1982 Martin T-23

[Patrick Walsh]

And so it seems it begins again. The T-75 isn’t even technically done and I have a new project.

I’m not gonna go all buggy on this one “just yet” if ever. I will 100% go all the way through the machine and make sure it is 100% fully functional to the 9’s. 10’ for me if it was a term. If anything I’m gonna do like car restorations are done. I’ll tear down and repair everything that needs attention and out the machine back together fully operational. At such point I’ll either leave it and use the dickens out of it or I’ll tear it “all the way down” and begin the madness. My guess is the former as this machine is coming home right away and I don’t see myself stripping the castings and or spraying paint in my shop never mind autobody paint.

Long term I have to move as I “want not need” a full size real deal shop. For now due to work and life I’m stuck right where I am. I’m sure not gonna let that stop me from doing what I enjoy.

I’m making the thread for two reasons and may duplicate and or move the thread over to OWW long term.

Reason number one is I get help here, second reason is people seem to enjoy the topic, ok a third and fourth. I find other like threads very helpful when I dive off the deep end into these project. Ok what was the fourth or was it the third. I don’t know.

How about some Sunday morning machine porn.

[Patrick Walsh]

So I’ll be sharing pictures of another mans shop. I’m not sure if that’s socially acceptable politically correct or my place. There will be no mention of who’s shop where or any of that so please don’t ask. If the owner/seller want to chime in so be it.

Let’s just say I took a very long drive yesterday. I joke about moving to Canada and honestly at this point and if the guard does not change next election cycle I just may actually do it if they will have me. I’m not kidding I’m as passionate about this topic as I am my Martin machines. I pretty much was in Canada yesterday, if I had stopped to take a leek and I do so on one side of the street I would had got arrested in Canada vrs the unites states.

Oh yeah the best part was I planned to rent a trailer at a local U-haul to drag the machine home. When I got to the counter I was informed I was driving with a expired license. That’s right I had driven seven hours with no license and I was seven hours from home and in need of a way to get a 2-3K lb machine home.

I serious gem I even got to hear it run. Thing is as quiet at a new 24” Scmi. I totally was not expecting that. From what I was told this machine cuts with zero snipe and leave a perfect finished board. I would never look at a machine like this and expect a finish planer quality board. I would had though a machine like this would give you a saw mill skip planed product. You learn something new everyday.

426026

426027

[Patrick Walsh]

Moving on..

And I didn’t even come close to getting pictures of everything. I was a bit overwhelmed honestly kinda or totally in machine nerd sensory overload shock. Plus I was thinking the whole time oh boy how did I drive all the way here on a expired license and how am I gonna get home. This machine is covered in this thick wax and I can’t check the tables for flat, the arbor for runout or put the dam thing under power. So I’m taking a $3750 risk and if anything major is wrong enough to warrant the machine a lead weight I’m gonna have to got to whatever length to fix it. The result could mean I end up $10k into this machine before I’m done.

The machine has oil bath bearings. From what I understand Martin did sell and might still stock a greased bearing conversion. The issue with the oil bath system is the if the oil pump goes you can’t get one. I would suspect if I was motivated enough the pump could be replaced with something non factory and or rebuilt or remade. None of the above bringing any piece of mind nor excitement. But you know it is what it is. No offense to anyone but I’m done with Felder Minimax crap. My experience has been thus so far. Buy new or used high end hobby machines felder/Scm/minimax and maybe just maybe you get lucky and have no issues. That had not been my experience thus far. Your gonna pay way more money for new high end hobby equipment than vintage industrial machinery. Both ,ay or may not need work to get to work. At this point I see both as a roll of the dice as even when buying new manufactures take zero responsibility and pass the buck to the consumer. Hold them to the fire and your in for a long drawn out battle that results in nothing more than fine return the machine at your expense with at minimum a 20% restocking fee. And that will be after like six moths of arguing and threats.

So for me this is waaaaaay better. At least entering into this I have very low expectations and don’t end up furious when I spend top dollar for a brand new machine and am told to kick rocks when it operates like machine pulled out of scrap heap.

Ok back to porno baby!

426028

426029

The seller had a fair amount of northfeild gear all pretty much new and or unused or used for largely hobby much like my home shop.

He had extended table cabinet saw that I didn’t get pictures of that was huge, just huge and purred like kitty cat when you forced it up. I can’t believe I didn’t get pictures. He has a single head shaper and a massive double head spindle shaper. That thing was hug like huge huge huge. Probably 8x5’ and for sale to boot. I’d love to buy it just to look at but that’s just stupid so I won’t. He also had a 16-20” joiner that will poke a corner of its head out in a picture. I’m not a huge fan of northfeild to date but was pretty impressed. The machines are far and away nicer than anything other than Martin, Kolle, Wadkin, Burrell and or the like. But still the castings or tables although machined beautifully not as thick and beefy as I like my Martins.

None the less very very nice machines that put most anything else to shame. I’m still a relentless Martin fan even after a real life encounter.

[Patrick Walsh]

426031

426032

426033

426034

Then there were these two sweet sweet gems. You got it two pre 80’s Martin T-23 tenon table shapers. One does not have the table installed but it was there. He actually had a spare outrigger support rail. He would not part with either machine and was selling me a third non tenon table t-23 of a q982 vintage :(

Whatever someday I’ll get my pre 80’s t-23 tenon table. I want pre 80’s as the trunnion is a wee different. Sad part Is one of these two tennon table machines was built in 1977. I was born in 1977, it’s gonna kill me thinking thinking them for a long long time.

He even had a original tenon hood.

426035

[Patrick Walsh]

Beyond all that this gentleman had two of everything any old iron freek could want. If not two three. It was the result of what I’m told has been 20 years collecting.

Oliver lathes, Lablonde Metal lathe, wysong mortiser, Martin T-17 a like 20’ Wysong edge sander I think. Various northfeild, delta bits and pieces and all the ones your search for not the ones in abundance, a couple Kindt spindle sander, a Kindt Master 24” you get the drift all the good stuff.

All loaded up and ready for the hail marry ride home sans license.

I moved my giant snap on box home from my previous job a couple months ago. Somehow it cut loose mid trip and went flying criss my brand new nearly $70k van resulting in a pretty good dent mostly in the interior of the sliding door. Bing as such I was kinda reluctant to strap anything down in the van again that could cut loose. Pretty stupid as I purchased the vehicle with the intention of machinery acquisitions. But after the snap on box I decided I felt better dragging a trailer. Well here we are.

426038

426039

[Jim Becker]

I'm sure you'll have that thang "singing the song of its people" in a very nice way once you do your restoration and fine tuning! Don't worry about the paint...it's something you can deal with later when you have the right conditions for taking care of it. In the mean time...that's a serious piece of machinery to enjoy!

[Patrick Walsh]

Now I gotta figure out how I’m getting the dam thing out. I either roll the dice and push it out onto my new 3K lb hydrollic lift table. Or I drive to my uncles shop and have him lift it out with the fork truck then go rent a trailer and drag it home as planned. I still have no valid license being Sunday so I’m inclined to try and wrestle it out as I’m not keen on that amount of wight sitting in my brand new van any longer than need be. On the other hand if I bring it to my uncles shop I can tear into it over the next couple weeks and get the bulk of the functional restoration work done. I also have to take the table top off to get the machine through my shop door and using a fork truck for that will be much more easy than my current plan.

Hmm, I can be very very patient but I also am a instant gratification kinda guy also. I want the thing in my dam shop but the better answer is take the long road.

The t75 proves such.

426040

The best part is the wrench has my dogs name engraved in it. Up my dogs name is Tank. I have no idea of Tank top referees to the type of wrench of its use or something else of significance. Regardless it seemed meant to be when the seller cam running out of his shop telling me to not forget the wrenches.

Ok so now the real questions can begin. First on the list is the repair of a cracked aluminum casting to dust chute of the fence.then a couple covers/vents on the side of the machine made of plastic. Can you believe it Martin used plastic. It must had been the 80’s, cocaine plastic and seem to be the stamp the 80’s left on history.

To boot I destroyed a re aggravated a rotator cuff injury at work last week wrestling giant boards on and off a week little toy of a jointer. Getting old sucks and I’m not even old. I just use the crap out of my body and always have.

[Jim Becker]

As impatient as I might also be to get this unloaded and into the shop...I think I'd choose the Uncle's shop option because of its advantages to the overall restoration project. Oh, and yea...forklift. :)

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah but that means it sits in the back of my van in the driveway till Tuesday night as I have no way to get the dam thing to his shop without asking him to give away his Sunday.

I’m pretty sure the van will live but you know I have destroyed the suspension of a couple vehicles now pushing them to far. But you know they never cost $67k


As impatient as I might also be to get this unloaded and into the shop...I think I'd choose the Uncle's shop option because of its advantages to the overall restoration project. Oh, and yea...forklift. :)

[David Kumm]

Patrick, were all machines wired 220 or do you need a 600v transformer? Dave who would like a tenoning table for a T21.

[Ron Selzer]

Yeah but that means it sits in the back of my van in the driveway till Tuesday night as I have no way to get the dam thing to his shop without asking him to give away his Sunday.

I’m pretty sure the van will live but you know I have destroyed the suspension of a couple vehicles now pushing them to far. But you know they never cost $67k


put a jack under the trailer hitch and raise the back end up some, old farmers trick I learned way too many years ago.
I want that aircraft deck jointer in my basement bad, just need the money to buy it and the new outside entrance to the basement dug and installed. Then the crane can drop it in the basement entry way from the street
good luck
Ron

[Patrick Walsh]

220,

The machine actually came from a auction in New Jersey. I think rent is cheap up where I got it for shop space.

What’s your comment to Dave.

Are you speaking of yourself in the third person. I have been trying to buy a tenon table Martin from overseas from the various emails I get from online retailers or online conglomerate dealers or whoever they are. Nobody ever gets back to me. I’m totally considering a trip to Germany when my dog dies to get at the least the a machine with a tenon table.

I’m not kidding either. You watch I’ll do it. But I’m never leaving my dog while I go on vacation. I have not been on one in eleven years.

And at this point I am fully committed to a t23 tenon table. I have been in front of the gamete now of Martin shaper from these 50-70’s machines to a couple year old top of the line and I can day without doubt I would prefer a 70’s t73 tenon table to any other Martin I could have.

In photo they kinda look wimpy but in person they are so substantial and quite massive in comparison to anything but a brand new cnc Martin. Then even those are just bigger in mass not heft. I guess they have the heft but it’s concrete not metal and I prefer the metal.



Patrick, were all machines wired 220 or do you need a 600v transformer? Dave who would like a tenoning table for a T21.

[Patrick Walsh]

I actually had my first jointer/combo machine lifted over my house with a crane as I was to insecure at the time to think I could move it. I know better now but at the time it was probably a smart decision. That machine weighed 1800 lbs and was maybe 30x86. I’ll move my Martin jointer in 128x36” probably by myself something this next year.

You live your learn but hopefully not the hard way.

Great suggestion on the jack im gonna run out and do it like right now. Thank you, sometimes the most simple things.


put a jack under the trailer hitch and raise the back end up some, old farmers trick I learned way too many years ago.
I want that aircraft deck jointer in my basement bad, just need the money to buy it and the new outside entrance to the basement dug and installed. Then the crane can drop it in the basement entry way from the street
good luck
Ron

[David Kumm]

Yes, Patrick, bring home two tenoning tables as I would like one. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Good luck with Germany, or Europe in general.

I could write a lengthy post on why buying parts from a Euro manufacturer is almost impossible.

It took over 2 months to come to a dead end with Martin on part availability, ok I could sort of get some parts, but didn't know exactly what they were or if they would fit.

I have been waiting 4 weeks for another company to have a meeting to see how much they want for a part that is way obsolete and they didn't know they had.

Buying parts in person in Europe is almost no better, the only better part is an actual person says you can't have it. Lol.

[Darcy Warner]

Also, that is one reason people are buying the high end grizzly stuff, they will send you whatever part you want, because they like money.

Basically the Eruo manufacturers almost have a sort of organized crime ring going on with parts and service.

I repaired a 2007 43" 2 head Buttfering sander recently. The dealer that sold it to them used can't/won't service. Only dealer that is an authorized service center as well, wanted 1850 just to show up to take a look at it, plus 250/hr.

I had it figured out, parts ordered, and machine checked over in about 10 hours including drive there.

[Patrick Walsh]

I know you do. If I do and or can I would be more than happy to bring you one.

Pipe dream but you know I have a way of always gettting what I want even when the price is very very high. And I’m not always talking money. So long as the compromise of my moral integrity remain in tact and I want it there is normally no stopping me when I get my mind on something. Actually it’s normally that I’ll just bust my ass and or go to lengths others won’t like say drive to Wyoming or something nuts out and back in one fell swoop.

I used to drive to Tucson arizona once a year all in one shot no sleep no stops, just freaking got.

I got pulled over in New Mexico once in the middle of knowheresville doing 119 miles and hour. The cop actually let me go and somehow I never actually paid that ticket. I think I’d best never drive in New Mexico again. This was like 12 years ago at least.



Yes, Patrick, bring home two tenoning tables as I would like one. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

All the above is a real shame but nothing I have not heard before in some manner.

