Import Blues

[Rob Will]

So I've been looking for some heavy equipment to set up a new shop. Several members have suggested companies to check out.
One was Northfield.........
So in the case of a 16" helical head jointer....a 7.5 hp Powermatic (Tiawan) costs about $5500. A 16" 7.5 hp Northfield with carbide head would cost over 4 times that much????

How is it possible that USA made has fallen so far out of the competitive marketplace? I can understand differences in quality and labor costs.....but be for real......a 4 to 1 price gap????

[tod evans]

rob, i can say with the utmost certainty that we are not talking apples to apples here! granted both will accommodate the same size board but that is where the similarities end. you are looking at large sums of money any way you go so please take your time and test drive all the equipment you`re able. in the end only you can decide how best to spend your money.......02 tod

[Bill Simmeth]

I agree with Tod's point that it's not apples-to-apples. The Northfield is in a different class. However, it doesn't explain the 4-1 price ratio in and of itself.

Unlike the good ole U.S., Taiwan has a government that actually embraces and encourages manufacturing businesses. Just look at this link (you can ignore the prompt to install the language pack) to see what I mean: http://www.moeaidb.gov.tw/portal/english/about5-1.jsp

Compare those policies to ours. :mad:

[tod evans]

I agree with Tod's point that it's not apples-to-apples. The Northfield is in a different class. However, it doesn't explain the 4-1 price ratio in and of itself.

Unlike the good ole U.S., Taiwan has a government that actually embraces and encourages manufacturing businesses. Just look at this link (you can ignore the prompt to install the language pack) to see what I mean: http://www.moeaidb.gov.tw/portal/english/about5-1.jsp

Compare those policies to ours. :mad:

holy cow! and to think i`ve been told my whole life that our government is pro-big business...i have to wonder if northfield was given the same tax benefits what the consumer price would be for their equipment? i can only speculate as it`s doubtful our country will embrace industry again any time soon.....02 tod

[Gary Herrmann]

I've looked at Northfields page and they do have impressive machines. I know they're US made and they're all(?) cast iron. I assume they have extremely high manufacturing tolerances.

Heres my question. The big MM 16" jointer is 7k, I think. The Northfield 16" jointer is 14k. Both are about 5hp, both are about 1700 or 1800 lbs. Why is the Northfield twice as much?

Is the Northfield in a different class than the Minimax too? If so, why? I'm not arguing, I'd just like to know. Maybe someday, I'll have to weigh a purchasing decision like this. Yeah, I wish.

[Dev Emch]

Its not a fair comparision. The devil is in the details. As Bill pointed out, government policy is against us. And the upper crust of execs in this country benefit regards of source of origin. Thus, the CEO of powermatic gets his massive bonus regardless of whether the company peddles TN made or Taiwan made hardware.

It gets worse. The burdened overhead gets applied to all units sold. So my real estate (price and taxes0, my machine tools, my labor, my material costs, my EPA issues, etc. etc. have to be paid by either a handful of machines or many machines. If a US company makes a bunch, then this cost comes down. If a US company makes a handful, then this cost stays way up. And of course, I (i.e. US company) receive no subsidies from the government. And you think Taiwan is unfair, you should see the bennie list offered by China!

Then you have the details. The designs are more carefully engineered. The machine shop work is much more accurate and consistent. This is why Taiwan is now pushing subsidies for automation... that means installing CNC machines. Would be nice if Uncle George and Pappa Ted threw us the keys to a few new Gene Haas machines and a Hardinge or two for free without the bank taking our first five newborns!

And while we are on the subject of details. Have you ever compared an Oliver to anyone of your favorate imports? Just look at handwheels for example. Oliver gives you a nice, heavy robust handwheel and what do you get from the imports.... some tiny little fragile thing made from recycled Miller an Hams cans.

Then you have metalurgy. The import machines are prone to warpage. I have written on SMC at length about Meehanite alloys and its use in machine tools. Folks, I didnt make this up to sound like a know-it-all.

Many people have discovered OWWM for this very reason. And corporate america and the US government in their infinite wisdom to get rid of this old junk are selling it off dirt cheap. Excellent machines but no longer any use to corporate america as they seek World Class Manufacturing Status. Before some of you hammer me over the head for saying this, bear in mind that I have been to dozens of US auctions and I know better. I am to old and grizzled to bear the disingenuous rubbish from a well meaning public relations department.

