Problems with Edging Around Tabletop

[Eddie Ormerod]

I made this table for a customer about 8 months ago. Sorry for the sideways pic.
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She told me this happened on the corner. The top is 3/4" thick but I put an 2" wide edge around the whole edge..I assume this happened because the wood contracted.
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She wanted a thick top like this.
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How do I go about making her table to look thick like this one? I can't find 2" thick wood around here to make a complete top. And if this pic has a false wider edge, is it not moving because the slats in the table don't appear to be glued together like the one I made? I see lines in this top where the boards might be butted together but obviously in my table, the whole top is glued.
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I need some advice because I've made several tables like this and I'm worried I might need to make them over. Nobody else has called me yet.

Thanks

Eddie

[Andrew Hughes]

Mix up some stain bring a artist brush to touch up the spot. Hopefully the table hasn’t cracked,bowed or lifted up on one corner.
You can find thicker kiln dried wood at any decent lumber yard. Not so much at the borg.

[Kevin Jenness]

Solid wood expands and contracts across the grain with changes in relative humidity. You seem to have attached the end cap in a way that allows the field to move, and that is good and natural. Explain this to the client, touch up the bald spot and move on. If you had attached the cap so that the field could not move you would have had splits, probably at the glue joints, impossible to fix permanently.

If you want a solid top that remains flush with the end cap you will have to use unglued tongue and groove joints on the central boards. Otherwise. wrap a veneered top or source thicker lumber and dispense with the end cap.

This would be a good, dare I say essential, investment.

https://www.tauntonstore.com/understanding-wood-2nd-edition.html

[Eddie Ormerod]

I told her I will make her a new top. I noticed the whole top had a bow across the width.
I used glue and brads to attach the false edge.
I'm just worried this is going to happen to other tables I make.
And I do like the tongue and groove idea.

[Kevin Jenness]

Yes, the other tops will probably show the same behavior. If you go with t&g planks and an end cap I would suggest using a stopped spline glued at the center of the plank ends, dominos, biscuits or similar.

[Mel Fulks]

Agree with all. Only thing I can add to educate her is "Mam , ALL the railroad trestles are like that" I don't understand
how some of the people who want rustic stuff can be so picky.

[Mark Bolton]

I told her I will make her a new top. I noticed the whole top had a bow across the width.
I used glue and brads to attach the false edge.
I'm just worried this is going to happen to other tables I make.
And I do like the tongue and groove idea.

Youve unfortunately broken the most basic rules of wood construction and yes, you will likely lose any other furniture you have built this way. Time to start reading, learning, before you start selling.

[John TenEyck]

Besides Hoadley's excellent book you also should study a couple of furniture construction books. There's no need to painfully relearn what furniture makers before you already figured out. Go to school on them and save yourself from more failures. And there are lots of knowledgeable folks here who will gladly offer help, too, before you build something you're not sure about.


John

[Frederick Skelly]

I told her I will make her a new top. I noticed the whole top had a bow across the width.
I used glue and brads to attach the false edge.
I'm just worried this is going to happen to other tables I make.
And I do like the tongue and groove idea.

Eddie,
I think your question is hard to explain briefly. I agree that some of the books recommended would be a good idea for anyone to read over and that they will help you too. But short term, why not google "how to make a flat wood table top"? I did and saw several videos come up.

(Like anything else, some videos appeared to be made by knowledgeable people and some appeared to be made by hacks. So look at several for common tips and methods - dont just grab what looks easiest or fastest.)

Good luck man.
Fred

[Bruce Wrenn]

In making a top like that, I make it extra long, cut both ends off, and fold under and glue. Grain will match perfectly. On outer two boards, rip length wise, fold under and glue. Then glue outters to field boards. To help make top sound thicker, in area where it single thickness, use a sheet of 3/4" MDF. Use screws to attach MDF to bottom of top. Be sure and elongate the holes. Attach legs and rails to MDF with pocket screws. DAMHIK, but I did learn after only one try.

