First time using loose tenons

[Justin Rapp]

I am making 2 face frame vanities (Door, 3 drawers and the false drawer. I used a 1/4 inch upcut bit in a router with template guide along with a jig I made to create the mortises. I created the loose tenons from 1x1.5x.25 pieces of wood made from the same maple being used for the face frame.

The first one in is now clamped up and glue drying, using titebond extend wood glue. This stuff is really liquid compared to other titebond glues. It drips everywhere. Hopefully it works well. I am hoping the tenons give it the surface area needed to hold it all together.

[Jim Dwight]

Justin,

Congratulations! Mortise and tenon joints are not the easiest and are one of the best wood working joints. A plunge router makes in my experience nicer mortises than does my hollow chisel mortiser. My domino takes less setup than a router but doesn't make mortises any nicer. I haven't used titebond extended but I've always had good luck with other types of titebond.

Jim

[Bruce Wrenn]

Do a search for the Morley Mortiser. Easily duplicated, and slick as a whistle. His method of locating center line is based upon something I learned in drafting 101, back in 1966.

[David Eisenhauer]

Justin if you push two dry (not yet glued) parts together and can hold them up without anything falling apart as a pre glue up test, they should be strong enough after the glue dries to hold together for a long time. The trick with M&T assembly is getting the tenons just fat enough to fit fairly/very snugly in the mortises. Lots of folks use liquid hide glue for this work because it offers decent open working time and the LHG tends to lubricate the joints during assembly rather than grab as yellow glue tends to do. Plus, the LHG is easier to reverse if you have to take something apart to fix a screw up. M&T work is a cornerstone to furniture building IMO. Have fun.

[Justin Rapp]

Justin,

Congratulations! Mortise and tenon joints are not the easiest and are one of the best wood working joints. A plunge router makes in my experience nicer mortises than does my hollow chisel mortiser. My domino takes less setup than a router but doesn't make mortises any nicer. I haven't used titebond extended but I've always had good luck with other types of titebond.

Jim

This is not my first time with Mortise and Tenon's. I use them often enough, but my first time doing a loose tenon instead of cutting the mortise out of the end of the wood. Trying to do my 'cheap' version of a domino, since i already have the router!!! All other titebond i've use is amazing stuff. We'll see how this holds up.

[Justin Rapp]

Justin if you push two dry (not yet glued) parts together and can hold them up without anything falling apart as a pre glue up test, they should be strong enough after the glue dries to hold together for a long time. The trick with M&T assembly is getting the tenons just fat enough to fit fairly/very snugly in the mortises. Lots of folks use liquid hide glue for this work because it offers decent open working time and the LHG tends to lubricate the joints during assembly rather than grab as yellow glue tends to do. Plus, the LHG is easier to reverse if you have to take something apart to fix a screw up. M&T work is a cornerstone to furniture building IMO. Have fun.

Yup - they were tight, had to tap most of them, so i hope the glue sets well. This wasn't liquid hide glue, it was titebond extend wood glue.

[John TenEyck]

Loose tenons almost make cutting joinery fun, especially when you cut them on a horizontal router mortiser. If you plan to use them often take a look at my machine, with free plans to build one.

https://sites.google.com/site/jteneyckwoodworker/current-projects/horizontal-router-mortiser

John

[Jim Becker]

I've been a fan of loose tenon for a very long time...which did make it easier for me to invest in the Domino I now use for the purpose. I like loose tenon joinery because it takes away some of the work that I personally find to be drudgery; admittedly the kind of work that some folks truly enjoy...fitting mortises and tenons. It's good to have choices!

[bill epstein]

I think it was Tage Frid who said, "if you need a hammer, it's too tight. If you can use your hat, too loose".

[Mick Simon]

One trick with loose tenons is to first glue the tenon into the what would otherwise be the integral tenon piece and let it set up. Then glue up the assembly. Makes glueing up the final assembly much easier with a lot less scrambling to get glue on all surfaces.

[Chris Fournier]

One trick with loose tenons is to first glue the tenon into the what would otherwise be the integral tenon piece and let it set up. Then glue up the assembly. Makes glueing up the final assembly much easier with a lot less scrambling to get glue on all surfaces.

The truth!

[glenn bradley]

Another fan here. For larger, more complex glue ups I glue the tenon into one part or the other to make a fixed tenon. This is the exception and for most assemblies I float the tenon during assembly. Neither is right for all situations. Sounds like you are doing fine.

[Justin Rapp]

One trick with loose tenons is to first glue the tenon into the what would otherwise be the integral tenon piece and let it set up. Then glue up the assembly. Makes glueing up the final assembly much easier with a lot less scrambling to get glue on all surfaces.

This is a good idea. I've got another frame to glue up, I was just cutting the mortises. Had to stop for another reason but have a few more to go before I can start the glue-up.


The first one came out of the clamps this morning and is perfect!

[Jim Becker]

Mick's idea is sound, but you also want those tenons to be "ideally sized" if you're only going to do one side first. There can't be any movement at all or they may not be truly perpendicular and that will mess up subsequent glue up. If there's any play, either re-make the tenons or do the whole glue up at once and check very carefully for square while clamping. This doesn't mean the tenons have to be super tight, but they need to be snug with no wiggle room.