So I think given the circumstances, the prices that Northfield asks are more than reasonable albeit not very affordable. But none of these companies ever changed or engineered their products in the last 50 or 60 years. The northfield designs are several generations old and parts for a 2006 #4 fit a #4 saw made eons ago. Electrics are another issue. Its not uncommon to see a 1940s Oliver 125 tenoner with a lovely install of brand new IEC Specher & Shuh motor contactor relays and switches for all 5 orig. DMD Louis Aliis spindle motors.

And before all this gets you down, bear this in mind. The machine cutting of wood is both super basic and very old. Not much has really changed in the last 100 years other than new carbide technology in the cutting head (blades and bits) and extrusion revolution. The extrusion revolution is the creation and marketing of new tools designed to be revolutionary and super cost effective with tools based on the use of lots of extrusions.

The height of the american woodworking machine industry was 1970. Typically anything made from about 1930 to 1970 by the cream of the crop companies is a good bet for you to use. I am not talking about companies like wallace or to some degree, walker turner but rather oliver, northfield, tannewitz, wysong, fay & egan, yates amercian, moak, porter, etc. If you go back farther than 1930, your going to find babbitt bearing antiques. Now there is nothing wrong with these machines but your going to need some comfort level in working with these. These are not the best machines to pursue for your first venture down the OWWM path. Also, the market is loaded with semi-modern machines right now so the choice is pretty good although not perfect. Right now, oliver 88 table saws are not the easiest to get hold of.

Often when you buy one of these, your going to find it needs work. Sometimes alot of work. Plan on a total disassembly. You also need to know where to look for help. Walking into a modern US machine shop with a tiny broke part is a suicide mission. You need to make some freindships within the OWWM community who are also in the home machinist revolution. There are some darn good machinists working with old vintage lathes and milling machines in their garage shops. Often they are content building scale models of gas or steam engines from scratch. One OWWM owner gets machine work done at the surgar refinery shop in HI for the cost of bear and fat boy ice cream bars. Me, I am more inclined to do the work for curly maple and quarter sawn white oak. NO KIDDING!

We even know of an amish foundary to get cast iron work of a limited size done for a reasonable price. Its a whole underground community. Just remember that you would never go into a biker bar during bike week and yell Harley Stinks and expect to live to talk about the experience. The same applies here. Just be quiet and dont say anything about Jet or Grizzly or any of the other imports. Getting one of these grizzled old uncle jessie types upset can be very colorful indeed!

So with a little patience, work and resourefulness, anybody can put these gems of american history into their shops as well.... hobby or pro. You would be blown away knowing how many hobby shops are running oliver today and some of this oliver was made during the first decade of the 1900s!

[tod evans]

gary, i cannot answer your question as i don`t own a joiner.. i will say i have driven a northfield single side surfacer and i own a minimax....but then again i`m just a poor hillbilly:) in short on the surfacer the northfield i drove was a nicer machine than the minimax but i spent my dollars for what i thought was best for my situation and limited budget and have no regrets whatsoever....02 tod

[Rob Will]

I really like the old Oliver jointers and planers from what I have seen. Yes, babbit bearings are not where I want to go but I'll keep looking at the 1930 - 1970 stuff. Any publications or websites that show a history and models produced?

Having said that, i think I'm a carbide insert guy.....like the looks of the ITCH head for sure.

[Dev Emch]

First of all, ITCH heads have been found on machines going back to 1908 albeit that was a factory retrofit. Many type two 299 planers have been retrofit with ITCH heads as well as bryd heads. Bryd has heads to fit many of the top names in old US iron.

The usual sources. As we are no longer allowed to post URLs, you need to PM me or look up OWWM using google to find the mother ship. There are PDF catalogs of many machines including many olivers.

[Gary Curtis]

Dev,

Would you lump in Davis & Wells with the "good old iron"?

You mentioned Walker & Turner. I waited a long time to find and buy a 1960's vintage Walker-Turner drill press. Is that second tier merchandise?

Gary Curtis

[Lee DeRaud]

You also need to know where to look for help. Walking into a modern US machine shop with a tiny broke part is a suicide mission. You need to make some freindships within the OWWM community who are also in the home machinist revolution. There are some darn good machinists working with old vintage lathes and milling machines in their garage shops.For small-scale, high-tolerance machine work, it also helps to cultivate the friendship of a couple of good gunsmiths: they're used to doing odd-ball one-off jobs...as long as you don't need it tomorrow.

