Basic hand plane question

[Robert Engel]

Caught myself wondering about something this morning.

Does dragging the plane backwards on the return stroke really dull the edge? I know I've read this in several places but is it really true?

When I'm rough planing I tend to not lift the plane, especially a heavy plane, but when I'm final planing I always do lift on the return stroke.

What say the SM experts?

[Jim Matthews]

Give a listen to Richard Maguire's videos.

You can hear the plane in both directions.

Japanese videos show a clear preference for lifting the plane to release the shavings.

I suspect that we all handle larger planes differently, depending on weight.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Yes, wood is slightly abrasive so it puts wear on the bevel which will eventually reduce clearance until it doesn't cut well. I think it's a lot less wear than cutting a shaving, but wear nonetheless. I lift, mostly to clear the shavings. Sometimes if you pull back without lifting the shaving gets caught up in the mouth and that's annoying.

[Warren Mickley]

It seems odd that some seem to think that stropping a dozen times on bare leather will "dub" the edge, but dragging on hardwood hundreds of times at a steeper angle is not a problem. Of course rubbing the plane on the reverse dulls the edge; plane blade dulling is almost all from this kind of wear and we see wear on the blade parallel to the sole from just rubbing in the forward direction.

I use a wooden jack plane which weighs 2 pounds 12 ounces. The Lie Nielsen jack planes are in the 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 pound range. Wooden trying planes (22 inches) are likewise lighter than metal planes.

[Jim Koepke]

You can not rub something without causing friction/abrasion, it is basic physics.

One of my theories as an aside to this is many old planes show wear on the toe or heel. This may have been from lifting the plane to clear the blade while dragging the heel or toe.

jtk

[ken hatch]

It seems odd that some seem to think that stropping a dozen times on bare leather will "dub" the edge, but dragging on hardwood hundreds of times at a steeper angle is not a problem. Of course rubbing the plane on the reverse dulls the edge; plane blade dulling is almost all from this kind of wear and we see wear on the blade parallel to the sole from just rubbing in the forward direction.

I use a wooden jack plane which weighs 2 pounds 12 ounces. The Lie Nielsen jack planes are in the 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 pound range. Wooden trying planes (22 inches) are likewise lighter than metal planes.

Which is why I use wood stock planes for roughing work, scrub, jack and even Try and save the metal body planes for finishing. The one except is using a #5 with a cambered cutter (Jack grind) for truing edges. When older than dirt the extra weight and resistance of metal planes will wear on you. But like Jim posted, most of the time I just lift the heel to reposition even with the woodies.

ken

[Nathan Brandes]

Just curious, out of all who have replied. What sharpening methods do you employ on your hand plane blades?

[Jim Koepke]

Just curious, out of all who have replied. What sharpening methods do you employ on your hand plane blades?

Howdy Nathan and welcome to the creek.

My sharpening method depends on the blade and time of year. Time of year is because most of my sharpening used to be done on water stones. In my shop during colder weather the water freezes. This puts me in the position of having to use oilstones.

This is all usually done free hand.

If a blade is in rather poor condition, there is a 4' long piece of granite with abrasive paper and a Veritas Mk II power sharpening system to handle the rough stuff.

jtk

[Thomas Wilson]

Just curious, out of all who have replied. What sharpening methods do you employ on your hand plane blades?
I think I have one of everything related to sharpening, but I mostly use a Lie-Nielsen guide and water stones for plane blades.

I lift the plane on the recovery stroke.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Just curious, out of all who have replied. What sharpening methods do you employ on your hand plane blades?

If you live near Columbus Ohio, I can arrange to show you many ways to sharpen the blades :D

I start with my Tormek (slow speed wet grinder), which places a concave surface on the bevel. This makes it easier to then free hand sharpen the edge.

From there, I free hand sharpen on either my water stones or my Arkansas stones.

All of this assumes that I have already flattened / polished the back of the blade.

[Warren Mickley]

Just curious, out of all who have replied. What sharpening methods do you employ on your hand plane blades?

I was one who replied earlier. I use an 800 King water stone, then Washita, Arkansas stones, and clean strop.

Welcome to the forum, Nathan.

[Nathan Brandes]

Well, im down south, so no private demonstrations for me! Thanks for the welcomes!

My setup is most similar to Andrew's. I've got a 400/1000 grit shaaf + 8000 Shapton and a 8" grinder. I latched on to Rob Cosman's methods when I started just because he had a lot of videos and I needed to pick a method.

