Router or shaper

[Gary Markham]

Background. I have an older hitachi m12v router in my table. Speed control went out so I renpmoved it and added a hf speed control it works ok. Looses some speed once you engage the Wood. Wife thinks it’s a lot louder now than before. Maybe it is a little. Dont know why. Anyway at her request we have been upgrading to quieter tools. Spiral heads on jointer and planer still have all big stuff hammer k3, 20” planer, 8” jointer, bandsaw so not downsizing

questions. I use the router for edge profile and raised panel doors. Is triton route quieter than the old hitachi. Will the grizz g1035 shaper 1 1/2hp run an ogee raised planner cutter with a 1 1/2 reveal 3 passes would be ok (what I do now on the router). Is a shaper really any quieter. Should I hold out for a larger shaper

thanks in advance
Gary

[Mike Kees]

Shapers are way quieter than routers. I do not have any experience with a shaper smaller than 3 h.p. so can not comment on how they would work. What I can tell you is how fast I outgrew my three horse shaper when I began to use it with real shaper tooling versus router bits.(about 6 months) It is hard to say what would work for you without knowing what you want the machine to accomplish and how much room for future growth you want in a machine. I would not go smaller than 3 h.p. period. The world of shapers is a slippery slope,tooling will eventually cost more than the machine. You will also want a power feeder to' complete the machine'. Power feeders make a shaper far safer and add a level of precision with constant and consistent feed rates.

[brent stanley]

Not only will a shaper be quieter, it will also be a lot less dusty, a lot more versatile and more enjoyable to use. Tooling doesn't have to be expensive as a euroblock with replaceable HSS knives is quite inexpensive and will do a lot of basic profiling.

B

[Mike Cutler]

It's a question that gets asked many times, and the answer always comes down to, it depends.
Do you do a lot of edge work and raised panels? If you're doing more than just the occasional home project, a shaper might make better sense.
A shaper brings a different level of abilities to the game for a myriad of tasks, and can make some projects quite a bit easier for a person working alone.
Take for example a large panel build, like a table top. With a shaper and quality jointing cutter set, like a T&G, or reversible glue joint, those individual board will self align to within thousandths.
Yes I know that you can cut T&G's on a table saw, or with a router, or just do an edge glueup, but all of that nonsense about wrestling with boards, whacking seams together for alignment, pulling the panel into flat with cauls, and stressing about glue time is gone. No starting with 80 grit to "knock down the seams". No smoothing planes. None of that after the glueup work.The joints match perfectly.
A shaper also allows you to stack both the cope, and stick cutters on the spindle, and have enough height above the table that both operations can be done without changing cutters, or changing cutter height.It takes a little bit of setup, but it's not hard. This cannot be done with a router. You have to complete one operation, then break it down and set everything up for the second operation.
3HP is the minimum in my opinion also. Not that something smaller won't do a good job, 3HP just gives you enough "beef" to do it in one pass if you elect to.
I have an older Delta 43-375, 3HP shaper. Nothing special, nothing exotic, just a spindle through a table. It works just fine. If I were to mount my Festool OF2200 in a table, it would be a very poor substitute for my shaper.
I have a 1/2 HP power feeder mounted to my shaper. I did not use a power feeder for many years, but now that I have one, I really like it.

To be fair to table mounted routers though, a lot of energy and innovation has gone into tables, fences, and lifts for table mounted routers. There is some really nice aftermarket setups for router. Really nice! The same is not true with shapers. There are better aftermarket fences, but they can be very expensive. Most factory OEM fences on light shapers, 3HP and below, usually require a little bit of ingenuity and work to make them "better". I use a back fence, now that I have a power feeder, so it's not a significant issue for me. I rarely use my OEM fence now. It just provides for dust collection most of the time.

As I said in the begining. It depends.

[Jared Sankovich]

Get the Shaper*
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*this forum has possibly the highest density of shapers to members (woodweb excluded)

[Jim Dwight]

I haven't heard a quiet router. You can cope and stick on a router without changing bits, however. One of my sets is stacked and all it takes is a height adjustment between cuts. That could be eliminated by a plywood "shim" for the first cut, removed for the second.

[Rod Sheridan]

Definitely get the shaper, quiet, powerful, accurate.