[Mark Bolton]

In making a top like that, I make it extra long, cut both ends off, and fold under and glue. Grain will match perfectly. On outer two boards, rip length wise, fold under and glue. Then glue outters to field boards. To help make top sound thicker, in area where it single thickness, use a sheet of 3/4" MDF. Use screws to attach MDF to bottom of top. Be sure and elongate the holes. Attach legs and rails to MDF with pocket screws. DAMHIK, but I did learn after only one try.

What does 3/4 mdf do? It would do nothing to save the top as made. The top as made is doomed from the start for flatness l and expansion. The frame around the perimeter is an HGTV/Pinterest recipe for failure that the poor OP had no idea about and has now possibly sold a bunch of work that will self destruct.

This story has been playing out for years since the pallet wood movement and pinterest hit hard.

There are endlessly posts on numerous forums of individuals and husbands and wives thinking they are going to make some side money with home center lumber furniture and in short order they are being threatened to be sued because they cant afford to make replacements after their unprofitable initial sales and the work is falling apart.

Bummer. But is what it is.

[Matt Day]

Youve unfortunately broken the most basic rules of wood construction and yes, you will likely lose any other furniture you have built this way. Time to start reading, learning, before you start selling.

I agree 100% with this. Why someone would want construction lumber furniture is beyond me.

2x4’s are all at different MC, all too high for furniture unless it has sat in your shop for 6-12 months. Take a caliper with you next time to the home center and measure the varying widths of the 2x8’s. It’ll vary 3/8”.

[Mark Bolton]

I agree 100% with this. Why someone would want construction lumber furniture is beyond me.

2x4’s are all at different MC, all too high for furniture unless it has sat in your shop for 6-12 months. Take a caliper with you next time to the home center and measure the varying widths of the 2x8’s. It’ll vary 3/8”.

I think it's fine if its constructed with the movement in mind and the customer is fine with the movement and the fact that it may not look all pretty and smooth and flat and shiny over time.

At that point it's up to the maker to inform the customer that framing a top is not possible, balanced finish top and bottom. May cup may twist mat check whatever. If everyone is aware and on board with all that have at it. Green fresh sawn material off the mill is fine.

The hard part is the punterwat and hgtv world have snowed consumers into thinking that's the same level of furniture coming from commercial furniture stores at 1/4 the price.

No dice. And sadly poor guys like Eddie make a mistake and get in a bind.

Making things twice is a bear when you may not have make much on the first one.

[Bruce Wrenn]

What does 3/4 mdf do? It would do nothing to save the top as made. The top as made is doomed from the start for flatness l and expansion. Go back and READ my post. It says NOTHING about saving this top. A true case of hoof and mouth disease.

[Mark Bolton]

I did read it the first time. I still would have no idea what MDF would add to the folded edge or otherwise. No matter. Is what it is at this point.

[Jacob Reverb]

It doesn't matter whether the wood is kiln dried or air dried. The problem is that it changes with seasons and wood moves as it gives up, or takes in moisture. It gets wider across the grain when it takes up moisture (typically in the summer when indoor relative humidities are higher) and it gets narrower when it dries out (typically in the winter because indoor RH values are lower). But it only gets longer/shorter ACROSS the grain (length along the grain doesn't appreciably change), which is why the end pieces are now longer than the width of the table. OP needs to change design.

I would recommend the OP google "humidity, wood movement and furniture design" before building any more furniture. After reading and understanding that, maybe venture into "bread board table design."

In the near term, I like Andrew's suggestion for a kludge as much as anything else. Short of redesigning and rebuilding, there is no way to "fix" this table. The best one can do is shmutz a pretty face on it, plead ignorance, beg forgiveness and hope for the best. I don't think anyone who ordered such a table based on the Pinterest photo was expecting Fine Furniture. It is what it is, and caulk (with maybe some foam carpet padding behind it) ;) may be the OP's best friend. Good luck.

[Prashun Patel]

You may be able to fix the top.

You might be able to rip the top in one or two places, rejoint just the edges and carefully Reglue to get a flat top. You won’t be able to do any post glue sanding and staining (unless u strip the table) but you will only know If it looks good after regluing.

