Is a Xylent cutterhead that much better than Versa?

[Tony Shea]

I'm looking hard at buying a SCM Minimax FS 30C or 41C. I am a hobbiest woodworker that really does most of my work with hand tools. I do not own a jointer and flatten all my stock with hand planes and sometimes thickness through a planer if I have a bunch to get through. Otherwise I will also thickness with handplanes. I'm on a very tight budget but also don't want to buy a cheap piece of equipment. I like the idea of these combo machines as my shop space is tight and really like the width these jointers offer along with being able to plane with the same machine.

My ultimate question is about spending the extra $700+ for a Xylent cutter head, which I assume is just their version of a carbide helical cutter head. After reading a little I honestly think I would prefer the Tersa cutter head for the surface that it offers when knives are sharp, not to mention changing out the knives sounds unbelievably easy on the Tersa. Does anyone here have any experience with one or both of these types of cutters? Also is this machine worth looking at?

[Stewart Lang]

I'm looking hard at buying a SCM Minimax FS 30C or 41C. I am a hobbiest woodworker that really does most of my work with hand tools. I do not own a jointer and flatten all my stock with hand planes and sometimes thickness through a planer if I have a bunch to get through. Otherwise I will also thickness with handplanes. I'm on a very tight budget but also don't want to buy a cheap piece of equipment. I like the idea of these combo machines as my shop space is tight and really like the width these jointers offer along with being able to plane with the same machine.

My ultimate question is about spending the extra $700+ for a Xylent cutter head, which I assume is just their version of a carbide helical cutter head. After reading a little I honestly think I would prefer the Tersa cutter head for the surface that it offers when knives are sharp, not to mention changing out the knives sounds unbelievably easy on the Tersa. Does anyone here have any experience with one or both of these types of cutters? Also is this machine worth looking at?

I think you're going to find that there are plenty of people in both camps, so there isn't going to be a clear cut answer. Experience would be the most helpful for you in deciding which head to purchase. There are certainly pros and cons to both.

From my experience and listening to other people's experiences, it seems like with fresh knives:

- Spiral heads eliminate maybe 80-90% of tearout, and provide that consistently for up to a year or two (depending on your usage)
- Tersa heads eliminate maybe 90-99% of tearout, but that percentage drops consistently within a much shorter time as the straight knives dull. Again depending on usage. Carbide straight knives help, but carbide won't sharpen as "sharp" as HSS, so you're percentage of tearout eliminated starts to compare with spirals, making it rather redundant imo.

There are other benefits and factors. I won't get into them as everybody else will probably cover them. But that's kind of the summary I think of when somebody asks for a comparison. You just have to figure out which one of those you want.

[Jim Andrew]

My experience is 3 blade cutterheads vs helical cutterheads, and I have helical cutters on both my planer and jointer. Ease of changing blades is first reason I went helical, the second is that I use a lot of local cut hardwoods, which has grain that would get a lot of tear out with 3 blade cutterheads. Helical is great, and the Xylent uses fewer cutters than the Grizzly or Byrd helical cutterheads, which would mean it takes less power than the others. Have seen a similar cutterhead on the Grizzly site, and it is a higher priced cutter than the others. Have no experience with the Tersa.

[David Zaret]

there are at least two threads here on SMC on this very topic - definitely do a search on "Tersa" and there will be some good reading. i've had both - and my shop is all carbide tersa now. i think it provides a superior cut, and, though expensive, i find resharpened carbide tersa blades to last a long time and provide terrific cut quality. ...did i mention that they are expensive?

the carbide tersa blades for my planer were nearly $700 for the set. and i won't ever go back.

[David Kumm]

You really need to know the design of the machine to pick the choice. I prefer Tersa but the machine , like any straight knife planer, needs a chipbreaker in front of the knives, and a pressure bar directly behind them. Machines that lack those benefit from the insert type head more than a machine with a 5" head and complete design. That is a reason why you see insert heads on lower end machines and Tersa usually on higher end ones. Dave

[Don Peters]

I think you called it right in your original post: You'll likely prefer the Tersa. I have an SCM j/p with a Tersa head. I've used the stock carbon steel knives as delivered, and they're surprisingly good. Zero tear-out, and they lasted about as long as most carbon steel knives.

Since then I've used only M-46 knives, and they're the bomb. I always pay attention to grain direction, but sometimes it's going both ways. Still no tear-out no matter which way I put it through or what wood species I'm milling. And M-46 lasts a loooong time. Quite amazing.