I have never heard grizzly makes high end anything however but I don’t know so I’ll leave it at that with my grizzly attitude.

This all is why I’m pretty smitten by heavy duty vintage machines built simple but like tanks. If something does break and your really committed to getting it up and running you can fix it. And if you can’t someone else can if your pockets are deep enough.


Also, that is one reason people are buying the high end grizzly stuff, they will send you whatever part you want, because they like money.

Basically the Eruo manufacturers almost have a sort of organized crime ring going on with parts and service.

I repaired a 2007 43" 2 head Buttfering sander recently. The dealer that sold it to them used can't/won't service. Only dealer that is an authorized service center as well, wanted 1850 just to show up to take a look at it, plus 250/hr.

I had it figured out, parts ordered, and machine checked over in about 10 hours including drive there.

[Patrick Walsh]

Made the decision mostly per Jim’s advice lol.

All kidding aside..

To leave the machine in the van and bring it to my uncles shop clean it up then trailer it home.

Funniest part is my door has to be taken completely out jamb and PT that’s lagged to the foundation to carry it. I kinda knew but figured just taking the table off would do. No dice so away we go. It’s ok I was gonna cut the foundation long term “maybe this year” put in a reinforced header and then a double door. So who knows maybe now I gotta do that way sooner than I thought also. The freaking onion peel know as my life addicted to huge machines in a week munchkin shop fit for a pack of elves.

So I couldn’t restrain any longer. I started by pulling a few bits off the machine I knew need repairs regardless of restoration or not that have no need to make there way to my uncles shop.

426072

426073

426074

[Darcy Warner]

High end for grizzly, lol. Their top tier stuff.

[Patrick Walsh]

I was kinda thinking that but you know, you never know and I didn’t want to say something to question you as. This maybe insult you.


High end for grizzly, lol. Their top tier stuff.

[Patrick Walsh]

I couldn’t just leave the machine sitting in my van all dam day and do nothing. This stuff is like crack to me.

So after a relaxing morning with the dog and family I found myself in the back of my van going completely buggy with a vacuum and some simple green. To my surprise “honestly my first impression of the machine was it’s kinda a dog” it’s defiantly been a workhorse as it is intended to as it has the sighs you would expect of a machine made in 1982 meant to make money would have.

Anyway under all the dust and dirt and grime I found a machine in such nice condition I honestly feel zero need to restore it. And that’s not just because I’m being lazy but because it really is in good condition. It has a few scars. The same crack in the fence dust port JOe Calhoons t23 had. The louvered Side and back vent are plastic unlike the earlier machines metal ones and they are pretty much trash. And the cast table does had a maze of dings all over it all be them minor and typical of a old machine that actually got used.

I did not clean the cast table as it’s covered I some spray on wax coating I forget the name and I wasn’t going to stink out my van anymore than a old machine already does. But I did give the machine. A good old Italian bath, take no offense people I’m Irish Italian. As I was cleaning I cloud hear my Nanas voice saying “patrick don’t forget to clean behind your ears” in the thickest of Boston accents. In all seriousness I really gut up underneath this old Betty and got very familur with her in dear workings.

Typical Martin, built like a tank, simple as simple gets design and still attention payed to a aesthetically pleasing design. I was a bit disappointed in the trunnion on this machine vrs that of the t23’s just a few years older. But you know that’s probably just because that giant trunnion is like my favorite part of these old martins. It’s not that this one is wimpy or bad it’s just not as big as my arm.

So here ]s what I came up with.

426077

All up in there, isn’t she sexy I like her stature...

426078

The return spring for the trunnion is also different but similar to my t75 and earlier t23 machines like joes. None the less still very well done.

426079


The electrical box is like new inside.

It’s even got the key and the original locks intact. It’s been my experience that on machines much newer these locks are often trashed by someone whom lost the key.

426080

And I even have that little lightning bolt sticker I had once upon a time on the control panel of my t75 but trashed to repaint it. Now I can take this someplace nd have them make me a few.

[Patrick Walsh]

The hand wheel side is also in exceptional condition considering the machines age.

426081

To my surprise that black handwheel on the never machines is painted and not anodized. I fully expected from online pictures it would be anodized. Again it’s in good enough condition I don’t feel the need to do a dam thing to it. The scale that I’m paying dearly to reproduce for the t75 and have had to fight tooth and nail to even find someone capable and willing is in actual perfect condition on this machine.

426082

[Darcy Warner]

Cleaned up very nice. That is a well kept, honest machine that has made its owners money.

[Patrick Walsh]

Then I employed the suggestion above to use a car jack to remove some strain from my precious van. It’s a tool to but no need to brute.

426083

Then I went inside and did what I love to do. Clean, I love to clean, got it from mom. She was a relentless ocd neat freak control freak as a child. I thank her now as it’s probably part of what made me so particular to details. Without this trait as a woodworker I’d be up poops creek with nothing different to offer than you run of the mill carpenter.

As a tradesman of sorts in a sea of tradesman I can’t imagine being of any less value than I already am. If I were to be I’d be asking “would you like fries or a coke with that” so bless my others dear heart for having such high expectations.

The fence as I received. Covered in the usual shop air sealing tape, cracks in the aluminum dust port to repair. I’m trying and or paying special care in cleaning this piece to only make it look well cared for but mostly functional and bring it to a level that under my ownership it will never again be left to fall into disrepair like it had been.

426085

The side panel covers as mentioned are badly damaged and plastic vrs earlier machines aluminum or stainless ones. I’m not sure witch but it’s one and I can find out from the seller as he has two. I fully intend to remake or have someone remake these covers. And no anything but one of the two solutions to Martin is acceptable to me. It’s either do it right as in original or not at all. I much prefer the older metal ones but feel obligated to a extent to reproduce ones as original to the machine. Doing so is going to require I find a plastic fabricator and I suspect pay through the nose for the work.

I thought maybe a 3D printer could work. I also thought solid stock, some kind of plastic composite on a cnc machine. So if anyone is listening and has a idea suitable to my standards chime in as I’m open to suggestions so long as they are not just cut up some MDF as that’s not what I do.

426087

426088

I like that this material is solid color all the way throught. I’d like to find the same material or something simular and maybe less brittle.

Then the fence.

426089

Clean functional.

426090

And the crack that must be addressed. I’m open to suggestions on this also. I have heard squeaking about not braising or welding this as the heat could warp it. In this area I don’t know what I don’t know. I’m ok with JB weld provided it will do the trick forever. I am not however open to a lesser solution when there is a better solution “more care quality” some might call overkill. Regardless the repair is kinda gonna make me want to re paint the fence. Then the slippery slope begins and a potential full restoration. I bet I could faux finish i the repair in some way or just leave it as another sigh of its age and intended use.

Next is get it out of the van,

Get the crap off the table, angle grinder wire wheel scotch brite to the table top, spindle spindle nuts and spacers. Get up under her with some compressed air. Then a fine tooth comb with simple green. Check every nut and bolt for tightness and make sure nothing is missing or broke. Replace anything that is, grease and oil anything that requires so much and drag her back home. I bet I can do that in a long evening after work. I hope to have this done no later than Wednesday as this weekend I travel to NJ to put the finishing touches on the outrigger support arm for the t75.

Martin Martin Martin as in Marsha, Marsha, Marsha...

[Patrick Walsh]

I’d say so as even from a auction it came with all its original manuals.

426091
Cleaned up very nice. That is a well kept, honest machine that has made its owners money.

[Darcy Warner]

Yup, nothing better than a well loved machine.

[Patrick Walsh]

That’s the thinking Jim.

With a powerfeeder aigner fences “not needed” it’s still a huge expenditure for me. I at least feel good knowing it’s a forever machine so cry once and for half the price of a new machine that would not be a forever machine that I would never be happy with.

So for now time is money and my time is better spent making money to finish the practical functional end of this. Plus spring is on the way and I have a house that need a paint job. Two sides of the yard excavated, re graded two stair cases and walkway. For a cabinet maker that’s pretty much all I got so it’s time to say uncle. Oh plus I’m hopeful I’ll be dragging a Oliver 20C lathe home in the next few weeks also. The. I gotta setup the phase converter. I got no time for or means for paint. I’ll pick away at the lathe as time allows as I don’t need it running and honestly it’s easy restoration. This shaper looks to me to be a very easy restoration to but probably only because I may have taken on the hardest restoration one could for my first rodeo. Ok it’s not a superfurfacer, a tennoner, edge banger four sided planer but for this type of resto it was no small task.


I'm sure you'll have that thang "singing the song of its people" in a very nice way once you do your restoration and fine tuning! Don't worry about the paint...it's something you can deal with later when you have the right conditions for taking care of it. In the mean time...that's a serious piece of machinery to enjoy!

[Jim Becker]

Wow...cleaned up that's in really nice "finish" condition considering, as you noted, it was a "user". You should be able to get that thang up and running a lot faster than the saw that you totally rebuilt.

[Dan Friedrichs]

426085

The side panel covers as mentioned are badly damaged and plastic vrs earlier machines aluminum or stainless ones. I’m not sure witch but it’s one and I can find out from the seller as he has two. I fully intend to remake or have someone remake these covers. And no anything but one of the two solutions to Martin is acceptable to me. It’s either do it right as in original or not at all. I much prefer the older metal ones but feel obligated to a extent to reproduce ones as original to the machine. Doing so is going to require I find a plastic fabricator and I suspect pay through the nose for the work.

I thought maybe a 3D printer could work. I also thought solid stock, some kind of plastic composite on a cnc machine. So if anyone is listening and has a idea suitable to my standards chime in as I’m open to suggestions so long as they are not just cut up some MDF as that’s not what I do.

426088

I like that this material is solid color all the way throught. I’d like to find the same material or something simular and maybe less brittle.

Not sure how good of suggestion this is, but if you can get at least one of the originals in decent shape (ie - held together with CA glue, if necessary), it may be possible for you to use it as a master to create a rubber mold and cast your own replacement using a material like Alumilite (https://www.alumilite.com/). This is surprisingly easy to do and not terribly expensive.

[Patrick Walsh]

Dan,

I was not aware of the product.

I idea of fixing one with say fiberglass and resin from the inside did cross my kind then make a mold. What to make th mold out of I was unsure but figured I could figure it out. The hiccup was how the hell do I liquify plastic to pour the form.

I think this would be the best approach as if I could color match with a product green through and through it would be a exact reproduction and for whatever reason that’s very important to me.

It’s not so easy to find these machines and someday they will be gone for the most part. I know I’m not gonna change that by restoring and or having one or two of everyone of them. The reality is I have no wife no kids and someone is gonna pay somebody to drag my machines out of my house when I die and that person is gonna scrap them or sell them to some schmuck that will destroy them.

But regardless it important to be to reserve them.

I never I intended to get the old/vintage machinery bug. I actually was smitten by the electronic brand new everything machines when I first got into fine Woodworking. It was only through owning those machines that I fell completely out of love and into love with old machines.

Now my love of these old machines is as strong as my love of Woodworking. Plus I get paid to work wood all day so I need a outlet outside of that. I always need a place to realize don’t crap right, like right right all the way right not like we gotta pay the bills right.

So hopefully someone can lead me to water on reproducing these things authentically.


Not sure how good of suggestion this is, but if you can get at least one of the originals in decent shape (ie - held together with CA glue, if necessary), it may be possible for you to use it as a master to create a rubber mold and cast your own replacement using a material like Alumilite (https://www.alumilite.com/). This is surprisingly easy to do and not terribly expensive.

[Patrick Kane]

Nice acquisition! Enjoyed the extraneous photos as well. I always wondered about those huge 30-36” planers and the surface they put out. I would almost have to have a second planer, however. Seems wasteful to fire up 30hp of amps to plane an 8” board haha.

This came up in person a couple weeks ago and you and Darcy triggered my memory. Is there a place like OWWM for martin catalogues and price lists? Someone was asking me what the retail price of an 80s saw was, and I could not find old prices or catalogues to answer the question. Curious, what did the 23 cost back in the day?

[Patrick Walsh]

You know I’m not sure if there is, nobody has mentioned one to me.

I’m falling pretty hard for these old Martins and would love to acquire a fully equipped vintage Martin shop.

Just tonight I found a t51 and hope to hear back.

As for cost Joe Calhoon seems to often have a good idea about these things.

If I’m remembering correctly I think this t23 would had been like $9-10k in 1982.


Nice acquisition! Enjoyed the extraneous photos as well. I always wondered about those huge 30-36” planers and the surface they put out. I would almost have to have a second planer, however. Seems wasteful to fire up 30hp of amps to plane an 8” board haha.

This came up in person a couple weeks ago and you and Darcy triggered my memory. Is there a place like OWWM for martin catalogues and price lists? Someone was asking me what the retail price of an 80s saw was, and I could not find old prices or catalogues to answer the question. Curious, what did the 23 cost back in the day?

[Dan Friedrichs]

Dan,

I was not aware of the product.

I idea of fixing one with say fiberglass and resin from the inside did cross my kind then make a mold. What to make th mold out of I was unsure but figured I could figure it out. The hiccup was how the hell do I liquify plastic to pour the form.

I think this would be the best approach as if I could color match with a product green through and through it would be a exact reproduction and for whatever reason that’s very important to me.

