Help me understand the MSDS for Honing Oil

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Help me understand the MSDS for Honing Oil. Remember, I have not had Chemistry since high school, in the early 1980's.

Norton Sharpening Oil - Highly refined Mineral Oil

I was told that Norton Sharpening Oil is not much more than highly refined mineral oil and the MSDS was pretty easy to understand even for me:


This product is a fully refined white mineral oil meeting the requirements of the National Formulary XVII and the requirements of the Food and Drug Administration as per 21 CFR 172.878. May contain up to 10ppm Tocopherols as stabilizer.



Smith’s Sharpening Solution - Water with cleaners, lubricants, and emolients


I had Smith’s Sharpening Solution explained to me as mentioned below, and when I looked at the MSDS, I said “yeah, OK, I can see that”:


A Mixture of emollients, lubricants, cleaners and a mild corrosion inhibitor. Features built-in stone cleaning agents and rust/corrosion inhibitors. Excellent for lubricating your Arkansas or Diamond Stone when sharpening. Non-petroleum based with built-in stone cleaning agents and rust/corrosion inhibitors.

Dan's Honing Oil - ???


Then, I looked at the MSDS for Dan’s. I found an old post from 2014 that claimed that Dan’s contains Kerosene, but Dan’s site claims it is a Light Mineral Oil. Dan’s has a very distinctive odor, but I do not know the smell of Kerosene. The MSDS (from Cross Oil) reads as follows:




(Cas: 0064742-53-6) MINERAL OIL, PETROLEUM DISTILLATES, HYDROTREATED (MILD) LIGHT NAPHTHENIC (77% - 100%)
(Cas: 0000128-39-2) 2,6-DI-T-BUTYLPHENOL (0.0% - 0.3%)


Specific chemical identity and/or exact percentage (concentration) of the composition has been withheld to protect confidentiality.

Could this be mineral oil with essentially Kerosene in it?

Nathan’s Natural Honing Oil - ???


This is where things feel a little strange. Nathan’s Natural Honing Oil claims to be a Highly refined oil (sounds like Mineral Oil). Nathan’s smells about the same as Dan’s to me. The MSDS from “Superior Lubricants” reads as follows:




(Chemical Name) Highly Refined Petroleum Base Oil 100% (CAS Number) Mixture




Case - ???

I asked Case for their MSDS, and I have no response.



Gatco Hone Oil

I do not know who to ask for the GATCO hone oil MSDS, but, I see things such as:


Specially formulated FDA-approved honing oil is designed to insure the maximum suspension of metal fouling and abrasive particles for longer stone life and superior cutting efficiency. But this is where things get a little strange. On seller claims that it can be used for any sharpener that can use an oil or water. It contains protectans. It can even lube bolts to a door. Everyone specifically says “do not use OIL on your diamond stones”, but this stuff claims to act like an oil, but can be used on your diamond stones and it ships with Gatco’s set of diamond stones. Smith’s also works on diamond stones.



Trend - light petroleum distillate with naphtha - ???


Trend, which looks like the Gatco, claims to be a A Petroleum based lightweight fluid. I never bothered with Trend fluid because it is so expensive and I had never heard of anyone using it on anything other than diamond stones. The MSDS, looks like many of the others in that it is vaguely a petroleum product.




Hydrotreated light distillate (petroleum) (CAS No) 64742-47-8 45.0 - 55.0% Asp. Tox - Cat.1 H304 (EC No) 265-149-8 EUH066 (EC Index No) 649-422-00-2
Hydrotreated heavy naphtha (CAS No) 64742-48-9 30.0 - 40.0% Asp. Tox - Cat.1 H304 (EC No) 265-150-3 (EC Index No) 649-327-00-6 Flam. Liq. 4:H227 EUH066

[Barney Markunas]

Generally the information on an SDS is there to check the regulatory boxes for hazard communication. Trade secret/competitive advantage considerations can result in them being pretty hit or miss (mostly miss in my experience) on actually providing much in the way of details beyond those that they are designed to provide.

Somebody way more knowledgeable in organic chemistry will hopefully chime. Petroleum distillates covers a lot of ground... kind of like saying that that a highboy is "wood", when you are really wondering if it is Cuban mahogany or Honduran mahogany or African mahogany that isn't really mahogany. I think you will find that the
2,6-DI-T-BUTYLPHENOL reported in Dan's is an antioxidant and UV stabilizer.

[Jim Koepke]

Help me understand the MSDS for Honing Oil. Remember, I have not had Chemistry since high school, in the early 1980's.
[edited]


What is it you want to understand?

Best oil for use with your stones? If you have any of them, try them out and report your findings.

Best all around? For me it is simple to pick up a pint of food grade mineral oil at the local supermarket. Then there are no worries about using it on wood utensils and cutting boards.

Do the MSDS reports have anything to indicate if these are food safe or not to be used on items coming in contact with food?

The next step would be to purchase a bottle of mineral oil and what ever solvent you want to give a try and mix up a small test batch.

The supermarket mineral oil may be a bit thick for some. It has been working for me.


On seller claims that it can be used for any sharpener that can use an oil or water.

This doesn't necessarily mean it can be used on water stones. My read of this is if a stone can use oil or water, this product will work on such a stone.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

What is it you want to understand?


