Vintage Shortstroke sliding saws

[Patrick Kane]

This question is specific to a Wadkin PP 450, but im sure it has general appeal to all vintage cast iron sliders. This particular saw is missing the quadrant/crosscut fence. If it is anything like the Wadkin PK parts/accessories then there isnt a chance of finding such an accessory. However, im not necessarily attached to OEM parts. In fact, after using a modern felder crosscut extrusion with stops and a scale, i cant imagine wanting to lose all those features on a vintage saw. Has anyone personally fabricated a crosscut fence for their vintage saw? If so, do you have pictures documenting the design? It seems pretty simple to use incra/80/20 extrusion with off the shelf stops, but im concerned about mounting to the sliding table and squaring to the blade. I dont have one of these saws in my possession to think it through, and i also dont want to buy the saw without thinking through how to replace the crosscut fence. The old catch 22.

[brent stanley]

This question is specific to a Wadkin PP 450, but im sure it has general appeal to all vintage cast iron sliders. This particular saw is missing the quadrant/crosscut fence. If it is anything like the Wadkin PK parts/accessories then there isnt a chance of finding such an accessory. However, im not necessarily attached to OEM parts. In fact, after using a modern felder crosscut extrusion with stops and a scale, i cant imagine wanting to lose all those features on a vintage saw. Has anyone personally fabricated a crosscut fence for their vintage saw? If so, do you have pictures documenting the design? It seems pretty simple to use incra/80/20 extrusion with off the shelf stops, but im concerned about mounting to the sliding table and squaring to the blade. I dont have one of these saws in my possession to think it through, and i also dont want to buy the saw without thinking through how to replace the crosscut fence. The old catch 22.

A few folks are making replacement quadrants and protractor for the PK and the PP so there are options there.

B

[David Kumm]

Canadianwoodworking.com is the place to look for all things Wadkin. The PP has a T slot for a miter gauge so you can have a bar made to fit to any larger old gauge and use it. I have several and keep one fixed at 90. On my PK, I had two tapped holes near the front of the slider. I drilled one out for an eccentric bushing, tapped a set screw in the side of the table to lock it, and use a proscale digital fence. doesn't work for angles though. Check that the sliding table is flat. Great system if it is but evidently some tables had issues. Some were belt and some were DD. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

No experience with a PP or PK but I don’t see why a modern double miter could not be mounted to the sliding table on these. They are made to mount to the edge of the sliding table and you would probably need to fabricate a bracket of some sort. Nothing bolts on with these, they are just held with a cam lever. This makes for quick on and off. I think this would be more accurate and versatile than the original quadrant on these. They are more for small work and the fence stops only go out to a little less than 5’.
A long cross fence on these might be difficult since they do not have a outrigger.

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[Patrick Kane]

Yes, i definitely want a shorter fence. This is in a walking corridor where a 4'+ crosscut fence would be a PITA. My felder combo has the long cross cut fence, and outrigger, so this saw would be redundant. More or less to replace my powermatic 72 as the primary ripping saw and dado saw. The powermatic is ok, but i like working on machines, and am always curious about other makes. Never owned a wadkin machine before. I am curious about the hype.

[Erik Loza]

I never sold many short-stroke sliders back in the "Italian Days" but the shops who did buy them, swore by them. Always some super-beefy chassis and overhead guard, big blade, and this 4' slider. Crazy.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Erik, the precision for cross cutting is what it is and could very well have been the most attractive feature for the repeatability...which is likely better than even the most fine tuned crosscut solution that uses miter slots on a North American style saw. It's what I use the most on my own slider, honestly. If I ever had to downsize, I'd go with a short stroke slider over any NA style cabinet saw, personally.

[Erik Loza]

Jim, it must be a European thing. For example, the "base configuration" on many of our sliders is essentially your short-stroke machine. We (the US side) spec them up with 9' or 10' sliders, etc., but the default configuration is a short-stroke machine in a lot of cases. I still see Robland sliders, which have a pretty beefy chassis, with 5' sliders from time to time in shops. I haven't sold one yet but we just released a 700-Series slider that takes a 16" blade but can be had with a 48" slider.

