Thinking time vs cutting time

[Josko Catipovic]

I'm building an Art Nouveau ipe screen door and got myself down a dead-end street partway through the build. Something made a lot of sense on paper and not so much in wood. So I backed off and am taking a couple of days to think about it and figure out how to recover and continue. Fortunately I have a day job that lets me do this, but I wonder what folks' ratio of 'thinking' time to 'cutting' time is for an ambitious project.
I'm assuming pros can't take this kind of time to build a sellable item. Does that mean they have to work closer to their skills envelope (where one is less likely to get stuck)?

[Jim Matthews]

Most of us will only make a few things in our home shops; a dresser or chest of drawers, dining table maybe a kitchen remodel for those in stable relationships.

Few will ever make things like doors and windows, which appear simple - but operate under tight tolerances.

In practical terms, this means each project will involve a joint or construction the maker has never made.

The difference between professionals and the rest of us is repetition, from which mastery will arise.

If you're finishing projects, you're ahead of most.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Yes, for most hobbyists every build is a considerably different design and incorporates new techniques. So a lot of time is spent considering all of the details of those. I bet if I ever remade one of my pieces several times over, by the 3rd or 4th iteration it would take me less than half the time and be more cleanly made.

Also, Art Nouveau seems like one of the most time consuming styles. I doubt you see very many pros building AN pieces, there's a reason they tend to stick to Modern/mid-century stuff, even beyond client preference.

[Jim Koepke]

As mentioned above, repetition results in being sure in how something comes together.

On the first time around on a project, paralysis of analysis can afflict anyone.

If one does nothing, no mistakes are made. However, at times the biggest mistake is to do nothing.

One part of my current project has been tossing around in my mind for a while now. Making a partial mock up has helped to better formulate my plan.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Another to the list of repetition is good. The last workbench build took maybe a 1/4 of the time the first workbench built in the current shop. Most of the time saved was time spent figuring out how to do certain operations or better tooling, each time repeated will go a little faster than the last up to the point of proficiency.

ken

[Tony Zaffuto]

I like to think, then cut. Usually involves thinking again, tossing, some more thinking and then cut. I figure I'm doing pretty good if I only toss half my pieces out during assembly.

I have started building a "ship captain's desk" and I'm doing it differently than my typical projects. Usually I build the carcass, and then drawers. This one, I'm building all four drawers at one time, so all are sized the same. Next will come the carcass.

[Thomas Wilson]

I am interested in the Art Nouveau screen door and the problem you are having.

On cutting vs thinking, having a numbered cut list and a piece of chalk helps. Mark out and number the lumber. That is the thinking time. To actually cut, just take a deep breath and cut the longest piece first. If the wood is irreplaceable, repeat the cut list and marking a few times before proceeding to the last step. A sketch helps with figuring out the cut list.

[Andrew Hughes]

If it’s a new design I’m working at or the wood is precious I will make the piece out of cheap wood. Usually poplar.
Then the final piece I can move with quick confidence.
A lot of the work I do now is one off Art pieces. When making art we don’t think about time or money.

Good Luck

[Andrew Seemann]

I have found the less time I spend thinking, the more time I spend cutting. And recutting. And swearing. And redoing.

[Paul F Franklin]

I have an engineering, project management, and engineering management background. The engineer in me leads me to design a project ahead of time to understand what parts are required and how they will fit together. I almost always do this fairly completely with either sketches or using CAD. The project manager in me leads me to understand the required sequence of operations and their inter-dependencies and prerequisites. The general manager in me leads me to think about efficiency: how to streamline the build, what tools would be best, what jigs/fixtures will help, etc.

While this may seem overkill to many (and it is for many projects), I enjoy those steps as much as the actual build, and get a lot of satisfaction when the planning results in smooth execution and a final result in keeping with the original intent. Sometimes that actually happens. :rolleyes:

I would say on average I spend about 25% of total project time on the above aspects. More on things like complicated built-ins that have to meet a lot of requirements. Less on things like standalone furniture pieces or small projects.

[michael dilday]

Most of my projects are kitchen cabinets and furniture like bedroom suits, drawer sets, tables and desks - each of a different design and size. I use SketchList 3D software to create the piece on a computer then print optimized cut lists and many other reports that make the process pretty exact. Designing on the computer is a lot of fun so I do that in the evenings. I am always designing my next project while I am working on another. I very, very rarely run into any issue unless I just simply mis-cut or otherwise screw up a piece.

