Chipbreaker for hard woods

[Josko Catipovic]

I keep my chipbreaker about 1 mm back from the blade edge, and on woods like oak and cherry it works fine. While planing ipe I noticed fine chips/sawdust accumulating just in front of the chipbreaker (NOT between chipbreaker and blade). Generally, plane was generating sawdust, not shavings and was noticably harder to push. So I moved it back to maybe 2 mm, and all of a sudden, I was making full-length shavings and the force needed to push the plane dropped drastically. Went back to white oak for a check, and the difference wasn't nearly as pronounced.
So, are there some guidelines for setting chipbreakers wrt wood type? FWIW, Ipe is harder and more crack-prone (stiffer???) than oak. (Shavings are much easier to break than oak ones.)
The plane is a Record #4 with a PMV11 blade (and original Record chipbreaker, ground down and polished to close any gap w/ the blade). Blade is honed to 8000 and works just fine on white oak.

[Jim Koepke]

So, are there some guidelines for setting chipbreakers wrt wood type?

The only guidelines to my knowledge is to go with your experience and if something isn't working, make an adjustment.


FWIW, Ipe is harder and more crack-prone (stiffer???) than oak.

This is was likely the cause of your extra resistance and the creation of "generating sawdust" instead of a continuous shaving. If it were a softer wood it would still have the resistance but make 'accordion' shavings which are also an indication the chip breaker is too close to the cutting edge.

jtk

[david charlesworth]

Fine chips and dust accumulating at front of c/b suggest that the front edge of c/b is not in good shape.

Roughness of any kind, or a trace of square edge will produce this.

I notice that few chipbreaker edges are correct from the manufacturer.

What we want is a 45 degree sharp, polished edge. ( Angle can be steeper.)

best wishes,
David

[Derek Cohen]

At 1mm back from the edge, the chipbreaker is unlikely to be affecting the cut. At 2mm, it is definitely out of the game.

For most if my local West Australian hardwoods, I would set the chipbreaker around 0.3 - 0.4mm from the edge for smoothing cuts. As David points out, the leading edge of the chipbreaker requires careful preparation. I tend to add a 50 degree secondary bevel to LV and LN chipbreakers. Stanley chipbreakers can remain as is. The underside if the chipbreaker become critical when so close to the edge. I must be flat and mate cleanly with the blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Engel]

Sounds to me like a function of sharpness.

[David Eisenhauer]

I'm with Robert Josko. I would have maybe never thought of moving the cap iron when first encountering a dust at the chip breaker and/or more effort to push the plane issue. I would immediately pull the iron for a sharpening session.

[Jim Koepke]

The active area of my chip breakers are usually polished on a fine stone. This is followed by an application of the wax du jour.

Resistance encountered when planing is caused by a combination of forces. A tight mouth can hinder a shaving's exit and increase resistance. This can be relieved by opening the mouth or backing up the chip breaker.

jtk

[Josko Catipovic]

At 1mm back from the edge, the chipbreaker is unlikely to be affecting the cut. At 2mm, it is definitely out of the game.

For most if my local West Australian hardwoods, I would set the chipbreaker around 0.3 - 0.4mm from the edge for smoothing cuts. As David points out, the leading edge of the chipbreaker requires careful preparation. I tend to add a 50 degree secondary bevel to LV and LN chipbreakers. Stanley chipbreakers can remain as is. The underside if the chipbreaker become critical when so close to the edge. I must be flat and mate cleanly with the blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

So I measured the standoff (with a feeler gauge and a vertical blade on a horiz. reference surface) and I get .4 mm in the 'normal position, and 1.1 mm in the pullback position. Guess I eyeballed it a bit too roughly earlier.

Also checked the angle of my chipbreaker, and it's pretty close to 70 deg right where it meets the blade. I'd been concentrating on polishing the inside so no light shows, and pretty much neglected the outside surface. Maybe it's time to get an LV chipbreaker and see if it makes a difference.

[Jim Koepke]

I'd been concentrating on polishing the inside so no light shows, and pretty much neglected the outside surface.