Erik

[David Kumm]

It can be difficult to mount on the edge of an old short stroke as the table is cast iron with little lip on the edge to support stuff. The miter gauge slot with a head that locks down is the easiest. I've also bought offcuts of 60x60 extrusions and bought some Grizzly stops that fit. Many of their saws use a 60x60 . They are fairly reasonable and fairly stout. Dave

[Jim Becker]

Erik, I suspect that from a market perspective, when we say "slider", folks immediately think about the 8-10' wagon versions. I think if there was more visibility around short-stroke sliders and their benefits, more would sell. There's definitely been a perceivable (albeit small) uptick in interest for smaller sliders here in the forum to my mind as more and more folks embrace the format (pardon the general expression :D ) and post about how they are using their machines. But the large space requirements are a challenge for many folks. Maybe more "base configurations" would sell into the US market if more folks knew about them since they provide the slider accuracy for cross cutting and more traditional ripping in the same package. :)

[Brian Holcombe]

I have a short stroke slider and could not be happier. The machine is great for crosscutting.

[Warren Lake]

are you not seeing short stroke sliders as two different types. The Wadkin types where they are geared to solid or the SCM types where there is an outrigger and they are panel and solid. Even in these short stroke like the SCM I have they had different models, one would take a mitre gauge, the one I have does not. I havent looked super close but think anything could be adapted to this one. There are threaded holes in different places and easy to bolt whatever type of jig on there. I can stand behind this and use it like a cabinet saw, the only neg I see is the blade is pretty far into the table compared to a cabinet saw so you have to extend more.

[Erik Loza]

...Maybe more "base configurations" would sell into the US market if more folks knew about them since they provide the slider accuracy for cross cutting and more traditional ripping in the same package. :)

Jim, you are absolutely right about exposure being the issue. That's been the case since Day-1 with Euro machines. Not long ago, I priced out "a well known cabinet saw that has a unique safety feature" while talking with a customer about table saws. Somewhat surprisingly, if I spec'ed that one out to be close to a Hammer equivalent, the price was very almost the same and of course, theirs had only a sliding attachment rather than a true slider. I think there will always be that "if I had only know then" factor.

Erik

[Derek Cohen]

Eric, I went through this process three years ago. It was a choice between the Hammer K3 31” x 31” Basic, vs the SS with 36” rip fence/outfeed and slider accessory. These are a very similar price. I ended up with a 49” Winner and the 31” Pro rip fence/ outfeed (actually 51” wagon), about a third more.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joe Hollis]

Before undertaking the rebuild of my 10" General cabinet saw, I looked very seriously at buying a small slider. I absolutely agree that the ability to accurately cut multiple smaller panels is a very appealing feature for most serious amateur woodworkers-that's why I found it very odd when the local shop that sells this type of equipment worked very hard to try to talk me into buying one of the full-size sliders that they import/stock, even though I simply do not have the space for one. I know a few woodworkers here that have added a sliding table attachment to their 10" cabinet saws, and none of them are happy with them. I think that there definitely is a market for a sliding saw with a short (4' to 5') capacity max. My track saw would likely not have been bought.

Regards,

Joe H.

[David Kumm]

In the 1990s Felder made a short stroke 7 series saw with heavy internals. SCMI SI12 was a great panel short stroke. To be really functional, the base and sliding table extrusion must be stout enough so a sub table doesn't need to stick out in front of the machine and screw up the ergonomics of traditional ripping. That is where most new short stroke saws are lacking. Most old iron short stroke saws had about a 36" crosscut so they handled most cabinet work except the full sheet crosscut. Ply was rare than but I've found that 36" handles about 75% of the needs. Short stroke well built machines are not cheap to make so the cost of the longer stroke comes relatively cheap in comparison. Dave

[Derek Cohen]

It is relevant to add that there are two types of short-stroke sliders.

The first is styled on a traditional European slider wagon, however the wagon is shorter, generally 31” - 51” in length. The wagon travels close to the blade (about 1” away). This slider more easily facilitates being used as a cabinet saw than the sliders with long wagons as the wagon does not interfere much with access. The cabinet saw method is facilitated by locking down the wagon and running work pieces against the rip fence. The wagon remains long enough to use a F&F jig to rip on the wagon.

This is the Jack-of-all-Trades slider style I now have ...

https://i.postimg.cc/76FDZ9tw/11a.jpg

... and why I have spent time upgrading the rip fence with the JessEm Clear Cut Saw Guides, as well as designing and building the Reverse F&F.

Before the K3 came along, my table saw was a contractor type with a crosscut sliding table. I used this for 20 years ...

https://i.postimg.cc/76Ft7xZL/B6-zps95d32b52.jpg

The slider wagon here also makes it a short-stroke, however this wagon is only designed for crosscutting. The wagon is a good 12” from the blade, and ripping is not really possible.