[William Fretwell]

Josko, your question is a good one. I am with Paul and think even simple things to death to come up with the best solution. This process is enjoyable, especially when you prove yourself right. My commercial build stuff is more routine assembly than woodwork, the overall design is still enjoyable. Real woodwork with every project different is a great creative outlet even though the final result may not be that remarkable as you re-invent the wheel!

[steven c newman]

I use a "Single Brain Cell Sketch Up" to figure what, and how I will do a Project.....then, break that down into a series of tasks. Goal is to complete each task, and see how the next task will fit with what is already done. No rush..might miss a detail if I get going too fast. Just one or two tasks, then spend the rest of the time going over the next tasks to be done.....the next time in the shop......one task might take all day, or, maybe one hour....doesn't matter. Best way to start any Journey, is to simply take that first step...and then the next steps will follow right along.....

Best thing about laying out everything in pencil....if you don't press down too hard...a "bad" line is easy to just sand away, and a new, better line will take it's place....

From a stack of scraps..
427736
To something like this...
427737
Is simply doing things one step at a time.

[Bob Glenn]

Sometimes, after much deliberation, I have to tell myself to just go out in the shop and start cutting.

[Jim Koepke]

Sometimes it helps me to figure these things out while falling asleep. Sometimes this results in a Rube Goldberg type of dream with an awareness in the morning of a suitable way to accomplish my dream.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Most of us weekend warriors are building new things for the first time. I spend 75% of my time thinking and designing, and 25% actually building - not because I'm efficient in building, because I'm inefficient in designing.

I'm quite efficient when building for others, because it's their general design, which I am usually allowed to modify based on my skills or practical sense.

[Josko Catipovic]

I find it works both ways: I did a complex 'stand-alone built-in' around a fireplace and stair, drew everything, and it all fit. It was kind of soul-less, though. Then, another time I noticed that a figured drawer-front really wanted a different cabinet-top. I fussed and messed and ended up with something way different than drawn, but was very happy about how well it worked out.
This last piece, I didn't visualize how fragile something would be when done, so now I'm thinking about buttressing it with a 3-d 'thing'.... but I'm not quite there yet...

[David Carroll]

For me there's one additional component:

1. Thinking time
2. Cutting time
3. Fixing screw-ups time.

If you don't spend enough time at No. 1 then you'll likely spend even more time at No. 3.

You would think after 40 years of woodworking, I'd have learned the value of focusing on No. 1. But you would be wrong.

DC

[Jim Koepke]

Fixing screw-ups time.

Old wise saying, "the difference between an amateur and a professional is how they handle their mistakes."

jtk

[Tom Bender]

30% thinking, 60% building, 1% cursing, 9% fixing

[Joe Hendershott]

I have found the less time I spend thinking, the more time I spend cutting. And recutting. And swearing. And redoing.

Ha! Gospel.

[Derek Cohen]

30% thinking, 60% building, 1% cursing, 9% fixing

I can relate to that. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mel Fulks]

For something odd I think about the materials. Custom millwork sometimes requires getting the listed materials changed.
Envisioning your project ,I think plywood might be needed, and I would cover it with glued on cloth. Faces and
edges. Perhaps using solid wood only for the stiles and top and bottom rails.

[Mike Allen1010]

Great question and some excellent thoughts expressed above. FWIW, some comments:

* Starting with at least a rough sketch and large paper cut list, in pencil is essential. Cut list gets taped up in the shop where it's readily visible and easily changeable during the build process. If I knew how to do sketch up/cad I would.

* Buy extra lumber – you always use it eventually. For me, usually means one extra of the longest board available.

* Before you start cutting, layout all your lumber and measure/label with chalk/pencil all the major components. This is your best opportunity to match grain patterns for major show surfaces etc.

* In initially breaking down rough stock, I cut the largest components (usually carcass pieces) to final length, and width +1 inch, to allow for any spelching during cross grain planing of show surfaces. Once show surface is flat (not perfectly smooth just flat), rip to final dimension.

* From here, prefer to take all subsequent measurements directly from work in progress and update cut list dimensions as needed.

* Practice/repetition helps avoid mistakes, but in any reasonably complex project there are always "new" design/construction challenges that need to be solved. I'm really bad at visualizing three-dimensional shapes. For me, life-size drawings are super helpful. I love the full-sized, flip chart with 1" grid layout lines.

* Mistakes are inevitable so don't stress out when they happen. Most can be corrected/repaired – particularly with hand tools.