All it needs is a check to make sure there isn't a burr to impede shavings. Give it a few strokes on a stropp and it should be good to go.

jtk

[Mark Hennebury]

The record #4 needs the forward edge of the throat opening filed at an angle; if it is left square to the sole, it will choke up when you move the chip breaker close to the cutting edge, and have a small throat opening.
Filing it at an angle gives you a lot of room for shaving clearance.
Chip breakers can be ground and shaped, with a microbevel on the end. This also gives you more chip clearance. The micro bevel is what does the work, the rest of the chipbreaker, just supports it.
The microbevel on the chipbreaker is a stop, that the rising shaving hits into and puts backpressure on shaving, preventing it from tearing ahead of the blade cutting edge.
Experiment with the distance of setback from the blade edge, relative to shaving thickness, there is a sweet spot for each shaving thickness and wood type. Its a balance of relationship.
put the chipbreaker as close as you can, try it, then move it back a bit, try it, rinse and repeat for various shaving thicknesses and you will get a good understanding of how it works.

[Stewie Simpson]

Sounds like the mouth opening is too tight after you fitted that thicker replacement iron.

[Robert Hazelwood]

The optimal chipbreaker setting varies with depth of cut, leading angle of the chipbreaker, and the properties of the wood being planed. 70 degrees is fairly steep but close to what was used in the famous Japanese article from years back. It can be effective but I think steeper angles are more sensitive- less margin between not far enough and too close. I prepare mine with a ~50 degree edge and a rounded bevel.

Beyond that, though, don't set the chipbreaker any closer than it has to be. If you didn't get any tear out when you pulled the breaker back then that setting is fine.

Depth of cut plays a big role as well. Your initial setting may have been fine with a lighter shaving. The optimal CB setting distance increases as the shaving thickens, all else equal.

[Derek Cohen]

So I measured the standoff (with a feeler gauge and a vertical blade on a horiz. reference surface) and I get .4 mm in the 'normal position, and 1.1 mm in the pullback position. Guess I eyeballed it a bit too roughly earlier.

Also checked the angle of my chipbreaker, and it's pretty close to 70 deg right where it meets the blade. I'd been concentrating on polishing the inside so no light shows, and pretty much neglected the outside surface. Maybe it's time to get an LV chipbreaker and see if it makes a difference.

Josko, if the chipbreaker had been set back 1-2mm, as you mentioned earlier, it would have little impact on the cutting of the blade. I assume that the blade is sharp. I have taken this as a given, since you have mentioned that only certain woods are involved in creating dust. Your updated information reveals that the chipbreaker is closed up appropriately, as is the angle at the leading edge of the chipbreaker (higher than I would use, but what this really does in actuality is offer a little more freedom to move it further back from the edge).

Dynamics change now with the chipbreaker closed up. The size of the mouth becomes an issue. As other have mentioned, your result sounds like the mouth is too tight ... to tight to permit shavings to flow through as the chipbreaker is blocking the escapement. The "dust" is likely to be a symptom of the shavings not being able to form and escape. A similar symptom is when the shavings become excessively crinkly (like a concertina). Mark suggested filing the back of the mouth to ease the process. I know that David has written about this in his books. This may work. The easier way is simply to open the mouth by sliding back the frog. With a closed up chipbreaker, a wider mouth size does not impact negatively on tearout. So, simply open the mouth. (Note, this is about the chipbreaker/escapement relationship, and not due to a thicker blade, per se. However, a thicker blade will aid this process if one does not take into account that it closes up the mouth).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

The optimal chipbreaker setting varies with depth of cut, leading angle of the chipbreaker, and the properties of the wood being planed. 70 degrees is fairly steep but close to what was used in the famous Japanese article from years back. It can be effective but I think steeper angles are more sensitive- less margin between not far enough and too close. I prepare mine with a ~50 degree edge and a rounded bevel.

Beyond that, though, don't set the chipbreaker any closer than it has to be. If you didn't get any tear out when you pulled the breaker back then that setting is fine.

Depth of cut plays a big role as well. Your initial setting may have been fine with a lighter shaving. The optimal CB setting distance increases as the shaving thickens, all else equal.

Yes, we use a rounded bevel on the cap iron. We have used this configuration since the 18th century. I have used a rounded bevel with 80 degrees at the point where it meets the plane iron since 1976. And as Robert mentions, the setting of the cap iron depends not only on the quality of the timber, but the thickness of the shaving. A cap iron that is too close will leave a surface that will be cloudy like a scraper or a high angle plane.

I would not buy a Lee Valley cap iron. It was designed by people who had no idea how to use a double iron plane. Your Record cap iron is fully capable of fine work.
I would sooner try the original Record plane iron instead of the PM VII.