I would research “breadboard ends”. Make new ones, thicker and wider. You have to attach it to the table so it does not constrain the table expansion width wise. Better to read an article for me to explain how to attach. A larger breadboard end will help the top stay flatter next time. That exposed end grain is always going to happen as the seasons make the top expand and contract so that must be expected. When you attach the top to the base, you also need to take care to allow movement.

The basic thing about table construction to know is that because the top wants to expand and contract in width, any other parts that are attached to it, need to allow it to still do that, while simultaneously clamping the two pieces together. Proper attachment of the bb ends and to the base can help keep a top from warping.

You will get through it. Valuable lesson, and not the end of the world. Good luck.

[Lee Schierer]

In making a top like that, I make it extra long, cut both ends off, and fold under and glue. Grain will match perfectly. On outer two boards, rip length wise, fold under and glue. Then glue outters to field boards. To help make top sound thicker, in area where it single thickness, use a sheet of 3/4" MDF. Use screws to attach MDF to bottom of top. Be sure and elongate the holes. Attach legs and rails to MDF with pocket screws. DAMHIK, but I did learn after only one try.

You can repair the existing top by cutting short pieces of matching wood and glue the to the underside of the table on each end with the gran aligned, not cross grained. Most likely once you remove the end strips the top will flatten out on its own.

[glenn bradley]

Good responses here. There are several proven ways to handle wood movement at the junction that failed. Breadboards are common. With quality material many designs survive without any end cap at all. The material in your pictures looks like common dimensional lumber or you've done a good job of making something else look like it. If it is construction lumber it is not going to do well uncontrolled and maybe not even then.

If the replacement is going to be stained as dark as the picture, "brown maple" (a secondary grade of poorly colored maple, soft or hard) can be a money saver. Just as the grade implies, it is color inconsistent so you would possibly have to dye it for consistency. I would just move to a good maple grade, dye for color and top coat but, joinery is the real question here.

Breadboards:

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[Bruce Wrenn]

I did read it the first time. I still would have no idea what MDF would add to the folded edge or otherwise. No matter. Is what it is at this point.


The MDF adds bulk to table so it's weight matches looks. It deadens sounds, and allows a surface to attach the apron too, along with top layer. The elongated holes in MDF for fastening top allow for seasonal movement

[Mark Bolton]

Unfortunately the problem with any of the breadboard or folded solutions in this situation is it's one of the million people seeing table on pinterest and wanting it reproduced for likely pennies on the dollar (hence the framing lumber) and the only thing to follow is a lengthy, likely failed, attempt at educating them about wood movement and that the table they are requesting is doomed to failure which is then followed by them holding up the phone, pointing at it, and saying "but look it's right here this guy made it and THAT is what I want, I don't like the bread board ends, this is what I want". At that point your option is to refuse and walk away or hand them a contract that states the design they have demanded is guaranteed to fail and they are fully aware, and you have no responsibility.

At that point they will likely walk away and go find the guy who knows no better and wash rinse repeat.

These picture framed tables are all over pinterest and a direct result of HGTV et al. Even more sadly the big furniture manufacturers have seen this demand and are now mass producing look alikes with veneered tops which further fuels the fire for the new/small woodworker.

[John TenEyck]

Unfortunately the problem with any of the breadboard or folded solutions in this situation is it's one of the million people seeing table on pinterest and wanting it reproduced for likely pennies on the dollar (hence the framing lumber) and the only thing to follow is a lengthy, likely failed, attempt at educating them about wood movement and that the table they are requesting is doomed to failure which is then followed by them holding up the phone, pointing at it, and saying "but look it's right here this guy made it and THAT is what I want, I don't like the bread board ends, this is what I want". At that point your option is to refuse and walk away or hand them a contract that states the design they have demanded is guaranteed to fail and they are fully aware, and you have no responsibility.

At that point they will likely walk away and go find the guy who knows no better and wash rinse repeat.

These picture framed tables are all over pinterest and a direct result of HGTV et al. Even more sadly the big furniture manufacturers have seen this demand and are now mass producing look alikes with veneered tops which further fuels the fire for the new/small woodworker.


