much since we all tend to set the thing at 1/32" or whatever and leave it there! (My MM FS 350 jointer/planer is a parallelogram design)

I do think that the advanced cutter heads make a difference is many ways; some for how well they handle "knarly" stock and others, like the Tersa, which give a good cut and are a snap to change...no resetting. But Richard does make a good point about saving a few bucks if that helps you get into a stronger machine.

I will also say that jointers are relatively simple machines, so the point of origin is less important...that's a personal preference item.

[Dev Emch]

Somebody has to do this. If I had to buy a new jointer and I was looking for the top of the heap interms of quality above and beyond that packaged in the two jointers mentioned, there would be no doubt which jointer I would pursue.

The infamous MARTIN T-54.

[Rob Will]

Jim,
I suppose I'm hi-jacking my own thread here.....
When it comes to insert heads, do the square cut inserts work as well as those with some shearing action?
Rob

[Jim Becker]

When it comes to insert heads, do the square cut inserts work as well as those with some shearing action?

Hmmm...I can only speculate since I don't have any experience with the insert heads. Shearing is a good thing. But sharp cutters are a big part of the battle, so I suspect it matters what kind of material you are working if you will see a difference. That "knarly stuff" I've mentioned certainly benefits from any kind of shearing cut you can muster, including putting it though on an angle. (Wider jointers make that easer, too... ;) ) For straight, regular stock...less of an advantage. The Tersa knives on my MM J/P give a really nice cut and they are aligned straight across the machine. I do tend to angle things when I can for an even better finish, especially when there is some "action" in the figure.

[Dev Emch]

Jim,
I suppose I'm hi-jacking my own thread here.....
When it comes to insert heads, do the square cut inserts work as well as those with some shearing action?
Rob

Another thing to consider is back bevelling the knives. David Marks does this on his huge American jointer with excellent results.

[John Scane]

Rob,
I got your private message and replied with a lengthy answer to your question only to find out that your not set up to accept private messages. I basically said I liked the Oliver Jointer that I have but have no experience with the parallelogram jointers. I also like the spiral cutterhead and it gives a really nice srface when the blades are new.

[Jay T. Marlin]

Not a real comparison. The MiniMax F1 is high quality production jointer the other ones are nothing more than Asian import clones. The Asian importants are there to meet a price point the F1 is not. If you want to really compare European jointers also include SCM, Griggio, SAC, Caselin, Martin, Felder..... As I have said to others do not compare Asian imports to these types of machines they are in a completely different class. If you want to look at any other currently produced machinery for comparison sake then look at Northfield.
Have you ever used a 16" asian import jointer? Ignore the cheesey blade guard and give me a good reason why you think the European machines are such superior machines.

[Dev Emch]

If you really wish to begin comparing features and design excellence, then you need to turn the pages of history back and create an itemized list to work from. Lets begin.

1). Tables must be dead flat. Prefer planed tables in place of ground tables.

2). Cutter head super precision balanced to 6500 RPM. Cutter head suspended in ABEC class 7 or 9 super precision, oil bath ball bearings.

3). All high speed turnings such as the cutter head, gibs, motor arbors, etc. shall be made from either Rc-40 4140 chrome-molly or LaSalle 1144 Stressproof steel.

4). If wedgebed design, wedges shall be suspended in precision scraped and fully gibbed dovetail ways.

5). If parallogram design, suspension links will be suspended in precision, sealed needle bearings.

6). All support shafts shall be suspended in sealed needle bearings or machined and press fit bronze bushings.

7). Electrics shall be speced to NEMA standards. Prefered vendor shall be Allen Bradley. If jointer of foreign sourcing, equal functionality shall be provided by high quality IEC DIN rail mounted electrics by Siemmens or Sprecher-Shuh. All electrics shall be rated with UL, CSA or the german approvals.

8). All cast iron shall be poured from Meehanite alloy and seasoned accordingly. The casting shall be machined in two steps to releive internal stresses. Once complete, the jointer shall be free of any warpage for a period of 10 years. Should any warpage occur, the warped item will be replaced without incident.

9). The cutter head yoke shall be attached such that it can be adjusted using a micrometer retaining bolt. This shall allow the cylinder to be adjusted with dial indicators to run parallel to the outfeed table. The adjustment bolt shall allow for both upwards and downwards motion and shold be front located if possible. The rear mounted pivots shall allow the yoke to pivot without excessive slop. Lastly, the yoke shall provide some form of dust and chip channeling into a dust collection system to vector dust and chips away from the cutter head and its bearings.

10). The infeed table shall be equiped with a force multiplying raising system to insure easy up and down movement. Table position shall be clearly indicated on a position indicator. The table shall allow for convex and concave adjustment that is both quick and repeatable. This facillates the cutting of spring joints and also allows the infeed table to be adjusted into long axis parallel with the outfeed table. Both the infeed and outfeed table shall be attached to the jointer body such that these can be shimmed if needed to compensate for minor errors. Shimming of the actual dovetail ways used on a wedgebed, if so equiped, shall not be allowed.

11). The guard system must protect the user from accidental contact with the cutter head. But it must also be quickly removeable to allow the user to work on the cutter head. European jointers shall come equiped with the suvamatic guard.

12). If the jointer is of the parallogram design, the design shall incorporate hardware to allow for the quick and repeatable setting of convex and concave cuts.

13). Certain strategic parts that are not vertical to the jointer shall be sourced from multiple, local sources. This includes but is not limited to cutter head bearings, cutter head knives, motor control electrics, bearing lubrication, etc.

14). The body shall be built from either cast iron or composite steel and concrete. In either case, vibration transmission shall be no higher than that of cast iron. Steel and concrete composite construction has 6 times the vibration deadening ability as does cast iron. Ringing that is typical of sheet metal body construction is both anoying and leads to noise pollution or excessive decibel emissions. This cannot exceed the maximum allowable emissions by OSHA.

The following list of items provides you with some food for thought. This particular list of items was taken from my 1960 vintage Porter jointer made in Grand Rapids, MI. It is also equally applicable to the Martin T-54. Also, with some exceptions, the oliver jointers match this list as do the newman 60 jointers. Many european jointers are also compliant because of the very strict rules pertaining to these types of machines. Jointers such as the oliver #12 actually have other attributes not listed in this list but are not able to meet the requirements for say convex and concave setups. But the #12 has a nicer force multiplying system for lifting the tables and it can draft the infeed table which most jointers cannot do. The newman also has an excellent force multiplier system for lifting infeed tables.

Now, take this list of items and begin asking your local sales representative about these items and how the prespective jointer your interested in meets these. I doubt most of the asian jointers would even come close. So its a lot more than taking off a cheesy plastic blade guard to make a comparision.

This is why its so darn important to know the birthing details of your jointer! If the vendor does not release information regarding where the machine was made, who made it and what internal details pertain to its manufacture, alarms should be going off and you should walk. The europeans as a group are pretty darn good here and, in fact, they are actually pretty proud of what they created. They also seam to have a contest as to which european machine can outdo the other one. So help here is easy to get from the european dudes. Do you have a right to know all this? Hey, its your hard earned money were spending. What do you think?

[Rob Will]

Dev,
If I take that list to Woodcraft at the mall, will they throw me out?
Just kidding.....I have a lot to learn about this.
Thanks!
Rob

[Dev Emch]

Probably. But everyone talks the talk and now here is a chance to walk the the walk. What do all the import machines have to be afraid of? Its just a bit of fair competion against some old antique machines. Oh yah, one place where they win most of the time is in the fresh paint department. Often the older machines have the worst paint you have ever seen esp. when each new intern had to slobber on the gray paint with a floor broom.

[Joe Grout]

Have you ever used a 16" asian import jointer? Ignore the cheesey blade guard and give me a good reason why you think the European machines are such superior machines.

like the parallelogam set tables that take a two wrenches to adjust IF you ever have to do it to begin with.

Or maybe the absolute balance of the heads, not to mention the speedy knife changes that require one allen wrench to complete?

I agree with the poster that the euros are in a class of their own, guards notwithstanding.

Joe

[Rob Will]

Dev,
That's a good point about comparing apples to apples and "walk the walk"......so here goes the worst hi-jack that has ever been......

My wife and I were just talking about the US auto industry and the need to lead the way into alternative fuels and hybrids. If we are not putting our all into this the Japanese mfgs. will be glad to take the market from the big three. Hence the auto industry ends up like the woodworking industry.......we can't afford to buy our own new machines.

As an American farmer, I hope all of you guys run Ethanol and Biodiesel whenever you can. Sorry for the hi-jack but I did at least compare this to WW...!

Rob