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, there is nothing wrong with the LV chipbreaker, although I modify them. I certainly prefer them to both the vintage Stanley and Record chipbreakers (which can flex too much, which is an issue when setting them close to the edge of the blade) and also the two-piece Clifton chipbreakers (which are not rigid enough). The earlier Record two-piece chipbreakers, which the Clifton were modelled upon, however, are more rigid. Still not my preference. More modern Record planes have a chipbreaker similar to LN and LV.

What I do to prepare the LV and LN chipbreakers (and one can do with a modern Record) is to add a little bend to create a little spring, and then round the leading edge at 50 degrees. Now this creates an excellent chipbreaker.

I would not recommend changing out the PM-V11 steel. It is about the best modern steel available for planes and chisels. The powdered metal allows for a very fine and also consistent grain. You also do not know what steel is in the original Record plane - it may be a later model which uses tungsten! Now that would be even worse than A2! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Josko Catipovic]

Couple things to touch on:
Sharpness is relative, but I establish the bevel on a Tormek, transfer to a LV Mk2, registering by making sure I'm honing both top and bottom of the bevel, then bump up a degree and work to 8000. Seems to work. Back is flat.
Mouth on the #4 is quite wide; I should probably move the frog forward a bit, but never bothered. To digress, I have an early Stanley #3 where I did have to file out the mouth to fit a PMV11 blade. Somehow, I ended up with a gap I can barely see through, yet it takes off full-with fine shavings. I counted my blessings, stopped filing, and use it as a final smoother. (Still don't understand how a plane can work with almost no daylight between blade and mouth front.) That leaves the #4 for heavier work.
I got this plane new in t mid 80's from Garret wade. Does that establish whether it has a Tungsten blade? I stil have the original blade, and don't see that much of a difference performance-wise. My Record #7 has the original blade, and works just fine.

This is the first time I've worked a wood different enough to really focus my attention on the chipbreaker. So far, I did the obvious with it and took it for granted.

[Mark Hennebury]

You can fine tune your plane to work exceptionally well, when you understanding what you are doing. When the parts are properly filed and ground, it is possible to have a close set chipbreaker, set within a couple of thou without choking, it is also possible to have an incredible small throat opening. As you can see in the photos the throat opening is so close that the shaving is tight but will still pass through, as you see i can actually lift the plane up by the shaving, yet it still passes through without restriction. Shavings can be taken in a wide range of thickness down to spiderweb, All of the measurements are relative to the shaving thickness. There is a sweetspot for shaving thickness /woodspecies. Study, test, analyse adjust, rinse and repeat. This plane can be made to preform to the highest level, with a little understanding and a little work.
you may have noticed that my plane has some modification done to it, that is just my preference for adjusting with a hammer.
A handplane and a Supersurfacer are functionally the same.
I have used both for many years, the adjustment and settings are the same, the job that they do is the same.
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[Warren Mickley]

Ipe is hard on tools. I remember a friend who runs a sawmill telling me he bought a bunch of extra band mill blades in anticipation when he had to cut up ipe for flooring. I have a little sample that someone else gave me twenty years ago, I can't find it today, but I remember it was not something we would use for cabinetmaking. Hardness is 3684, which makes a lot of tropical timbers look pretty tame.

In thinking again about this I don't think the cap iron was the reason you were getting dust, More likely the edge was kind of beat up.

[Derek Cohen]

Well Josko, it is difficult to find faults here. I am assuming that the blade is sharp, as you have used a decent strategy, the mouth of the plane is not in question, the steel of the blade is actually irrelevant when freshly sharpened, but you are using good steel. All I can suggest is that you play with the distance for the chipbreaker. Dust suggests it is too close. Have you tried the other plane for comparison?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Josko Catipovic]

I've got it working now. #3 peels off a shaving like it always did, but #4 choked up until I backed off the chipbreaker. Difference to a small adjustment was quite amazing. Reason for the post is that I've never had a chipbreaker come up to the forefront like this before, and I started wondering what I've been missing all along. My guess is it kind of evolved to a decent position on woods I'm used to, and I think I've now got it working decently on ipe as well. But it sure got me thinking about how much room for improvement there is here.

[David Silverson]

I enjoy your knowledgeable posts but they would be much more enjoyable without the poorly hidden anger issues you seem to have.

[Jim Matthews]

That's the spirit!

Pictures of your plane (with measurements) might help.
Personally, I love the classic Record planes and delight in using O1 steel.