When I was looking to upgrade my table saw, my first thought was a SawStop with 36” rip fence rails (since I do not need to cut sheets), along with the accessory slider wagon. This would have replicated the second example, my old table saw. The SS would have simply produced a safer and better quality, but similar featured saw. When I first looked at the Hammer K3 short-stroke, I was planning in the 31” model since I did not understand that the slider wagon was for ripping as well. When this became clear, I went as long as I could, while recognising that the longest versions were really designed for sheet goods. The K3 wagon on mine is referred to in the US as 48” but really is 51” in length.

I very much doubt that many would choose a full SawStop set up over the K3 set up I have once they used it for a while. This will not give the sheet good user enough capacity, but it gives the solid wood user a much wider range of choices.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frank Martin]

Derek,

I have a Minimax CU300 Smart combo machine with a 5-ft slider. I have been thinking about the Jessem clear cut saw guides to use the rip fence. I see that you are doing this on your Hammer. I would appreciate if you can share some pictures on how you adapted the guides and also comment on your experience on the Jessem unit....


It is relevant to add that there are two types of short-stroke sliders.

The first is styled on a traditional European slider wagon, however the wagon is shorter, generally 31” - 51” in length. The wagon travels close to the blade (about 1” away). This slider more easily facilitates being used as a cabinet saw than the sliders with long wagons as the wagon does not interfere much with access. The cabinet saw method is facilitated by locking down the wagon and running work pieces against the rip fence. The wagon remains long enough to use a F&F jig to rip on the wagon.

This is the Jack-of-all-Trades slider style I now have ...

https://i.postimg.cc/76FDZ9tw/11a.jpg

... and why I have spent time upgrading the rip fence with the JessEm Clear Cut Saw Guides, as well as designing and building the Reverse F&F.

Before the K3 came along, my table saw was a contractor type with a crosscut sliding table. I used this for 20 years ...

https://i.postimg.cc/76Ft7xZL/B6-zps95d32b52.jpg

The slider wagon here also makes it a short-stroke, however this wagon is only designed for crosscutting. The wagon is a good 12” from the blade, and ripping is not really possible.

When I was looking to upgrade my table saw, my first thought was a SawStop with 36” rip fence rails (since I do not need to cut sheets), along with the accessory slider wagon. This would have replicated the second example, my old table saw. The SS would have simply produced a safer and better quality, but similar featured saw. When I first looked at the Hammer K3 short-stroke, I was planning in the 31” model since I did not understand that the slider wagon was for ripping as well. When this became clear, I went as long as I could, while recognising that the longest versions were really designed for sheet goods. The K3 wagon on mine is referred to in the US as 48” but really is 51” in length.

I very much doubt that many would choose a full SawStop set up over the K3 set up I have once they used it for a while. This will not give the sheet good user enough capacity, but it gives the solid wood user a much wider range of choices.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Frank

I wrote up the mod I did to use the JessEm here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?280805-JessEm-Clear-Cut-TS-Stock-Guides-for-Hammer-K3

It has been a very recent addition, and I am still ironing out a few minor issues. The main one is how to use a push stick when sawing narrow boards. On the wider boards and panels, it has done exactly what the blurb states, that is, force the edge into the fence. This steadies the saw cut and the result is that it ends up with the cleanest edge possible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Kumm]

428411428412Here is the PK fe nce and mounts.428413428415428416Here are some for the Whitney 77. The one on the wall has a plate attached to add about 6" to the stroke. The bar on the red gauge is to lock the head to the table and to attach one of Mac's clamps.

The three saws are as follows, Whitney, Wadkin, and Robinson. Dave
428417428418428419

[Frank Martin]

Hi Derek,

Looks great! Thanks for sharing. I am wondering if they also work in the low fence mode. Have you tried it? In the low fence mode, it may not require an adopter to attach if the saw guides can be attached using the t-channel that would be on the topside of the fence extrusion.