Even if it is not entirely accurate, could it be ball-park correct to say that Dan's contains something similar to kerosene that probably acts as a thinner?

I do own a gallon of food grade mineral oil, but, I expect that it will gum things up if I do not reduce it and just let it sit.

I own all of the products listed except for the Trend product.

I cannot really tell the difference between Norton's Honing Oil and "Premium honing oil", I expect them to be essentially the same thing.

Some products were given to me, some were purchased.

Andrew

[Jim Koepke]

I do own a gallon of food grade mineral oil, but, I expect that it will gum things up if I do not reduce it and just let it sit.

Gum things up?

Sometimes a puddle of good old store bought mineral oil sits on my stones for a few days without gumming things up.

It doesn't seem to thicken or form a film like a polymerizing oil would.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Gum things up?

Sometimes a puddle of good old store bought mineral oil sits on my stones for a few days without gumming things up.

It doesn't seem to thicken or form a film like a polymerizing oil would.

jtk

I have an oil stone that I use on axes almost soaking in the food grade mineral oil, and I should probably pull it out, but.....

Noah Wagener stated:


I started out using Norton honing oil on Arkansas stones and switched to baby oil as mentioned on here and other places as the Norton oil is so expensive. The baby oil is pretty gummy and messy.

Then you have this post by Warren Mickley:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?212778-quot-Smith-s-Honing-Solution-quot-Oil-for-India-Ark-slips&p=2210784#post2210784

The bold portion was made bold by me, not by warren.


Joshua, you want an oil that is viscous enough to suspend the steel particles, so that even if your fluid is black with steel the stone does not load up. Fluids like wd40, kerosene, water, and mineral spirits do not suspend the steel particles very well, so you have to keep cleaning and flushing the stone. I have used Smith's oil and Norton's oil. Both are very nice for honing, but not the cheapest oils available.

Generally oils are a mixture of various different weight oils and you sort of get an average viscosity. An oil that has the right viscosity, however, can lose the lighter components to evaporation and become gummy, especially if the stone is left unused for a period. The better quality oils like the specially made honing oils have components in a tighter range so that they retain the viscosity and do not gum up.

I used to use a mixture of motor oil and kerosene, which is nice because you can adjust the viscosity in the winter. I stopped using it because I found that exposure to kerosene in full time work irritated my throat. I now use thread cutting oil, which is cheap, but it would be a problem for someone not using the stones regularly, because it is not as highly refined as honing oil.

And now, I did not miss your comment just a little bit further down :)

I noticed that there is a difference when I use Dan's Honing Oil than when I use Norton's mineral oil. If I have reason to believe that what they added is at least somewhat similar to Kerosene, I might try adding a bit of Kerosene to some of my Mineral oil (food grade or even the Norton oil) to see if I like it better. I was also thinking that if i did that, I could probably buy the odorless Kerosene; for example, Kleenheet. So I am curious what some of those added things are likely to be doing to the oil to change the properties.

I have found that I prefer to use my diamond stones with Smith's than to use them dry. From what I can tell, this will also prevent rust, which is probably a good thing since I saw a bit of rust (or discoloring) on one of my diamond stones in one section even though I work hard to dry them off when I am finished.

I ordered the Gatco stuff so that I can give that a try on my diamond stones.

[Jim Koepke]

You might try looking for restaurant supply businesses in your area if you want to try to find a lighter viscosity mineral oil.

You may also want to learn a bit about viscosity measuring if you really want to get into quantifying your various oils. It might be as easy as timing how fast a ball bearing drops in a column of oil.

At times my mineral oil does seem a touch heavy with little feed back. A lighter oil, of course, would feel lighter and end up with less lubrication between the stone and the edge being worked. This would improve the feedback.

Maybe a little thinner in my oil would make sharpening a bit easier. Maybe one day my curiosity will get me to do some experiments with honing oil.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Wondering what the 3 in 3in1 oil consists of.....since that is all I use...

[Andrew Seemann]

One thing I noticed on MSDS's when I used to work with them is that for proprietary things, it seems like they were written by the marketing department and read a little like an advertisement, but if they were for more of a commodity (e.g. sand, table salt, glycerin, etc) they emphasized all the potential bad and hazardous things, probably for liability reasons. If you read the MSDS for sodium bicabonate (baking soda) you would never eat a biscuit again. Now admittedly, these are written more for continuous workplace exposure, and some of those effects can happen in that environment with even common substances. I worked with enough petroleum products in my youth that I get a rash now from exposure to mineral spirits, kerosene, and similar volatiles.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Wondering what the 3 in 3in1 oil consists of.....since that is all I use...

For you Steve, I looked around and...

3-in-OneOil is a general-purpose lubricating oil designed for bicycles. Theysay 3 because it is supposed to be able to clean, lubricate andprotect (from corrosion). Ironically, although their tag line beginswith “clean”, it is a non-detergent oil.
Whatit contains:




SeverelyHydrotreated Heavy Naphthenic Oil (cas: 64742-52-5) >97% and isNot hazardous
Naphtha,petroleum (cas: 64742-47-8) <2% and is Aspiration ToxicityCategory 1
Non-HazardousIngredients Mixture <3% Not Hazardous



Ithink that the Naphtha will thin the oil and clean metal. I thinkthat Naphthenic Oil in particular is very good at dissolving thingsand is often used in cleaners. Also, it is supposed to be good at lowtemperatures. Oh, and I think that it should NOT leave a film.


AndI found this:
Whatare Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy naphthenic? They arehigh quality naphthenic base oils with a low pour point and goodsolvency properties. They have been extensively hydrotreatedresulting in low aromatic, clear, bright and less colored mineral oilwith excellent stability.
Howare Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy naphthenic used?Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy naphthenic base oil areintended for use as blending components in specialty lubricants,greases, metalworking oils and functional fluids

My only concern would be if it is able to float away the resulting metal shavings, but.... if people can use the stones dry or with just water, it will surely do better than that :o

And yes, it seems that some people prefer to use an Arkansas stone without lubrication, but, then they have to do some specific cleaning later. I once heard an opinion stated that if it lubricates, it will reduce cutting. If it is too thin, it will not float away the generated metal. So, you want to find something that suits your style and need for effectiveness... But I think that I am not experienced enough to have a strong opinion on this yet; but Lord knows I am trying.

[steven c newman]

Worked in the rubber industry for over 20 years....imagine the MSDS for all the stuff we would add to the batch....just to make a simple water hose.....let alone a fuel line....

Main things I got from all that...."Zinc Chills" and COPD. Some of the people I worked with....died of cancer.

[Charles Murray Ohio]

I personally use Walmart's brand of mineral oil (around $1.00) I figure if its designed to drink, it should be safe on your hands. By the way my hands have never been constipated since I started using this!

[William Fretwell]

Also have used 3:1 oil for decades on my oil stone. Does not gum it up, just wipe off with a rag to clean when finished. A new stone will take quite a bit of clean oil to start with but after that very little. As for the blade, just wipe and store.

Light paraffin oil makes a good electric razor lubricant in a small squeeze bottle, a teaspoon should last about 5 years. I do dismantle the electric razor and sharpen the flat cutter surfaces up to 10,000 grit on water stones, a big improvement on the factory sharpening.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I personally use Walmart's brand of mineral oil (around $1.00) I figure if its designed to drink, it should be safe on your hands. By the way my hands have never been constipated since I started using this!

Inquiring minds want to know, where your hand constipated before you started using mineral oil? :-)

We had a cow (when I was younger and living at home) that ate too many green apples and was very sick. We expected her to die. We force fed her literally gallons of mineral oil over two days. Got things moving.

[Rafael Herrera]

Andrew, a quick search on the price of Dan's honing oil and a some math results in a $190 per gallon product. Compare that with about $15 for a gallon of mineral oil. I'm wondering what is it that you want to know, after all the discussion this past weeks it's pretty clear that there is no "true" answer, use whatever fits your style and wallet. Also, from my quick research, it appears mineral oil does not evaporate. I wipe my stones clean after use and keep them in wooden boxes, that takes care of any potential gumming up.

Rafael

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Andrew, a quick search on the price of Dan's honing oil and a some math results in a $190 per gallon product. Compare that with about $15 for a gallon of mineral oil. I'm wondering what is it that you want to know, after all the discussion this past weeks it's pretty clear that there is no "true" answer, use whatever fits your style and wallet. Also, from my quick research, it appears mineral oil does not evaporate. I wipe my stones clean after use and keep them in wooden boxes, that takes care of any potential gumming up.

Rafael

I was hoping that someone would see what was written and have some comments about possible purposes for what you see. For example, and I spent a lot of time to make these guesses, I believe that:

Someone explained the MSDS for Smith's stuff in very generic easy terms for me with things such as "cleaning agents" and similar. I was hoping that someone would do the same for say Dan's. Something like:



2,6-Di-tert-butylphenol is a colorless solid alkylated phenol and its derivatives are used industrially as UV stabilizers and antioxidants for hydrocarbon-based products ranging from petrochemicals to plastics.
Napthenic oils have high enough viscosity to be considered an "oil", but they have good solvent properties. They can be somewhat volatile but don't have to be. It's a pretty large group of compounds. Naps are used where high solvencey is needed. So you might get some cleaning action, or similar. The problem is that they have a tendency to oxidize (I think), but that 6-Di-tert-butylphenol should help with that.


I believe that light Napthenic oil has hydrocarbons in the range of C15 through C30 (depending on many things, perhaps even lower). I do not fully understand what that means, but I think that "C6" means that there are 6 carbon atoms in each molecule. Mineral Oil seems to have carbon numbesr between C15 through C50, but Mineral oil is specifically listed as its own thing with Dan's MSDS. So just generally what does that stuff in there do / mean? I had expected to say something like:

That stuff is vaguely what is in Kerosene, but, I think that is not the case, even though someone indicated that six years ago, Dan's had kerosene in it. I mean it might still have that.

I started using Smith's when I figured out that it might help against rust with my diamond stones; since I was seeing signs that might be an issue for me. Sure, Mineral Oil should also help prevent rust, but I wanted to know what that other stuff in there might be doing.

[Prashun Patel]

Paraffin wax, Mineral oil, mineral spirits, and naphtha are all hydrocarbons in their pure form. They were the purest form of “oil” as we think of it. They differ in viscosity and (I believe) density.

The commercial forms may be blends of these or may not have the inpurities removed. This is the case with kerosene. Kerosene is mineral spirits that hasn’t been refined.

Because they are all similar chemically, they can be blended to achieve the right evaporation or lubrication properties you are after.

Most “oil” based lubes, honing oils, varnishes use some sort of the above as the solvent. Where it gets tricky is in water based, where it really means water-compatible, not necessarily water-containing. These can have tricky and proprietary solvent blends that don’t always appear on the sds so you don’t always know what you are getting.

[James Pallas]

I do as I learned years ago. I use food grade mineral oil. I was taught that the oil was used to float the swarf not necessarily as a lubricant. Use enough oil so there is a thin sheet on the stone. When finished sharpening scrape the excess along with the swarf from the stone. Do not wipe the stone with anything that would make lint, rags, paper towels etc. I use the end of a card scraper. Cover the stone when not in use to keep dust off and slow down any evaporation if there is any. Apply a line of clean oil each time you use the stone or if it doesn’t have enough film to float the swarf. If the oil is too thick the stone won’t cut well, if too thin you mash the swarf into the stone. If the stone looks shiny when in use ok, if you see dry spots not enough.

[Rafael Herrera]

well, again from my quick internet searches, the term mineral oil is not very specific by itself. So, to not make this more complicated, I'd say let's just describe mineral oil as a "odorless thin oil". Kerosene (known in other places as "paraphine") is a combustible oil, but it's not "mineral oil". If it's not in the MSDS for Dan's, then it probably does not contain it. Naphthenic oil is "mineral oil". I understan from the wiki page that 2,6-Di-tert-butylphenol helps prevent the product to degrade when exposed to light ("UV stabilizer") and inhibits oxidation, which I suppose if you cover iron or steel with it it will inhibit rust.

It's up to you to chose what to use, I use 409 on my one diamond stone, rust has not been a big deal in my case. I've been using food grade mineral oil (whatever that means) on my oilstones without issues. On the other hand, some people commented that they use neatsfoot oil, I was curious and ordered some. It's much thicker than mineral oil, and just slightly more expensive. I have yet to gain some experience with it.

Rafael

[Jim Koepke]

I've been using food grade mineral oil (whatever that means) on my oilstones without issues.

Food grade means it is safe to use with food processing equipment. A non-food grade mineral oil could conceivably contain materials harmful to human health.

In chemistry there are chemicals graded for use by industry. Acetic acid used in metal processing industries may not by usable in the photographic material handling industry. A minuscule amount of iron in a metal cleaning solution would be no problem whereas it might leave some ugly stains on photo films or prints. (Maybe there isn't much photographic use these days, but back when it was my job it was more important to know.)

jtk

[Dan Schocke]

This article should help explain why the names for some of these compounds are pretty vague:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_distillation

There's an example of refining crude oil at the end of the article, but basically each of the compound names represents a plate or tray in a fractional distillation column where a certain mix of hydrocarbons is usually present. It's really difficult to isolate a specific hydrocarbon, so bulk commodities like "gasoline" or "kerosene" or "diesel oil" are always a mix of different hydrocarbons that are roughly similar in thermal properties. Each one of those can be further refined with more distillation or via chemical reaction to produce a more consistent product.

Hydrotreating is a process that is used to saturate the hydrocarbon chains with hydrogen atoms instead of more reactive things like Oxygen, Nitrogen, Sulfur, etc. This is probably way more important in terms of preventing the "gummy" experience than evaporation of lighter hydrocarbons in the mix.

--Dan

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The commercial forms may be blends of these or may not have the inpurities removed. This is the case with kerosene. Kerosene is mineral spirits that hasn’t been refined.

Because they are all similar chemically, they can be blended to achieve the right evaporation or lubrication properties you are after.

Most “oil” based lubes, honing oils, varnishes use some sort of the above as the solvent. Where it gets tricky is in water based, where it really means water-compatible, not necessarily water-containing. These can have tricky and proprietary solvent blends that don’t always appear on the sds so you don’t always know what you are getting.

One of the most useful explanations for me, thankyou.

I was wondering why someone had recommended using Mineral Spirits rather than Kerosene. I have Mineral Spirits sitting around my shop, not Kerosene. Given that it is a more refined Kerosene, it all makes sense now.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

well, again from my quick internet searches, the term mineral oil is not very specific by itself. So, to not make this more complicated, I'd say let's just describe mineral oil as a "odorless thin oil". Kerosene (known in other places as "paraphine") is a combustible oil, but it's not "mineral oil". If it's not in the MSDS for Dan's, then it probably does not contain it. Naphthenic oil is "mineral oil". I understan from the wiki page that 2,6-Di-tert-butylphenol helps prevent the product to degrade when exposed to light ("UV stabilizer") and inhibits oxidation, which I suppose if you cover iron or steel with it it will inhibit rust.

It's up to you to chose what to use, I use 409 on my one diamond stone, rust has not been a big deal in my case. I've been using food grade mineral oil (whatever that means) on my oilstones without issues. On the other hand, some people commented that they use neatsfoot oil, I was curious and ordered some. It's much thicker than mineral oil, and just slightly more expensive. I have yet to gain some experience with it.

Rafael

I have a bottle of highly refined "paraphine", that was suggested as a better smelling fuel for a kerosene lamp. And now it makes sense. I wonder about the shelf life, it is probably no good now.

I have read that some people like using 409 or even cheap glass cleaner (probably has ammonia in it).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

This article should help explain why the names for some of these compounds are pretty vague:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_distillation

There's an example of refining crude oil at the end of the article, but basically each of the compound names represents a plate or tray in a fractional distillation column where a certain mix of hydrocarbons is usually present. It's really difficult to isolate a specific hydrocarbon, so bulk commodities like "gasoline" or "kerosene" or "diesel oil" are always a mix of different hydrocarbons that are roughly similar in thermal properties. Each one of those can be further refined with more distillation or via chemical reaction to produce a more consistent product.

Hydrotreating is a process that is used to saturate the hydrocarbon chains with hydrogen atoms instead of more reactive things like Oxygen, Nitrogen, Sulfur, etc. This is probably way more important in terms of preventing the "gummy" experience than evaporation of lighter hydrocarbons in the mix.

--Dan

This puts many things in place in my head. As a simple example, I knew that if you distilled water that contained certain chemicals, a simple distillation would leave those chemicals that vaporized at the same time or before water. I was aware that you could do something that would pull things at different temperatures, and that WIKI link really demonstrates this.

I also had not considered why things I was reading mentioned things related to boiling point and vaporization temperature (did I say that right?); because it matters in the distillation process. Perfect!

[Graham Haydon]

Have you tried neatsfoot oil?

[steven c newman]

Isn't Kerosene also Jet Fuel? Also part of what WD40 has in it.....


used to run a KeroSun heater..a LOT.....$5 a gallon for what my Late FIL used to call "Coal Oil".....

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Have you tried neatsfoot oil?

I have not simply because I do not have any around. I know that it used to be a standard to use, but, so many people tell me that they thin it 50/50 with Kerosene when they use it because they feel it is a bit heavy.

Ken Hatch mentioned that kerosene has changed and is "drier" than the kerosene we used on the farm many years ago. It seems, however, that kerosene is a good cleaner of swarf clogged stones.


William Adams claimed that when he looked at Neatsfoot oil, it had "petroleum products" in it, so be sure that you buy 100% neatsfoot oil.


Side note: Neatsfoot oil is made from cow bones and feat I think.


George Wilson says that Neatsfoot Oil stinks. I think that I used to use it on saddles, and do not remember it smelling bad, but, I am old and have not oiled a saddle in years so it might have been some other kind of leather oil.

[steven c newman]

Always used the stuff on Baseball gloves....at least the new ones.....made the gloves a bit less stiff.

[Rafael Herrera]

The Soyuz rockets use kerosene and liquid oxygen, as well as the Saturn V rockets that carried the astronauts to the moon. It's short of amazing what good engineering can do.


Isn't Kerosene also Jet Fuel? Also part of what WD40 has in it.....

[mike stenson]

Isn't Kerosene also Jet Fuel? Also part of what WD40 has in it.....
..

Kerosene and diesel are very similar. You can pretty much substitute them in a pinch. JP4 is a 50/50 kerosene/gasoline mix as I recall, and JP8 is kerosene based.

[Tom M King]

I thought about this when I bought some high flash point solvent for a parts washer today. No time to look at it any further yet, and haven't even opened the 5 gallon can. Kerosene works fine for cleaning tractor parts, but this stuff is supposed to be safer. It's also supposed to have less smell than Kerosene, but Kero never smelled bad to me.

I was thinking this stuff, and Klotz 2-stroke oil might have promise. Klotz smells great when burning it in a saw, and has a great reputation for making engines last a long time.

[Stew Denton]

Hi All,

A few comments, which may help understand some of the terms in the MSDS.

In my opinion I am not an extreme expert in such matters, but have worked with solvents and various refinery streams somewhat extensively on and off, etc., for almost 30 years in my work as an applied research chemist.

Please understand that the following is "to the best of my knowledge" but I do not claim every word to be perfectly correct.

I believe the term "mineral" in the terms "mineral spirits" and "mineral oil" came about to differentiate distilled crude oil product from previously existing solvents such as turpentine which were distilled from living things. (Turpentine is distilled from material obtained from evergreen trees.) The term "mineral" was chosen because these are distilled from crude oil, which ultimately came from the ground, and since the crude oil came from the ground, it was originally classed as a "mineral."

"Spirits" often means some essence of a material that can be separated from that material by distillation, or now in some cases by extraction using a solvent. Spirits have come to mean relatively lower boiling of the materials thus separated from the starting material.

"Oils" on the other hand are materials that are much higher boiling. Thus "mineral spirits" are lower boiling than "mineral oils." The boiling point of the hydrocarbons in refinery streams are determined by the number of carbon atoms in the atoms in that fraction. I have read that mineral spirits are typically made up of hydrocarbon fractions containing molecule sizes of from 7 carbon atoms to 12 carbon atoms or so. This would correlate well with my personal experience in dealing with such solvents, and I have worked extensively with solvents in that carbon number range, and many solvents of other carbon number ranges as well.

My guess is that mineral oils are made up of molecules running from more like 20 to 30 carbon atoms. My recollection is that once you get to narrow distillation fraction containing mostly something like 25 carbon atoms, the material becomes a semisolid to a solid material at room temperature. (I am not taking a wild guess about this, as I have done these fractional distillations myself many times, but do not recall the exact molecular size that such occurs.) It is possible that my estimate of the carbon number size is also a bit too high. I have not analyzed any of the material to see, but may some of these times.

The term "light" means relatively low boiling for a given type of material, meaning it is that fraction of the material made up of molecules having a smaller number of carbon atoms than the material as a whole. The term "distillate" means a product resulting from a distillation, and means the product that was evaporated overhead and condensed by this distillation process.

At any rate the bigger molecules (those containing more carbon atoms) have higher boiling points and viscosities than do the smaller molecules. Also, hydrocarbon molecules of different chemical families vary greatly in physical properties, so it is possible to have "oils" of larger carbon number, if from the right hydrocarbon family.

The term "hydrotreated" means that hydrogen has been reacted with a hydrocarbon fraction to change to composition of the compounds that can react with the hydrogen. These compounds are typically compounds with what are called double bonds, aromatic compounds, etc., to produce compounds that do not have these compositions. This process greatly reduces the toxicity, the potential for odor, and the tendency for the fraction to form gums, etc. The term "highly refined" can mean a lot of different things, as it can refer to many different refinery process, but it can mean hydrogenation, careful distillation, de-sulfurization, etc. This generally means a much "cleaner" product, etc.

I refer to refinery products in this discussion, because all of the materials listed by the OP in the MSDS ultimately come from these refinery steams. There are multiple names for exactly the same refinery streams. Yes, certain diesels, kerosines, jet fuels, etc. are virtually the same stuff or extremely similar stuff. However, they do vary somewhat, even if similar.

Naphtha is typically a material of a boiling range some what like mineral spirits.

I think virtually none of the honing oils, and other materials, discussed in the post contain more than trace amounts of sulfur bearing compounds. Those were done away with by the reformulating of fuels many years ago. Removing the sulur is now one of the first steps in the refining process in virtually every refinery in the US. This was done to remove sulfur dioxide from exhaust, this due to environmental laws.

"FDA" mineral oil means that the mineral oil meets even more stringent standards for such things as toxicity, etc. The 2,6-di-t-butylphenol, is an anti-oxidant. It is almost certainly in the better stuff to stop oxygen from reacting with the hydrocarbon compounds, as oxygen can add across what are called tertiary carbon/hydrogen bonds in the material, and those compounds and the break down products from them, cause the material to have a strong odor. They are not present to prevent rust formation.

Thus, the stuff listed as "highly refined, or hydrotreated" is good stuff. In my view these are more desirable from some view points. They should be lower odor and less toxic. They are also less likely to form gums, etc. They are also more expensive ingredients in the honing oils than the same type of material that has not been "highly refined" or "hydrotreated." The FDA type of mineral oil will this type of material, or probably even better.

There is more than one way to make the oil with the correct viscosity, density, etc. One way is to thin thicker material with less viscose material. The problem with this approach,which is likely the way almost all of it is made, is that the lower boiling material can eventually evaporate out of the product leaving a product that is too thick. A better way is to distill the material to get a boiling fraction that has exactly the right properties. The advantage of this approach is that the viscosity will not change with time, because material that evaporates out will be extremely similar to what remains so that the properties will not change. This, however, will be a very expensive approach because having the needed distillation equipment is a very expensive proposition. The distillation itself can also be expensive. Somewhat of a compromise can be made by trying to find feedstocks that are as close as possible to the ideal. Thus the solvent used to thin the thick stuff will have a minimum of the most volatile compounds.

It has been pointed out that the terms "mineral spirits" and "mineral oil" are somewhat generic, and the meanings vary from company to company and product to product. This is because a refinery supplying feedstock to another company to use in making the honing oil is not going to design specific equipment for one tiny product. The equipment and distillations vary from refinery to refinery, so "mineral spirits" made from a feedstock from one refinery is very like to vary from the "mineral spirits" made from feedstocks from a different refinery.

The fact is that the honing oil folks do not buy the feedstocks they use for honing oils from refineries however, they are far too tiny in volume for a refinery to mess with. They buy the materials from specialty chemical companies that further distill and/or treat feedstocks that they in turn have purchased from refineries, or they more likely buy the feedstocks from jobbers that have in turn bought the materials from the specialty chemical company. These sources often deal with the small volumes that such folks need.

I have no comments on the water based stuff.

I am sure this ramble is somewhat confusing and pretty long so my apology for that.

That said I have done my best to explain some of the terms mean. If you want to risk it, I will be glad to answer any questions that you might want to know about, to the best of my ability.

Regards,

Stew

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks for this, Stew. I had hinted at some of these things, but your explanations are much more thorough.

I had also hinted at some practical considerations. For example gumming up may or may not be a problem depending on frequency of use. A guy who is adding fresh oil to his stones ten times a day has no worries about the oil thickening. A fellow who sharpens his knife every few months or only during hunting season will want a more expensive oil that will not gum up.

From experience, volatile components in the oil are not a problem for someone working five hours a week, but they cause irritation and concerns for someone who is constantly sharpening for 40 hours a week. Odorless spirits are probably less trouble, but still not something you want to be breathing with any regularity.

[Charles Guest]

I use neatsfoot oil, but mineral oil sold as a laxative at the drug-store is next best.

[Rafael Herrera]

Stew, thank you for your explanation, it's very good, I have now a better understanding about oils and spirits. I'll stick with mineral oil marketed as food grade and continue to experiment with neatsfoot oil (I did notice a smell). I'm definitely not inclined to try the different honing oils as it seems to me it's just overpriced mineral oil. Rafael

[Kevin Adams]

Charles, is there a particular brand you prefer?

Thanks.
Kevin

[Warren Mickley]

Stew, thank you for your explanation, it's very good, I have now a better understanding about oils and spirits. I'll stick with mineral oil marketed as food grade and continue to experiment with neatsfoot oil (I did notice a smell). I'm definitely not inclined to try the different honing oils as it seems to me it's just overpriced mineral oil. Rafael

This is weird. Stew wrote twenty paragraphs about why honing oil would be more expensive than run of the mill mineral oil, and Rafael writes "honing oil ... it's just overpriced mineral oil"

[Rafael Herrera]

Warren, I wrote that because that is what seems to be the main ingredient of some honing oils. I looked quickly at some prices and that makes some products well over US$100 per gallon, that's pretty absurd to buy when one can use mineral oil (or presumably neatsfoot oil). This also reminds me of the time I bought a brush cleaning fluid that turned out to be mineral spirits, but just branded differently and sold at a higher price. I became skeptical of generic products branded and marketed aa being somewhat special by a manufacturer. Rafael

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, I wrote that because that is what seems to be the main ingredient of some honing oils. I looked quickly at some prices and that makes some products well over US$100 per gallon, that's pretty absurd to buy when one can use mineral oil (or presumably neatsfoot oil). This also reminds me of the time I bought a brush cleaning fluid that turned out to be mineral spirits, but just branded differently and sold at a higher price. I became skeptical of generic products branded and marketed aa being somewhat special by a manufacturer. Rafael

You are missing the whole point, Rafael. They don't just use crappy mineral oil in honing oils. They use a more highly refined oil, which explains the price differential. Is this over your head?

I buy clock oil for my brass movement clocks. It costs $4 or $5 an ounce. I used 3-in-one oil when I was a boy, which is all right in the short term, but likely to thicken over time. Clock oil does not have to be food safe; it has to have molecular weight in a tight range, not just a mixture with the right viscosity.

[Charles Guest]

Charles, is there a particular brand you prefer?

Thanks.
Kevin

Just the drugstore's generic brand.

[mike stenson]

You are missing the whole point, Rafael. They don't just use crappy mineral oil in honing oils. They use a more highly refined oil, which explains the price differential. Is this over your head?


Now for the real question: Does it matter? Enough to be 100x the cost?

I honestly have never seen anything to suggest that it does, so I just use what is on-hand.

[Kevin Adams]

Thanks, Charles, I see some at our local Tractor Supply store. I’ve been using Norton’s and will try Neatsfoot oil.

Kevin

[Charles Guest]

Thanks, Charles, I see some at our local Tractor Supply store. I’ve been using Norton’s and will try Neatsfoot oil.

Kevin

I'm sorry I thought you were asking about mineral oil.

Fiebing's is the brand of neatsfoot oil in my shop at the moment.

[Kevin Adams]

Well thanks again as that is the one I see at the local store. And it’s half the price of Amazon!

[steven c newman]

Just used the 3in1 oil last night.....and it wasn't just for the stones....having derusted all of the threaded parts on a handplane I picked up...to make sure the parts will stay rust free...had the iron to work over..
426477
Nicks needed ground out, back needed a better flattening....2 oil stone, then wet-or-dry up to 2000 grit, then the strop....oil on the stones, and the paper, none on the strop...
426478
And...
426479
Still one tiny nick left, will get that at the next sharpening....Plane is a Millers Falls No. 15, Type 3....
426480
Makes the jack plane set complete.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I might give it a try since I have some. I am slowly working through all of my existing honing solutions to see how they work. My recent tests where comparing Gacko to Smith's on Diamond stones.

[Warren Mickley]

Now for the real question: Does it matter? Enough to be 100x the cost?

I honestly have never seen anything to suggest that it does, so I just use what is on-hand.

Over the last 59 years I have used motor oil, kerosene, oil and kerosene mixed, olive oil, mineral oil, Fiebings neatsfoot oil, baby oil, thread cutting oil (dark and light), lather, 3-in-one oil, Smith's honing oil, and Norton's honing oil. They all work. What is the best? Honing oil, not such a surprise.

Traditional oils are olive oil, used since ancient times, and sperm oil.

Norton's oil is $17 a quart. Some guys are constantly changing stones, which is much more expensive.

[Steve Voigt]

Over the last 59 years I have used motor oil, kerosene, oil and kerosene mixed, olive oil, mineral oil, Fiebings neatsfoot oil, baby oil, thread cutting oil (dark and light), lather, 3-in-one oil, Smith's honing oil, and Norton's honing oil. They all work. What is the best? Honing oil, not such a surprise.

Traditional oils are olive oil, used since ancient times, and sperm oil.

Norton's oil is $17 a quart. Some guys are constantly changing stones, which is much more expensive.


I use the Norton oil also, Warren. Yes, it is more expensive. No, I don't care. I spend a lot of hours in the shop, most of it hand work, and I don't remember when I bought the last quart. Probably close to 2 years ago, and I need to order more soon. So…8 or 9 bucks a year? Doesn't seem much of a price to pay for something that is easy to obtain and clearly delivers better results.
Moreover, it is disturbing to see the lengths people will go to to save a couple bucks. Kerosene is terrible for you and flammable as hell. I assume diesel oil or whatever is the same. WD-40 is too thin and also carries risks from long term exposure. The laxative mineral oil is garbage; it is way too thick, especially on a fine stone. I was sorry to see a recommendation for that and feel bad for anyone who wasted their money. Oh well, I guess you can use it if you're feeling a bit stopped up. :p
Priorities, people. Look at the big picture.

[Stewie Simpson]

I use the Norton oil also, Warren. Yes, it is more expensive. No, I don't care. I spend a lot of hours in the shop, most of it hand work, and I don't remember when I bought the last quart. Probably close to 2 years ago, and I need to order more soon. So…8 or 9 bucks a year? Doesn't seem much of a price to pay for something that is easy to obtain and clearly delivers better results.
Moreover, it is disturbing to see the lengths people will go to to save a couple bucks. Kerosene is terrible for you and flammable as hell. I assume diesel oil or whatever is the same. WD-40 is too thin and also carries risks from long term exposure. The laxative mineral oil is garbage; it is way too thick, especially on a fine stone. I was sorry to see a recommendation for that and feel bad for anyone who wasted their money. Oh well, I guess you can use it if you're feeling a bit stopped up. :p
Priorities, people. Look at the big picture.

Steve; for a lousy $6 bucks a year you could also stop being a freeloader on this forum site. :p

regards Stewie;

[Steve Voigt]

Steve; for a lousy $6 bucks a year you could also stop being a freeloader on this forum site. :p

regards Stewie;


Haha, good one Stewie. But I'm saving the 6 bucks to buy you a grammar manual so you can stop serially abusing semicolons. ;)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Wow did I learn a lot from this thread.

I wanted to understand the difference and I assumed that the msds would show that some product were essential all mineral oil with kerosene; I believe that to be false.

I have heard that I can buy a gallon of mineral oil for like $20 and it will last me a lifetime. Well, if a gallon is more than a lifetime supply, I can buy a gallon of Dan's for under $90 and I can afford that fire a lifetime of sharpening. My point is that I want to know what will work best for me in how it works. If cost was my only consideration, nothing beats water... Unless it has other properties that make it less desirable; for example, costs me more time reconditioning a stone or similar.

Also, knowing other things I can used in a pinch is very useful.

I cannot express my thanks enough for all I learned.

Special call out to Stew Denton here.

Andrew Pitonyak.

[Tom M King]

I used bacon grease once, in a pinch, and it worked better than you might think it would have.

It's kind of a funny story, but too long to type out here, in detail. A knife salesman came by the house I was staying at when I was young, and had not had the first stones long. I couldn't resist showing him what sharp really was, so sharpened one of my friends old kitchen knives to compare to the ones he was selling. I think that was 1974.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

That is awesome...

I had a knife salesman giving me a pitch. Part of the pitch was to see if you had a knife that could cut a tough piece of rope. Their knife (that they used) had some small serrations so I knew exactly what was going on. I had a knife with a serrated section that easily cut the rope.

[steven c newman]

Well..if you ever decide to start making cutting boards....you can soak them in the mineral oil....as a finish.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Well..if you ever decide to start making cutting boards....you can soak them in the mineral oil....as a finish.

Lord knows I have enough of it :-)

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Haha, good one Stewie. But I'm saving the 6 bucks to buy you a grammar manual so you can stop serially abusing semicolons. ;)

I laughed out loud reading this one. Yes, I am one of those people.

Your 6 bucks would be wasted on a grammar manual: I’d suggest a punctuation manual instead. ;)

[Tom M King]

That is awesome...

I had a knife salesman giving me a pitch. Part of the pitch was to see if you had a knife that could cut a tough piece of rope. Their knife (that they used) had some small serrations so I knew exactly what was going on. I had a knife with a serrated section that easily cut the rope.

That was exactly the presentation that this guy gave. He was using a serrated knife, and wanted to compare it to a straight bladed knife that my host had. I asked him to wait until I sharpened the old butcher knife. I had the stones in my van (was living out of it at the time), but couldn't find any oil. I used bacon grease from my friend's kitchen. The butcher knife sliced the rope in one smooth cut. The salesman said, "It must have been the bacon grease", but didn't make a sale at that house.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I laughed out loud reading this one. Yes, I am one of those people.

Your 6 bucks would be wasted on a grammar manual: I’d suggest a punctuation manual instead. ;)

First, be kind. Everyone here has always been so to me....

That said, you guys are cracking me up a little bit and it makes think of something that my 14 year old daughter said to me yesterday in response to people calling a spider poisonous.

That spider is poisonous if you eat it and die. That spider is venomous if it bites you and you die.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

First, be kind. Everyone here has always been so to me....

That said, you guys are cracking me up a little bit and it makes think of something that my 14 year old daughter said to me yesterday in response to people calling a spider poisonous.

That spider is poisonous if you eat it and die. That spider is venomous if it bites you and you die.

I took the comment string as good-natured ribbing and my reply was intended as a continuation thereof. I apologize if it seemed otherwise.

That said, I like your daughter’s sense of humor. If she says it again, you could point out that the venom sac is likely poisonous, so they’re probably not wrong calling it a poisonous spider. . .

[Mel Fulks]

Andrew, please tell her she is already making the world better. I'm picky about using the right word , but pretty
sure I have not been using those two words correctly. Gonna remember the difference.