[John TenEyck]

I try to do the glue up all at once. I guess I'm not good enough to make perfect laterally aligned mortises in the mating parts with perfect fitting loose tenons so I often need a little wiggle room during glue up. If I need more time to accomplish the glue up I either only glue up a portion of the joints, then the remaining after those are set it that's possible, or change to a glue with a longer working time. Epoxy is my go to for long, complicated glue ups, but I'm thinking of giving Titebond Polyurethane glue another look as it has a long working time (and much higher strength at high temperature than any of the other TB products).

John

[Mick Simon]

Guess I should have mentioned that for loose tenons I make the "tenon side" mortise fit snuggly and the mortise side with a little wiggle room. I usually use a Domino and set the mortise width to the narrow (actual) width of the domino tenon. For the mortise side, I place the hairline cursor just on the outside of my mark, plunge, then place it on the other side of the mark and plunge. This still gives me a little wiggle room, but not a sloppy joint. I don't like setting the width of the mortise to the middle or wide settings except for shelves, etc.

[Mike Cutler]

One more tip for the loose tenons, in addition to the great tips already mentioned, is to cut a slight groove, the length of the tenon, on both sides. This allows the glue to squeeze out from the bottom of the joint ,and not hydraulically try to force the loose tenon back out as the joint is compressed.
Credit to Mark Singer for this subtle tip.

[Justin Rapp]

One more tip for the loose tenons, in addition to the great tips already mentioned, is to cut a slight groove, the length of the tenon, on both sides. This allows the glue to squeeze out from the bottom of the joint ,and not hydraulically try to force the loose tenon back out as the joint is compressed.
Credit to Mark Singer for this subtle tip.

I did this today. Made a slight grove on each side 2/3 lengthwise. I did 2/3 so that the two groves are not back to back making a single part of the tenon too thin.

[Mike Cutler]

I did this today. Made a slight grove on each side 2/3 lengthwise. I did 2/3 so that the two groves are not back to back making a single part of the tenon too thin.

Justin

I should have been more descriptive.
What Mark did was to cut narrow grooves on both sides of the tenon, but on opposing sides. For example, as viewed from above, One groove would be left top, about a 1/16th deep, the other would be the right bottom, about 1/16th deep. This way glue could squeeze from both sides of the tenon, and both "shoulders".

[Jim Becker]

.
Credit to Mark Singer for this subtle tip.

I really miss him and his wonderful insights. I learned a lot from him here and when I visited his beautiful shop years ago. RIP

[lowell holmes]

One of these makes it easy,

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=E211US739G0&p=biscuit+joiner

[Justin Rapp]

Justin

I should have been more descriptive.
What Mark did was to cut narrow grooves on both sides of the tenon, but on opposing sides. For example, as viewed from above, One groove would be left top, about a 1/16th deep, the other would be the right bottom, about 1/16th deep. This way glue could squeeze from both sides of the tenon, and both "shoulders".

This is exactly what i did.

[Justin Rapp]

One of these makes it easy,

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=E211US739G0&p=biscuit+joiner

I have a biscuit joiner, however 2 things, biscuits are no where near as strong, and the face frame is 1 1/2 inch - so to narrow for a biscuit jointer.

[Warren Lake]

table saw and you can make a pro door
cope and stick cutters and you can make a lower quality door
lamello, why not find a new hobby, the whole point of a hobby is to learn stuff and do it well instead of what gizmo can I get so I never have to do it.

[Jim Dwight]

I started another dresser for my house today and decided to use my domino more than I really need to. The plans call for dados to locate the dividers, for instance, and I decided to use a couple 6mm dominos instead. I made them all the way through the sides so they will be decorative. I will make the dividers as frames to save material and weight and will join them with 6mm dominos too. I might change my mind and use my normal half blind dovetails for the drawers but I am thinking of trying 5mm dominos there. I made up more 6mm domino stock after completeing the glueup and milling out of the sides. I think I'll save the 5 frames for tomorrow.

To make stock for dominos, I take a piece of scrap that is big enough, rip it slightly thicker than needed, plane it to final thickness, rip it to final width, and then round the edges on the router table. I made enough for about 150 dominos in a few minutes today. Machine setup takes the most time so it's best to make a reasonable amount while you have the setup completed. I messed up and made the first two mortises with the wide setting of my XL. So I decided to just make the top and bottom mortises bigger - emphasize it rather than try and find a way to hide it. So then I needed wider tenons but I had a piece almost the right size so it worked out well. I would have had to do something different if I was stuck with using pre made tenons. I'll cut the longer pieces of prepared tenon stock later on the table saw using a sled. I've used my big one previously but I'm thinking of just making a little one for this and putting lines on it for the typical lengths.

[Mike Cutler]

I really miss him and his wonderful insights. I learned a lot from him here and when I visited his beautiful shop years ago. RIP

I agree. We were very fortunate to have him on the forum.
Tremendously talented individual, and just a really nice person.