* Even what seem to you like to you are the biggest mistakes are probably not even recognizable to others. I once made a stained, Poplar coffee table with inlaid compass rose right in the middle of the tabletop. The stain grossly discolored the inlay so the compass rose was barely even recognizable – I mean really horrible! Conversely, my son thought it was intentional to make the piece look "more antique" and never thought twice about it – go figure!

Cheers, Mike

[Charles Guest]

Design it on paper, draft thorny sections and certain views full-size on plywood, identify the tools you think that you need to do the project, then take half of them and lock them up and give somebody else the key. Start building.

[Derek Cohen]

Well said, Mike! All you wrote is wise advice.

I’d emphasise ... “Mistakes are inevitable so don't stress out when they happen. Most can be corrected/repaired – particularly with hand tools.”.

My view is that good woodworking is often about how well you can disguise your mistakes. I make plenty, even with careful planning .. in every project, report them and their fix. Just part of life in a workshop.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Josko Catipovic]

If it’s a new design I’m working at or the wood is precious I will make the piece out of cheap wood. Usually poplar.
Then the final piece I can move with quick confidence.
A lot of the work I do now is one off Art pieces. When making art we don’t think about time or money.

Good Luck

I want to thank you for the mock up 'push'. It was kind of hard at first to work on it knowing it'll get thrown away, but now that I've done a few, it's such an obvious way for moving along with headscratchers.

[Bill Carey]

Sometimes it helps me to figure these things out while falling asleep. Sometimes this results in a Rube Goldberg type of dream with an awareness in the morning of a suitable way to accomplish my dream.

jtk


Back when I was younger and played for money, I would fall asleep shooting pool - finding patterns, playing shape, experimenting with english, etc. Now I do the same with whatever I'm building at the time. I seldom make sketches or follow a formal plan, so I can spend a lot of time outside the shop working thru details, layouts, etc. And every now and then Rube will stick his head up and suggest a solution. Usually when I need to turn an adventure into a design feature, if you get my drift...

[Jim Koepke]

What's that old saying, great minds think alike…

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

Usually when I need to turn an adventure into a design feature, if you get my drift...

"Adventure "

I'm stealing that for my act.

[Phil Mueller]

Most of my plans are a crude drawing with rough measurements. As projects progress, measurements are finalized as pieces start to come together. Where I spend most of my time thinking is on the order of finishing, especially when working with veneer and inlays. For example, I avoid sanding veneer until the end, grain fill prior to inlay, wash coat to seal in the grain fill (but no heavy veneer sanding), seal any wood around black inlay to keep black dust out of the surrounding wood pores, final finish anything possible prior to glue up, etc.
I also try to narrow down the finish schedule as soon as I start to get cut offs from the project.

[steven c newman]

Thinking time....starting with a pile of boards...
428478
And turning them into a cabinet to store all the "user" handtools in...

Cutting time......getting things glued up, first....then the cutting might begin....

Thinking time: getting a simple plane settled on, instead of letting the brain try all sorts of ideas ...at once.

Going to start at this..later today....nothing else to do, right now....
Hauled 4 planks to the shop ( pick of the litter?)and stood one up where the box will go......design change....top of the chest would be about 7' above the floor....sometimes....it pays to do a dry fit...instead of just sitting around, doodling on paper.....

Old saying from my Dad: "A painter can always cover a Carpenter's mistake....a Doctor will bury his"

[Mark Hennebury]

Woodworking is simple; people are complicated.

Woodworking is a mind-game.

The biggest mistake that you can make is to believe that mistakes are inevitable!

That is a mind-set where you give yourself permission to accept mistakes.

When you have paid your dues and have acquired the knowledge, woodworking is paint by numbers.

It is organization, planning, project management, commitment and discipline.

Mistakes are not some inevitable random act of evil forces. They are a direct result of your actions.

Your time is better spent learning how to avoid mistakes than how to fix them.

To err is human, to refuse to accept it, divine.

Mark

[Stan Calow]

I don't think I've ever had a project end up exactly like originally planned.

[Derek Cohen]

I could joke about this, but the truth is I plan a lot. Every step, generally well in advance. Know what to do, then do it.

There is generally something new to try, a joint done in a different way, compound curves .... There is much visualisation practice going on ... that serious look on my face that my patients see and believe that I am pondering ... well, it is practicing ... :)

I still make my share of mistakes. It happens. Not the end of the world. The challenges never end. Isn’t that the fun of it all? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek