Sliding Dovetail Question

[Maurice Metzger]

Hello all,

I'd like to cut some sliding dovetails by hand. I was wondering if anyone had any good techniques for cutting the tongue that don't involve obtaining a dedicated dovetail plane or a combination plane. I'm planning on cutting some that are 14" long. The groove portion is not too difficult with a saw angle guide and a cranked neck chisel, although I've only practiced out to 8".

My plan right now is to cut each neck of the tongue with a saw resting on a block of wood cut at a 14 degree angle, and then cut off the top of the tongue. Hope that's clear, I can make up a diagram if needed.

The tools I have available for this are bench chisels, some small cranked neck chisels, a No. 39 1/4" dado plane, a No. 192 rabbet plane, a saw angle guide, and several Japanese rip and crosscut saws. Bench and block planes are standing by also. I've considered obtaining an extra blade for the rabbet plane and modifying it to cut at an angle.

I know that wooden boat builders are able to cut a varying bevel by hand into a stem and keel, I'd rather not attempt to do it freehand, unless someone knows of a technique suited to an all-thumbs type.

Thanks in advance for any ideas or suggestions (or even "My God, don't do that"s)!

[Jerry Palmer]

George Huron had an article in Issue 178 of FWW where he used handtools to make a hanging shelf with tapered sliding DTs. He used a handsaw to cut the shoulders of the tail board, then pared the shoulders with a chisel following layout lines on the ends and edges.

[Derek Cohen]

...any good techniques for cutting the tongue that don't involve obtaining a dedicated dovetail plane or a combination plane.

Step 1 - Mark out the dovetail (pic 1)
Step 2 - Saw the shoulder, then chisel out the waste (pic 2)
Step 3 - Optional: smooth out with either a shoulder plane, a skew block plane (#140), or a dovetail plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Owen]

For sliding dovetails as long as the ones you are planning to do (14 "), you might give some serious consideration to a dedicated dovetail plane, especially if you're going to be cutting a lot of them. It will make it a LOT easier to keep them straight and flat, especially if you're going cross-grain. ECE makes a nice adjustable-width wooden dovetail plane that The Best Things sells for about $120.

[Mark Singer]

If you have a tablesaw...cut a board at the angle. Clamp it to the piece sandwiching the blade as a guide.

[Derek Cohen]

Here is a picture of the dovetail plane I recently made (out of an old, tired and warped skew rabbet plane).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Owen]

Here is a picture of the dovetail plane I recently made (out of an old, tired and warped skew rabbet plane).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Nice way to recycle an old plane! It looks like it does a very nice job of cutting dovetails, too. Great idea.

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

Derek Cohen's dovetail plane is a person who takes pride in his workmanship for sure.

Does anyone?...Derek?...have some plans or steps or rough drawings that I might follow to do the same. I have the rough pencil plans from a Michaud but I require more detail. Can anyone help or point me in the right direction?

[harry strasil]

For What It's Worth, and remembering I am only a blacksmith.

I use a router plane to clean out the bottom of my sliding dovetail grooves. leaves a nice smooth bottom and no high - lows.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/router2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/router3.jpg


If the groove is too tight, I have a piece of oak with a 10 degree bevel on one side and on the other side is a 20 degree bevel, I use contact cement to glue strips of old sanding belt to these surfaces and I can just set down in the groove and touch it up a little bit, also works for the pin part of the shelf too. just hold sideways. and rub back and forth a few times. a lot easier than using a chisel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/dovetailsandingblock.jpg

And I also have a scraper with 10 and 20 degree tapers for scrapping dovetails to fit.

The 3 in the middle are dovetail planes.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/planes2.jpg

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

So Harry...do you have some plans you would share so I might make my own dovetail plane?........i would be most thankful?:)

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

...and while I am at it does anyone have plans for the saw used to cut sliding dovetails?:cool:

[harry strasil]

Micheal, Easiest way is to find an old moulding style skew angle dado plane and just modify it and make a fence for it.

[harry strasil]

Once it gets warm enough to get my demo tools outa the trailer, I may try a step by step blueprint,(that's what we call them on the blacksmith site) actually a demo with pics and text on how I make dovetails.

