Quality carving tools at affordable price?

[michael langman]

I have been looking for good carving tools to begin carving, and came across Schaaf Tools.
They seem too good to be true, but get excellent reviews from 2 professional carvers that have many years of experience and also have schools for wood carving. You tube videos reviews are out there.
I know the members here say not to buy sets of tools or cheap tools, but these may just be the tools to start out with if money is an obstacle for anyone.
Let me know if you have used these tools, or just thoughts on what you all think.

Thanks, Mike

[Josko Catipovic]

From the few that I saw, it's junk. You get what you pay for,

[michael langman]

From the few that I saw, it's junk. You get what you pay for,


In the reviews online by the carvers with much experience, and used these tools to complete a large carving project, they stated that the tools while not being as nice in appearance as ones that cost up to 5 times as much, they did hold an edge and performed at the same level, when it came to holding an edge and resharpening.
That is why I asked if anyone has used these tools. And also to let carvers not as wealthy as others to maybe give them a try and respond.

[Josko Catipovic]

Sorry if i was terse earlier, but we had to completely regrind the edges of all three tools we tried. I suppose one could look at it as saving money by buying blunt tools. If it's worth your while to regrind and then hone them before use, they could be a good deal.

[michael langman]

`No problem Josko, It's hard not to over react sometimes.

They do state in the ads on Amazon that if you do not wish to hone the edges of the tools, out of the box, then to not buy their tools.

One of the wood carving teachers did bring this up, and demonstrated how to touch up a gouge on his pedestal grinder, with a simple fixture made of wood that he uses.

I will try to find the video for others to see, if they are interested.

Thanks for your reply.

[michael langman]

Schaaf woodcarvcing tools evaluation, by The Carving Shop, on youtube is one of the reviews if anyone is interested.

[Mike Henderson]

It wouldn't bother me if they came blunt, as long as they were good steel, had a handle that fit my hand, and were well balanced. I generally resharpen and reshape my carving tools anyway. And there's an adage in carving - "If you can't sharpen, you can't carve".

You have to keep your tools sharp in order to do good work. And occasionally, you drop one and it always seems to hit edge first which requires some major resharpening.

I power sharpen my carving tools, including power stropping, so it's not as much work as if I had to do it all by hand.

My major objection to the tools is that they appear to only come as sets. Sets usually have some tools that you won't use, and once you get going, you want to add to your tools individually. It would be nice if they sold the tools individually. Maybe they do and I just didn't see it on the website.

They look similar to the Pfeil carving tools and they appear to use the same Swiss marking system.

Mike

[michael langman]

Mike, The Schaaf Co. has said they are thinking about selling individual tools in the future. They say they have listened to carvers in their research about which tools to put into sets. And have made sets accordingly. A hundred bucks for 12 tools sounds questionable, but then peoples experiences may help answer that question here.
I am with you on the sharpening. It is something that we will all have to do anyway, so not too big a deal.
The Carving Shop on Youtube has shown a fairly simple way to sharpen edges with a pedestal grinder and some paper cut to bevel angles to use as a guide.
While his ways at testing chisel hardness with an automatic prick punch does not impress me too much, he does have much more experience then I do.
Thanks for your opinion. It means something coming from an experienced carver like yourself.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Update?
Did you get the set? Inquiring minds want to know........
As you initially said, looks too good to be true, and I could spring for them given the above problems.

[michael langman]

No I have not gotten them yet Kyle. Spring has gotten in the way of my wood working at this time.

I will definitely post about the chisels if and when I get them though.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Thanks for the update!
Living in Hawaii, I'm not sure what spring means. :) I see you're in cold country.....
Are you more or less inclined to make the jump?
I'm on the fence. My carving skills leave a lot to be desired and currently have 3 "good" chisels. Most are trash/cheapos. Wondering if I invest in a semi good set if that will help. Not tried sharpening carving tools yet. I hone and strop mine which is different than sharpen, from what I gather.

[Steve Bistritz]

In my experience if you are just starting out and not used to sharpening this may not be the way to go...sharpening is another skill set to learn just like carving...if you try to learn carving with dull tools you will lose interest and may also hurt yourself...i havent been carving very long and started with a knife i swore was sharp...till i ran into a guy with experience that set me straight...i would have stopped by now for sure...just my 2 cents...remember to enjoy the ride...very satisfying!

[michael langman]

Kyle, If you search for you tube videos of Schaaf Tools reviews there is a professional carver,"The Carving Shop", and he demonstrates how to sharpen carving chisels from Schaaf Tools.

It is a fairly simple way using paper as a guide and a pedestal grinder with a wooden base for the tool.