Let's face it we almost always change knives because we ran something that put a groove in them. The Tersa head allows one to adjust the knives individually along the cutter's axis by a small amount ~4 mm. Typically I can move the knives so as to spread the damaged area of each knife along the cutter head so that at least one knife is cleaning up the divot left by the others. It's not perfect, but its pretty good. And when it's time to replace them, M-46 knives cost $49 for three, and the job is done in five minutes.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have had extensive experience with both at this point across a number of machines.

Last shop I worked I had a insert jointer when I arrived and a straight knife planer. Imop a complete ass backwards way to go.

I am now in a shop again same thing. Insert on the jointer and straight on the planer. Unless the planer knifes are like very new you will get tear out.

I own a Martin t54 20’’ Jointer with a tersa cutterhead. The knives swap in maybe 2 minutes for all four. Keep a sharp set for only your last couple passes and beater set for hogging through the material.

I also own a Felder ad941 combo It has insert. Here is a good for instance. I’m working from home right now hence using my combo as that’s what’s in my home shop. I’m working with QS red oak. To date at work with the straight knife planer “non Tersa” I accept tear out, leave my material a full 1/8 thick and then take it to the sander. Not even close to ideal but it works. So my boss agreed to let me work from home while all this is going on knowing I have a fully equipped shop. His only concern was how I would sand all my work. Mind you we only have a rinky dinky 17” powermatic sander at work so all pieces have to go through it before assembly unlike a widebelt that can handle most assembled pieces. Anyway my response was “I have a insert head on my machine so tearout is not isssue” and it’s true it’s a mute point it just does not happen even with very dull knifes.

What do I prefer and what would I purchase if I owned a business or just for hobby if I was to do it again. Tersa hands down and pony up for a set of carbide and then keep a few sets of beaters in various states.

Hope that helps. You know I’ll miss my insert head on figured wood when I replace it with a new Martin with Tersa but I refuse to but a brand new Martin planer and put a insert head in it as it’s my opinion insert heads are largely for hobby. If you a hobby guy it might be a good choice.

[Andrew Hughes]

I have a insert head on my planer and straight knives on my jointer. The surface that my jointer leaves is far superior to the planer. And I often take a pass on the jointer to remove furry insert head surface.
Like David points out larger heads do make a difference. My jointer has a 5 inch cutting circle with a 36 degree hook angle. My planer is 3inch cutting circle with a carbide inserts with the 25degree face bevel. The only time my planer does better is with painted wood or reclaimed dirty boards.

Good Luck

[Jim Becker]

I'm totally satisfied with the Tersa head on my FS350. (no longer made, but between the two you are looking at in size) The finish is great and the ability to use different metal formulations...and quickly...is a nice feature, although not one I actually take advantage of as the regular HHS knives have more than met my personal needs. You can't beat Tersa for knife changing, either...or for fast recovery from an unfortunately nick...each knife can be moved laterally a little bit in just a few seconds if need be. The Xylent may be "quieter" and provide a nice finish, but you'll still need hearing protection. I doubt I'd personally opt for the more expensive Xylent system without good reason.

[Mike Hoyt]

I have to echo the comments on the Tersa head. I was initially a bit anxious about going from a spiral headed jointer to a straight knife set up but Ive got to say that I could not be happier and wouldnt hesitate to get a Tersa headed planer when its time to upgrade. To save a little dough I put in 2 carbide knives and 2 of the mid grade steel knives, I think they are called M+ now. The finish I get off the jointer sands about twice as fast as the one off the planer with Byrd head. I have about a year of semi pro use from one side of this current set. Bottom line is if it were my money I'd pass on the insert head and use that money on something else.

[Derek Cohen]

There is another factor here which no one has answered (I do not have the answer, only an opinion): which is better, straight knives or the best helix/spiral cutters, at (a) controlling tear out, (b) surface treatment over time, and (c) chip creation for removal?

I work with hard and interlocked woods, and the helix/spiral/silent head on the Hammer A3-31 has always delivered a 99% surface. It prepares the way perfectly for the hand tool work which follows. I am still going to hand plane finishes, but it is rare that there is any tearout to deal with. I have had this machine for about 5 years and am only on the second face of the four-sided carbide blades. The machine gets a good workout on weekends. The finish still remains very good. I shall get another 5 years with the original insets.