They have a kit of dyes where you could mix the colors to get a match, if you were so inclined.

[Patrick Walsh]

Brian Halcomb made a good suggestion. Have someone with a cnc scan it and reproduce it.

Two issue for me with that but I’ll probably give into weakness.

I hate hate hate cnc makes for anything automated this automated that. I’m maker I’m blue color worker by birth and by choice. Ethically I’m not on board with machines taking over basic jobs that’s not nosed young kids are to good for because their parents could afford them a education and a shot at a “so called” better life.

Yes I have a chip as it’s personal. It Always has been even if someone willing to do my job for half the price. That little tid bit is mostly what motivated to become a fine woodworker as apposed to run of the mill.

I respect hand made, you can see feel and tell the difference. Sure machine made has its allure of reflection in its own way. I’m man enough to admit it. But I prefer the marks and signs of handmade and or primitive making techniques prior to cnc and automated everything.

I know the argument for advancements in technology, I’m fully aware and have a Brian enough to get your argument. I just don’t like it and will pretty much at all cost spend the rest of my life avoiding partaking.

But yeah I’ll go ask, see what the options are and the cost. If for nothing g else than to humor myself when I punish my sore carpal tunnel ridden hands, arthritic elbows and ruined rotator cuffs.

[Jim Becker]

Just remember that for those of us who do use CNC...it's just one tool and we still have to do all the finesse work on any parts a machine like that cuts. For me, it's the best of both worlds, but I respect that it's not for everyone. :) In this case, it may very well be a good way to reproduce a machine part that would be pretty difficult to do by hand if it's not available to buy new from the manufacturer. Brady Watson does some pretty amazing 3D scanning that supports that kind of thing. You may also get lucky and find a replacement part "out there" on a junker machine that's being parted out. Who knows?

[Patrick Walsh]

And please Jim no judgment passed as I’m a avid believer in each to his own. I don’t like being judged, backed into corners or stereotyped. Like it really don’t like it be it directed toward me or anyone else. So my opinion is what is good for me and not what I expect everyone else to adhere to. And come on we are talking about Woodworking ethics relating to cnc vrs antiquated methods. I get I loose this argument.

I’m fully aware of the tasks left behind for the maker after the cnc. I get the argument it does the mundane work allowing more time and focus on other more interesting work. I guess I just feel ripped off if you don’t have to take the bad with the good. I think anything worth having is worth ad requires a certain amount of suffering and sacrifice. I’m a natural born sufferer so much so I have come to enjoy it even when the cost high and it just plane old stinks. Life has been a uphill battle for me since birth, it’s built into my dna and built into my ethic.

But again cnc away i sat. And yeah I’m gonna try and find someone that can do this and see how much suffering it might save me vrs money and moral integrity lol..

Do you have contact info for mr Watson?



Just remember that for those of us who do use CNC...it's just one tool and we still have to do all the finesse work on any parts a machine like that cuts. For me, it's the best of both worlds, but I respect that it's not for everyone. :) In this case, it may very well be a good way to reproduce a machine part that would be pretty difficult to do by hand if it's not available to buy new from the manufacturer. Brady Watson does some pretty amazing 3D scanning that supports that kind of thing. You may also get lucky and find a replacement part "out there" on a junker machine that's being parted out. Who knows?

[Jim Becker]

Do you have contact info for mr Watson?
http://www.ibild.com/

[Patrick Walsh]

Thank you sir..


http://www.ibild.com/

[Jim Becker]

I've had the pleasure of working with Brady's output. He's a really good person to at lease consult with about the possibilities for that particular part you need to figure out a solution for.

[Patrick Walsh]

I took the day off to renew my license. So I have some free time on my hands. Just got off the phone with Bradly. Very nice guy and willing to help if even only to advise.

Thanks for intervening Jim, I’m actually on my way to Jersey this weekend to visit a mutual friend to finish work on a part for the t75. So who knows how this works out.


I've had the pleasure of working with Brady's output. He's a really good person to at lease consult with about the possibilities for that particular part you need to figure out a solution for.

[Jeff Monson]

Nice score Patrick! I'm taking that will replace my newly acquired Fz700 :) I will have to admit that I could see myself easily falling for these old iron machines so opening your threads I have to tell myself to be happy with what you have, just encourage the young man and move on. I have a nasty bad habit for restoring old motorcycles, nothing better than bringing a fresh look to a piece of iron that well deserves it.

[Patrick Walsh]

Well Jeff none of us can have it all and or do everything. I’m early 40’s no kids single with a dog I treat like a person and I find it hard to find the time and resources just for the Woodworking amp machine lust thing. Honestly there isn’t enough time when I factor in I do all my own home maintenance upgrades and repairs.

So I say as you have decided be happy with what you have or none of what you have will be fully realized. I also like other things. Namely I’d love a E30 BMW M3 and could easily get into vintage motorcycles but I know there is no point as I can’t afford everything and I surely don’t have the time.

Even this machine without paint will cost me a good portion of 10K when done. Per Jim’s suggestion I have a,ready asked to someone that makes a file of the part. I pay him, then I find and pay someone with the appropriate cnc machine. Then the aigner fences, then the best powerfeeder currently in production and stand. Then a router spindle just cuz even though I’ll never use it. Some 8 gauge wire a outlet end some aigner extension table brackets and I’m freaking broke again, but it’s worth it cuz Hines,ty I’m happy with nothing less and loose my mind if I have to sit still for like 10 seconds.

And yes I agree some things just deserve to be recognized for what they were.


Nice score Patrick! I'm taking that will replace my newly acquired Fz700 :) I will have to admit that I could see myself easily falling for these old iron machines so opening your threads I have to tell myself to be happy with what you have, just encourage the young man and move on. I have a nasty bad habit for restoring old motorcycles, nothing better than bringing a fresh look to a piece of iron that well deserves it.

[peter gagliardi]

Just find a competent welder that has experience with aluminum, I think TIG welding, and be done with all this handwringing, and talk of plastic and fiberglass patching.

Not rocket science.
Not hard.
And not expensive.

Do it the right way.
It's only a crack, and without seeing it, it is non-structural.

Problem solved, next.....

[Brian Holcombe]

But the part is plastic currently. If the missing pieces were there I would use a plastic epoxy and leave it be.

I suggested having it duplicated in aluminum.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah they are plastic in this 80’s era machine.

And you know if they were thin plastic prone to breaking under exposure to me and my use I would 100% remake them as the earlier machines out of metal.

But they are not metal and honestly a pretty cool plastic of yesteryear not the crap we find today. So I find all the talking well worth it if someone can lead to a solution comparable of the originals.

I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone said just make some wooden ones with chicken wire, or or or. That’s not my thing.

Even when I’m done with this machine it will remain in impeccable and if I have my way original condition and working order. The next over if it does not get smelted will know it’s all original and have nothing to question as it will be obvious. Hopefully they don’t even know the these covers are not original and if they do they see they are exact copies.

Honestly I also considered reproducing them in metal like the earlier machines and I already did the Craigslist search for the appropriate welder as I know I’ll find other uses for it. I also fully trust myself to lear to weld so. But again if I can I want these to be exact replicas.



Just find a competent welder that has experience with aluminum, I think TIG welding, and be done with all this handwringing, and talk of plastic and fiberglass patching.

Not rocket science.
Not hard.
And not expensive.

Do it the right way.
It's only a crack, and without seeing it, it is non-structural.

Problem solved, next.....

[peter gagliardi]

I must have misunderstood. I was pretty sure I read it as "a crack in the cast aluminum dust hood" .
I'm just bustin on ya, but......

[Patrick Walsh]

Nah Peter like I said about cnc I have my opinion and others have theirs and that’s ok with me and I hope it’s ok with them.

I get that my perspective is often off the wall but you know I’m doing this stuff for my own enjoyment and because for me it’s important. I don’t and pretty much expect many to shake their heads as we all shake out heads. I try my best when shaking my head to not actually pass judgment on the person but I do it just the same as the next guy.

I was thinking In response to your last response. If I was into old cars I’d be the guy that refused to retrofit a modern starter and was willing to still hand crank the dam thing. I’d never retrofit a windshield on a car that did not have one or was preferred without one. I’d deal with the bugs in my teeth. All that is what makes this fun to me.

Pretty much I like these machines as that really they left nothing to really be improved on from the perspective of indavidual using the dam thing to make one off items. And pretty much that’s exactly what I do. More so now then ever. At least for now gone are the days of making piles of stiles and rails and honestly that is as repetitive as my work ever has become. If it became more repetitive I’d do my best to find another way of making a living as I’d find zero enjoyment in it.

But and in response to you but, I know mountains out of mole hills just run the dam machine.

Electrician comes Thursday after work to give me a quote. One step at a time..





an
I must have misunderstood. I was pretty sure I read it as "a crack in the cast aluminum dust hood" .
I'm just bustin on ya, but......

[Malcolm McLeod]

Back in the day - about when your '80s' monster was built - I dealt with a lot of injection molding and extrusions in various polymers.

I knew the processes, tho' am not an expert on the chemistry. I do know that plastics will not age terribly well. They will become increasing brittle with exposure to UV, heat, some chemicals, etc. And sometimes just air, as the volatile components cook off over time (depends on the specific polymer).

So repairs to the part in question may 'hold', but the repair material may simply shift the point of failure to the next stress concentration.

Bottom line, if this is to be a user and the part in question is not cosmetic, I'd look at replacement.

...Can't see the part in question on my phone, but getting a new part manufactured will be UGLY expensive I bet (thinking >$1000 to hang an injection mold and shoot 1 part). CNC, 3D print, or 'pour molding' a copy may be only affordable options. ...Or buy NOS off the shelf from manufacturer?

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m looking to make a brand new replacement. I have given thought to the fact that plastic will degrade vrs metal. It is also more damage prone. If I can get them to look the part of the plastic mostly regarding profile curves so forth and so on I will probably settle on metal and paint them.

But I am thinking there has to be a modern plastic that will not deteriorate and is not prone to being brittle or cracking.


Back in the day - about when your '80s' monster was built - I dealt with a lot of injection molding and extrusions in various polymers.

I knew the processes, tho' am not an expert on the chemistry. I do know that plastics will not age terribly well. They will become increasing brittle with exposure to UV, heat, some chemicals, etc. And sometimes just air, as the volatile components cook off over time (depends on the specific polymer).

So repairs to the part in question may 'hold', but the repair material may simply shift the point of failure to the next stress concentration.

Bottom line, if this is to be a user and the part in question is not cosmetic, I'd look at replacement.

...Can't see the part in question on my phone, but getting a new part manufactured will be UGLY expensive I bet (thinking >$1000 to hang an injection mold and shoot 1 part). CNC, 3D print, or 'pour molding' a copy may be only affordable options. ...Or buy NOS off the shelf from manufacturer?

[Patrick Walsh]

Got her out of the van.

Great news the van didn’t even flinch from having the machine in it for three days.

Started with all my favorite chemicals. I have come to find I have a specific sequence regarding the use of chemicals. Crazy but all those get used.

426233

The machine had some spray on rust inhibitor wax like coating on it. It came off very very easy to my surprise.

426234

Then onto a wire wheel on a grinder and the maroon scotch brite routine.

426235

A short time later.

426236

426237

I’m not done with the table top yet. I only got about 45 minutes to tend to everything today and I actually sprayed the internals of the ,aching down with compressed air and cleaned the whole exterior with some caustic chemicals.

I’ll do quite a bit more but the heavy stuff is all off. Namely the tables will need much more work to get a uniform finish if I even can. The tables on this machine ar way more beat than I’d like them to be and not perfectly flat to boot. The out of flat I don’t think will affect it in use as it’s the front righ most operators side is diving down a bit. Otherwise they are flat right to left front to back at the spindle and on all four sides. The diagonal however in one direction is not flat. This is the same exact issue I was having with my t75. And no I’m not using the same straight edge.

[David Kumm]

Patrick, does the large table ring swivel around so the fence can be directed anywhere so the tilt function can go either direction.

I admire your desire to fix the doors. I'd have that goal but probably would be looking at the doors with damage forever. Dave

[Malcolm McLeod]

I’m looking to make a brand new replacement. I have given thought to the fact that plastic will degrade vrs metal. It is also more damage prone. If I can get them to look the part of the plastic mostly regarding profile curves so forth and so on I will probably settle on metal and paint them.

But I am thinking there has to be a modern plastic that will not deteriorate and is not prone to being brittle or cracking.

I'm sure things have improved some in the polymer world in the last 40 years, but 90% of plastics are designed to be cheap and so disposable. Emphasis on 'disposable'. Another 8% are not cheap, but still disposable. Last 2% are REALLY NOT CHEAP and semi-disposable. ....Don't get any on you as my SWAG splatters on the wall.

I've followed your iron restorations and just trying to manage expectations. I'd figure you'll get the same life span out of a new plastic as the old - maybe 30-40 years? If that works for you, then speed on brother!!:cool::D:cool:

[Patrick Walsh]

The inside of this machine is in great shape. As is the outside to be honest. A couple eyesores but nothing I can’t tend to and bring to my satisfaction without a full restoration. Honestly everything under the table is in great shape minus the stupid plastic louvers.

Again even those I can figure out.