Why is that sad? To me that is the correct solution if you want that look. It may be faux rustic, but at least it will be stable and not self destruct in half a year. What's sad is when unknowledgeable "furniture" makers agree to make those designs without understanding what's going to happen.

The existing table tops the OP has made may be able to be saved by cutting the ends off and installing new ones on sliding dovetails, pinned only at the center. It should definitely work on those that are not already bowed. On those that are bowed I would cut the ends off and see if they flatten out when the MC equilizes. If they do, then install the new ends; if they don't, build a new top.

John

[Frederick Skelly]

That's a very helpful tutorial/reminder Glenn. Thats for posting it!

[Bruce Wrenn]

The MDF adds bulk to table so it's weight matches looks. It deadens sounds, and allows a surface to attach the apron too, along with top layer. The elongated holes in MDF for fastening top allow for seasonal movementWe have a vendor at local flea market who makes his tables this way. He has been in the table business for over twenty years. His tables sell in the 2-5K range, so they aren't "curb furniture."

[julian abram]

I was too embarrassed to show this table I built 4 years ago but Eddie's project brings up the memories. I know this violated every woodworking principle in the book but I built what the lady asked for and carefully explained to her there would be no guarantees and why. She gave me a Potter Barn picture or a large farm table and asked for one built like it. The main kicker was she didn't want the boards glued together, but visible cracks (think 44"x9' picnic table). I probably used a few pounds of screws and lag bolts assembling the thing. I cringe every year when we go to her Christmas party, thinking I'll walk in and find a pile of twisted warped lumber in her dining room. But to my surprise 4 years later is actually still looks pretty nice. I've been scared that someday someone will call and ask me to build another one since all of her friends love it.

**Sorry, I couldn't get the last pic rotated upright. If mods know how to flip the pic, please feel free.:)
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[Frederick Skelly]

Julian, if I'm seeing this right, it looks like you didnt break as many "woodworking principles" as you might think.
*The boards that go cross grain on the underside look like they only attach to each board in the table top in about its middle. Because of that, and the gaps between them, each board is able to expand/contract across its width. Maybe her picnic table idea actually saved the top?
* It's hard to tell for sure, but the boards on the ends (that look like faux breadboards) seem to be fastened into the boards around them in a way that doesn't constrain wood movement.
* Thinking about it, maybe the screws also give just a little (bend or flex) in a way that a rigid glue joint wouldn't.

Is that actually what you did Julian? I cant tell for sure but I think that would explain why it's holding together. (I think!) If so, good for you man!

[Prashun Patel]

I don't think it's sad that people new woodworkers make mistakes; it's sad when experienced ones discourage and disparage them. It's furniture. Nobody's dying. The OP's willing to fix mistakes and is asking to learn.

[Jim Becker]

I don't think it's sad that people new woodworkers make mistakes; it's sad when experienced ones discourage and disparage them. It's furniture. Nobody's dying. The OP's willing to fix mistakes and is asking to learn.
Bingo! This is spot on. It's a learning and teaching opportunity. Let's play nice, folks...

[Robert Hazelwood]

I was too embarrassed to show ever this table I built 4 years ago but Eddie's project brings up the memories. I know this violated every woodworking principle in the book but I built what the lady ask for and carefully explained to her there would be no guarantees and why. She gave me a Potter Barn picture or a large farm table and asked for one built like it. The main kicker was she didn't want the boards glued together, but visible cracks (think 44"x9' picnic table). I probably used a few pounds of screws and lag bolts assembling the thing. I cringe every year when we go to her Christmas party, thinking I'll walk in and find a pile of twisted warped lumber in her dining room. But to my surprise 4 years later is actually still looks pretty nice. I've been scared that someday someone will call and ask me to build another one since everyone since all her visitors love it.

**Sorry, I couldn't get the last pic rotated upright.:)
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The gaps between the planks are what saves it. That isolates each board so the frame only has to deal with the movement of the two outer boards they attach to, which is fairly minimal. Same concept as frame and panel doors, or board and batten doors. When you glue the boards together now the frame has to deal with the movement of one huge 44" wide board, which is not minimal.