[Dev Emch]

Gary... I to own some walker turner. Walker turner was a middle of the road maker who was bought out by delta. The WT drill press line was amongst their best products including the radial arm drill which is great. Where do you think Rockwell-Delta got their design from?

Also bear in mind that according to drill press designs, Buffalo Forge and Walker Turner wrote the book on light weight drill presses. Compare, for example, your WT drill press against a general or older model delta. Hmmm, look familar? The general drill press is an excellent drill press but it has many of the design elments from a 1940s walker turner.

But they also had the driver line which I dont have much use for. I also own a walker turner lathe with a reeves drive and its O.K. I much prefer the more massive olivers. Right now I am looking for an oliver 20-C and I have a fay and scott patternmaker with babbit bearings that I like more than my walker turner lathe. But having said this, if I were to compare my walker turner lathe against many new lathes, it would be hands down. The walker turner stays. So my comments are empirical and relative.

I have a 1940s walker turner catalog and it you can see many of the late model WTs. You will soon see that there are no large machines. No 12 in or larger jointers. No massive 36 in bandsaws. No massive patternmaker grade table saws. Everything was geared more to a lighter weight market such as schools and small cabinet shops and finish carpenters who have to move stuff about.


Dont know much about Davis & Wells. Some buddies own these and like these. But remember, there were over 300 companies in this business. So no one person can know every detail about every model made.

[Lee DeRaud]

gary, i cannot answer your question as i don`t own a joiner.. i will say i have driven a northfield single side surfacer and i own a minimax....but then again i`m just a poor hillbilly:) in short on the surfacer the northfield i drove was a nicer machine than the minimax but i spent my dollars for what i thought was best for my situation and limited budget and have no regrets whatsoever....02 todAnd that brings up an important (maybe the most important) point: what do you need that tool to do? A tool built to run thousands of hours per year in a factory setting may be worth every penny the seller is asking for it...but do you really need that class of tool?

[Barry O'Mahony]

I've looked at Northfields page and they do have impressive machines. I know they're US made and they're all(?) cast iron. I assume they have extremely high manufacturing tolerances.

Heres my question. The big MM 16" jointer is 7k, I think. The Northfield 16" jointer is 14k. Both are about 5hp, both are about 1700 or 1800 lbs. Why is the Northfield twice as much?

Is the Northfield in a different class than the Minimax too? If so, why? I'm not arguing, I'd just like to know. Maybe someday, I'll have to weigh a purchasing decision like this. Yeah, I wish.Your question seems to asume there is some relationship between cost (amount to produce a good) and price (the amount the sellers charges for the good). In fact, there isn't a direct relationship.

Why does Northfield charge $14K? Because they think that's the price that will maximize the number:

(price per unit - cost per unit) x (number of units sold)

In other words, their gross profit. They are going after a completely different market segment than the Taiwanese importers. This market segment, as viewed by Northfield, is relatively insensitive to price; i.e., if they dropped the price a bit, they wouldn't end up selling enough more units to make up for the loss in per-unit profit. So why should they.

The Taiwanese importers are selling into a market segment with both price-sensitive consumers, and multiple competitors. Those vendors "see" a market-imposed price point; if they set their price much above it, they will find they have no customers. Conversely, comptitive forces have set this price such that if they set their price below the market price, they'll make such little per-unit profit that it's hardly worth it.

[tod evans]

And that brings up an important (maybe the most important) point: what do you need that tool to do? A tool built to run thousands of hours per year in a factory setting may be worth every penny the seller is asking for it...but do you really need that class of tool?

lee, you are 100% correct! how many folks who read this forum make their living using their tools? granted there are some of us who do but we are the minority. i think that the average joe in his garage/basement/outbuilding comprises the majority of readers. that exact reason is why when i personally recomend a light industrial to industrial grade piece of equipment the post(er) has either brought up a price point/production issue or build quality that would bring this type of equipment into the conversation. if i where "joe" my tooling would be quite a bit different than what it is. i think it`s a crying shame that the tool manufacturers who target the homeowner/hobbiest market have by and large been forced overseas but each and every one of us "old coots" stood by and let it happen. now in order for the next generation to enjoy something as basic as building something for themselves folks are forced to weigh their pocketbook against their patriotism. i don`t have any answers, i`m just another joe trying to put beans on the table who happens to be pretty well versed in woodworking and tool destruction. this is why my advice to folks is to research, testdrive and spend wisely...02 tod