The tables though man they are ugly. But the woodworker in me is pretty sure they will not affect use at all. I could be wrong. I’ll make some cuts and find out. If not I take a trip to Michigan.

426239

They also do not have the panes ribs I am used to with my t75 or my new t54 for that matter. At first to thought maybe the tables had already been re ground or something. But these tables have engravings and those engravings are completely intact.

The tables not only are not flat but they have tiny “in most cases” dings all over them. They also have scratches on them mostly where the fence would be slidden and these scratches look like someone took sandpaper to them. Again no of these cosmetic damages effect the flatness of the tables one bit as they are extremely shallow. They are ugly but that’s it. I can live with them though.

The fact is this will not be my last vintage Martin t23 and if this is just one of a stable and I get my show piece tenon table I’ll be happy and not care. Or this machine becomes a parts machine and I find a tenon table machine and another non tenon table machine.

426240

426241

426239

Instead of the planed ribs I’m used to with Martins these tables have a texture that’s constantly inconstant but subtle enough I can’t feel it but I can see it. I. Suspect someone didn’t do something terrible to them at some point. Dam employees and or novice woodworkers who don’t understand how to care for or maintain machinery. But that’s speculation as I also have no idea what’s going on her.

All said I will get this machine to a place I’m very happy with no restoration. I may have to grind the tables but I doubt it. I don’t want to loose the engravings but if I have to I will.

Spindle is .003 at the tip near the nut. It’s zero way down low. Again I have no idea how acceptable this is or not and I’ll just have to make some cuts. The spindle spins so smooth the though it’s bits with zero play. The rise fall and bevel are just dreamy.

Some aigner fences the dust covers, extension tables the Wegomatic powerfeeder and this thing is a porche compared to the scmi t130’s of the same area and they are very nice.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yes it does swivel although I have yet to try. The gomad at work I sourced for my boss seems to be stuck.

I can’t live with it. Things like that drive me as nuts as a machine with excessive ru out or wanky fences.

Now if I was gonna throw this at a couple employees I’d think different. But then I wouldn’t give them this but prob lally a pile of Scm used equipment.


Patrick, does the large table ring swivel around so the fence can be directed anywhere so the tilt function can go either direction.

I admire your desire to fix the doors. I'd have that goal but probably would be looking at the doors with damage forever. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah I’m 42 so if I’m 70-80 and I fully hope to be and promise these machines will still be with me unless I fall very ill and yeah I could I probably won’t care or I’ll just have to remake them again lol.

Metal is probably a better idea. What I’m apposed to is them looking like the metal ones on the older machines as then I’m just not being authtic to this machine and for whatever reason that’s important to me.


I'm sure things have improved some in the polymer world in the last 40 years, but 90% of plastics are designed to be cheap and so disposable. Emphasis on 'disposable'. Another 8% are not cheap, but still disposable. Last 2% are REALLY NOT CHEAP and semi-disposable. ....Don't get any on you as my SWAG splatters on the wall.

I've followed your iron restorations and just trying to manage expectations. I'd figure you'll get the same life span out of a new plastic as the old - maybe 30-40 years? If that works for you, then speed on brother!!:cool::D:cool:

[Mark e Kessler]

ABS could be a potential candidate, of course now you need a hotrunner min 20-30k, then a mold idk maybe 30k? Then you need to convince a converter to make one part...

Maybe find a small foundry do a sand casting of it...



I'm sure things have improved some in the polymer world in the last 40 years, but 90% of plastics are designed to be cheap and so disposable. Emphasis on 'disposable'. Another 8% are not cheap, but still disposable. Last 2% are REALLY NOT CHEAP and semi-disposable. ....Don't get any on you as my SWAG splatters on the wall.

I've followed your iron restorations and just trying to manage expectations. I'd figure you'll get the same life span out of a new plastic as the old - maybe 30-40 years? If that works for you, then speed on brother!!:cool::D:cool:

[David Kumm]

Martin ( and most other ) shapers had ground tables so the rings were easier to make flush with the table. Flat is more critical when doing freehand work and not important when running a feeder and I would expect you will have the whole thing ground if needed. Are the quill bearings oil bath and is the pump mechanical or electric? I think Martin changed their lube system from the T21 to the T23. Joe or Darcy will know. The real beauty of those old shapers are inside the cabinet. The system to lubricate, the precision large bearings, and the large frame motor and guts to support all of it are impressive. Unlike new shapers, Martin hung the internals off a heavy base rather than relying on the cast iron top. New machines cheat on the base and save money by using the top as an anchor. Then they get a dip in the middle. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm I always thought the long grooves where what a planed table looked like and ground table had swirls like a scm table. So are you saying I have
Martin ( and most other ) shapers had ground tables so the rings were easier to make flush with the table. Flat is more critical when doing freehand work and not important when running a feeder and I would expect you will have the whole thing ground if needed. Are the quill bearings oil bath and is the pump mechanical or electric? I think Martin changed their lube system from the T21 to the T23. Joe or Darcy will know. The real beauty of those old shapers are inside the cabinet. The system to lubricate, the precision large bearings, and the large frame motor and guts to support all of it are impressive. Unlike new shapers, Martin hung the internals off a heavy base rather than relying on the cast iron top. New machines cheat on the base and save money by using the top as an anchor. Then they get a dip in the middle. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm I always thought the long grooves where what a planed table looked like and ground table had swirls like a scm table. So are you saying I have
Martin ( and most other ) shapers had ground tables so the rings were easier to make flush with the table. Flat is more critical when doing freehand work and not important when running a feeder and I would expect you will have the whole thing ground if needed. Are the quill bearings oil bath and is the pump mechanical or electric? I think Martin changed their lube system from the T21 to the T23. Joe or Darcy will know. The real beauty of those old shapers are inside the cabinet. The system to lubricate, the precision large bearings, and the large frame motor and guts to support all of it are impressive. Unlike new shapers, Martin hung the internals off a heavy base rather than relying on the cast iron top. New machines cheat on the base and save money by using the top as an anchor. Then they get a dip in the middle. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Martin ( and most other ) shapers had ground tables so the rings were easier to make flush with the table. Flat is more critical when doing freehand work and not important when running a feeder and I would expect you will have the whole thing ground if needed. Are the quill bearings oil bath and is the pump mechanical or electric? I think Martin changed their lube system from the T21 to the T23. Joe or Darcy will know. The real beauty of those old shapers are inside the cabinet. The system to lubricate, the precision large bearings, and the large frame motor and guts to support all of it are impressive. Unlike new shapers, Martin hung the internals off a heavy base rather than relying on the cast iron top. New machines cheat on the base and save money by using the top as an anchor. Then they get a dip in the middle. Dave



Hmm I always thought the long grooves where what a planed table looked like and ground table had swirls like a scm table. So are you saying I have [QUOTE=David backwards.

I figure figured ground was Blanchard and when I googled Blanchard it looked to be a huge soiling disk and left me thinking it must be the machine used on Scmi hence the swirls.

Then at least what I thought to be large surface planing machine’s travel side to side or back and forth “whatever you choose to call it” and hence make those long straight Martin ribs.

These tables don’t have those ribs. They honestly have nothing and if anything some weird as swirl that’s not a swirl.

Machine has an electronic oil bath for quill bearings.

I would agree. I’m enamered by the inside of this machine or under the hood. I’d feel the same if the tables where at least flat although I agree with your summation that it probably does not matter.

Nobody hear me wrong I loooooove this machine. Ill do whatever need be to get it q00% operating perfect beyond my expectations and for way less than anew anything.

[peter gagliardi]

Electronic oil bath bearings? Can you elaborate? My T21 had oil bath with I believe an impeller pump- great system.

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick,
Martin shapers of this era and on always have non ribbed tables. My Hofmann shaper has ribbed tables, it works but I prefer smooth on shapers for curved work.

I would go metal on the cover. Mine is missing the back cover and sometime I will duplicate the existing side cover. It is cast alu but I plan to make it out of 3/8” alu plate and have the slats bent at the sheet metal shop. On the original the slats were just nailed to the frame and falling apart. I put it back together by taping small screws in through the slats from the back side. There might be pictures of this on the Canadian site.

JB weld worked fine to repair my hood. I am seriously thinking about upgrading to a newer fence on my T23. The original was good for its time but leaky and it’s hard to beat a pinned fence on a shaper. Fun to see the shop this came from. I doubt the PO would sell that original tenon hood?
Yours looks in a lot better condition than what I started with.

[Patrick Walsh]

I can’t as I am ignorant.

I only know of there bring two from spending. Out less hours over the last few years reading everything I can find online about these machines. Most of it by way of yourself, joe and Dave.

I can not get pictures again till next week but my setup looks like joes on the backside of the door. But just behind the inner hinge is a box with wires going to and from the oil holder pump on the backside of the door. I didn’t look close enough to fully even begun to understand what is going on as I have had like zero time. I just assumed that box with wires must mean I have the electronic pump.

I’m not sure what one would be best but my gut tells me electronic anything is always bad.


Electronic oil bath bearings? Can you elaborate? My T21 had oil bath with I believe an impeller pump- great system.

[Patrick Walsh]

Patrick,
Martin shapers of this era and on always have non ribbed tables. My Hofmann shaper has ribbed tables, it works but I prefer smooth on shapers for curved work.

I would go metal on the cover. Mine is missing the back cover and sometime I will duplicate the existing side cover. It is cast alu but I plan to make it out of 3/8” alu plate and have the slats bent at the sheet metal shop. On the original the slats were just nailed to the frame and falling apart. I put it back together by taping small screws in through the slats from the back side. There might be pictures of this on the Canadian site.

JB weld worked fine to repair my hood. I am seriously thinking about upgrading to a newer fence on my T23. The original was good for its time but leaky and it’s hard to beat a pinned fence on a shaper. Fun to see the shop this came from. I doubt the PO would sell that original tenon hood?
Yours looks in a lot better condition than what I started with.

Hmm well good to know on the curved work, to date I’m a virgin. It’s time to put that behind me at this point however. Well at least I am on a shaper. Time to put my big boy pants on and fully realize the potential of my equipment.

As for ribs I’m confused as my brand new t54 has ribs. Not as pronounced as older machines but clearly ribs.

I’ll probably use JB weld although my crack runs the full length of one side so I’m scared unless done to be structurally sound and not just cosmetic it’s gonna implode one day.

As for the louvers I’m gonna try and reproduce at least in appearance what is original to this particular 80’s era machine. I may give in and use aluminum. If so I’d be happy to let you know the cost and pass them onto you for that cost.

As for pined hoods I think you are talking like my old Felder where the underside of the adjustments had a indexing pin. If so I have been thinking the same thing except replacement scares me off. I wouldn’t know where to source something better “I might now” second I love the old time look of the original one. With the machines I have had to use at work I’m still very used to the annoyance of archaic machinery regarding these details.

Can you think of a way to add a indexing pin to this fence?

And no the seller won’t sell anything else Martin :(

Very nice guy though and honestly if I had found and purchased was he has I wouldn’t sell a bit of it. I’m pretty sure he would loan it to me to reproduce. I’ll take him up on his offer when I can breath financially. I suspect you would be interested in one if semi affordable..

[Joe Calhoon]

Sorry, by ribs I mean the planed surface. Martin does in now on a CNC machine for the jointer and planer. I think Hofmann still uses a planer for theirs.
Hofmann and Panhans make nice aftermarket pined fences with mechanical digital readouts. Martin will sell their manual pined fence but you will loose the swivel feature of the fence. If you can find one a T25 era fence will fit the T23.

[Patrick Walsh]

Who sells panhans in the United States.?


Sorry, by ribs I mean the planed surface. Martin does in now on a CNC machine for the jointer and planer. I think Hofmann still uses a planer for theirs.
Hofmann and Panhans make nice aftermarket pined fences with mechanical digital readouts. Martin will sell their manual pined fence but you will loose the swivel feature of the fence. If you can find one a T25 era fence will fit the T23.

[David Kumm]

A very good grind and fine grain cast iron and you won't see the swirls. Back when planed tables were common, companies planed some tables, and ground others. Generally the lines followed the path of the wood so they wouldn't work well on the Martin shaper where the fence could be moved so the board moved across the ridges. Gomad was big on planing tables so maybe their shapers had them. I don't know if their hood swiveled or if their tenoning table could be set flush to the table rather than above it. SCM planed tables until the early 90's and then went to grinding on most everything. The ridges reduce friction and wood glides better over it. I like them because when buying used, I can see if there is wear on the tables. A table saw with lines near the blade has seen light use. My old Porter jointer has faint lines running in both directions. A little canners wax and it is like playing air hockey with wood. Dave

[Brian Holcombe]

The table looks ground, but I can't tell if it's from a surface grinder or a blanchard grinder. If it looks like the swirls on your SCM bandsaw than it's Blanchard (rotary) ground, and if they're straight lines then it is surface ground.

If it has light swirls than perhaps someone cleaned up the table at some point.

[Joe Calhoon]

Who sells panhans in the United States.?
i don’t know of any dealers but they have a online catalog and you can order direct. Most German companies don’t take credit cards overseas and that makes it more difficult.

[Patrick Walsh]

I like the lines or ribs.

The Gomad has very nice ones.