Hi Frank

I wrote up the mod I did to use the JessEm here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?280805-JessEm-Clear-Cut-TS-Stock-Guides-for-Hammer-K3

It has been a very recent addition, and I am still ironing out a few minor issues. The main one is how to use a push stick when sawing narrow boards. On the wider boards and panels, it has done exactly what the blurb states, that is, force the edge into the fence. This steadies the saw cut and the result is that it ends up with the cleanest edge possible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Zac wingert]

You should look into finding a saw like Brian holcombe, like others have said. Sounds like it’ll fit your desires as far as balancing the old and new.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek,

Looks great! Thanks for sharing. I am wondering if they also work in the low fence mode. Have you tried it? In the low fence mode, it may not require an adopter to attach if the saw guides can be attached using the t-channel that would be on the topside of the fence extrusion.

Frank, the base was designed for the high fence. It would not fit the low fence. In any event, I cannot imagine a scenario for the low fence and JessEm.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Erik Loza]

...I know a few woodworkers here that have added a sliding table attachment to their 10" cabinet saws, and none of them are happy with them...

Joe, there are a several shops on my territory that have cabinet saws with the sliding "attachments" (variety of brands; you would know them) and the owners all say the same thing you are saying. One guy told me, "We don't even use it any more". Apparently does not keep alignment, have to re-square every time, etc. Interesting observation.

Erik

[Brian Holcombe]

A small scale dedicated slider is better than the attachment table in my experience.

[Warren Lake]

the old guy I spent the most time with ran two cabinet saws in his home shop, one for ripping and one with a wooden sleigh for cross cutting. I did the same and made my sleigh so it could cut 4 x 8's, and it worked well enough.

In time on my cross cut saw I put first generation Exalibure sliding tables. difference is I put one on each side. The concept was good. You can have the best slider but you still have to spin the part to cut to length, to me that seemed backwards. Putting a sliding table on each side sped stuff up and no more part spinning, cross cut your end then slide to the right to the stop on the other side cut to length.

The excaliburs to be fair were first generation so primative. They served the purpose fine on smaller stuff and could cut square until there was heavy weight involved. Then they were unpredictable. I spent extra time fitting drawers once as a center gable was out of square a bit so they got fired. They were also a pain to push and at times felt like going to the gym. I clean them up and okay for a bit but just okay. Still mickey mouse.

Im sure i could have gone and bought a new generation Excalibur and it would be smooth and work well but I looked at the price of just one and instead bought a whole complete used sliding saw for way less. Better fence, heavy and smooth, 9HP instead of three, three speeds, large size blade, better dust collection, no comparison saw quality to the cabinet saws.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Brian's saw is sweet. Or something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2EKXk2sXGM. Now I have no idea how one would import one of those Japanese sliding table saws to the US.

[Christian Hawkshaw]

Are the Northfields with the rollertop option good?

[David Kumm]

NF #4 is a good old slider, as is Greenlee 495S, Whitney 77 or 177 ( rare ), Oliver 270, and a few others. The old iron saws last forever but the sliding tables are not as smooth or as tight as the newer type machines. Lateral wobble needs to be dialed out on some and all will be three phase. Upside is the guts are a million times heavier, the bearings are large with high load, the center mounted fences are stout enough for a power feeder to handle, and a 14-16" blade with 5" flanges on the arbor can give a stable cut under stress. Everything has tradeoffs. Dave

[Derek Cohen]

Here is a video of Ishitani in which he uses a (Shimohira?) Japanese short-stroke table saw - which is used for crosscutting. All in the first 4 minutes ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOFHUfZMF_o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOFHUfZMF_o)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ron Selzer]

Any info on that drill press he has?

[Joe Calhoon]

I’ve always enjoyed the Ishitani videos especially seeing the older Japanese standard machines. I like the little table saw with the outboard saw. Pretty rare to see those machines here.

I picked up a vintage T17 slider a while back thinking at some point I will probably be downsizing my shop. A few observations about this-

It came with the factory cross fence that extends to 12’. This was too much for the space it sets in so I fitted a Felder short fence and that has worked well. It was the only aftermarket fence I could find that that would function like the original for mitering and lateral fence movement.
The only downside I have seen to this saw is the slider away from the blade. This makes dado or shaper head setups easier than a conventional slider but think I would prefer next to the blade. The other thing I miss is the hydro blade tilt and raise on my T72. The 1970s era Martin and Altendorf short sliders had this feature. These were not total cast iron saws but desirable in my opinion. These saws had slider next to the blade. The old US and UK short sliders do not appeal to me because of the pattern maker type fence and lack of outrigger support. I know some of these had permanent extended sliding tables but those seem pretty unhandy
One thing I have found interesting in using this saw is after 20 years of not having a standard table saw in the shop I feel uncomfortable standing behind this and ripping. I have other ripping means in the shop but have alway done a bit on the full size slider. Say what you want about that being awkward but it sure puts you out of the path of flying objects!