To the OP:

I doubt there is enough money in these tables to do breadboard ends. Especially if you have limited tooling. I like the idea of making the top a couple inches longer on each end, and cross-cutting a strip off the ends then glueing those to the bottom. If you top planks of the table are 3/4" then this will yield a 1-1/2" thick end. Trim it flush and then attach a 1-1/2" strip along the edges. This will give a "slab" look your customers will probably like (exposed end grain)

This works because the strips you are glueing on the ends have the same grain orientation as the top, meaning they will move at the same rate as the top. What you did before was glue a strip on the end with the grain running 90 degrees to the top (across the width versus end-to-end). So when the table top shrinks the end strip stays the same length and something has to give.

If your customer demands the table be wrapped in trim on all four sides, then you really need to have small gaps between the boards so that movement can be taken up in those gaps instead of changing the overall width of the table. Of course most people would not like little crumb catching gaps in their dining table. So I would try to steer them towards the slab style.

[glenn bradley]

That's a very helpful tutorial/reminder Glenn. Thats for posting it!

I hope it helps. Trying to nudge the thread back on track. The OP has a question/problem, we should try to help ;-)

[julian abram]

Julian, if I'm seeing this right, it looks like you didnt break as many "woodworking principles" as you might think.
*The boards that go cross grain on the underside look like they only attach to each board in the table top in about its middle. Because of that, and the gaps between them, each board is able to expand/contract across its width. Maybe her picnic table idea actually saved the top?
* It's hard to tell for sure, but the boards on the ends (that look like faux breadboards) seem to be fastened into the boards around them in a way that doesn't constrain wood movement.
* Thinking about it, maybe the screws also give just a little (bend or flex) in a way that a rigid glue joint wouldn't.

Is that actually what you did Julian? I cant tell for sure but I think that would explain why it's holding together. (I think!) If so, good for you man!

Good eye, yes you are correct. The cross members are attached to each board with a screw in the middle. The long center beam is attached to each cross member with a lag bolt. The breadboards are standard mortise and tenon construction with a faux board attached beneath. There was no glue used anywhere in this table. Each year during her Christmas party I slip into the dining room and give it the once over. The tabletop has remained straight and true best I can tell without putting a long straight end on it. The only change I can see is a little more space between the boards from the cross grain shrinkage. But the spaces are uniform throughout the length of each board so it's hardly noticeable.

[Mark Bolton]

I don't think it's sad that people new woodworkers make mistakes; it's sad when experienced ones discourage and disparage them. It's furniture. Nobody's dying. The OP's willing to fix mistakes and is asking to learn.

I dont think its sad either. The safd part pertained to the home/diy programs espousing horrifically flawed practices that catch fire and then someone exited for a new endeavor makes the mistake of jumping the gun and thinking its just sticking some boards together and some home center stain and clear and selling work. Im not trying to beat up on anyone who enjoys working with wood and would love to make a full or part time profession out of it. The issue is that when you _start_charging_people_ and taking on work the entire game changes. You are not suppose to learn on someone elses dime. Everyone including the 60 year "master" is likely learning on every single project they do even if its the ten thousandth time theyve made the item but. Build a few tables dead finished for your shop and keep them around for a year. Give them to friends, family. Leave them out in the sun, in the rain, see how they hold up.

Im sorry but you can read these scenarios all over. This has been going on, and getting a bit worse for years, these shows and outlets float some utterly flawed practice that catches fire and before you know it there are consumers out there with work that's got issues and they are coming back to the maker for resolution. Wonderful in this case making it right is the goal but a lot the stories you read the money is gone, the people are gone, theyve got a half a dozen or more people beating on the door with the same problem, and its a bad situation. As with everything its the risk all parties take, buyer, maker, and so on. I have no problem with 5 shops opening up next door and thankfully dont make retail work very often. But a lot of this stuff makes it much more complicated for others in business.

[Tom Bender]

Looks like the top shrunk about 1/2" and is only showing at one side. Guessing the other end is similar. I'm guessing that the wood has shrunk (shrinked) and will probably not grow all the way back to original size. Trim the excess and tough up the finish. It should be ok.