[Dev Emch]

Well said. And for whats its worth, have you guys seen some of the hardware used in modern cabinet factories and door shops here? Much of this stuff comes from Germany and its all super computer controlled. Double end tenoners put both ends on a stile or rail in a matter of less than 5 seconds. Moulders are running so fast, you cannot see them working their magic. And each of these machines costs more than two of your present homes unless your Bill Gates, then it costs about one of your homes.:p

[Gary Herrmann]

My question was 99% educational for me. I had some assumptions, and you've verified them. I may get more into the machinery end of it - buying older machines and rehabbing them, but we'll see. I get little enough time to make sawdust.

Now, if I win the lottery, why not overbuy? 'Course, I guess I'd have to start buying tickets...

[Bill Simmeth]

Would you lump in Davis & Wells with the "good old iron"?While certainly not as "stout" as old Oliver machines, Davis & Wells turned out some nice machines. They especially had some great design talent as exhibited in their band saws. Very sexy as in this one:

http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/Images/2199-B.jpg

What's ironic in comparing Davis & Wells to Oliver is that in the end, Davis & Wells made many of Oliver's machines. In particular, many of the 25XX series of Oliver machines were in fact re-badged D&W machines. Sadly, though, this was also the beginning of the end of the old Oliver.

[Gary Curtis]

Since we are talking about older designed American machinery, I hope it is not hijacking the thread to steer "Creekers" to a great source.

7 weeks ago I visited the Davis & Wells company in the industrial heart of Los Angeles (323 area code). The company name remains, but it is now reduced to selling used machinery. They had dozens of the bandsaw pictured in the posting above. Some restored to new condition.

I was interested in an Italian EMA sliding table saw with scoring blade. Probably weighed 900 lbs. It needed a bit of restoration. But that is their trade. I bought a new machine elsewhere because I am building a new house and have no time for projects. But the restored machinery I saw there was quite handsome. In a year, I'll be looking for a planer and a jointer, so I know where to start my shopping.

As real estate prices and rising salaries drive out many manufacturing firms from the area, there is an abundance of good, used machinery for sale in the area.

Gary Curtis
Los Angeles

[Keith Outten]

Most of the points made in this thread are certainly accurate including the issue of purchasing equipment that is well over the production needs of the homeowner. Most of the tools I own that are imported I would not have today if I had to purchase domestic iron. When I was just doing hobby work the price point was the big issue, imported equipment provided a larger machine for the price of very low end domestic equipment so half the machines in my shop are imported.

Old American iron is obviously still around but difficult to find untill you can learn where to look. I know from personal experience it took me twenty years to find a Southbend SB9 metal lathe in excellent condition with all the attachments and at an affordable price. I guess it could be found in 24 hours if one knew exactly where to look but most don't.

I have to say that most of the imported tools i own have served me well, most I will never wear out given my production rates and even though I am now doing commercial work I find the imported stuff equal to the task at hand. My latest acquisition was made in North Carolina though and it is as solid a machine as I have ever seen in a small shop with excellent backing by the manufacturer and continued improvement in the product through the years.

[John Keane]

I am not a cheap skate, but I am fiscally conservative. It just rings my bell to use a tool that was made in the USA. I just feel better about it as an American, and am more confident that whatever it is will work.

[Dev Emch]

This topic continues to come up and one main point continues to fade into a blured secondary issue. So I will preempt this to the top of the stack queue again. Bill will agree here.

Most OWWM guys who restore old iron do so for two intial reasons. Cost and Quality. Its very hard to beat the price to value ratio of a restored hunk of iron.

Its also funny in that often the best machines are those that have been pastured under a tree for 50 years. Old rust and flaking paint surely look ugly and will scare off most normal folks faster than you know what. I am more interested in casting cracks and strategic iron welds... both of which should be avoided. Its amazing what a trip to the sandblaster and 50 dollars worth of Rust-o-leum can do to most machines.