This saw will get total restoration at some point and will add overhead DC and a motor brake.

428488
428489

[David Kumm]

A nice feature of the old sliders is that the sliding table either cranks or pulls out so you can add a dado and keep the fence references on both the crosscut and rip fences. I like that better than removing a flange to add the stack. Mac of Mac's Clamps fame has a SCMI saw shaper made in the early 90s that also has either a pull out table or adjustable arbor ( I don't remember which ). The saw and shaper can be lined up to cut and shape in one pass. The machines were sold in Europe but I think Mac has the only one here in the US. Dave

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Joe, what is the name of the small rip saw with the outboard saw that Ishitani-san uses?

[Joe Calhoon]

Wakahisa, no idea the brand. Not sure if he is using it the way it’s designed. That setup could be dangerous in the wrong hands but sure looks handy for haunching. The Japanese machines sure interest me but difficult to find much info in English.

[Joe Calhoon]

A nice feature of the old sliders is that the sliding table either cranks or pulls out so you can add a dado and keep the fence references on both the crosscut and rip fences. I like that better than removing a flange to add the stack. Mac of Mac's Clamps fame has a SCMI saw shaper made in the early 90s that also has either a pull out table or adjustable arbor ( I don't remember which ). The saw and shaper can be lined up to cut and shape in one pass. The machines were sold in Europe but I think Mac has the only one here in the US. Dave

Dave, my cousin in Italy had one of those in his shop. Had a picture somewhere but cannot find. On his the saw blade was adjustable lateraly to set the tenon and slotting depth. He had a well equipped door and window shop. He left this machine set up for making shutters.
here is one like he had.
https://files.hoechsmann.com/lexikon/pdf/original/scm_st_4_4w_it.pdf?lang=en

[Zac wingert]

Sorry, but can’t do better than what’s in this thread:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?273006-From-W-Germany-by-way-of-Colorado&highlight=

[David Kumm]

For those interested, there is a nice looking Casadei on Woodweb. Dave

[Patrick Kane]

I’ve always enjoyed the Ishitani videos especially seeing the older Japanese standard machines. I like the little table saw with the outboard saw. Pretty rare to see those machines here.

I picked up a vintage T17 slider a while back thinking at some point I will probably be downsizing my shop. A few observations about this-

This saw will get total restoration at some point and will add overhead DC and a motor brake.

428488
428489

Your critiques of the saw are reasons why i want one. I already have a Felder KF700 to do the majority of my crosscutting, but i dont like the saw too much for ripping. It is an 80" stroke, which is long enough to have the carriage in my way using the rip fence and too short for 70% of my rips on the slider. In all honesty, i should probably think about selling the powermatic 72 and Felder KF700, and replacing with a T-17 and a separate shaper. I keep looking for a t-17. There was one in Long Island not too long ago for about $3,000. I just need to keep paying attention. A guy by the name of Jeff, i believe, picked one up in Chicago last year for a song. I saw the listing during one of my usual searches and it was gone in a few hours. Oddly enough, it showed up on youtube not too long after haha. $800, if i remember correctly.

[Peter Kelly]

Joe, what is the name of the small rip saw with the outboard saw that Ishitani-san uses?Think it’s an old Kyowa.


https://youtu.be/Vl05JngPVwE

Cool little machine.

[John K Jordan]

Joe, there are a several shops on my territory that have cabinet saws with the sliding "attachments" (variety of brands; you would know them) and the owners all say the same thing you are saying. One guy told me, "We don't even use it any more". Apparently does not keep alignment, have to re-square every time, etc. Interesting observation.

Erik

Curious, is Robland one of the brands? I've had the heavy cast iron Robland sliding attachment on my PM66 for years now and so far it seems to stay aligned well. However, I do not use the saw in a woodworking business and no one but myself touches it.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Peter, thank you. While the brand is Kyoma for that particular machine, what do the Japanese call this type of saw? Rip saw? Tennon saw? I agree with Joe. I have been looking for info the last year, but can't find any reliable info in English. The web translator is unreliable. It translates the name as "lift saw." That makes no sense. It makes me want to learn a new language.