I’ll relay to Brian with this also, I think maybe the tables we’re screwed with at some point by someone. I could imagine that due to the pecks all over them and the that they are not 100% flat some genius that thought they could do a dam thing about it might have tried.

Butt that’s only speculation.

But again I like ribs. I get Blanchard are circular like my Scmi. Th size Scm rather Centuro tables are so wimpy. But I still love that dam saw.





A very good grind and fine grain cast iron and you won't see the swirls. Back when planed tables were common, companies planed some tables, and ground others. Generally the lines followed the path of the wood so they wouldn't work well on the Martin shaper where the fence could be moved so the board moved across the ridges. Gomad was big on planing tables so maybe their shapers had them. I don't know if their hood swiveled or if their tenoning table could be set flush to the table rather than above it. SCM planed tables until the early 90's and then went to grinding on most everything. The ridges reduce friction and wood glides better over it. I like them because when buying used, I can see if there is wear on the tables. A table saw with lines near the blade has seen light use. My old Porter jointer has faint lines running in both directions. A little canners wax and it is like playing air hockey with wood. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Thank you joe,

I think my boss may have contacted you about some short aigner table brackets.

I’ll be contacting you next month for those fence plates. I’m gonna see if Brian and I can figure out a way to make the original Martin fence pinned.

I do agree with you. I finally made some cuts with the gomad today at work. It’s no big deal for my work not having a pinned fence but it’s so much nicer when they are. I had no point of reference to this point as all the fences I have used to date were pinned.


i don’t know of any dealers but they have a online catalog and you can order direct. Most German companies don’t take credit cards overseas and that makes it more difficult.

[Patrick Walsh]

I mentioned another 3phase surprise.

426380

426381

426382

There’s a few more accessories not in the pictures.

This all is getting totally carried away now. I’m fully addicted without a doubt. But you know I’m totally ok with it.

[Jim Becker]

Tiny little thing... :D :D :D

[Malcolm McLeod]

You'll be turning a few pens now..?? The cigar variety, I'm sure.:eek:

[Jeff Duncan]

I can’t as I am ignorant.

I only know of there bring two from spending. Out less hours over the last few years reading everything I can find online about these machines. Most of it by way of yourself, joe and Dave.

I can not get pictures again till next week but my setup looks like joes on the backside of the door. But just behind the inner hinge is a box with wires going to and from the oil holder pump on the backside of the door. I didn’t look close enough to fully even begun to understand what is going on as I have had like zero time. I just assumed that box with wires must mean I have the electronic pump.

I’m not sure what one would be best but my gut tells me electronic anything is always bad.

Pics please!!! Mine has the same oil bath as Peter's which is actually not what I thought it would be at all. There's no impeller at all. As far as I can understand its centrifugal force of the cup spinning at the bottom of the quill that "slings" the oil out and up to the top of the upper bearing. I know they can fail.... but having looked it over my thought is the failures are likely either from running dry, or too much gunk built up over time. Hence I would never convert to a sealed bearing.

Anyway if it had been an oil bath I would have recommend a full quill tear down to remove all the gunk that accumulates over decades. I don't know anything about how your machine works though so????

JeffD

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh man I have no idea either.

And the machine is at my uncles shop and I’m heading to New Jersey for the weekend to help finish fabrications a part for the t75.

All I know is there is thing mounted to the inside of the right door and a sight glass. It’s at least half full. It has a series of I think black hoses coming out of it. Just around the corner from it in the base proper there is what looks like some kind of small electronic component. Honestly I have yet tot stop and even try to make sense of it as I have been going going going like a nut.

I’ll get pictures next week and try to wrap my head around what I have.

m
Pics please!!! Mine has the same oil bath as Peter's which is actually not what I thought it would be at all. There's no impeller at all. As far as I can understand its centrifugal force of the cup spinning at the bottom of the quill that "slings" the oil out and up to the top of the upper bearing. I know they can fail.... but having looked it over my thought is the failures are likely either from running dry, or too much gunk built up over time. Hence I would never convert to a sealed bearing.

Anyway if it had been an oil bath I would have recommend a full quill tear down to remove all the gunk that accumulates over decades. I don't know anything about how your machine works though so????

JeffD

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah I was thinking chop sticks or those sticks women wear in their hair.

You know I just gotta find a niche market. Isn’t that what the “making money woodworking” thread saiz ;)


You'll be turning a few pens now..?? The cigar variety, I'm sure.:eek:

[Patrick Walsh]

I like a big car.

Gonna have to build a new garage for it.



Tiny little thing... :D :D :D

[Jim Becker]

I think you need to find your next property as just land and build one of those shops-that-just-happen-to-have-integrated-living-quarters arrangements. :) :D

[Joe Calhoon]

Oh man I have no idea eitherAll I know is there is thing mounted to the inside of the right door and a sight glass. It’s at least half full. It has a series of I think black hoses coming out of it. Just around the corner from it in the base proper there is what looks like some kind of small electronic component. Honestly I have yet tot stop and even try to make sense of it as I have been going going going like a nutm

My T23 has a 24v oil pump mounted on the door. I believe the T21 shapers had a mechanical pump mounted on the spindle assembly somewhere. Probably because the 23 tilts they had to take a different approach. The other electrical component at the bottom is a motor shutoff connected to the brake.
For pinned fences it’s probably possible to modify the existing but might be a lot of work.

[David Kumm]

You certainly want to keep the oil pump functional. The large precision bearings need oil. The design is not appropriate for a greased bearing unless you want to spend more than the cost of the shaper to convert to a system that accepts a precision greased bearing. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

So joe,

If mine is also door mounter and a t23 would that probably make it 24v or electrical also.

In the case of such and failure could it be replaced with a new off the shelf non Martin unit if end be. Or are our makings paler weights without them?

I’m gonna look long and hard into the pinned option on the original fence. I’ll probably recruit brined brain and maybe his hands. It’s clear he is way smarter than me.




My T23 has a 24v oil pump mounted on the door. I believe the T21 shapers had a mechanical pump mounted on the spindle assembly somewhere. Probably because the 23 tilts they had to take a different approach. The other electrical component at the bottom is a motor shutoff connected to the brake.
For pinned fences it’s probably possible to modify the existing but might be a lot of work.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yes Dave I really want to care for the machine and keep functioning.

The spindle by hand moves so smooth I can hardly believe it. It’s unlike any others shaper I have ever had my hands on.

Sadly I’ll will buy the greased conversion kit from Martin before it can’t be had. I’ll research to see in the event of the pump or a component of the pump failing that I can’t just fix that and retain the oil bath system. But if I find out I can’t repair the oil bath if it should fail the $5K is all be it a huge expenditure for me it’s nothing compared to a new machine of equal quality and pretty much on par a with a good old used one in the same condition.


You certainly want to keep the oil pump functional. The large precision bearings need oil. The design is not appropriate for a greased bearing unless you want to spend more than the cost of the shaper to convert to a system that accepts a precision greased bearing. Dave

[David Kumm]

It will be interesting to see if another pump could be substituted if needed. That might be easier than swapping to grease. For grease to work, you probably still need open bearings and the existing system replaced with a housing for non contact shields. Then the bearings can throw excess grease yet find equilibrium so the correct amount stays inside. Not as easy as it seems. That is why new shapers run much smaller bearings. They can get the speed with standard bearings and shields but give up the high load capacity. My T130 is a big machine but the bearings are nothing like on my T21. The old US shapers like Whitney and Porter were even more stout. They had crappy fences though. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

It's just an oil pump with some electrical controls, it's not like martin designed, patented and built it themselves.

Anything is repairable/replaceable.


People made specific fences for each application back then, it's still probably the best way, but who wants to make and store all those fences.

[Patrick Walsh]

I figured so much.

Like anything if you are motivated and have the brains to figure it out then tooling and or access to it.

Deep pockets sadly in many ways.

Or at least a complete disregard financial responsibility.


It's just an oil pump with some electrical controls, it's not like martin designed, patented and built it themselves.

Anything is repairable/replaceable.


People made specific fences for each application back then, it's still probably the best way, but who wants to make and store all those fences.

[Darcy Warner]

Really not that expensive, it just takes knowing what to look for and some time.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah for me that means expensive as I have no idea what I’m doing.

I open a control panel even the most simple and I’m lost. Never mind the mess on most modern machines or even this old Martin. Between the Oiler the two or variable horsepower motor electronic speed setting I have no idea what I am doing.

When i purchased the machine the previous owner gave me the electoral diagram with it. He briefly pointed to this or that and I was totally lost not knowing what hell he was talking about. I’m gonna need a education on electrical machinery wiring at some point.


Really not that expensive, it just takes knowing what to look for and some time.

[Patrick Walsh]

Did some prep anticipating getting the machine in the shop next weekend.

A couple months ago I purchased this lift table. The ramp I use has become way to much of a chore to setup, break down and then store. I hope to get one more of these lift tables for the outside of the house so I can do away with the large 4x8 platform.

Pictures will give you all a glimmer of what I go through everytime I bring a machine into or out of my shop. This took me about four hours today. What pictures don’t show is the number of times the dam thing fell off the pallet jack or a wheel busted through a piece of the crap 1/4 material I was using. I know better but figured I’d give the 1/4 material a try being I had it. Normally I just shuffle two sheets of 3/4. That’s also a pita and tiring.

Yeah and the extension cord what can I say I had no chain.

426576

426577

426578

426579

426580

426581

426582

[Malcolm McLeod]

Several folks with their feet in the Creek can assist with electrical diagrams / schematics / wiring issues. Scan the schematics and post here if/when you need advice.

Another helpful guide is to have good overall photos of the various components in the electrical enclosure; literally down to the level of reading the wire numbers and the terminal that they are landed on.

The schematic should show you how it was meant to be wired, but the photos will tell you (or a 'helper') how it IS wired.

(Sometimes, 80% is learning the symbols used on the drawings.)

[Joe Calhoon]

So joe,

If mine is also door mounter and a t23 would that probably make it 24v or electrical also.

In the case of such and failure could it be replaced with a new off the shelf non Martin unit if end be. Or are our makings paler weights without them?

I’m gonna look long and hard into the pinned option on the original fence. I’ll probably recruit brined brain and maybe his hands. It’s clear he is way smarter than me.

Patrick,
I would not worry about the oil pump if it’s working. It pumps very slowly- like just a drop in the window every 3 or 4 seconds. There is also a copper coil in a box next to the pump. No idea what that is for, maybe cooling. My coil was missing and I replaced it with the help of another owner who sent pictures of his. I would just run it for a while before doing anything. It’s pretty simple, the 24 volt comes off the rectifier in the bottom left of the box.

I would also use the fence for a while just to see how it goes. One quirk of the T23 fence is the left side can be tilted to match the tilt of the shaft. This is great but when you add a thicker aftermarket fence like the Aigner you have to make some modifications to this and it becomes a little more difficult to maintain square consistently. I actually have the original multiplex fences for my machine for a template and holes where they mount. With the original fence plates you will not have the problem of going out of square. The T21 fence is a simpler affair and I like it better. This fence leaks, not terrible but the modern fences have improved a lot in this respect. The best part of this fence is the micro adjust of both left or right plates and the whole fence both plates together. Like I said just use it for a while before doing anything. I’m picky about shaper fences but mine get used a lot.

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe,

I figured I would use the fence as you suggested prior to making any big decision.

I’m also picky about fences but mostly maintaining square. It always seems regardless if machine you gotta figure out the shims.

I learnt in a pinned Felder f700 z both sides of this fence moved. I then worked in two different scmi machines. One had a fence with the adjustment in the right that moved the outfeed side. It took me a few minutes to figure that out.

The gomad adjusts on both sides again but like the Martin is not pinned the lack of a pin is a drawback as if anything moves if you have to say adjust for a big cut you wanna take in multiple passes you have no guarantees you don’t loosen things up snd whoops.

Another consideration for just using the Martin fence is I want yo add the aigner fences. I’m not sure why I just do. I’ve come very accustom today wood plates I can screw to. My concern is as you suggested how to connect to the outfeed fence. I’m not so keen to hack up my Maryin fence or the aigner.

Are you suggesting you have the original plates that came with the machine?

[Joe Calhoon]

It’s not a big deal to mount Aigner fences to the T23. Right side goes right on. Left side only involves drilling a hole for the Kipp lever bolt to go through. The original wood fence on this side was held by screws from the back. I have the Aigner off the T23 now but here is a picture.
426672
here is a shot of the underside of my old Hofmann fence. The close spacing of the pins allows it to work on the swiveling large shaper ring. My T26 ear morterized fence has wide spaced pins for more stability and accuracy but you loose the swivel function. The fault of the old Hofmann fence is lack of fine adjustment.
426673
This is my upgraded Hofmann fence, pinned with fine adjustment, movement by hand wheel and mechanical digital readout. Not quite as accurate or repeatable as the T26 fence but not bad.

426674

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe,

Ok you did it..

That second Hoffman fence is very nice.

I think I could live with painting it to match the machine aigner fences and Bobs my uncle..

The question becomes how much $$$$$

[Patrick Walsh]

Well the mothership has landed. Ok not quite the mothership. That would be a tenon table t23. But this t23 is orbiting my shop and getting closer to making its final landing.