Getting the shiniest finish off the thicknesser/planer is not as important as getting a reliable and clear finish. I assume that Tony (OP) sees this the same way as I - we are not depending on the finish off the machine, so the absolute quality of knives vs Xylent is not the factor of importance.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Walsh]

I did touch on this up thread when I mentioned the spiral and hobby shops.

If you re read what I said I made clear the spiral is superior in this regard for hobby use. Hence why at home in my mostly hobby shop I kinda like it.

In a pro setting 1000’s upon 1000’s of board feet a week in many cases rotating those dam inserts is never gonna happen. They are just gonna get used dull forever.

In a pro shop everything also just goes through the sander and in a pro shop figured timber is really really rare. Well here in the US us cabinet makers end up with piles of curly soft maple we purchased as paint grade for face frames/doors/end panels and can’t do a darn with it as the ripples show through the painted finish.

I’m not being contrary just pointing out I made the same point as to make the point and assure the op does also as two people who actually use their machines and a lot are saying the same thing.



There is another factor here which no one has answered (I do not have the answer, only an opinion): which is better, straight knives or the best helix/spiral cutters, at (a) controlling tear out, (b) surface treatment over time, and (c) chip creation for removal?

I work with hard and interlocked woods, and the helix/spiral/silent head on the Hammer A3-31 has always delivered a 99% surface. It prepares the way perfectly for the hand tool work which follows. I am still going to hand plane finishes, but it is rare that there is any tearout to deal with. I have had this machine for about 5 years and am only on the second face of the four-sided carbide blades. The machine gets a good workout on weekends. The finish still remains very good. I shall get another 5 years with the original insets.

Getting the shiniest finish off the thicknesser/planer is not as important as getting a reliable and clear finish. I assume that Tony (OP) sees this the same way as I - we are not depending on the finish off the machine, so the absolute quality of knives vs Xylent is not the factor of importance.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

I replaced my last knifed machine over a decade ago and would never go back. In a high turnover shop, Tersa knives would be a money saver based on speed / ease of changing and being double sided. A lot of folks prefer knives for their own reasons. My preference for index cutterheads is based on the savings in my highly figured stock, long life and smooth surface yield.

Rotating carbide inserts could be a time suck for a production shop. In a one-man shop, not so much. Even though the task is only done every couple of years I have had no trouble with it. I credit forums like this one for that; I learned where all the pitfalls are and prepared against them. The process I use gave me excellent results the first time and take 2 - 3 minutes per insert. Seems like s lot of time but, from what I read on the forum it is a lot faster than going back to troubleshoot.

[Mark e Kessler]

I have never had experience with Tersa either standalone machine or combo. My SCMI FS350 I had for almost 30 yrs in my business and home use had straight knife in it as well as my large SCM planer, I have built an incredible amount of furniture, millwork with the FS350 , definitely had tear out issues but was able to build everything from $1200 tables to 100k kitchens in Walnut.

Without going into all the good points to consider which David Kumm brings up my dummy version is below...

I now have a Felder AD941 with Helical and I can say for home work/hobby/small shop without a wide belt (or maybe even with a small one) in a combo machine Helical for me is the way to go. I have pretty much zero tearout with near perfect finish, the only thing better would be the piece coming out of a wide belt. The size of the head matters, buy the largest cutting circle you can afford I personally feel that a 4 post table is equally important to have and wouldn't have a single post, although the FS350 was a single post and for home hobby use good enough. additionally after hand cranking the planer table for 30yrs do yourself a favor and get a powered table with digital readout (there are inferior hacks to mimic and are cheesy but whatever works for you...)

With that said, as soon as I have a larger space I will dump the Felder combo and have separates jointer with Tersa, planer with Tersa if I get a wide belt, probably Helical if no wide belt.



mk




I'm looking hard at buying a SCM Minimax FS 30C or 41C. I am a hobbiest woodworker that really does most of my work with hand tools. I do not own a jointer and flatten all my stock with hand planes and sometimes thickness through a planer if I have a bunch to get through. Otherwise I will also thickness with handplanes. I'm on a very tight budget but also don't want to buy a cheap piece of equipment. I like the idea of these combo machines as my shop space is tight and really like the width these jointers offer along with being able to plane with the same machine.

My ultimate question is about spending the extra $700+ for a Xylent cutter head, which I assume is just their version of a carbide helical cutter head. After reading a little I honestly think I would prefer the Tersa cutter head for the surface that it offers when knives are sharp, not to mention changing out the knives sounds unbelievably easy on the Tersa. Does anyone here have any experience with one or both of these types of cutters? Also is this machine worth looking at?

