The last word on "penultimate"

[Prashun Patel]

Derek Cohen's thread (https://sawmillcreek.org/search.php?searchid=13554582) got me thinking about the use of the word, penultimate. I hope he used the word in the way I understand it, because it means there are more posts to come.

I always thought penultimate means next to last.

However, I have heard more than one woodworker use it in a way that implies it to mean the last or the best; Dyami Plotke's website is called the Penultimate Woodshop.

I don't mean to cast penaspersions at anyone...

[Jim Koepke]

It seems my computer's dictionary agrees with you:

427705


I don't mean to cast penaspersions at anyone...

Especially not at my (or Rep. Louie Gohmert's R-TX) asparagus.

My asparagus is starting to show life, so this comes to mind every year at this time.

It does appear Derek has one more post coming this weekend.

jtk

[Andrew Seemann]

"Penultimate" had a vogue as a catchword in the '80s. Back then people didn't know what it meant either. It sounded cool, but people didn't know that it actually meant second to last. That typically was the opposite of what they meant to say.

[Jim Koepke]

Yep, a lot of people like to use a two dollar word when they only have a fifty cent dictionary.

jtk

[Bill Dufour]

I think they meant it was the last one before the ultimate. So second to last does actually make sense. Once you have made the perfect push stick you no longer change the design.
Bill D.

[Prashun Patel]

I usually hear it as if the speaker means "the best of the best".
I seem to remember it used wrt workbench design. It annoyed me....but now I'm thinking there's some kind of humility and poetry in there: This is the practical best that I can achieve, respecting that there is some, unattainable perfection out there.

I'm guessing Derek meant it as second to last, because it reassures the reader and whets his appetite for the finale.

"...too much time on my hands" (Styx)

[mike stenson]

I expect Derek to have one last post on this, when the finish is completed ;)

[Kev Williams]

ALMOST last COULD be second-to-last, but could be third, or fourth, or--- ;)

[glenn bradley]

Last but, for one. As in penultimate hop-popping in MPLS . . . Sorry, pre-retirement life rearing its head. :-)

[Jon Nuckles]

I have not heard it used incorrectly, though I rarely hear it. My favorite is antepenultimate: the last but two.

[Jim Koepke]

I usually hear it as if the speaker means "the best of the best".

Often when a speaker pronounces or uses a word incorrectly it makes me wonder if they really know what they are talking about.

The also makes me think about the word forte. In music it is pronounced fortay meaning forceful. When used to mark a person's strong point, or often to say something isn't a strong point, it is pronounced fort. At least until recently when so many have pronounced it incorrectly the formerly incorrect is now accepted as correct.


mid 17th century (in forte1 (sense 2) ; originally as fort): from French fort (masculine), forte (feminine) ‘strong’, from Latin fortis.


jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Jim, external links aren't encouraged, but type this into your browser. It's a fascinating listen...

http://
revisionisthistory.com/episodes/39-chutzpah-vs-chutzpah

[glenn bradley]

Often when a speaker pronounces or uses a word incorrectly it makes me wonder if they really know what they are talking about.

Language can be tricky. I would discourage someone who is trying to bestow a compliment by using a word that essentially means "almost" the ultimate :D. Those people are handing out a backhanded compliment unintentionally. :D:D:D


when so many have pronounced it incorrectly the formerly incorrect is now accepted as correct.

I find this practice discouraging but, that's just my Sheldon Cooper syndrome showing through. :) The American English language is a potpourri of morphed words and languages. I am sure glad I am a native speaker. With my many failed attempts to learn even the basics of another language, I'd be hopeless.

[John Stankus]

...

However, I have heard more than one woodworker use it in a way that implies it to mean the last or the best; Dyami Plotke's website is called the Penultimate Woodshop.

...

I always read Dyami's naming of his website, as the penultimate woodshop as being I almost have my shop the way I want it, my next shop will be the ultimate. (i.e. I'm getting close... but not quite there yet.)
But then again someone should ask Dyami.


John

[Jim Koepke]

Sheldon Cooper syndrome

Had to Google that since my TV viewing hasn't included Big Bang Theory.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

The TV people seem to get drills on how to pronounce specific words. And some of it is nothing but incorrect preferences
of the studio "teachers". They are now routinely pronouncing letters that are "silent". Hey, maybe they think they are
"giving them a voice" !

[Tom Stenzel]

I for one am not going to say anything about what words others use. Or how they pronounce them. English isn't my first language although it's the only one I have.

-Tom

[Jim Koepke]

I for one am not going to say anything about what words others use. Or how they pronounce them. English isn't my first language although it's the only one I have.

-Tom

Even with American English as my first language it isn't my place to correct others. It is hard enough even for a northern Californian to understand someone from southern California at times. Surely it is the same the other way around.

jtk

[Jason Roehl]

The more I am corrected, the more correct I will be!

[Zachary Hoyt]

I like using words that unnecessarily long and obsolete. Substituting extraforaneous for outside or outdoor is an easy one.
Zach

[Jim Koepke]

Substituting extraforaneous for outside or outdoor is an easy one.

Until you try to find out what it means:

427802

Of course if one likes to see the "deer in the headlights" look on people's faces it is a good word to know.

Though some might be disinclined to acquiesce in accepting the veracity of the orator.

jtk

[Zachary Hoyt]

I found it in my 1950s edition of the Oxford Universal Dictionary, but here's an online source:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/extraforaneous

[Jim Koepke]

I found it in my 1950s edition of the Oxford Universal Dictionary, but here's an online source:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/extraforaneous

One or more sources in my search mentioned it as being mostly of British usage. That of course required telling Google my search is for the word extraforaneous and not extemporaneous.

jtk

[Tyler Bancroft]

I have not heard it used incorrectly, though I rarely hear it. My favorite is antepenultimate: the last but two.


There's something to be said for preantepenultimate (everything but the last three).

[Ben Darrah]

https://i1.wp.com/zacharytotah.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Inigo-Montoya-Meme.jpg

[Rod Sheridan]

Language can be tricky. I would discourage someone who is trying to bestow a compliment by using a word that essentially means "almost" the ultimate :D. Those people are handing out a backhanded compliment unintentionally. :D:D:D



I find this practice discouraging but, that's just my Sheldon Cooper syndrome showing through. :) The American English language is a potpourri of morphed words and languages. I am sure glad I am a native speaker. With my many failed attempts to learn even the basics of another language, I'd be hopeless.


“Damned by faint praise”

Regards, Rod

[Stan Calow]

There is an ongoing perpetual debate among linguists, over whether dictionaries are meant to define words and their usage for people, or reflect the actual spoken language of people. I think words with clear Latin roots should stay close to those roots.

[Mark Gibney]

My pet peeve regarding mangled meaning of words is the way so many events are framed as being "ironic", when they are not. Often the events are a coincidence, but not in any way ironic.

I wish I could recall a clear example of this but it's late and I can't.

[Prashun Patel]

The whole Alannis Morisette song , Ironic has no irony in it. Ironically, that’s the real irony.