Reversed Fritz and Franz Jig Mk 2

[Derek Cohen]

Those who understand how a Fritz and Frans jig can revolutionise a sliding table saw, generally use a long slider table, and push the work piece against the far fence.


This one is courtesy of Google ...


https://i.postimg.cc/wM9hjt2Z/FF.jpg


If you have no experience with this jig, view this short video ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVUgjr_Iw1w


Those with a shorter slider table, such as mine (1250mm/49"), can still use the slider to rip, however this is less simple. For a start, the crosscut fence is at the beginning of the slider table ...


https://i.postimg.cc/3NRhm2y3/5a.jpg


... and attempts to replicate the larger sliders involve building a crosscut fence at the end. This was my Fritz & Frans jig ...


https://i.postimg.cc/g2fKrMmY/10a.jpg


It worked for ripping ...


https://i.postimg.cc/9Qf7PQ2D/13a.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/GmhZCD8f/2.jpg


... but it was a pain to have to set up the far crosscut fence each time.


It occurred to me that I was doing this all wrong. What was suitable for a long sliding table was not suitable for a short sliding table. Their crosscut fences were at opposite ends. Therefore I decided to build a reversed F&F jig, that is, where the work piece was pushed against the crosscut fence at the beginning of the sliding table. The first build was to test the idea. This worked well enough to build the current version ...


https://i.postimg.cc/d1jswDLh/FF1a.jpg


This is the sliding section ...


https://i.postimg.cc/kgLXyk0g/FF5a.jpg


The Incra fence has stops for accurate measurement of width. The front edge has non-slip.


There is a scale to set the stops ..


https://i.postimg.cc/BQYvj8ND/FF8a.jpg


The handle at the rear is important ...


https://i.postimg.cc/SRQysqMD/FF4a.jpg


I suspect that no one else has built a reversed F&F, and the reason for not doing so is that pushing the work piece against the front fence, and also pulling the slider past the fence, are incompatible actions.


For this reason the handle at the rear serves to control the entire action: Push the work piece against the fence, then twist the handle and lock it in place ...


https://i.postimg.cc/63XWkC5s/FF7a.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/SRQysqMD/FF4a.jpg


A little while ago, I began working towards this design by adding a zero clearance extension to the crosscut fence ...


https://i.postimg.cc/0yfwT6DT/FF2a.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/cLvLws5z/FF3a.jpg


Now this enables very accurate rips using the sliding table ...


https://i.postimg.cc/5tv9KsJq/FF2a.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Erik Loza]

Awesome. Thanks for sharing,

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Excellent craftsmanship there!

[johnny means]

Took me a minute to catch what was being done. Does the fence on a short slider not slide to any point on the table?

[Rod Sheridan]

Took me a minute to catch what was being done. Does the fence on a short slider not slide to any point on the table?

The fence on the outrigger can be positioned almost anywhere.

The fence that attaches to the table directly is at the front only.

My F&F doesn't use a crosscut fence as a stop so I put it wherever I want...........Rod.

[Derek Cohen]

Took me a minute to catch what was being done. Does the fence on a short slider not slide to any point on the table?

Johnny, the fence (on the Hammer K3) cannot be moved forward from the start of the sliding table. It remains at the foot of the slider, pushed against an immovable stop, where it may only be altered to the angle of choice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

Just to clarify for folks not familiar with sliding table saws, the behavior that Derek is explaining in the most previous post to this one is specific to that particular model machine. Many sliders do permit repositioning a "miter fence" like that so it can be optimal for a given job. Mine is moveable and I sometimes will move it forward so I'm not extending the front end of my slider wagon "way out there" (it's not a short stroke like Derek's) if I need clearance for something else I'm working on. My Fritz and Franz jig is setup similar to his and can be positioned pretty much anywhere, although I generally use my outrigger fence as a limit for the F&F fixture for that end of the cut because I can use the existing cam clamp to lock it down. These things are SO adaptable to however one wants or needs to work!

[Rod Sheridan]

Johnny, the fence (on the Hammer K3) cannot be moved forward from the start of the sliding table. It remains at the foot of the slider, pushed against an immovable stop, where it may only be altered to the angle of choice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, isn’t that true for only the crosscut fence that mounts directly to the table?