Rented a drop deck trailer. The seller of the machine mentioned them to me. I had previously not known of them. And omg all o can say it what a time and effort saver.

Getting the machine off the truck and in front of my back door took about 1.5 hrs. And honestly it was a very easy 1.5 hrs.

Tomorrow I’ll get her the rest of the way in.

Otto Martin preservation society of greater Boston lol..

All loaded up ready to go.

426999

Back at my house.

427000

I gotta get through that gate. I got lucky this time the gate opening is 1/8 wider than the machine.

427001

I call this dead mans corner. I have lost many machines off the side of the pallet jack around this corner. Not fully lost but pallet jack off the plywood and a real nightmare to make right.

427002

427003

And in front of my door. I just gotta the pig up in that platform. Don’t you all worry I got this.

What’s sick is I have figured out I actually like this dance. The whole thing is about a days work renting a trailer, getting the machine Into my shop, yard and shop cleaned up and trailer returned. This took 1.5 hrs of moving and 1hr to get the trailer.

Tomorrow I hope to employ a lift table on the inside of my shop door to get this thing down into my shop vrs my ramp. If all goes well it will take another 1.5 hrs max and I’ll have a system to get machines into or out of my shop in 1/2 day as apposed to full day. And without destroying my body to boot.

This machine is a beast. When you get to moving machines with pallet jacks vrs form trucks you really get a idea of what you got. Makes those felders seem like tuna cans. Can’t wait to run one of these cast iron beasts.

427004

[Patrick Walsh]

Another little gem...

Well I guess taste in vintage machines is fairly subjective.

This is my uncles saw. He makes exhibits for trade shows. He acquired the saw 25-30 years ago when he lurches a small shop and their business.

He will retire in the next five years. The saw is mine should I want it. The cast table bellow is perfect they just like the huge table for their work.

427005

427006

427007

427008

Clearly I’m not getting it it to my basement shop without cutting a hole in my ceiling or floor whatev4r way you wanna think of it.

The fact is I’ll move in the next five years. But then I’ll probably take the machine even if only for sentimental reason.

[Bryan Lisowski]

That's a great looking old saw! I would have to cut a hole in the roof in my shop to even be able to use.

[Brian Holcombe]

Excellent, Patrick! That drop deck trailer is a great idea.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeh you don’t know what you don’t know till you know right.

This one I’m gonna file in my Rolodex to argue my case for every task there is actually the ‘’RIGHT” tool.

Just wish I could back it up the stupid platform outside my shop door. You know when my shop is full all I’ll have to lust over is a new house with a bigger ground level shop, I bet when I can’t bring anything new in I’ll concur the motivation to finally move lol..


Excellent, Patrick! That drop deck trailer is a great idea.

[David Kumm]

Patrick, watch for JLG used. I picked up a 1014 ( 10K lbs and 14" long ) that was like new, still had the paint on the floor, for $4500. I added about 8 additional tie downs because you need way more than standard. Make sure the battery and hydraulic lines are good. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

That's the predecessor to my old Oliver #16. Mine was built in 1924.

https://youtu.be/Mqg4zg9wSr4

[Patrick Walsh]

Per usual Darcy that’s a beauty!

Im starting to get the impression you been at this machine thing a while.

Thanks for the info..

So what’s the tag on the side I photographed if not the model number?


That's the predecessor to my old Oliver #16. Mine was built in 1924.

https://youtu.be/Mqg4zg9wSr4

[Darcy Warner]

Probably an inventory tag from a long ago owner.

[Jeff Duncan]

I can't believe your bringing home all these machines and haven't pulled that fence yet! That would have been the first thing to go for me. No way I'm humping heavy machines around like that.... pull the fence and back right to the door. Cant wait to see you try to get that lathe though the yard like that:D

JeffD

[Patrick Walsh]

I’d take the white one down adjacent to the stone wall but I only own 1k of property in the other side. Until this time last year there was a broken down old rental house there. I used to actually be able to just back up their yard as they parked on the dam lawn like 10 cars deep.

As for the other side of my yard well no freaking way. The in<yo thing I love more than my mother, my dog or my shop is my garden. About eight years ago work was slow and I spent a whole summer with my mother and skid steer building a garden that wraps two sides of my house. That’s actually when the crane tipped over planting a 6k lb tree. It was four months of like 12-15 hour days. All those giant stones have a full 18” of crushed run under them packed down in 4” lifts. I spend as much as a new Martin jointer and planer on the dam thing.

Not a chance I’ll ever back a truck through it. At the time I was building custom houses and had not yet decided I refused to do general construction for the rest of my life. Shortly after the garden I came to this conclusion lol and started building this shop.

427073


427074

427075

427076

427077

427078

427079


I can't believe your bringing home all these machines and haven't pulled that fence yet! That would have been the first thing to go for me. No way I'm humping heavy machines around like that.... pull the fence and back right to the door. Cant wait to see you try to get that lathe though the yard like that:D

JeffD

[Jared Sankovich]

I can't believe your bringing home all these machines and haven't pulled that fence yet! That would have been the first thing to go for me. No way I'm humping heavy machines around like that.... pull the fence and back right to the door. Cant wait to see you try to get that lathe though the yard like that:D

JeffD

#1
I was in my current house for about 1 hour before the sawsall came out and the fence posts were "removeable". Just enough to fit a box truck through.

[Patrick Walsh]

We all have our priorities I guess I have multiple.

Well she has landed.

The lift table made the whole ordeal much more easy. Although the width of the machine would not fit through my door so I had to remove it back to the foundation then reinstall it. That added quite a bit of work. That door is going to grow in width by at least 1-2’ before next winter.

Draggin her up the dam ramp. I need another lift table so I can just push the machine from the pallet jack to the lift table. Then from lift table to lift table.

427080

Door removed

427081

She is in and the lift table really is rather for 3k or this machine does not weigh that much. I don’t think so though as it’s pretty clear it’s very very heavy.

427082

She on the ground safe and sound.

427083

Used some 5/8 bolts 427084nuts and washers to lever her. I can fit 3/4 so I’ll switch them out tomorrow.

Fence checks out perfectly coplanar and square. Although I can’t figure out how to get the two knurled knobs to adjust the for and aft. They seem stuck, if anyone can give me a tip please chime in. I’m either missing something or they are stuck.

427085

427086

Plenty of room for more ;)

427087

That’s it. Now the lathe, I’ll probably take weekend to prep for it. The far right of the miter station has to go. I may nix the whole thing. And I gotta hang the phase converter. That should keep me busy.

[Jim Becker]

When you go to the 3/4x10 bolts for leveling, can you get some with actual "feet" on them for more stability?

[Patrick Walsh]

Not if they are bolts.

This is my poor mans solution to McMasters options.

I found a number of other brands geared to heavy equipment but it’s like $250-400 for four.

I don’t think these are going anywhere. They are bomber. I’ll get a picture from inside later.

I did think I could weld some plate onto the bottoms if I had a welder. Brian oh Brian where art thou....



When you go to the 3/4x10 bolts for leveling, can you get some with actual "feet" on them for more stability?

[Jim Becker]

If you're willing to stay with 1/2x13, there are some very nice and reasonably priced products on Amazon...

https://smile.amazon.com/Level-Diameter-Level-Mount-Threaded/dp/B0029MRUKK/ref=pd_sbs_60_5/146-9572100-9131224?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0029MRUKK&pd_rd_r=7fbb5976-f89e-4b17-8de7-c3e0d368ff5c&pd_rd_w=hnxTj&pd_rd_wg=NaBYF&pf_rd_p=7cd8f929-4345-4bf2-a554-7d7588b3dd5f&pf_rd_r=7M01H2M2NPQD1TN7446J&psc=1&refRID=7M01H2M2NPQD1TN7446J

Lots of metric options, too. I didn't find any 3/4x10, however.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks Jim,

I honestly want the 3/4 the machine is silly heavy.

I’ll look at McMaster again tonight. Cuz I can tell my bolts are scaring you.

If you saw them in person I think you would also say they are totally sufficient.


If you're willing to stay with 1/2x13, there are some very nice and reasonably priced products on Amazon...

https://smile.amazon.com/Level-Diameter-Level-Mount-Threaded/dp/B0029MRUKK/ref=pd_sbs_60_5/146-9572100-9131224?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0029MRUKK&pd_rd_r=7fbb5976-f89e-4b17-8de7-c3e0d368ff5c&pd_rd_w=hnxTj&pd_rd_wg=NaBYF&pf_rd_p=7cd8f929-4345-4bf2-a554-7d7588b3dd5f&pf_rd_r=7M01H2M2NPQD1TN7446J&psc=1&refRID=7M01H2M2NPQD1TN7446J

Lots of metric options, too. I didn't find any 3/4x10, however.

[Patrick Walsh]

Ok questions for other t23 or 21 owners.

First I can’t get the fence to adjust via the knurled knobs as most every fence in earth does.

I’m not sure if I’m missing something obvious or if the dam thing is frozen.

Whatever the case I don’t want to break anything trying to figure it out.

427094

Then this is the oil pump on the back of the door. I’m sharing this so people can tell me what I have here at least thinking there is are two technologies to the oiled quill.

427097
427095

This is the electronic box just inside the door. I have no idea what it is but I have a feeling it’s a electronic break of sorts.

427096

Then the throat rings that are supposed to spin with the fence for the tenon table if I had one. Well they don’t spin and all I can thing is they are also seized. Kinda surprising as one of my go to agents for cleaning the table tops is a pb breaker. I have released the handle under the front of the table so I know it’s not that.

Other than that one of the speed indicator lights on the side mount control panel box is missing its plastic nut on the backside. I’ll get pictures of that tomorrow as I’d like to source a replacement.

Oh and the bolts I’m using as feet for Jim. Jim I looked on McMaster again. They have 3/4 10 feet for $25 I’m willing to pony up for. Said they carry 7700 lbs each.

[Darcy Warner]

That is a limit switch attached to the foot brake, step on the break, it opens the run circuit and power is cut.

Oil pump looks to be just a simple electric solenoid that turns it on when machine is running.

Time to punch rings out from bottom side and clean them. Lock could be stuck, or broken.

Spindle locks, table ring locks, typical stuff that gets screwed up.

[Patrick Walsh]

Any experience with my fence micro adjust on this machine.

I pulled the gomad fully part. It was self explanatory. Works perfect now. I thought it was perfectly square “the gomad” but it’s not. Gomads table rings are stuck also. Looks like some dope jury rigged the set pin and then stripped the poo out of it.

I’d li,e to say lazy half assed employees but often it’s the boss that puts a bandaid on it and saiz get back to work.


That is a limit switch attached to the foot brake, step on the break, it opens the run circuit and power is cut.

Oil pump looks to be just a simple electric solenoid that turns it on when machine is running.

Time to punch rings out from bottom side and clean them. Lock could be stuck, or broken.

Spindle locks, table ring locks, typical stuff that gets screwed up.

[Darcy Warner]

Stuff happens, stuff breaks.
At least its mechanical stuff, wait until plc's fail after 10 years.

[Patrick Walsh]

Gee thanks Darcy.

See someone is feeling friendly tonight..

If so no big deal I’ll just buy a new t12 or 27, simple solution ;)



Stuff happens, stuff breaks.
At least its mechanical stuff, wait until plc's fail after 10 years.

[Jared Sankovich]

Gee thanks Darcy.

See someone is feeling friendly tonight..

If so no big deal I’ll just buy a new t12 or 27, simple solution ;)

Lol

I'm guessing Darcy was referring to the new circuit board filled machines, and not the mechanical setups like the t23

[Patrick Walsh]

Well that would make more sense but easy for me to confuse as it was kinda a half a thought he shared. Or maybe I’m dust dense as a brick and it was a full thought idk. I think I often mistake you Darcy.

I thought my giant box was just full of relays but you know and to date I have been directed there is nothing in this machine that can not be easily replaced. If you are right and that was his point I missed it.

I know nothing of electricity other than basic wire gauges amp draw black, white, green. I had to go google pl’s and honestly still had no idea if this old gem had them. Figured it’s clear any new machine does. Also figured anything one is motivated to fix and has deep enough pockets can be tended to.

Thanks intervening as who knows where this coulda ended up lol..




Lol

I'm guessing Darcy was referring to the new circuit board filled machines, and not the mechanical setups like the t23

[Jim Becker]

Hah! The bolts are not scaring me. I'm just thinking that with that kind of weight and the fact that no matter how much mass you have, there will still be "some" level of vibration when the machine is running, that "wider shoes" will provide a more stable interface with the floor than four tiny bolt heads merely by an increase in friction. :) Alternative to buying...weld some feet onto the end of some bolts.

I would have thought you might be afeared of the aesthetics of such a massive machine sitting on some tiny bolt heads. LOL (JK!)

[Patrick Walsh]

Actually Jim all your thoughts have crossed my mind and did or do concern me.

It just comes down to this. I was walking through Home Depot yesterday half in a rush in need to a 3/8 masonry bit to hand my door again. I thought I should at least get some 4x4 and replace the two I ever pieces I picked the machine up with.

Then I thought hmm maybe look what they have for self leveling feet as the machine has a easy to mount place for them and it’s beefy enough I’m not the slightest worried about snapping a casting. Then I got a vision of some home made feet the owner of the vintage machinery web site made, then the Sumer ones I refuse to pony up for but in all honestly would buy if money was no option.

Hence this bolt solution was born as I t cost me $20. I figured my Felder pos came with a similar configuration at one corner so why not.

It really comes down to with my ferocity to acquire machines and abasulte need for perfection even if 40 plus years old, I always have something I can spend on and normally it’s something to the tune of 100’s if not a couple grand.

Just right now I’m waiting in the last parts from the plater for the t75. My guess is another $8-900. Then the scales from the laser engraver and the flattening of the fence. I bet another $1000. Then I have got a few more bits Brian and I will collaborate on for the t75. Then I’m gonna make up a full welded outfeed table with stainless top much like the new Martin t75 and planer come with.

And then I have this t23 and those louvers. I gotta take care of them as it drives me nuts to even look at the dam thing in such piss poor condition. Good news is I bet the dam thing fires right up and cuts wood just perfect so no rush but I’ll be darned if I leave them.

Oh then I had two electricians over last week. I’m being told they ran some numbers concerning load and sq ft of my house and I’ll need a electrical upgrade to pass inspection. If I do that I’m gonna go underground with my service as right now it goes right over my driveway. Not to mention coda saiz it has to be raised and they will mount it to my new roof and no chance in hell anyone is drilling anything into my brand new roof.

So you know I need the machines level but I gotta say uncle someplace.


Hah! The bolts are not scaring me. I'm just thinking that with that kind of weight and the fact that no matter how much mass you have, there will still be "some" level of vibration when the machine is running, that "wider shoes" will provide a more stable interface with the floor than four tiny bolt heads merely by an increase in friction. :) Alternative to buying...weld some feet onto the end of some bolts.

I would have thought you might be afeared of the aesthetics of such a massive machine sitting on some tiny bolt heads. LOL (JK!)

[Jim Becker]

It would be easy to switch out the bolts later for "more proper" feet, so it's probably not a first world problem. Sometimes we have to do what we have to do!

You could even commission Brian to make you some "designer feet". ROFLOL!!! You know they'd be pretty pretty... ;)

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh I already thought about having Brian make them.

I tried to buy a couple newer Martin machines form a guy a couple years ago. But he was asking unrealistic prices for them. Like many Martin owners I think he was attached and do not have very realistic view of their value. Well so my local Martin rep told me when I asked their value.

Anyway his whole shop was like a showroom. Almost looked like no work was ever don’t in it. I suspect that may have been the case. He had custom everything for ever darn machine and to a Brian level maybe even exceeding. Sorry Brian but it’s true.

He had these maxing feet on his machines I had never seen and fell in love with. When I asked he said I made them.

I have already thought of asking Brian to make me some and long term I may as I bet he could for a similar price to dunes and still do ok for himself. If he would enjoy the work and could get paid I’d be thrilled.

Soon I will have to get the t75 on leveling feet as I’m gonna be able to bring electricity to it soon.i have been procrastinating.

Oh and that dam lathe. It will probably sit in the corner lol. Nah I’ll just put it together and make a baseball bat to smash my Felder machines into small pieces with to make it easier to get em outa my darn shop.

Ok now I’m just being a snob and jerk.


It would be easy to switch out the bolts later for "more proper" feet, so it's probably not a first world problem. Sometimes we have to do what we have to do!

You could even commission Brian to make you some "designer feet". ROFLOL!!! You know they'd be pretty pretty... ;)

[Patrick Walsh]

Been thinking as I seem some must think I’m nuts doing all this.

This song keeps coming back to me so I thought I’d share.

It’s one of my favorites. Fell in love the first time I heard it around 19. Changed my whole approach to life.

Listen to the song, it’s a good one, very good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZbRau436ww

If nothing else it will gain you some perspective to my thinking around not only all this machine crap but just how I live my life in general.

[David Kumm]

Patrick, my T21 has 4 starters in the box. One was a little funky so I cleaned up the contacts but also found a spare on ebay. You may want to watch for one that matches yours as I can't see you mixing starters in the enclosure. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

I'd soak the fence with PB Blaster and let it sit. Those knobs should turn very easily. Then again may be loaded up with dust and crap which may need to pull apart and clean properly.

As for the bolts, I'm with Jim..... don't like the small bolt head as the only contact point. Probably make the machine much too easy to move about a bit on concrete. I went a different direction altogether though. Instead of pricey levelers, I just mounted mine on hardwood runners. They distribute the weight nicely while also making the machine a MUCH better height to work with for me. Oh and of course it puts them at a height I can get my pallet jack under them and move when needed. Even with 2400 sf I'm always just short of having enough room:(

[Darcy Warner]

Rubber pads would be better than those bolts.

The only machines I level are my moulders and big planers.
Buying levers for a 13k pound planer isn't the cheapest thing.

Most moulders have built in leveling bolts and pads, but they are threaded in the machine base.

When I leveled my big hendey lathe, hendey recommended wood wedges and steel shims.

Most manufacturers recommended leveling and then grouting in place.

The reality is, it's just a shaper, as long as it doesn't teeter around it makes little difference. also most large machines have 3 points of contact.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks guys I appreciate everyone chiming I’m on these bits and pieces. Most anything you figure out if you just dive in and get your hands dirty.

Ultimately that’s what I just finished doing. The fence I felt should move around fairly easy but it wasn’t. The fact is when I picked it up it was sitting in a infested garage fir the most part on the banks of the saint Lawrence River. It also had been purchased at auction by the seller. I found links to the suction with pictures and the shop it came out of was grim looking.

So has soaked the fences in on blaster overnight and to no avail. So I turned them up on end removed the knurled knobs and filled the cavity with on blaster while I did other work. Ultimately I had to carefully use a rag and pliers to gently free them. All is good now but I’ll have to remember to work them back and forth once a day until they are good to go again. I fed them some oil from the oil gun for my jointer.

I went through the rest of the machine with a nylon and brass brush vacuumed and compressed air.

I did so as I have found that if you do you often find a loose nut bolt or wire. I found all of the above..I took care of all that and oh got the rings free also.

I’ll have to work those daily also till they just like to turn. Without the tenon table I have no need other than I raised I can run stock depending on the diagonal and get longer lengths..

Pics later gotta grocery shop and clean now..

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh leveling feet that’s right. I want them so I can stager heights of my machines fir indeed and outfeed purposes.

Plus under my saw it’s just that bad. And yup I want everything looking neat and tidy. It’s half the fun for me. I’m man enough to admit it

[Patrick Walsh]

Couldn’t help but get this song stuck in my head all afternoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEe_eraFWWs

I got all up in der today. I thought I had done a decent job cleaning her underside at my uncles shop but I was in rush so,o didn’t do my best work. Today I got in her with a brass and nylon wire brush and some compressed air. She is as clean as she needs to be to work and maintain good working posture long term. Everything operates smooth as buttah now.

I found a few wires coming loose from their connection points or seals or whatever they are called. I repaired them. In the process I had to open up all the electrical boxes. I was able to blow them all out. All the wiring is in great shape, looks new. I gave the exposed wires the Halcomb treatment and scrubbed the pitch and grime off them.

I found one broken tooth on one cog.

427157

I worked the throat rings free. Dam Otto you do things right.

427158

Machine is very very clean and overall in great condition.

427159

I’m not sure what this does. Is it a belt guide or a stop of sorts. The bolts that held it on were loose and it was diving into the belt and fraying it. It’s connected to a box with a actuator or something, I don’t know the right term. Whatever the case it does pivot back and forth controlled by some electrical function. Seems odd to me as it can’t be a break wouldn’t that fry the belt?

427160

I had seen things like this on my t75. Usually they had oil lines going through them. This one adjust though on threads. It had nothing through the hole in the end. Anyone know what it does or goes to?

427161

[Patrick Walsh]

So the throat plates now swivel with the fence. And fence micro adjustments work. I realized today that although I don’t need the fence to swivel as I don’t have the tenon table it does make it possible to run stock on the diagonal and open up positioning of the machine in my shop.

427162

427163

Look at all that junk up in that trunk. That’s some clean rump now. Not T75 clean but fully functional clean.

427164

427165

427166

Oh and I got the warning label off the front that was half falling off.

427167

Then I spent a hour on Mccmaster Carr hunting out the proper fasters to replace some nonsensical replacements previously.

I got a list going.

JB weld the hood.

Make a hood cover out of metal.

Make the louvers or have them made.

Thread one of those front handles as one is stripped. Thinking a threaded insert?

Make some fences or feces both with suffice for now.

Save for aigner fences feces both the same to me and a fancy powerfeed.

[Günter VögelBerg]

Make some feces for now.


Fences, maybe?

[Patrick Walsh]

Are you thinking “fences maybe” like asking if I’m considering no fences.

My statement was make wood fences for now while I save to purchase the aigner.

I may just wait to be honest as I won’t use the machine anytime soon being I’ll be working like 70hr weeks again through June for my 9-5 and I have a shaper there.




Fences, maybe?

[Günter VögelBerg]

Are you thinking “fences maybe” like asking if I’m considering no fences.

My statement was make wood fences for now while I save to purchase the aigner.

I may just wait to be honest as I won’t use the machine anytime soon being I’ll be working like 70hr weeks again through June for my 9-5 and I have a shaper there.

I was wondering if you need some fiber.

Little bit of levity is all.

[Patrick Walsh]

Ah I spelt feces.

Clever ;)

I get it now.

I love a good potty joke.


I was wondering if you need some fiber.

Little bit of levity is all.

[Darcy Warner]

Just have a welding/fab shop make some covers, they could roll the edges and put louvers in them. Be better than plastic.

I just add 1" thick wood faces, get them close and run it over the jointer. Presto!

[Patrick Walsh]

I may just buy a tig welder and and learn. I think gig is what I want for aluminum. Sure google could tech me. Then I’d have it and I’d have another skill to master.

I was thinking I could get some plate stock like 1/2 and cut the center out to make a frame. Then take a router to clean the edges. Then get thinner stock for the louvers and bend them on the brake at work. Not sure aluminum would bend though. If not my plan is foiled. Then tack them on form the back side and I’m done.

If steel I could bend the louvers on the break. But then I’m making the frames from steel. Guess I could get setup for steel but I figured I could work aluminum with Woodworking tools.

Fence plates yeah. I’ve made a dozen pair out of wood at this point. They work perfect. And you can screw stuff to them throw them in the trash when they are screwed. But I’ve wanted those dam aigner fence plates for years. It’s time to just get a pair. Worst case I decide I don’t like them and I sell them at a loss of a few hundred bucks worst case.


Just have a welding/fab shop make some covers, they could roll the edges and put louvers in them. Be better than plastic.

I just add 1" thick wood faces, get them close and run it over the jointer. Presto!

[peter gagliardi]

Once you have the Aigner plates, you will pretty much forget all about the wood faces.
I did that for years..... But wood wears, and moves with seasonal change, so you really have to check them all the time with a good 3' straightedge- way more than I like to.
Aluminum plates stay good for many, many years. They are anodized, so you do not even have to think about it until you see bare aluminum.
My first T26 which I got in 2004 is just starting to show the thinness of the anodized coating.
They are dead straight, all the time, and the finger casettes are removable so you can install a wood faced fence when you might want a cutter to "break through" for zero clearance. Also, the fingers are handy for giving a continuous bearing surface above or below the cut when necessary- provided you have enough cutterhead diameter.
If you get the plates, it would be very,very beneficial to rig up a pair of digital read outs- could be a pair of cheap calipers even, that are resettable to zero out in any place.
Those plates make working in .001" easily achievable.
But, once you go digital on one machine, suddenly everything else with analog or scales is troublesome.....

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m kinda working backward here with the digital everything.

When I stated building a shop I was dead set on digital readout on everything. I do find it incredibly helpful, I can’t argue that. But where I fit in economically with Felder or Scm machines left me disappointed in everything else about the machine.

For me these old machines started as a result of my frustration with new Italian machines. Those dam Italian machines and the inherent issues with them taught me a lot about machines In general. The old machines getting back to their glory the same again.

I’ll dump the electronics anyway for a well built machine as my brain still works. Don’t get me wrong if I could afford a shop full of $85 k machines I’d buy them but this is where I fit in. For me production just is not a consideration and I honestly fi t want it to ever be a consideration.

I will buy those aigner fences. And the Wegomatic with smart stand. Then I’ll wait, and wait and wait to find a t23 tenon table and do it all over again.


Once you have the Aigner plates, you will pretty much forget all about the wood faces.
I did that for years..... But wood wears, and moves with seasonal change, so you really have to check them all the time with a good 3' straightedge- way more than I like to.
Aluminum plates stay good for many, many years. They are anodized, so you do not even have to think about it until you see bare aluminum.
My first T26 which I got in 2004 is just starting to show the thinness of the anodized coating.
They are dead straight, all the time, and the finger casettes are removable so you can install a wood faced fence when you might want a cutter to "break through" for zero clearance. Also, the fingers are handy for giving a continuous bearing surface above or below the cut when necessary- provided you have enough cutterhead diameter.
If you get the plates, it would be very,very beneficial to rig up a pair of digital read outs- could be a pair of cheap calipers even, that are resettable to zero out in any place.
Those plates make working in .001" easily achievable.
But, once you go digital on one machine, suddenly everything else with analog or scales is troublesome.....

