Farmers join " right to repair" movement

[dennis thompson]

This kind of connects to my Luddite post from yesterday. As ,I think is well known, most farmers repair much of their own equipment. Farm equipment makers use copyright laws protecting the software in newer farm equipment. It seems much new farm equipment is loaded with software and when problems happen with the equipment only a licensed repairman from the company may repair it , leaving the farmers waiting for the repair. This has apparently cause older farm equipment to be in demand and farmers asking that they be given the "right to repair". I have a retired friend who was a software engineer, he had to call the company repairman to repair his tractor!

[Mike Cutler]

I saw a you tube video on this subject some time back.
Apparently, in response, the US Farmers have been buying pirated diagnostic software from eastern block countries to run their own diagnostics, and repair their machines.
Same issue with cars these days. Way too much electronic control.

[Ole Anderson]

I saw a you tube video on this subject some time back.
Apparently, in response, the US Farmers have been buying pirated diagnostic software from eastern block countries to run their own diagnostics, and repair their machines.
Same issue with cars these days. Way too much electronic control.If our car goes down for an electronic glitch, which is rare, we just take it to the dealer and get a loaner if needed. A new tractor might have 4 or 6 touch screens/computers for engine control, implement control, auto steer and so on. If one fails, you don't just take it to the dealer and get a loaner. Your window of cultivating, planting, fertilizing, harvesting may be just a few days, or even hours between weather events. Loose your whole crop due to a bad wire harness? Devastating.

[Tom M King]

That's one reason I'm completely redoing the guts of my 1978 John Deere. One dealer told me that "they didn't have a mechanic smart enough to redo the reverser" that needed work. In the process of working on it myself, I've found all sorts of stuff done wrong the last time one of them went in it. I've heard horror stories on them not being able to fix fairly new ones. I'm sticking with this 1978 model-not a farmer, but I use them for keeping up the Ponderosa.

[Keith Outten]

This thread can only survive is everyone leaves the political side of the issue out of the conversation.

Although I am not up to speed on the current situation I have seen this topic discussed many times over the last few years. I believe the outcome will be decided based on whether people understand that Farmers are not "Just Farmers", they are our direct link to the food that keeps us alive not just in our country but in a variety of nations all of the world. My family have been farmers on the Eastern Shore of Virginia since the 1600's so you can imagine which side of this issue I am standing. Manufacturers for the most part have always been given complete control over their patents and have reserved the rights to establish the rules concerning their products. This is a unique situation that should supersede the typical interpretation of the legal issues involved so I believe that access to any and all parts and software should not be protected, it needs to be provided as part of any sales agreement because the situation warrants this level of access. This is greed measured against what is best for people. I think its fair for manufacturers to be compensated for their software and if the price is to high farmers can shop elsewhere. Farmers should not be held hostage after the sale.

If I purchase an automobile and decide to take it apart or modify it in any way that is my business because I own it. The manufacturer may at its discretion void my warranty but that is their only recourse. Currently in the All Terrain Vehicle world lots of people are purchasing software to custom tune their machines and to my knowledge not one manufacturer has challenged the owners right to do so yet.

As Spock said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

[Matt Schrum]

One of my "hacking" websites (in the sense of hacking together projects) has touched on this a few times. For folks not familiar with what is going on, the two short articles below do a decent job and giving you the cliff notes.

2018 article: https://hackaday.com/2018/02/11/will-john-deere-finally-get-their-dmca-comeuppance/
2020 article: https://hackaday.com/2020/03/09/john-deere-and-nebraskas-right-to-repair-the-aftermath-of-a-failed-piece-of-legislation/

[Brian Elfert]

One issue in the automotive world is emissions. A lot of third party software is not EPA approved for emissions. Shops have gotten in trouble for selling programmers and other accessories that violate EPA rules.

[David Bassett]

One issue in the automotive world is emissions. A lot of third party software is not EPA approved for emissions. Shops have gotten in trouble for selling programmers and other accessories that violate EPA rules.

Shops? Not just shops, how about VW and Bosch? (And others since.)

Still upset about their "clean diesel" con.

[Brian Elfert]

They were not selling third party programs or accessories that were not EPA approved.