I don't disagree that draggin back wears the edge. What I have noticed is that I have to sharpen so often (every 15-20 minutes when flattening maple/oak) to keep that low effort planning action that I can't see it reducing time between sharpening.

Now I do not have any other iron to compare to my stock #5 Woodriver blade so maybe something else would hold an edge longer.

[Rafael Herrera]

Nathan, have you tried setting the bevel of your plane iron to 30°? Can you give that a try and let us know?

[Jim Koepke]

What I have noticed is that I have to sharpen so often (every 15-20 minutes when flattening maple/oak) to keep that low effort planning action that I can't see it reducing time between sharpening.

Now I do not have any other iron to compare to my stock #5 Woodriver blade so maybe something else would hold an edge longer.


Nathan, have you tried setting the bevel of your plane iron to 30°? Can you give that a try and let us know?

A higher angle may help some. You might find a few regular swipes of wax on the plane's sole will also help.

Another thought is woods from some areas tend to have more silica in their cells than woods from other areas.

Also, the wear profile of your blade may be able to provide some information. If it is rolling over, developing a burr, your blade may be soft. A lot of chipping may be an indicator of a poor annealing process.

Simply getting dull in an even manner may indicate the wood is doing in your blade due to its make up. This may be helped by sharpening at a steeper angle or using a secondary bevel.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Do you ever plane so fast..that the plane is brought back a bit too far...and your finger gets caught between the edge of the board and the edge o the plane.....and leave "fresh DNA" on the board?


By raising the toe (or the heel) during the backstroke, it forces you to slow down a bit....and make the start stroke better....

Of course..IF you happen to have one them "Vintage warpped un-flat" planes....just keep the toe in contact with the board....will automatically raise the iron enough for the back stroke.....or, is that just another Myth?

[Jim Koepke]

Do you ever plane so fast..that the plane is brought back a bit too far...and your finger gets caught between the edge of the board and the edge o the plane.....and leave "fresh DNA" on the board?
[edited]

Nope.

jtk

[steven c newman]

BTDT....had to learn to S L O W D O W N......

[Nathan Brandes]

A higher angle may help some. You might find a few regular swipes of wax on the plane's sole will also help.

Another thought is woods from some areas tend to have more silica in their cells than woods from other areas.

Also, the wear profile of your blade may be able to provide some information. If it is rolling over, developing a burr, your blade may be soft. A lot of chipping may be an indicator of a poor annealing process.

Simply getting dull in an even manner may indicate the wood is doing in your blade due to its make up. This may be helped by sharpening at a steeper angle or using a secondary bevel.

jtk


So when I first got the blade it chipped a lot and got better after I ground it back a bit. They actually sent me a second blade but it did the same thing.

Primary bevel is 25 + ~5 of secondary/tertiary. I had to move to a thicker ruler for the ruler trick to combat the chipping. I use the metal portion of a bevel gauge after removing it from the handle.

I can't detect a burr forming and I've looked at it with a microscope.

I think I may get a aftermarket blade just to try.

[Rafael Herrera]

Nathan, by imparting a back bevel you're thinning the edge, which may explain your chipping. Also, is your blade harder than O1 steel? For those that use the A2 and PMV11 blades, are these blades prone to chipping? Give a 30 or 35 degree bevel a try.

[Jim Koepke]

So when I first got the blade it chipped a lot and got better after I ground it back a bit.

This is a common occurrence with a new blade. Many have reported this happening until the blade has been sharpened a few times "to get to the good stuff."

jtk

[bill epstein]

Nathan, have you tried setting the bevel of your plane iron to 30°? Can you give that a try and let us know?

For what it's worth I change the bevel angle on all my chisels and planes, if necessary, to 30 degrees and then a 1 or 2 degree micro-bevel. Finally a slight back bevel.

Perhaps more germane to the OP's question about wearing the blade or sole, I always squiggle some candle wax on the sole before and during operation. I only use oils or shellac for finishing and have never had an adhesion problem with either. Oils, obviously, pose no problem and my shellac is not de-waxed. Now of course, we'll want to have a 46 reply thread on the type of wax best used.

Question: Ever notice how every sharpening video always concludes with the triumphant taking of a full-width, delicate shaving of Pine? :p

[steven c newman]

Nah...really?
428242
never noticed:rolleyes:
428243

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]
Question: Ever notice how every sharpening video always concludes with the triumphant taking of a full-width, delicate shaving of Pine? :p

Like this?

428351

Or this?

428353

Nope, never noticed.

jtk

- BTW, the shaving in the second image was done on a piece of wood that was rather scarred up from testing a sharpened gouge. That's why there are holes in the shaving.