Add a power feeder, maybe tilting spindle and a sliding table....Rod

[jack duren]

Background. I have an older hitachi m12v router in my table. Speed control went out so I renpmoved it and added a hf speed control it works ok. Looses some speed once you engage the Wood. Wife thinks it’s a lot louder now than before. Maybe it is a little. Dont know why. Anyway at her request we have been upgrading to quieter tools. Spiral heads on jointer and planer still have all big stuff hammer k3, 20” planer, 8” jointer, bandsaw so not downsizing

questions. I use the router for edge profile and raised panel doors. Is triton route quieter than the old hitachi. Will the grizz g1035 shaper 1 1/2hp run an ogee raised planner cutter with a 1 1/2 reveal 3 passes would be ok (what I do now on the router). Is a shaper really any quieter. Should I hold out for a larger shaper

thanks in advance
Gary

Are you doing enough rsised panel doors to make it worth the change?

[joseph f merz]

regarding the triton .i have several different routers set-up for a table mount .one is the midsize triton . the lift mechanism broke several times so i upgraded it with a Router raizer . i use the router for smaller bits only .has slight deflection under load .let the smoke out once . would not use it for raised panels . that being said many people claim they are wonderful ,i think the cost was great ,there is a reason others cost more .

[Jared Sankovich]

G1035

https://youtu.be/iK2GLxLUE5E

[Warren Lake]

routers get louder with use and louder still with hard use. Havent read anything positive about the brand you mentioned. I had a ton of blue stuff and switched to porter cable. Better if it was the old Rockwell stuff.

They are different tools and can do different things. I have shapers and would never be without routers. They can do stuff a shaper cant and vise versa. Id do everything I could to not make a raised panel on a router table. Even my first shaper wasnt up to that task.

[Andy D Jones]

Since you said the router got louder when you started using the external variable speed; I'd bet the Pulse Width Modulation frequency on the new variable speed controller is lower, and well within the audible range. It may also be resonating with the router itself, amplifying the noise (and not doing the router any good either).

Universal motors (the kinds found on most portable power tools and jobsite table saws) are also inherently much louder than induction motors with comparable power, found on heavy duty machines like cabinet saws and shapers.

- Andy -- Arlington TX

[Larry Frank]

Once upon a time, I looked at this and went with a PC 7518. One thing I looked at was the relative cost of cutters. If I was doing higher production, I would opt for a shaper.

[Alex Zeller]

I have a 3hp shaper and I don't know if I would get one with less HP unless I was just going to use it with router bits. One of the few things I see used (at least around here) are shapers. To me the whole point of a shaper is to use the larger tooling only they can handle. If you make lots of raised panels then you can justify the cost. If you just like tools and don't care about justifying the cost then they are also nice. Of course they take up room and I personally wouldn't just dip my toe in the water and get one that's under powered.

[Jim Becker]

If you pursue the many dozens of threads on this exact same subject from over the years, there are a few clear things that can be ascertained:

1) Router Tables and Shapers are both great tools
2) Router Tables and Shapers do similar work...in general
3) Router Tables and Shapers each have things they do better than the other with overlap "in the middle"; neither is a full substitute for the other
4) The jobs you want to do and the tooling you want to use will greatly affect which is the better choice for you (size and speed, etc)
5) Some folks need both for the work they want/need to do

I've never owned a shaper and generally don't do work that would require the larger tooling and duty cycle they provide, but if I had one, I'd find a way to use it. But I'd not give up my router table if a shaper fell in my lap...err...onto my shop floor. For my purposes, they are different tools for different situations.

[Jared Sankovich]

But I'd not give up my router table if a shaper fell in my lap...err...onto my shop floor. For my purposes, they are different tools for different situations.

I wouldn't give up handheld routers, but I dumped my router table (still have the 7518 in a jessem mast-r-lift II sitting on a shelf).

I just didn't use it.

[Mike Kees]

I am with Jared on this one. To me this is kind of like comparing a' true 'sliding table saw to a contractors saw with a sliding crosscut box. Yes they both do similar work,but one does so much more,with half the effort.

[Jim Becker]

I am with Jared on this one. To me this is kind of like comparing a' true 'sliding table saw to a contractors saw with a sliding crosscut box. Yes they both do similar work,but one does so much more,with half the effort.

That's true but....it's still not necessarily the best tool for some tasks. It's greatest strengths are also its weakness for some operations. That's why I commented that some folks need both.

[Jared Sankovich]

That's true but....it's still not necessarily the best tool for some tasks. It's greatest strengths are also its weakness for some operations. That's why I commented that some folks need both.

Jim,

Other than setup time and cost of accessories there isn't anything I can think of where the router (in a table) is a better option than a shaper. I would be curious to hear where you feel the benefits are. Not trying to argue just curious about other perspectives I may be missing.

[Jim Becker]

Small work with small cutters that need to turn at high RPM to cut with the optimal chip load comes to mind. Most shapers don't fit well for that. Many have adapters that can provide collet service to physically mount the small cutters, but the RPM doesn't get up there. Shapers were designed for larger tooling and their available speeds are limited to safely support that.

[brent stanley]

I very rarely use my table mounted router these days, but when I have it's been for stopped dados where I don't want the long ramp that is left by larger diameter groovers in the shaper, or stopped grooves in the middle of a larger panel.. If I've used it for anything else in the past 10 years, I can't remember!

[Warren Lake]

a shaper cant do tight radius work, Ive done tons of work with routers that a shaper could not do.



A router with a big bit can allow you to hand climb cut as you control the tool and the material removal. Its not beginner stuff. Ive done bullnose work on large tables that was best to bullnose after all glued up. Climb cutting for any of us with time on routers will be safe hand held but we could not do that in a table.

There are two examples of how a shaper cant touch a router.

[brent stanley]

Yes, small diameter template or bearing guided work...that's a good one.


a shaper cant do tight radius work, Ive done tons of work with routers that a shaper could not do.



A router with a big bit can allow you to hand climb cut as you control the tool and the material removal. Its not beginner stuff. Ive done bullnose work on large tables that was best to bullnose after all glued up. Climb cutting for any of us with time on routers will be safe hand held but we could not do that in a table.

There are two examples of how a shaper cant touch a router.

[Mike Kees]

Hey Jim ,I am not trying to argue about this either. My experience has been that after I started using my shapers that the router table days were over. Router tables are a useful and viable option for a lot of people. I see them as capable of doing most of the same type of work in smaller profiles. When I had nothing but a router table I built a set of cabinet doors on my router table. At that time I was very pleased to be able to accomplish this task. Now when I do the same thing with a shaper in 1/4 of the time I realize what I was missing. With that said ,I am in a whole different place now than I was 15 years ago. That first set of cabinets was in a rental property,now I am building them for clients.

[Jim Becker]

"What you do" is really important in this, Mike. It sounds like your work benefits from and is covered by a shaper. I've only been suggesting that neither a router table nor a shaper can go "all the way 100% of the time"...the actual work being accomplished matters.

[Rick Potter]

I have had a 1 1/2 HP Delta shaper for the last 20 years, along with router tables. I run router bits for raised panels in it most of the time. To answer your question, yes it does fine on raised panels, using either shaper or router bits. As you mentioned, I do them in three passes, mainly to avoid chip out on the edges of red oak. The third pass is a skim cut which also eliminates any burning.

I use a router type fence on the shaper, and much prefer it for the flexibility it offers.

Most of the time I use the router table, but for the larger bits I go to the shaper.

The only thing I have been unhappy about when using the shaper, is when running small roundovers and the like in pine. It is not as clean a cut as the faster turning router table.

My use is entirely hobby and DIY.

There is no such thing as a quiet router.

[Mike Cutler]

What am I missing about the tight radius template work on a shaper??
I absolutely promise that a router collet adapter in a shaper table works very well.
I've never gone less than 1/2" diameter myself, but a Whiteside, 1/2" spiral router, bit with bearings will work just.
Nice thing is that you only need one template side. When you start to run into the grain, reverse the motor, change direction,or climb cut that section. Once out of it, flip the switch, and continue as normal.
:confused:

[Jim Becker]

Mike, a router collet adapter does work well for being able to run router bits in a shaper. But when you get into the area of how a given piece of tooling is setup for optimal cutting performance, shapers cannot spin small router bits up to the RPM level that they should be running by chip load calculations, etc. That can result in extra burning, etc., because too small of a chip load results in more retained heat than desired. The key words in my second sentence are "optimal cutting performance". They will absolutely work and the result may be acceptable, however. There may also be a noticable difference if the same bit is used in a router table for the same kind of cut on similar material and compared to a piece worked on the shaper with a router bit. It really depends upon the work being, um...worked. :)

[brent stanley]

What am I missing about the tight radius template work on a shaper??
I absolutely promise that a router collet adapter in a shaper table works very well.
I've never gone less than 1/2" diameter myself, but a Whiteside, 1/2" spiral router, bit with bearings will work just.
Nice thing is that you only need one template side. When you start to run into the grain, reverse the motor, change direction,or climb cut that section. Once out of it, flip the switch, and continue as normal.
:confused:

It's my experience that in the real world, router bits work better in a shaper than the theory would have you believe, however I also haven't gone smaller than 1/2" in my shaper which runs up to 9000rpm. I expect things would suffer if you tried to do 1/8" cuts at 6000 rpm or keyhole cutters etc.

[Joe Jensen]

Once you use a shaper with a power feeder you will try to use that over a router table every single time. Sure there are cuts you can't do on a shaper so you need a router. I've been a serious hobbiest for over 40 years. I have never owned a proper router table. When I started in the 1970s Router tables we basically a cheap table that held a 1HP router inverted. We bought an old Craftsman 1HP 1/2" spindle shaper and it ran circles around routers of that day and age. I do have a router plate from Woodpecker or some place that holds 2 HP router. I have not used it since I got a Felder saw/shaper that can spin it's router spindle up to 19,000 RPM.

Why I prefer using the shaper and in my not so humble opinion a power feeder is a must;
1) so quiet
2) Power feeder makes cuts nearly perfect
3) larger cutter diameter creates way less chipout. With the larger diameter cutters and the power feeder I rarely have to sand profiles. Just the end grain

Downsides
1) As is always mentioned, cost. You can buy a used shaper and power feeder for about what a premium router table costs but the cutters are way more. I have lots of cove and roundover cutters, All purchased on ebay. I've spend maybe $50-60 for one. A premium router bit the same size is maybe $19.

[brent stanley]

Once you use a shaper with a power feeder you will try to use that over a router table every single time. Sure there are cuts you can't do on a shaper so you need a router. I've been a serious hobbiest for over 40 years. I have never owned a proper router table. When I started in the 1970s Router tables we basically a cheap table that held a 1HP router inverted. We bought an old Craftsman 1HP 1/2" spindle shaper and it ran circles around routers of that day and age. I do have a router plate from Woodpecker or some place that holds 2 HP router. I have not used it since I got a Felder saw/shaper that can spin it's router spindle up to 19,000 RPM.

Why I prefer using the shaper and in my not so humble opinion a power feeder is a must;
1) so quiet
2) Power feeder makes cuts nearly perfect
3) larger cutter diameter creates way less chipout. With the larger diameter cutters and the power feeder I rarely have to sand profiles. Just the end grain

Downsides
1) As is always mentioned, cost. You can buy a used shaper and power feeder for about what a premium router table costs but the cutters are way more. I have lots of cove and roundover cutters, All purchased on ebay. I've spend maybe $50-60 for one. A premium router bit the same size is maybe $19.

Buy yourself a euroblock to take replaceable knives and the cost equation changes in a hurry for shaper tooling. Here's an example of four roundover radii on one knife for $16.50.

https://onlinesupply.ca/Drilling-Cutting/shaper-cutters/multi-profile-cutters-shaper-cutters/-022-KNIVES-FOR-MPC-CUTTER-40mm-2pcs-3302240

[Jared Sankovich]

Buy yourself a euroblock to take replaceable knives and the cost equation changes in a hurry for shaper tooling. Here's an example of four roundover radii on one knife for $16.50.

https://onlinesupply.ca/Drilling-Cutting/shaper-cutters/multi-profile-cutters-shaper-cutters/-022-KNIVES-FOR-MPC-CUTTER-40mm-2pcs-3302240

These used to be $14 regular price from Amazon, with many/most $4 to $7 when on sale
428801

[Rick Potter]

I am still back on that "reverse the motor" when using a router bit in a shaper.

My router bits will not fit upside down in my shaper, like the shaper cutters do. Maybe I am using the wrong brand:rolleyes:.

[Warren Lake]

Here my thoughts Mike,

You stop a machine to reverse is mickey mouse if you are running for 2-4 hours at a time which I did. No chance id start and stop a machine 50-100 times or more to run stuff.