[Derek Cohen]

I've got it working now. #3 peels off a shaving like it always did, but #4 choked up until I backed off the chipbreaker. Difference to a small adjustment was quite amazing. Reason for the post is that I've never had a chipbreaker come up to the forefront like this before, and I started wondering what I've been missing all along. My guess is it kind of evolved to a decent position on woods I'm used to, and I think I've now got it working decently on ipe as well. But it sure got me thinking about how much room for improvement there is here.

Good work Josko!

I was planing some quarter sawn Tasmanian Oak today (for drawer sides), and getting dust along with the shavings. I recalled my comments to you, and backed off the chipbreaker a smidgeon. The dust went away.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Gibney]

Such an interesting discussion, I don't have the depth of experience using handtools as extensively as most of you here do.

How do you even know what the degree of angle is on a Stanley chipbreaker? It's a rounded shape where it comes into contact with the iron. How do you measure this?

[Jim Koepke]

Such an interesting discussion, I don't have the depth of experience using handtools as extensively as most of you here do.

How do you even know what the degree of angle is on a Stanley chipbreaker? It's a rounded shape where it comes into contact with the iron. How do you measure this?

It depends on what means you have to measure the angle. With an angle gauge:

427054

(This one is listed as being at Lowes for less than $10.)

It is possible to get a relative measurement of the angle between the blade and the deflection point of the chip breaker.

You could also cut a piece of scrap to 45º to use as an 'eyeball' gauge.

It may be a help to remember the perfect angle for one person's local lumber may not be ideal for someone else's local lumber. 50º may be a general sweet spot. There are also likely low angles that offer no interaction and higher angles causing too much push back on the shaving trying to exit.

If what you have is working well, it likely isn't broken, it may be better to not try fixing it.

jtk

[Mark Gibney]

Thanks Jim, I try that out. Maybe seeing is believing.

[Warren Mickley]

How do you even know what the degree of angle is on a Stanley chipbreaker? It's a rounded shape where it comes into contact with the iron. How do you measure this?

We usually can get a good gauge on this when we polish the cap iron on an oil stone. You can see the angle better by looking at the most extreme angle the cap iron makes with the stone.

In 2007 I wrote an email to Bill Tindall explaining the shaping and polishing of the cap iron. To come up with an angle, 80 degrees, I looked at the juncture of the two irons with a 10X loupe.

[Derek Cohen]

Such an interesting discussion, I don't have the depth of experience using handtools as extensively as most of you here do.

How do you even know what the degree of angle is on a Stanley chipbreaker? It's a rounded shape where it comes into contact with the iron. How do you measure this?

Mark ...

Begin by ensuring that the chipbreaker mates perfectly with the back of the blade.

Next, this is what I do with a standard LN or LV/Veritas chipbreaker, which will have a leading edge if 25 degrees. This receives a roughly 2mm wide secondary bevel using a honing guide at 50 degrees. At this stage, diamond stones are preferred. Say, 600 and 1200 grit.

Then round the bevel freehand on the 600. Keep a sliding bevel (or a sawn block of wood), set to 50 degrees, alongside. I borrow here from the blade sharpening technique of Paul Sellers (pulling the chipbreaker back, starting at a lower angle and ending at 50 degrees).

Once done, move to higher grits, still using the rounded action and guided by the sliding bevel - I use Spyderco ceramic stones as they are hard like an oilstone. Finish on green compound for the ultimate shine/smoothness.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Gibney]

Thanks guys, that's well explained.

[Josko Catipovic]

Another Ipe thing is it's murder on plane edges. Does it make sense to sharpen to a steeper angle (say 30 instead of 25 primary) when working very hard woods?

[Derek Cohen]

Josko, no bevel down plane blade should be sharpened at 25 degrees. Not even PM-V11. 30-35 degrees is optimum.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Josko Catipovic]

Josko, no bevel down plane blade should be sharpened at 25 degrees. Not even PM-V11. 30-35 degrees is optimum.

Regards from Perth

Derek
My bad - checked and they are at 30. Still, should they go steeper for very hard woods?

[steven c newman]

Hmmmm.....mine are all sharpened at 25 degrees....and are doing just fine, thank you very much.
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427358
Just a nice flat back, meeting a simple flat bevel....nothing complicated....and, these work the same way as went they were just off the factory floor. No "miracle steel" required. That last plane was made in WW2...still has the OEM iron and chipbreaker. And it planed that old, knotty white oak just fine...