So Keith, who is the NC builder? Would that be Onsrud, Whitney-Neuman or Wysong by any chance?

[Keith Outten]

Dev,

ShopBot Tools in Durham, North Carolina. Their CNC router has matured through the years and is, in my opinion, a very nice machine for the money. American made and backed by a company that is second to none when it comes to suporting their products. I purchased my ShopBot last year about this time and it has been flawless and a real money maker. Not bad for a machine that is around ten grand and includes the necessary software.

ShopBot routers have quite a loyal following now and the numbers are growing rapidly since the new PRT Alpha machine was introduced last year. I attended the ShopBot Jamboree last April in Durham and met lots of ShopBotters who are doing some amazing work with what most would consider an entry level CNC machine. Mine paid for itself on the first job.

My shop is for the most part a one-man operation so the big iron CNC companies are way out of reach for me financially. Production speeds aren't a big consideration since I don't run my ShopBot all day long. Accuracy and affordability were tha key issues that guided my selection. In a nutshell it is amazing that a small shop like mine can purchase a CNC machine, not long ago they were way out of reach.

American Iron...did I mention that I own a Buffalo Forge drill press? Mine is an old hand crank model in perfect condition :)

[Dev Emch]

Thats right, shopbot is in NC. I have not yet found any reason to jump on the CNC router bandwagen. But dont think I have not been trying to rationalize it.:D All it takes is that first job like the one you talked about.

Most hand cranked drill presses are post drills. Is yours a post drill?

[Lee DeRaud]

Most OWWM guys who restore old iron do so for two intial reasons. Cost and Quality. Its very hard to beat the price to value ratio of a restored hunk of iron.I've also gotta believe there's a decent percentage of them doing it as a hobby, just because (1) it's fun and (2) they can.

[Keith Outten]

Dev,

Yep, its a post drill and quite impressive for its day with auto downfeed per revolution of the crank handle. I have actually used it a few times when I needed to drill real slow and carefull on a few projects.

[Dev Emch]

I've also gotta believe there's a decent percentage of them doing it as a hobby, just because (1) it's fun and (2) they can.

Yuuuuuupppppp..... You Betcha! Just be forwarned. When you find yourself putting on chrome plated header stacks in place of the DC plumbing, you know youve gone to far.:D

[Alan Turner]

Rob,

I love old iron; the weight, the quality, the look. Just a bit of an obsession I suppose, but it is also price motivated. I have been fortunate in my old iron acquisition efforts in finding an estate, or a shop that was closing. But, when I have needed a tool that I could not source direct from a seller, then I have turned to used tool dealers. My usual and customary one is knowledgable and honest. He will tell me if what he has is ready to run or is a project, and the prices reflect his views, although to some extent they reflect the price he had to pay.

I found an Oliver 166dd, 20" jointer, on ebay nonetheless. It was from a closing pattern shop in Connecticut, which meant that I could pick it up and not risk a poor shipping experience. I was determined to buy it, and did so, for just over 4K. If I had had any doubts on it, I would have driven up to examine it, but frankly I am not sure that I would have had the skill for a proper examination. A Dev I am not. Instead, I spent a bunch of phone time with the seller's shop foreman and was convinced that this was a well cared for machine from an honest shop, and it had been owned since new by this firm. Well, I won it, and my used tool dealer and I went to get it, and other tools also. I used him becuase he had the truck, and the rigging skill to handle it on both ends. It is dead nuts on, and came with the original grinding head, which I have now used with delight. It is not as fast as a TERSA head, but is way faster than changing the knives, and far less expensive. Took under an hour, and next time it will only take about 30 minutes, I suspect. I am given to understand that it is not all that unusual to find an old Oliver with the grinding attachment, and I am told that each grinding rig was hand fitted to its machine by the factory. I think the used retail for this machine might be nearer $6500, which is more than the price I paid, but others may have more detailed information on this. At the time my dealer had a 24" Northfield, which he said was in good shape, and I think he had it priced at about $7000, which was over my budget by a bit.