You reverse your machine, does your cutter reverse itself as well?

A router bit in a shaper is still router. Its now a 1,300 lb router table. The mass is good, the speed is less than half what the bit should run at. One machine I looked at was an inverted pin router, Onsrud inverted pin router. Router tooling, they call it a router.

The shapers here Grrigio SCM and Poitras non of them take a router bit. The 100 plus auctions I saw one shaper that took a router bit the Felder at B and G and I dont know if they had a collet. Point is 98 percent of the shapers out there dont take router bits. Maybe the new nippon Gacci stuff and high end like Martin have that. Two of my machines are original owner and have all the parts available at the time. No router collets.

Climb cutting on your router table that will go fine till you find one of your parts in your neighbours back yard. Most important I hand held to do template work because that is total control, you climb cut all day long with a router in your hand, not vise versa.

[Mike Cutler]

Here my thoughts Mike,

You stop a machine to reverse is mickey mouse if you are running for 2-4 hours at a time which I did. No chance id start and stop a machine 50-100 times or more to run stuff.

You reverse your machine, does your cutter reverse itself as well?

A router bit in a shaper is still router. Its now a 1,300 lb router table. The mass is good, the speed is less than half what the bit should run at. One machine I looked at was an inverted pin router, Onsrud inverted pin router. Router tooling, they call it a router.

The shapers here Grrigio SCM and Poitras non of them take a router bit. The 100 plus auctions I saw one shaper that took a router bit the Felder at B and G and I dont know if they had a collet. Point is 98 percent of the shapers out there dont take router bits. Maybe the new nippon Gacci stuff and high end like Martin have that. Two of my machines are original owner and have all the parts available at the time. No router collets.

Climb cutting on your router table that will go fine till you find one of your parts in your neighbours back yard. Most important I hand held to do template work because that is total control, you climb cut all day long with a router in your hand, not vise versa.

Warren
I think were approaching things fro a differing perspective.
I did mix up some thoughts on reversing. I was trying to emphasize the ability to reverse cutter direction, shaper cutters versus router bits, and climb cutting with a router bit, and screwed that sentence up. A router bit spinning in reverse on a shaper will not work at all, no matter what. I apologize for that mis-statement.
I've done a lot of climb cutting with router bits in a router table, router bits in a shaper table, and shaper cutters in a shaper table. Is it nerve wracking? it can be. Can it be done safely? Yes, I believe so.
I actually purchased a Festool OF 2200 just to be able use larger cutters in a handheld, template, application, as you have pointed out, so I do understand your point.
I've not yet spent 2-4 hours doing continuous climb cutting. That's a lot of time with a router in your hand, not matter which direction you're moving it.
The point I was trying to make is that people somehow have been led to believe that a router bit will not work in a shaper table, accepting of course that the shaper is capable of adapting to a router bit, and I have not found that to be a 100% true statement. Are there limits? Certainly there are limits, but it's not black and white.
Both machines are extremely versatile and adaptable. It's pretty much up to the ingenuity of the user to maximize that versatility, and adaptability.

[Alex Zeller]

People need to remember, the OP was asking about Grizzly's 1.5hp baby shaper. It weighs a little over 200lbs. It has an optional cast iron wing that you can get for it. It's not some huge behemoth that weighs a ton or has a massive table to hold the work. It will never be a serious shaper for large cutters. With a top speed of 10k it'll never handle the smaller router bits as well as a router mounted in a table saw extension. I think it would do well with raised panel router bits (and the like) and maybe some smaller 3/4" cutters. I'm sure if only used occasionally it'll do more than it was designed for. For me personally, I can't see any need for it. However for the OP it could fit nicely into his shop.

[Gary Markham]

Thanks for all the great feedback. Lots of very good comments and it really help to gain understanding. If I do add a shaper I want to skip the multi step process I have done on my other main tools. 3 stages or table saws, jointers and router tables, 2 stages of bandsaw and planer. I think the 1 1/2 may do what I do today but I don’t think it will allow much growth. Anyway with today’s world any additions will need to wait for my job to stabilize again. One thing I am sure off (for now) is along as the hitachi router is working there is no good reason to replace it with the triton. Right now I will dream of a 3 hp shaper
thanks again
gary