[Richard Gillespie]

In the process of matching the finish on an antique table I just repaired. Two of the three legs had to be replaced. They were fitted into the center leg(?) with sliding dovetails. The female portion on the center leg was cut with a taper towards the top.

I marked the dovetails on the two legs and using both a cross cut and rip saw cut them by hand. The dovetails themselves were cut fat. I used a pencil to color the inside faces of the dovetails and with trial and error fitted the dovetails. I used two tools, a LV shoulder plane and a very sharp 1/2" paring chisel. The chisel worked best. When I was finished I wiped off the pencil with rubbing alcohol.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Michael

I am in the process of writing an article about constructing a dovetail plane. It will be a little while yet, although much of it is done.

Here are a few more pictures of the one I made.

Here you can see the skewed blade. Notice that the blade is further forward on the side that cuts the outer edge first. This is to reduce chip out.

The sole is angled to match a 1:6 slope. This is approximately 10 degrees, but I measured it with a dovetail guide.

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/Dovetailplanefence.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

In the second series of pictures you can see the depth gauge and the slitter.

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/Dovetailplanenickercombo.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

Discussion of the design and construction of this and other dovetail planes can be found at:
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=25000

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

Thanks Derek, Richard and Harry. I think I might be able to get going slowly. I am anxiously awaiting the results of both Harry's and Derek's step by step articles. These would be most helpful.

I noticed Richard mentioned taking an old skew plane and making an adaptation...so I wonder what everyone else does about acquiring the steel?
...and if saws are used with these planes?

I will post a pic showing what i have and perhaps someone can help....i will be back.

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

I am hoping to show Derek and Harry (our two dovetail plane experts) that I think the attach shows that I have the component parts necessary to build but was wanting some guidance on how to start. I assume that the main body is laminated from three piecies?...and the slot is cut at an angle on top?...drawings would be helpful but what do you guys think?:confused:

[Mike Wenzloff]

I imagine Derek will help you out. It's his work day now, but you never know when he'll pop in.

Take care, Mike

[Louis Bois]

Maurice, the technique that Derek described is the best if you've only got one or 2 to make...but as others have said, you may want to invest a bit of time in making a dovetail plane if you plan on making this a regular joint in your joinery arsenal. There's a nice set of plans on Louis Michaud's website (see link below) and you can see the finished product on Brian Buckner's site (see the second link).

I haven't made one yet, but I'll probably use this approach when I do.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Louis


http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Shores/8907/louis.html

http://www.sydnassloot.com/bbuckner/planes.htm

[Mark Stutz]

Michael,
I can't tell for sure from your picture but that seems a litte large for the usual dovetail plane. I don't think I have seen one that large with a depth stop. Does it have a moveable bottom fence? Is it a panel raiser? user modified? The iron looks to be skewed as well, which is what makes me wonder about a panel raiser.

Mark

[Derek Cohen]

Michael

The advice that Louis has provided is spot on. My dovetail plane was largely developed out of the plans of Louis Michaud. You will not go wrong with this.

Mark also has a good point and I agree with him - the plane in your picture appears to be a panel raiser. Find an old skew bladed rabbet woodie to convert instead.

Once you have one, the first step is to mark and plane the sole to a 1:6 angle (use a dovetail marker to measure this), then grind the blade to the correct angle. The third step is to build a fence. This is nicely illustrated in Brian Buckner's plane (link is above). Fourthly, add a depth stop. Then fifth and finally, add a slitter for cross grain cutting. I used an old 3/8" chisel blade that I slit at the top, then chamfered so that a float screw head would sit flush. I prefered this to suggestions of bandsaw or hacksaw blades since I wanted something more substantial.

To date I have cut the female section with a saw, chisel and router plane. I am in the process of building a dovetail plane to cut this section as well and will post pictures once it is completed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

Thanks Louis...great illustration and I already have Michauds plans.

Thank you Derek as well....I await your guidance.