The fence on my outrigger mounts in 2 positions and the outrigger table can be mounted almost anywhere on the sliding table.....Regards, Rod

[Derek Cohen]

Rod, the shorter sliders, such as mine, do not have an outrigger. The crosscut fence mounts to a single, specific position, and it cannot be moved from this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, the shorter sliders, such as mine, do not have an outrigger. The crosscut fence mounts to a single, specific position, and it cannot be moved from this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi, what size slider do you have?

Mine has the 49 inch table and I ordered it with an outrigger....Rod

[johnny means]

I find the idea of a slider without on outrigger to be puzzling. Especially as it would seem to apply mostly to smaller machines.

[johnny means]

Actually, I see now the the OPs saw does have a small outrigger.

[Derek Cohen]

Actually, I see now the the OPs saw does have a small outrigger.

This is the saw, photo taken a couple of years ago ..

https://i.postimg.cc/76FDZ9tw/11a.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rod Sheridan]

I find the idea of a slider without on outrigger to be puzzling. Especially as it would seem to apply mostly to smaller machines.

Hi, I use mine mostly for solid wood furniture so the outrigger hangs on the wall most of the time.

For cross cutting solids I don't use the outrigger unless it's sheet goods, for solids the crosscut fence is fine.

Now, when you need the outrigger, it really shines, a small saw that can support and crosscut a sheet of material is great........Rod.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi, I use mine mostly for solid wood furniture so the outrigger hangs on the wall most of the time.

For cross cutting solids I don't use the outrigger unless it's sheet goods, for solids the crosscut fence is fine.

Now, when you need the outrigger, it really shines, a small saw that can support and crosscut a sheet of material is great........Rod.

Ditto. I build one-off items of furniture in solid wood. As a result, the work pieces processed are shorter rips or crosscuts. I do not need the capacity to process sheet goods.

The shorter slider wagon works just fine for 90% of rip cuts. I also have the rip fence set up now with the Jessem Clear Cut Saw Guides, which are really excellent and actively add to sawing accurately and cleanly (because they pull the work piece against the fence) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/QNct6hHL/FenceG.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

I find the idea of a slider without on outrigger to be puzzling. Especially as it would seem to apply mostly to smaller machines.

Short stroke sliders can be different animals and often do not have the larger outriggers for supporting sheet goods. The smaller miter fence provides the same level of crosscut accuracy but does not have material support like an outrigger does.

Like Ron, I work mostly (percentage wise) with solid stock on my slider. I do leave my outrigger on the machine as it's convenient for holding workpieces I'm running through my J/P and now that I moved my CMS upstairs to the lumber storage area, I do more crosscutting of longer stock on the slider down in the shop. I mostly use the smaller miter fence that's similar to what Derek has on his machine for cutting.

[Derek Cohen]

Just a quick update on the zero clearance ends for the crosscut fence and also the F&F jig. Note that these ends are not intended to prevent spelching (breakout), but rather to aid in lining up the ends of a board.

Just a reminder, the ZC ends are UHMW. They are held in with a steel hex bolt, which is recessed out of harm's way.

The ends of the crosscut fence at 90 degrees ...

https://i.postimg.cc/dtWRNXcX/cc4a.jpg

The purpose of reducing the height was to enable the blade to be lowered and also to clear the side of the blade guard.

https://i.postimg.cc/sgvYkcV2/cc5a.jpg

The F&F jig was treated similarly ...

https://i.postimg.cc/NfG74tSm/cc6a.jpg

A ZI end was also made for the crosscut fence when sawing at 45 degrees ...

https://i.postimg.cc/L52kGFXd/cc1a.jpg

The bolt looks close, but it is not in danger of being struck by the blade ..

https://i.postimg.cc/2yGdD9b1/cc2a.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/8kmmMcKT/cc3a.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

Excellent solutions, Derek.

[Erik Loza]

Awesome stuff, Derek. I've been saying this for years: There's a huge market for little add-ons like this for Euro machines. I don't mean $$$ things like Brian Lamb's or Mac Campshure's stuff but things like ZCI's, splinter tongues, Suva-type guards, etc. There must be someone out there with a 3-D printer and tabletop CNC who is nerdy enough to get into it. Dead-serious about this: If that person is out there, drop me a line.

Erik

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Jim and Erik.

Erik, Jim has a CNC, and he has experience in making these thingies (recent thread) ... but he is not a nerd. Does that disqualify him? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

Who are you saying isn't a nerd, Derek? 28 Years in the IT and telecom space probably at least partially qualifies me for nerd-hood. LOL