The point of this post is that if you are in the market for some heavy equipment, then you may want to consider a used equip. dealer. When I could not find a 24" planer on my own, I bought one from my dealer Bill. It is a Type 2, Oliver 299d, wth regular knives. I think it is from 1957. A 5hp 3ph unit, with grinding head. My dealer Bill knew the machine and felt it was in good shape and ready to run. He knows how to look at these tools; I do not. The price was quite fair, although not cheap, but probably no more than that size of import. I have been quite pleased. It took 1/4" cut off of a 22" slab of maple butcher block without complaining, although I have to say that that particular cut was a bit of an accident. (: (Got to get one of those digital read outs I guess.)

Good luck on your quest for some manly tooling.

[Steven Wilson]

Rob, You should run a Northfield machine and then you will know. The folk's that run Northfield take a great deal of pride in their machining and casting. They make a casting run (cast a bunch of one tool) and then let it season for a few years before machining, building, and balancing. When you fire it up and run it you will notice no vibration; none, nada, zip. It's not just mass, it's good machining, that's what you pay for with Northfield. If their product line fits your organizations work then they are a good value - if you can afford to wait (they generally have a backlog). Nothing wrong with Powermatic, nothing wrong with Minimax (I have a CU350 and MM20), it's just product from Northfield (old school) or Martin (new school) take it up the quality scale a few more notches.

[Rob Will]

Steven,
I appreciate the quality of USA iron.......
I'm just wishing that the price spread was not 4 to 1.
Rob

[Corvin Alstot]

Wish I knew more about old iron. With a two car garage and limited space it would be tough to make room for these tools. I assume most user have dedicated shops for this stuff.
On a side note, Gates house has some amazing millwork and architectural woodwork, cost reported to be around $35-50MM.

. . . And each of these machines costs more than two of your present homes unless your Bill Gates, then it costs about one of your homes.

[Dev Emch]

Wish I knew more about old iron. With a two car garage and limited space it would be tough to make room for these tools. I assume most user have dedicated shops for this stuff.
On a side note, Gates house has some amazing millwork and architectural woodwork, cost reported to be around $35-50MM.

Not really. Space helps but many OWWM guys are working out of garage shops. Most OWWM woodworking machines are about the same size as modern machines. Where you can stick a unisaw with a 52 in Beiesmyer fence, you can stick an oliver 88 or tanny or northfield.

[lou sansone]

Price can be a major factor in deciding on which machine to buy for which task. I have a bunch of old iron that is real nice and a couple of newer machines from Europe and Taiwan. The newer Italian and German machines are real nice. My Casadei 24" planer is very well made and probably in the oliver league comparing old iron and in the SCMI league or better comparing new machines ( Alan may disagree, but I have seen both machines close up ) . I think that the devil is in the details. some of you folks know that I have been shopping for a slider. I have looked at some of the new Italian one - not mentioning any names.

I was about to buy a martin slider a week ago. Went to look at it ( with a bank check no less ) and low and behold it was broken and in need of complete rebuild. The price was not reflective of this fact ( several grand ). I could I have completely rebuilt it. I have been designing, building and rebuilding machines for almost 30 years now. The dealer did not know about this major flaw and was most gracious and really lowered the price to the point were it should be for a martin with problems. The problem was that when my engineering mind started to really look over the machine I saw features that I personally did not like and I thought were weak points in the design. I chose to pass in rebuilding it not because of the price or the effort I have to put into it, but because of the design. the point is that there is no perfect machine, and even the top German ones have problems in design. You pay for design and you pay for execution of the design with accuracy and with quality parts and fit and finish. I do think that the cheaper the machine the more design issues there are in general.

I just rebuilt an oliver 260D. sweet machine. The top on that saw was perfect. There is nothing like a cold planed top. my Newman has that same feel. The new Italian machines I have owned don't. Many new machines have a Blanchard ground top that is just cheep in my opinion. Interesting enough that casadei has a planed top on the planer bed.

Also interesting is that the new invicta rt-40 comes with a Blanchard ground top while as best as I can determine my 1982 Rockwell/invicta has a planed top. same machine? I don't think so.

so should you buy a Northfield slider for 15 grand? if it fits your business model sure. But you can find them for 5 in real nice shape. That is my next date. stay tuned
Lou

[Alan Turner]

Lou,
I am less knowledgable than many here about the details of old iron, and tend to take advice from those I think more knowledgable than I. So, I have no opinion on your planer vs. others of good quality. But, I will say that the Oliver color is terrific, esp. with walls painted somewhere between peach and apricot ice. But, I do not want to start a debate on these finer points of shop decoration.