[Peter Kelly]

Peter, thank you. While the brand is Kyoma for that particular machine, what do the Japanese call this type of saw? Rip saw? Tennon saw? I agree with Joe. I have been looking for info the last year, but can't find any reliable info in English. The web translator is unreliable. It translates the name as "lift saw." That makes no sense. It makes me want to learn a new language.I think “昇降盤” refers just to the table saw part of the machine where the blade is only height adjustable (lifting) rather than one where the blade is both tilting and height adjustable. I don’t believe there’s any direct translation other than “saw with tenoner”.

Been wanting a Tokiwa SB-400 for years now.

http://xororo.heteml.jp/istation/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/600x450-2017022100033-600x450.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for that Peter. Googling that now I find a lot of pictures and understand the side saw better.
I want one!

[Kevin Jenness]

How does the secondary saw work?

[Wakahisa Shinta]

The lower saw on the Tokiwa or Kyoma is often used for cutting tenons or cutting small stocks. During my time of researching this saw and looking at how it is used, I see it is used for making tenon a lot. Jigs can be made for cutting small stock. The small fence is easily adjusted and locked down. The operation appears to require little set up time. The one drawback that I see with using it to cut tenon is that you have to over cut into the shoulders to totally remove the waste of the tenon cheeks, unlike using an american table saw with a tenon cutting jig. However, that is not an issue since it will become hidden in most cases.

Joe and Peter, do you know of any importer or Japanese exporter that is willing to export/import from Japan? I have wanted one for a long time too. I also like their short stroke sliders with the sliding table on the right side. From my perspective, these sliding table saws resemble old British machines.

[Erik Loza]

Curious, is Robland one of the brands? I've had the heavy cast iron Robland sliding attachment on my PM66 for years now and so far it seems to stay aligned well. However, I do not use the saw in a woodworking business and no one but myself touches it.

Yeah, Roblands are pretty beefy. Their short-stroke machines were re-branded and distributed by Powermatic and a couple of others for a while. I didn't realize they did attachments.

Erik

[Peter Kelly]

Joe and Peter, do you know of any importer or Japanese exporter that is willing to export/import from Japan? I have wanted one for a long time too. I also like their short stroke sliders with the sliding table on the right side. From my perspective, these sliding table saws resemble old British machines.Sadly most of the companies making classical type woodworking machines in Japan are gone however there’s a lot of used stuff out there but you’d be on your own importing it.

If you find yourself in Tokyo, these guys usually have a pretty good inventory:

Tokyo Machine Centre Co., Ltd.
〒 370 - 0014
Saitama Prefecture Kumagaya City
Hakoda 6-17-27
http://www.dougukan.net

Map: https://goo.gl/maps/2shv5zPeDTv

[Mark Hennebury]

Kyowa kiko appears to still be in business.
Many years ago I had the brochures and specs on these machines, I still may have them poked away somewhere.

428720
http://www.kyowa-kiko.co.jp/e_petty.html

https://kyowass.com/index.php?page=9_shujinki

Lots of used dealers in Japan. I have imported machines from Japan without any problem.

https://reuse-west.com/product-category/powertool_category/transectionboard/

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Peter, thanks for that link. I have watched most of dougukan videos on their video channel, but could not find their website. I did not think to try .net instead of .com.

Mark, I was hoping your would chime in since you know a lot about Japanese machines. Thanks for the link.

To the OP, I apologize for veering the discussion toward foreign machines. Hopefully, this is somewhat relevant to what you are looking for.

[Mark Hennebury]

Wakahisa,

a couple of links to used machinery dealers that have a saws;

http://www.marushinkiko.com/

http://www.watanabekikai.com/





Peter, thanks for that link. I have watched most of dougukan videos on their video channel, but could not find their website. I did not think to try .net instead of .com.

Mark, I was hoping your would chime in since you know a lot about Japanese machines. Thanks for the link.

To the OP, I apologize for veering the discussion toward foreign machines. Hopefully, this is somewhat relevant to what you are looking for.

[Patrick Kane]

No need to apologize, Wakahisa. I do find tangential conversations beneficial. It’s hard for one person to compare all these older machines against one another. To begin with, they are mildly rare.

[Peter Kelly]

Makita and Hitachi Koki / Hikoki still make a few things as well per Tokyo Machine Center's online store.
https://store.shopping.yahoo.co.jp/dougukan/ccdab9a9b5.html

Marunaka is still in business as well.
http://www.marunaka-jp.com/ENG_HP/Surfacer1.htm

[Mark Hennebury]

Peter,

I have been an agent for Marunaka for the past 12 years or so.
Selling new and used supersurfacers. I have done quite a few rebuilds on them also.