In another video by a professional wood carver, he carved a project with the Schaaf Tools and reviewed them in the process. The steel held up very well and the ergonamics were similar to the Pfeils in use.

Both reviews seemed pretty good and similar in their regards to the tools.
Good steel and heat treating,and the tools were formed well in regaurd to each tools use.

If you do get them let us know what you think.

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

I believe that learning to sharpen comes before learning to carve. What good are dull tools? Carving with them will instill bad habits.

[Warren West]

As to the idea of the Schaaf tools not coming carving sharp or with the right grind in the first place. None do in my opinion. I've rebevelled and sometimes reshaped every single (about 100) carving tool I've ever purchased. That includes Ashley Iles, Stubai, Pfiel, Henry Taylor, Dastra, Two Cheeries, Lamp, Master Carver, Stryi. The Stryi and Pfeil were the only ones that came decently sharp. In some cases the handles need a bit of work to be comfortable as well.

Don't let how the tool comes dictate what you get. You'll need to fix it to carve anyway. Of course the best tools are European but I have a couple Chinese tools that while not up to the European in fit and finish have very good steel. Always buy the best YOU can afford.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Ok. Long post. Get a beer. I'll wait......
Just got a set of the afore mentioned cheapo tools. Spent 2 hours honing. I checked Amazon and they have it listed, so if you were waiting, can get them. I checked because i was sure they said they include a beginners ebook, which I can't find......
My qualifications.... None. I can't sharpen. Yet. I can hone/strop...... I have lots to learn.
Impressions. What the site is true. if you can't sharpen, (me) may not be wise to buy the tools. I can sharpen skews and flat chisels.
Oh, I'm a woodturner, and what I'm looking for is to augment my feeble skills.
I'm not a metallurgist, so I have no clue on the steel quality, but I do think it's good steel. I ran my series of diamond hones, 325/600/1200. and tried in vain to sharpen. I do own 3 and only 3 good tools. One of them is a Pfiel V-tool which, I actually do know how to "sharpen". Have yet to take the others to the grinder. I do agree that Amazon is correct about not knowing how to sharpen. Given my limited carving tool sharpening skills, I can't see how they sharpened half of the tools. BUT as they say, you need to know how to sharpen.
I cannot agree that they are "junk", I do own several JUNK tools, and these are pretty good as far as I can tell. The V-tool and the flat chisels work pretty good in my limited experience. The others, since I have yet to take it to the grinder and actually sharpen, yet to be determined.
If they again appear on Amazon, I'd jump and get them. 100 bucks for a dozen chisels? CANNOT go wrong with that........
Oh, they have a real nice spoon gouge. I have a Sorby spoon and this one is smaller, and will fit nicely in my collection........
Buy them if you can. As a real novice non professional beginning clueless carver, I think it's money well spent. My Pfiel alone is almost what I paid. How can you possibly go wrong. As mentioned, you NEED to know how to sharpen before you can carve. These need to be sharpened, not honed.
Last observation, they are not physically as "big" as the other name brands that I have, meaning they will have less tool life with continued sharpenings. Handles are well finished, NOT to my personal liking, too much varnish/oil/finish for me.
My $0.02. Bottom line....... You get what you pay for. These, are a BARGAIN. Get them. No Fail. If you only use the 2 flats and the V, money ahead. I finally went over the edge due to the insanity of staying at home. Need more hobbies. CV-19. Be safe, stay home do some woodworking.
Aloha.

[michael langman]

Thanks for the review Kyle. These are definitely the chisels you want to learn sharpening and upkeep on.

Carving chisels look to be quite intimidating to sharpen by hand; but with a light touch on the grinding wheels and a slow methodical approach you will be sharpening them better and faster before you know it. Check out the youtube post I posted earlier and you will get some good alternatives for sharpening.

Maybe some more experienced carvers can post their sharpening skills here or in a new post to help us beginners out.

I will be buying these chisels before winter. As you have said, some necessary carving chisels for not too much cost.

[Mike Henderson]

Here's (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/SharpeningDisk.htm) what I use to sharpen carving tools. But you need a lathe.