Even Millers Falls stamped their iron with what angle to set the bevel to.....25 degrees. And..I have never had a Millers Falls plane chatter, ever. And, I work with all the hard Hardwoods one can get in Ohio....


Just a "Before" picture of that piece of Oak..
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Plane is a Millers Falls No. 15, Type 3.....same size as a Stanley No. 5-1/2 Jumbo Jack.

[Derek Cohen]

Yes Steven ... 25 degrees will cut wood. Hell, 15 degrees will cut wood. But not for very long.

Some of us have actually looked at what works better, and tested different angles. 25 degrees for O1 steel sucks when planing hardwoods, and especially abrasive hardwoods. 30-35 degrees lasts so much longer.

It is one thing being a curmudgeon; it is another being knowledgeable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[J. Greg Jones]

Even Millers Falls stamped their iron with what angle to set the bevel to.....25 degrees...
Not saying they didn’t do that at some point, but they certainly didn’t do it on all their planes. I have 11 Millers Falls planes, from Type 1 through Type 4, and none of mine have the sharpening bevel stamped on the blade.

[steven c newman]

OOOOH, My mistake....but..that do say 25 degrees, I just checked...
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Pictures worth a....
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These work on Ash, all the Maples, all the Oaks, all the Cherry, all the Walnut...as well as any Pine, or Poplar....you, just Ohio wood....may try some Hickory, if it shows up
427370
I guess it would help IF I was going WITH the grain..
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These are all a #4 size...YMMV

[J. Greg Jones]

I wonder if the difference here is grinding angle vs. honing angle? I grind the primary bevel to 25* also, but then I hone it to between 30* and 35*.

[Jim Koepke]

Most of my work is in soft woods so 25º works fine and doesn't dull too quickly. Some of my blades are at 30º for hardwood.

jtk

[Josko Catipovic]

I got home and checked all my plane blades. All the Record/Stanley ones are ground to and say '25 degrees', while the LV (PMV11) are all at 30 degrees. It's kind of embarrassing that I never noticed this before. What's going on here? Did Record not know how to set the primary angle on their plane blades?

[steven c newman]

Or..maybe they did indeed know what they were talking about....hmmmm

Where is that one fellow, the one that always claimed you needed 4 bevels, each different....in order to have the "perfect" edge?

KISS....then go from there...maybe the Old-timers might have known a thing or two about how to sharpen the tools way back then?

[Jim Koepke]

Where is that one fellow, the one that always claimed you needed 4 bevels, each different....in order to have the "perfect" edge?

He's probably stuck in his shop with all the time it takes him to set up a blade for all those different bevels.

For me, it is keep it simple with one flat bevel.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Actually ..

Brent Beach passed away about three months ago.

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/timescolonist/obituary.aspx?n=brent-d-beach&pid=194652011

Regards from Perth

Derek

[J. Greg Jones]

Or..maybe they did indeed know what they were talking about....hmmmm

Where is that one fellow, the one that always claimed you needed 4 bevels, each different....in order to have the "perfect" edge?

KISS....then go from there...maybe the Old-timers might have known a thing or two about how to sharpen the tools way back then?

What old-timers are we talking about, and what qualifies as “way back then”? My grandfather, born 1897, taught me how to sharpen plane irons by using a hand crank grinder to make the primary bevel and honing a secondary bevel on an oilstone. I’m re-reading right now one of my Charles Hayward (1898-1998) books from Lost Art Press and there is no question in his writing that, in his opinion, a primary grind angle followed by a secondary honing angle is the accepted way to sharpen plane irons. Leonard Lee and Ron Hock are also highly respected for their perspectives on sharpening, and they recommend(ed) a primary and secondary bevel. Everyone is certainly entitled to say that the ‘best’ way is to do it differently, but to say that sharpening with multiple bevels is a new development is just not accurate.

[J. Greg Jones]

Paul Sellers seems to be a well respected “old timer” here as well, and here is something I just came across on his sharpening routine:

“I want to revisit something that proved interesting throughout my tour in the US these past three months. I asked attendees at each seminar what angle we grind our chisel and plane bevels to and everyone said 25-degrees. I then asked what angle do we hone them to? The answer was a resounding “30-degrees” and so I asked them, “Why 30?”...”

https://paulsellers.com/2013/04/myth-and-mystery-surrounding-plane-and-chisel-bevels/

[Dennis Droege]

Fettle and fiddle
If it don't work,
Change it a little.