[Patrick Kane]

My byrd head in a PM209 is disappointing, in my opinion. Much prefer the surface from tersa off my 20" jointer. Like others pointed out, we are comparing two completely different classes of machines. Someday, I sincerely hope i experience the results others claim to have off insert heads. Ive seen posts from one or two owners of a martin t45 with their insert head and say it is magical. Minimal tearout, carbide lasts forever, the inserts are cheap compared to carbide knives and usually have 4 sides, and the chips off the cutterhead are small and compact in your dust bin nicely. So far i have only experienced smaller chip size, and the carbide lasting a long time. The surface quality kinda sucks off my machine. The dewalt 735 i came from left a vastly better surface than the powermatic with byrd. One last note is tersa carbide only has 2 edges and costs the same if not more than similar width byrd inserts with 4 edges. Tersa carbide is a friggin fortune.

[Jim Becker]

Tersa carbide is a friggin fortune.

Yes, they are really expensive. The 6 HHS knives I just ordered from TersaKnives cost me about $80 shipped for all of them. Carbides in the same 350mm size are $81 US each. BUT....they last a very long time. If I'm not mistaken, Brian Holcombe has the carbides in his SCM/Minimax FS-410, but I could be wrong. If I processed a lot of materai, I'd likely consider getting the carbides, but given my shop does one-off work for clients and personal and isn't going through a huge amount of material, I'm very happy with just using the HHS or M+ knives. They are cost effective, last a long time, are two-sided and as I mentioned, they are easy to adjust if they inadvertently get a nick in them.

[David Zaret]

yep, as stated, carbide tersas are expensive. i have them in my martin jointer, and in my SCM 25" planer, and i run thousands of bdft before even thinking about flipping them. then, when they are dull, unimerco sharpens them to better-than-new. so, on a per-bd-ft basis, i haven't done the math, but i bet it pencils out reasonably.

i keep a few sets of steel knives on hand for nasty stuff, or in case the carbide's are in for sharpening.

[Brian Holcombe]

I use Tersa carbide, they last a very long time though. I have two sets, one which is the everyday set and another which is for finer finishes.

Big plus is that I don't need to spend an hour turning carbides and that I can swap to newer knives for a finish pass that costs me about 4 minutes time total (in and out twice).

[Tony Shea]

Thanks for all the great responses. I personally would like the Xylent cutter and as Derek pointed out would make the most sense in my hand tool oriented shop. Every piece of wood absolutely gets a hand plane finish. I avoid sand paper at all costs but do have to resort to it from time to time. Having said this I still think I am leaning toward the cheaper Tersa head. It sounds like such an amazingly easy blade change and is a little closer to my budget.

[glenn bradley]

I use Tersa carbide, they last a very long time though. I have two sets, one which is the everyday set and another which is for finer finishes.

Big plus is that I don't need to spend an hour turning carbides and that I can swap to newer knives for a finish pass that costs me about 4 minutes time total (in and out twice).

Thanks Brian for bringing up a facet of this discussion I had not considered. Like easy bandsaw blade changes, Tersa knives would encourage changing for purposes other than just replacement.

[Derek Cohen]

One more point to add, again this is likely more relevant to a home-based amateur than a factory-based (or similar) workshop: the noise factor.

I think that it is widely accepted that straight blades (regardless of type) are significantly noisier than the segmented helical/spiral bits. My old Delta lunchbox thicknesser/planer wailed like a banshee on heat, and it was used very infrequently as a result, generally only when there was an air raid siren going. By comparison, the Silent Head of the A3-31 Hammer permits a normal conversation while it is running.

How true of this is the Tersa/Xylent comparison?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

Derek, my Tersa head doesn't "Scream" anything like a lunchbox planer with a universal motor, but it's still loud...and gets louder when the DC is turned on before the wood is engaged. It's interesting how the air flow amplifies the machine noise!

[Brian Holcombe]

The tersa is louder for sure, but I don't know if it's louder when cutting wood.

[Patrick Walsh]

A few QS red oak boards I ran today. .005 cut at a time and zero tearout. And that’s with knifes that have never once been turned in over five years of of intermittent use. I’d say it get used intermittently. But when it gets used I tend to mill stock all day, like 7-8hrs and often days back to back and on end.

428420

428421

428422

And around a knot that wanted to tear out with a .010 cut. But no tearout at .005

428423’

Still I’d opt for Tersa anyway knowing what I know now. When I purchased this machine I didn’t know much..