Mike

[Kyle Iwamoto]

You're welcome for the review Michael. I think it's a worthy of being an outstanding deal. Thanks for starting the post.
About sharpening, I do have a Tormek, and a lathe. And Mike, I've already copied your sharpening disk. I remember you posting it before. (?) Just curious though, I just made mine with a glue block, and mount it in my chuck when I need it. That way I don't have to sacrifice a faceplate. Which you seem to have really nice ones...... I mark where the #1 jaws sit on the block, and re clamping will be the same, and alignment is not an issue. I just need to learn how to sharpen these chisels. As I sadly admitted, I could not hand sharpen them. Should not be a problem on the Tormek. Just wanted to mention that I couldn't do it for the ones who may not have sharpening gear.
They do have the bevel on them, but far from "sharp". I was following the existing bevels. But, my hand sharpening skills are way lacking. I'm sure if you can hand sharpen, it would not be a problem since the factory bevels are there. Out of the box, they are fairly sharp, they did cut with some force, just not carving sharp.

[Dave Keele]

A member of our carving group was talking with Vic Hood and he recommended them to her. She bought the 12 piece unsharpened set (they are now available pre-sharpened) and asked me to sharpen them for her. It took about 2 hours to get them carving sharp…. that includes putting a few of them on a water wheel, as they needed to be reshaped. While I had them, I tried them out and found them to hold an edge for the 10 – 15 minutes I used them.

What I did notice is the QC in the manufacturing process may not be the same as the more expensive tools, such as Pfeil. ie: the V-groove (flute) of the parting tool (V-tool) was not centered, making one side thicker than the other. Since this tool seems to offer the beginner sharpener the most problems, the offset flute only compounds it. Since I have only worked with one set, this may not be an issue with all of them.

I know Joe Dillett (The Carving Shop) personally. (Some of you may remember him from ‘Carving Magazine’, where he had a recurring column called ‘Ask Joe’.) He is a very talented carver and an excellent teacher. You won’t find a nicer guy. I trust his opinion and believe his review of Schaaf tools to be his honest opinion. He wouldn’t have made that video if he believed otherwise.

I teach beginner carvers and always tell them to buy the best tools they can afford. If that means they can only afford the Schaaf, I would recommend them. I believe a real issue for the beginner is the sharpening. If they are not proficient at sharpening, or have readily access to someone who is, I would not recommend unsharpened tools. That being said, these tools would be good for one trying to learn to sharpen vs. a more expensive tool.

I do not believe Joe uses a pedestal grinder to sharpen his carving tools. I know he uses a hand drill, a Tormek, stones, diamond plates, and a home-made bench-top sharpener (and possibly other items), but nothing I know of that turns at a high RPM. (I know he sharpens… or use to… knives, etc. for other commercial business, so he may use a grinder for those…. I just don’t know.)

For anyone interested, I’m going to start a new thread on how I build a powered sharpener.

[michael langman]

Thanks for sharing your sharpening setup Michael. I don't have a lathe yet, but you show good ways to accomplish making them easier for us who haven't done it yet.

[michael langman]

I appreciate your comments Dave. Your sharpening setup looks like a good one and I will keep it in mind if my grizzly wet grinder does not work out.

[Alex Walter]

I started with flexcut interchangeable sets. I personally have the 11 pc (https://www.amazon.com/Flexcut-Craft-Carver-Collection/dp/B0065407QW?keywords=flexcut+interchangeable&qid=1537378725&sr=8-1-fkmrnull&ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1). and deluxe (https://www.amazon.com/Flexcut-Craft-Carver-Collection/dp/B001UXXTTK?keywords=flexcut%2Binterchangeable&qid=1537378725&sr=8-1-fkmrnull&ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1&th=1) set (https://onplanners.com/invitations/rustic-wedding). I still use them everyday alongside my more expensive tools
Iv'e also heard good things of ramelson tools, but personally have not used them, so maybe someone else can vouch for them.

[george wilson]

My favorite are the Pfiel brand that Woodcraft sells. They aren't the cheapest,though.

[Andrew Werby]

There was a fellow named Alexander Weygers, who was in Indonesia and got the bug to do some carving. He didn't like what was available there, but didn't have the money to import tools from Europe. So he set out to make his own. The resulting odyssey resulted in a couple of classic books: "The Modern Blacksmith", and "The Making of Tools" which explain how to upcycle various steel items, like old files, into whatever sort of steel cutting tools you need. I understand these books are rare and out of print now, but it seems that you can now download them for free in PDF or audiobook format, if you search around.

[michael langman]

George, If I was going to put in the hours that you did carving, then I would most likely look into the pfeil carving tools. Not to say that I would accomplish what you did either.

[michael langman]

Andrew . Making tools is right up my alley. You have piqued my interest in those books. Thanks.

[Andrew Hughes]

Most of my carving tools are Ashley iles. The steel is very good and I’ve gotten used to them. I bought them one or two at a time before the internet. If I had it to do over I would have bought Pfeil. I hardly ever strike them so palm gouges are a better choice for me.