The plane in the pic is an old panel raising plane that had no iron...i just showed it to illustrate it had a depth guide which i could use. the iron was from an old rabbet plane and the steel is for the scribe. when you say 1:6 on the bottom?...is that 10%? Also to cut the hole through the plane to hold the iron is this done in a solid piece of wood or 3 pieces spliced?

thank you all for you ongoing patience and help:confused::)

[Derek Cohen]

Michael

Here are two more pictures of the dovetail plane details. Keep in mind that I started with a skew rabbet plane (warped and in poor condition) and rebuilt the sole and mouth, then modified it.

Below are details of the add-on body for the sliding fence. These are outlined in black for clarity.

<center><I>FRONT</I></center>
<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/SDP2a.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

<center><I>REAR</I></center>
<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/SDP1b.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

Hope this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

Derek,

Yes...thank you for the photos. I am including 3 photos of potential candidates...although I am torn because they are all in pretty good shape...so I am also considering building from scratch. Anyway the photos show the 3 planes I have that could be converted...the two on the ends are 1 1/8" wide while the center one is 1 5/8" wide. When you talk about rebuilding the sole what does that entail? And what is the process used in reshaping the iron?...Note the 3 views...any comments on these?

Thanks.:confused::)

[frank shic]

http://www.furnituremasters.org/contmoreby.cfm?ID=26

i've constructed a similar plane like derek's out of a used rabbet plane after being inspired a couple months earlier on another woodworking forum. just needs a fence and i'm good to go!

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

Frank,

Thanks for the tip and the great link........best drawing I have seen yet. I have been to your web link before...good stuff. Thanks.....I might give it go.:)

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

Frank,

How do I get to the first part of that article?

[frank shic]

http://www.furnituremasters.org/moreby.cfm?ID=26

good luck, michael!

[Michael Morin dit Boucher]

I would like to ask Derek where he obtained those nice brass screws for his plane?

I would also like to ask Derek and Harry how you cut the 80 degree sole for the plane?...with another plane (as was suggested in the link from Mr. Shic) or a table saw perhaps?

Since I am having trouble figuring out how to cut an angled notch through a new piece of wood and am having problems figuring out how to reconfigure the steel blade I figured I would retrofit one of my Skew planes for at least my initial go at this task. Once I get the 80 degree angle cut along the sole my only question is how do I reconfigure the blade after the cut...again using water and a grinder as suggested by Mr. Shic's link.

Any and all comments are welcomed.:confused::eek:

[harry strasil]

My dovetail planes are rather crude compared to the fine examples already shown, but here goes, most are made from scratch not converted.

I use two angles 10° and 20°, this is my saw guide. I first lay out the dovetail and then using a knife, cut deep and trim away a chamfer for the saw start and clamp this guide to the piece and saw to depth holding the blade against the guide.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/cuttingguide.jpg

Then saw several kerfs in the waste, knock it out and rough the bottom with these skew chisels.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/skewchisels.jpg

Clean up to a uniform depth with a router.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/router.jpg

Finish the sides with a sanding block
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/10and20sandingblock.jpg

Or if more is needed removed use this dovetail plane
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/dvtlplane4.jpg
The big knurled thumb nut is to hold the blade in place, the single screw is to tilt the blade to control the depth of cut and the other two screws are to control the tilt of the blade as it is on an angle.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/dvtlplane6.jpg

I can also use this little scraper to work on the tapered sides.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/scraper1.jpg

I use one of these for the pin parts of the sliding dovetail, 20° on the left, 10° on the right. The blades are made from old laid on plane blades, cut to width and the skew angle ground on the cutting edge.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/dvtlplane3.jpg
The bottom side.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/dvtlplane1.jpg
A view from the left front.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/dvtlplane2.jpg

[harry strasil]

I can also use this side router after sawing the shoulder and roughing with a skew chisel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/siderouter.jpg

And if necessary there is always this scraper.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/scraper2.jpg

In the basement shop with a little more modern hand tools, the mortise part of the dovetails can be cleaned up or widened with this Stanley 79 with a custom fence.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/79wfence.jpg

So much for the junk planes.

It would only let me post 10 pics so the reason for two posts.

[harry strasil]

As to Micheal Morin's question about do I have any plans, No I don't, most of my tools start as an idea in my head and then just kind of evolve without benefit of any plans or drawings. Sorry,
And as for plans for a saw to use sawing dovetails, I just use a small back saw.