I used to have a lot more info on my old website but haven't got around to uploading it all to the new site.

https://www.solidwoodmachinery.com/




Makita and Hitachi Koki / Hikoki still make a few things as well per Tokyo Machine Center's online store.
https://store.shopping.yahoo.co.jp/dougukan/ccdab9a9b5.html

Marunaka is still in business as well.
http://www.marunaka-jp.com/ENG_HP/Surfacer1.htm

[Peter Kelly]

Mark, quick question about super surfacers - do any of them utilize disposable knives? It seems as though you'd need to maintain a pretty extraordinary edge to keep one of these machines going..

[Peter Kelly]

Joe and Peter, do you know of any importer or Japanese exporter that is willing to export/import from Japan?Sorry, missed this earlier.
https://www.tenso.com/en/static/lp_shop_index
https://www.teamww.com
https://www.agility.com

[Mark Hennebury]

Peter,
Yes you can get a disposable knife set for most of the Marunaka's
I have oredered them for a few customers, but never used them myself. From the feedback they do a really good job abd the edge last 3x the standard knife edge.
I have aslo had a few of the knife grinders in my shop. both manual and fully automatic, they do an incredible, job, dual head rough grinder and finish hone. The finish hone is a 1 degree steeper micro bevel, and a true mirror finish, quite something to see and to use.
You need to have flawless blades and clean workspace and work process to get the best from these machines. Also the back-knife setting and correct tool geometry is critical. They are not difficult to use once you get the basic rules down, in fact they are a joy to use.


Mark, quick question about super surfacers - do any of them utilize disposable knives? It seems as though you'd need to maintain a pretty extraordinary edge to keep one of these machines going..

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Mark, my understanding is that Marunaka makes a grinder for the disposable knives. I suppose you can not grind the disposable knives too many times, but how many times can you grind them? Does it make economic sense to purchase the grinder, which is probably expensive, for the disposable knives?

Do you still have the MG-500 grinder? I remember watching your demonstration video some time ago.

Thank you for the URLs, Peter and Mark.


Peter,
Yes you can get a disposable knife set for most of the Marunaka's
I have oredered them for a few customers, but never used them myself. From the feedback they do a really good job abd the edge last 3x the standard knife edge.
I have aslo had a few of the knife grinders in my shop. both manual and fully automatic, they do an incredible, job, dual head rough grinder and finish hone. The finish hone is a 1 degree steeper micro bevel, and a true mirror finish, quite something to see and to use.
You need to have flawless blades and clean workspace and work process to get the best from these machines. Also the back-knife setting and correct tool geometry is critical. They are not difficult to use once you get the basic rules down, in fact they are a joy to use.

[Mark Hennebury]

Wakahisa, Marunaka do make a grinder for the disposable knives, but I really don't know anything about that one. I would think that you are correct in assuming that you can only sharpen them a few times.

I sold the MG-500 grinder, and still regret it after several years. It is fully automatic and did a beautiful job, on any straight knives for supersurfacer, jointers, thickness-planers and hand-plane blades. You certainly get use to having a grinder like that in your shop, and really miss it when its gone.
New grinders are not cheap. But there is not much point to have a tool unless you can sharpen it, so it is worth having a grinder. You quickly get used to popping your blades on the grinder and having razor sharp blades for every project. Its a nice way to work.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

We really veered off course! Getting back to the topic of the thread.

Are the various manufacturers of Japanese short-stroke slider equivalent in quality of their machines?

The little information that I have read and photographs that I have seen indicates some machines are better made than others. The number 1300 comes up very often. The current Kyoma machines appear in picture less robust compared to the older versions. In contrast, the old Tokai and Dainichi Seiko saws are the ones that I feel were made with heavier cast material.

[Joe Calhoon]

How does the secondary saw work?

Kevin,
thanks to the links others provided I found this on this type saw.

https://youtu.be/_x7S_e8ZOjA

[Wakahisa Shinta]

That secondary saw/blade excels at cutting tenons. Its capabilities are demonstrated in a lot of Ishitani Furniture videos, which are quite relaxing to watch.

[Joe Calhoon]

I enjoy those videos as well. I like the way he works. I just watched the one where he cuts his butterfly inlays with the saw. The unique thing with the saw is you are aligned with the center of the arbor. Lot of possibilities for odd ball work.