[Ole Anderson]

Viewed this take on it from a farmers perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JCh0owT4w&t=12s

[Jim Koepke]

Your window of cultivating, planting, fertilizing, harvesting may be just a few days, or even hours between weather events. Loose your whole crop due to a bad wire harness? Devastating.

My father told me this was the reason many farms had air strips and a small plane in his youth.

If a tractor needed a part, they couldn't wait for it to show up in the mail. The farmer flew to where the part was and brought it home them self.

So many folks think all a farmer does is put seeds in the ground and watch stuff grow until it is time to harvest.

To me, farmers are adept at doing so many things they couldn't find any other job as satisfying.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

A small aside.... In the EU there is a move afoot to make small electronics like phones meet a "right to repairable". Saves waste etc.

[michael langman]

I read a long article about this last week, and it did not surprise me, after what happened to the JD dealership in the town across the river from me.

They were shut down by JD after 115 years of excellent service to all the farms in my area. They were not bringing in enough money for JD to care about them.
JD is turning it's back on the small dealerships and the small farmers.

The man bringing suit against JD is a farmer turned mechanic who trys to keep the older tractors running for them, because the newer tractors are not as reliable, and risk crop failure and enormous repair bills with no safety nets. These are farmers with smaller farms. They are truly afraid for their futures.

[Ronald Blue]

The manufacturers (primarily John Deere) claim that they have the right to control the software. They won't even allow the farmer the access needed to diagnose the equipment. What i don't know is if they will even sell them the John Deere Service Adviser software subscription. Everything has computers these days. I worked on a Cat backhoe that has 4 computers. Engine, chassis, hydraulics, and one more that slips my mind at the moment. While we have diagnostic capabilities and can do some calibration procedures we can't change some things, only view/monitor them. As I understand it John Deere is trying to force them to use the dealer to diagnose and repair the equipment. This is rapidly coming to a head as several states are discussing enacting "right to repair" laws.
The difference I see here from the automotive industry is that you can buy a code reader or a computer analyzer and see what the fault codes are. When you get into offroad equipment it becomes a different world. They don't play by the same rules. It's common to be charged for "product improvement items" when in reality they didn't get it right the first time. However they make you pay to fix their mistakes. That's not right but it's the way it is.
The manufacturers put some ridiculous stuff out there. Trying to validate their position. I won't go into that because it has few facts and lot's of bull in it. Maybe this time something will change. Time will tell.

[Jim Koepke]

It's common to be charged for "product improvement items" when in reality they didn't get it right the first time. However they make you pay to fix their mistakes. That's not right but it's the way it is.

It is also this way with home appliances. The consumer has no protection from corporate a entity wanting to have enough control over the item you purchase to get regular contributions from your wallet.

jtk

[Curt Harms]

I read a long article about this last week, and it did not surprise me, after what happened to the JD dealership in the town across the river from me.

They were shut down by JD after 115 years of excellent service to all the farms in my area. They were not bringing in enough money for JD to care about them.
JD is turning it's back on the small dealerships and the small farmers.

The man bringing suit against JD is a farmer turned mechanic who trys to keep the older tractors running for them, because the newer tractors are not as reliable, and risk crop failure and enormous repair bills with no safety nets. These are farmers with smaller farms. They are truly afraid for their futures.

Mahindra or somebody will come along and fill that market need. Ask the "big 3" what happened when they chose to ignore the quality small car market.

[Mark Bolton]

That's one reason I'm completely redoing the guts of my 1978 John Deere. One dealer told me that "they didn't have a mechanic smart enough to redo the reverser" that needed work. In the process of working on it myself, I've found all sorts of stuff done wrong the last time one of them went in it. I've heard horror stories on them not being able to fix fairly new ones. I'm sticking with this 1978 model-not a farmer, but I use them for keeping up the Ponderosa.

Gah that second photo gives me a stomach ache. Ive had to break my tractor in half a few times and for whatever reason I hate that process. Sliding it back together either goes slicker than snot or not at all. One time I had to remake the RTV gasket like 10 times because I struggled to get it to slide back together so long I was worried the RTV skinned over.

Yuck. My machine has 5 splined shafts that all have to slide together timed just right.

[Frederick Skelly]

Mahindra or somebody will come along and fill that market need. Ask the "big 3" what happened when they chose to ignore the quality small car market.

+1. I was thinking much the same thing Curt.

[Brian Elfert]

It is pretty much impossible to meet the new EPA requirements for larger offroad diesel engines without electronics of some sort. The real difference between manufacturers is how they handle the diagnostics software and equipment necessary to access the electronics.

My employer has a garage to repair a fleet of vehicles. The software and hardware to do diagnostics costs several thousand dollars for each brand of engine. There is also a yearly subscription fee of $400 to $1000 on top of the initial purchase cost.

[Bill Dufour]

In California Diesels over 25? hp have to meet current emissions laws. They have to be upgraded or tossed even stuff like irrigation pumps which are 50 years old.
Bil lD

[Jerome Stanek]

In California Diesels over 25? hp have to meet current emissions laws. They have to be upgraded or tossed even stuff like irrigation pumps which are 50 years old.
Bil lD

That's why people are leaving Cali

[Tom M King]

Gah that second photo gives me a stomach ache. Ive had to break my tractor in half a few times and for whatever reason I hate that process. Sliding it back together either goes slicker than snot or not at all. One time I had to remake the RTV gasket like 10 times because I struggled to get it to slide back together so long I was worried the RTV skinned over.

Yuck. My machine has 5 splined shafts that all have to slide together timed just right.

I had plenty of helpers that offered to help, just for fun. It ended up being a fun time for all. I actually split it twice. Once between the engine, and clutch housing, to redo the forward clutch pack, and then between the clutch housing, and the rear end to redo the reverse brake. That splitting stand I made using scaffolding feet allowed a little tilting, and didn't require taking off the loader brackets. I used some outside measuring dividers to get the spacing perfect, top, and bottom, before we eased it together.

Both rejoins required some back, and forth, and adjusting splines, and gears, but it wasn't too bad, with all the help. No RTV required with all new gaskets.

That's a 70hp Category 2 tractor. If I ever split a bigger one, I'll either buy, or make a rail system for the two halves. Anything larger would be too much to manhandle.

I replaced every wear part in the reverser system, including a new transmission pump, and all new oil lines, not using aftermarket parts, and have $3200 in parts. It would have been at least a 15,000 job, and not as particular a rebuild as I did. It's as strong as a new one now, and operates a lot quieter.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Our son, a couple years back got a call from local heavy equipment dealer. Seems they had a loader with "joy stick" controls, that not only had their shop guys, but factory service guy couldn't fix. Wanted to know if he was willing to tackle problem, which he did. First he got a copy of service manual and read it. Then he asked what had been done, all of which he undid. Second day he put it all back together. Dealer offered him a job on the spot, but he refused. He owns his own business, with a waiting list of others wanting his services. As a side note to this thread, the second richest man in Canada owns a string of JD dealers.

[Tom M King]

Amazing how straight forward it is when you go by the service manual. Anyone who had ever worked on this old tractor of mine, which had been more than once, with dealers at least twice, obviously did not do that, but tried to figure it out on their own.

[Ronald Blue]

Printed service manuals are becoming scarce. They want to do it all online or in digital format. Huge price difference too. Printing is expensive these days.

Joystick not functioning? Only two styles. Electric or hydraulic. Hydraulic is normally pilot operated. You only have to set the pressure on those. Commonly around 500 PSI sometimes lower. Electric uses proportional control if it's a progressive control. Some joy sticks have to be programmed for the correct voltage outputs. They have a circuit board in them and an EPROM. Erasable programmable read only memory=EPROM. Not knowing the machine there are certainly specialized variations but that's the commonly found versions.

[Mark Bolton]

If I ever split a bigger one, I'll either buy, or make a rail system for the two halves.

That was the route I went. I setup a set of rails and leveled the tractor left loader on and front end on the ground to keep the trans from rotating and slid the rear straight back on the rails (no rear wheels). I thought it was a perfect solution in that one slide back together dry would get everything aligned, make the RTV gasket, and slip it back together. For whatever reason even with 3-4 smooth dry runs something would foul up on the wet run lol. The rear cases on this were all RTV'd from Massey and I was more comfortable with that long term than any conventional gasket.

Absolutely smart to swap everything possible while your in there or at least thorough inspection. I know a lot of guys that enjoy that work but its not what I consider a good use of my time lol.