[Jeff Duncan]

OK.... I'm probably completely wrong here, and this will end up being a totally crap idea.... but I think that the little lever next to your belt may simply be a position indicator? I had a younger T-21 for a while and I think it may possibly have had that same thing. It also IIRC had lights to reflect which speed was being used. Then again my memory is crap, its been a long day, and I probably just breathed too much dust and am hallucinating:confused:

[Patrick Walsh]

Jeff,

Your a smart guy. That’s exactly what it is.

The seller contacted me last night to answer my question.

Based on where you put the belt it articulates around and lights up the corresponding light for the spindle speed.

These old machines are great, even better at the people whom are also smitten by them and willing to share.

Thanks for taking the time to chime in.


OK.... I'm probably completely wrong here, and this will end up being a totally crap idea.... but I think that the little lever next to your belt may simply be a position indicator? I had a younger T-21 for a while and I think it may possibly have had that same thing. It also IIRC had lights to reflect which speed was being used. Then again my memory is crap, its been a long day, and I probably just breathed too much dust and am hallucinating:confused:

[David Kumm]

My T21 is the same. Let me know what belt yours runs and I'll see if that is the same. I think I have extras. The bulb for the speed lights are odd and I 've never been able to find replacements for them. Can you tell me what bulbs are in yours? Thanks, Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Sounds good and no problem.

Just give me a few. Gotta take the dog out.


My T21 is the same. Let me know what belt yours runs and I'll see if that is the same. I think I have extras. The bulb for the speed lights are odd and I 've never been able to find replacements for them. Can you tell me what bulbs are in yours? Thanks, Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Here you go Dave. I think that saiz, 24 V 2

427255


427256

What’s the story with the belts. Are they hard to get?

[Darcy Warner]

I have bought those at my local electrical supply house.

Not the belts. Lol

[Patrick Walsh]

I actually need the female threaded piece that goes in the backside of the bulb fixture. It’s round and threaded. Anyone know what term to google to try and find one. I could just use electrical tape but I’d rather not.

[Tom M King]

base, lampholder, or receptacle, but put "bulb" in front of those numbers for the search.

[Patrick Walsh]

Bottom one has the ring. The top one it’s missing. I have no idea what they are called. As for size and thread lost again. Guess I could take it off and to the store hardware store and use a nut to find the size. Not sure if that will work or if electrical fittings are the same as nuts and bolts. My guess is it’s a euro thread regardless..


427258



base, lampholder, or receptacle, but put "bulb" in front of those numbers for the search.

[Patrick Walsh]

A couple small things.

Freaking Mccmaster...

427410

Trying to stay motivated to square all the functional stuff away on this machine. I’m pretty all or nothing black and white and tbh it’s really hard for me to not just rip this machine to pieces. I need to wait till I at least have another shaper.

Someone had replaced the screws on the arbor lock for and spindle tilt lock functions. Sadly they had kinda forced in the wrong size thread bolt. Not to mention at some point they had be taped with imperial threads. I cleaned them up “re tapped” them and replaced the bolts. I couldn’t find a partially threaded screw in the exact size. I was able to find longer ones so I cut them to size.

427407

It’s little things or repairs like this on used machines that drive me bonkers. Just slow down and do it right. I know it’s about getting back to work. I run into this at work at least once a week.

The there was a stud or spindle missing used as a stop for the arbor tilt. The machine tilts form -5 to 45%. Take the spindle out and you get -5, in and you can adjust a set screw on the cog of the arbor tilt to stop it at 90%.

Originally I contacted Brian to make this. I had exact specs as to the exact size of this rod and ball as the seller has tow more of these machines and these rods. Brian was kind enough to forward me a couple Mccmaster part numbers so I could deal with it myself. Guy is classy.

427408

I’ll scotch brite out those burn marks don’t you all worry ;)



427409

I got a quote for a service upgrade for the 100 amp service. $3300 for the service upgrade only. Then to hook up the phase perfect and run a outlet to three machines another $2200.

Looks like I’ll be doing the work myself. I’m not excited about it as I’d like the new panel. But it’s just not in the cards at the moment. Code saiz the wire coming off the pole in front of my house is to low. So they gotta out a riser block pole in my brand new roof. No dice, no way no how. Nobody is drilling anything into my brand new roof and not some dope contractor. I can burry the cable underground in conduit and have planned to for some time. But that’s a 18”x 20’ trench and a weekend with a rented mini excavator. My whole neighborhood is ledge. I have been through this before doing hardscape, planting trees and putting up a fence. It will be no easy project.

This shop crap is just a endless black hole of spending.

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice work, Patrick!

[Patrick Walsh]

I cut the end of the shoulder bolt you suggested on the metal bandsaw at work.

More like nice work bring ;)

Thanks again.


Nice work, Patrick!

[Patrick Walsh]

Ok so a list of updates and quite a few hours screwing around.

As a result I have determined the machine needs new motor bearings. The oil system for the quill is not working. And the speed indicator lights don’t work.

As a result I have quite a long list of things to tend to before this machine is ready for work. No big deal as I fully knew when I purchased the machine this all could very well be the case. Plus I like having something like this to do. Plus we will probably all get locked in our houses and I’ll have plenty of time.

So begins the ordering from Mccmaster.

One of the first things I had to do was get my new phase converter wired. That took most of the week and a little of last weekend a couple hours here and a couple hours there. I’m sure you all have seen my electrical thread so I’ll leave it at that.

I started today by getting bringing the killing process of some ash to make the fence plates. I also made a wooden dust cover for the fence that will only be used as a template to make one out of aluminum. I know most will say it’s fully functional and nice enough. I can’t stand a machine that’s a hodge podge of parts and half assed fixes.

428037

428039

The fence dust port has a major crack in the aluminum cast. Form what I can by others whom own this machine this is very common. Now having the machine I can see why. The port is held on by a carnage bolt and wing nut. It goes through a hole in the fence proper but slides into a slot on the dust port only. As a result when you move the fence around the dust port comes loose very easy and you’d have to be stupid careful for it to not end up on the floor. In 40 years of use I’m sure it has hit the floor more than once hence the crack.

As a result I initially thought some grip tape like on a skateboard would provide enough friction to keep it snug when the carriage bolt and wing nut are tightened. I tried sand paper folded over on itself and it worked great. I almost ordered grip tape before remembering this sticky back felt I ordered for the t75. It worked perfect the hood no longer moves unless loosened.

The bubble maple is kinda cool but I’ll still make one out of metal. The hinges where mangled so I took them off and flattened them back out. I’m half tempted to replace them as the pins holding them together are nails. But other than the nails they are original to the machine so I’ll keep them and replace the rails with who knows what but not dam nails.

I then got into putting the aigner support rails on for extension tables. I know it looks like I’m screwed I fed wise with my saw in the way. Both will get height adjustable feet and I’ll stagger the height of all my machines.

428038

Then spent some time getting my shop back in some kinda sane order. I like a tidy shop.

I purchased this lift table to help moving all these heavy machines in and out. You see that giant lvl in the background and that had been my go to aid in moving machines thus far. The issue is storing it. It ultimately get lagged to the wall then brackets hung on it to become a lumber rack. The problem with that is obveous in that whenever you need it you gotta move the whole dam shop. I figured this giant 3x6 lift table also just be in the way. I convinced myself it would be at least another work surface. Then I realized it will be the perfect place to sticker my stock vrs always steeling a corner of my bench or miter station.

It looks tight where it is but it’s actually very handy right there next to the combo machine.

428040

I then had the brilliant idea after visiting Brian’s shop to kitty corner my bandsaw. It does not look like it but the height clears that of my bench. I have 160” of in and outfeed the way it is now.

428041

428042

The view from over where the giant lathe will go looking back. Honestly compared to like four months ago when I had that wall up it feels like I have so much space. Now having been at building this shop for at least 5-6 years I really understand work flow and machine placement much better. I also understand what machine I need and don’t need much much more.

428043

And the project machine at least looking like it’s ready to work. It’s not!

428038

So now I gotta motivate to drop the motor and pull apart the Oiler. I’m not very excited actually as I’ll just be making a mess of what see,s to be for the moment a shop ready to work in again. The reality is I gotta get that lathe home this coming week and get that put back together wired and running. I’m sure it will also present at least a few issue. Fact is it will be a while yet before I get this all sorted. And by them hopefully the sky won’t have fallen and I’ll find a sliding table t23 and maybe even bring my t54 home. One step at a time as this all is a huge amount of time financial resources all be it a itty bitty whittle shop.

[Jim Becker]

Looks like you have adequate spacing to move around in there and work with material no problem.

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick, some of your previous questions. For bolt levelers we use these on the Soukup machines. I think McMaster has something similar.

428055428056

For smaller machines like the T23 and 17 I prefer wood legs that I can slip my narrow pallet jack between.

428058

Does your 23 have the copper coils like this at the pump? Mine were missing and copied what Matt’s had.

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe,

I’m onto the the Mccmaster legs. Sadly Brian found me a $89 a piece option I just have to have. and you know I need like eight total with the two machines. So sadly they wait.

I also need adjustable as my floors are that wack. As it is now on the bolts I can easily get my low profile narrow for pallet jack under it. I thought about copying your wood feet but in plastic as I really really like them. But you know to get it perfectly level I’d have to build them different heights to level the machine. If I had a disk or edge sander it would be 123 no problem but I don’t.

No mine does not have a coil and the tank that hold the oil has a large aluminum block around it.

Let’s see if I can find a picture.

428060

It’s not circulating oil at all. I took the belt off and ran the machine for almost a hour today and not a single drip. I have no idea what it could be and am just praying that when I pull it apart I find a clog in a line or something obveous and easy to resolve.

If not with the motor bearings and this I could really have gotten myself into something. If I can’t figure it out I can always do the greased bearing swap but I really want the oil bath and honestly with everything going on would ot be able to afford to tend to the isssue for god knows how long.

It’s all good though as I’m totally committed to this machine even if it’s a long haul.


Patrick, some of your previous questions. For bolt levelers we use these on the Soukup machines. I think McMaster has something similar.

428055428056

For smaller machines like the T23 and 17 I prefer wood legs that I can slip my narrow pallet jack between.

428058

Does your 23 have the copper coils like this at the pump? Mine were missing and copied what Matt’s had.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah it’s kinda crazy.

I was so scared coming from my old festool sawstop centric shop that I was in for it with these big machines. But you know not to pay myself on the back but I think I have a real knack for shop layout. I did it for my old employer and everyone loved it when I was done. And my new employer has already expressed that he was reluctant regarding my vision for the gomad and a place for it and it being the right choice but that now in use he sees that I was seeing something he just couldn’t.

I’m really really excited for this shop. A few more small bits and pieces and this is pretty much my dream shop minus a spry booth and a full metal shop lol..

For a old retired or young unemployed guy puttering around this is gonna be awesome.

When the master bedroom are done and exterior of te house finished my first project is gonna be the bonnet top high boy I have been dreaming about making since I started fine Woodworking. I might even dare make it a Binet top secretary. I already have the stock ready to go so nothing to stop me but all this other crap I have started.


Looks like you have adequate spacing to move around in there and work with material no problem.

[Jim Becker]

Those will be very fine projects to look forward to!

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick,
curious if there is a coil inside the aluminum block? The purpose of the copper coil is still a mystery to me. Check voltage at the pump to see if you are getting 24 volts dc. Then check the rectifier to see if it is putting out. If not try using a drill battery to power the pump.




Joe,

I’m onto the the Mccmaster legs. Sadly Brian found me a $89 a piece option I just have to have. and you know I need like eight total with the two machines. So sadly they wait.

I also need adjustable as my floors are that wack. As it is now on the bolts I can easily get my low profile narrow for pallet jack under it. I thought about copying your wood feet but in plastic as I really really like them. But you know to get it perfectly level I’d have to build them different heights to level the machine. If I had a disk or edge sander it would be 123 no problem but I don’t.

No mine does not have a coil and the tank that hold the oil has a large aluminum block around it.

Let’s see if I can find a picture.

428060

It’s not circulating oil at all. I took the belt off and ran the machine for almost a hour today and not a single drip. I have no idea what it could be and am just praying that when I pull it apart I find a clog in a line or something obveous and easy to resolve.

If not with the motor bearings and this I could really have gotten myself into something. If I can’t figure it out I can always do the greased bearing swap but I really want the oil bath and honestly with everything going on would ot be able to afford to tend to the isssue for god knows how long.

It’s all good though as I’m totally committed to this machine even if it’s a long haul.

[Jared Sankovich]

Patrick,
curious if there is a coil inside the aluminum block? The purpose of the copper coil is still a mystery to me. Check voltage at the pump to see if you are getting 24 volts dc. Then check the rectifier to see if it is putting out. If not try using a drill battery to power the pump.

The only thing that makes sense was an attempt at using the coil as a cooler, though very poorly executed if that was the reason.

[Joe Calhoon]

I’ve thought about that also Jared but the return oil line is not even warm. Also thought it might be to slow the drip down but when I first had the machine the coil was gone and the drip the same. One drip every few seconds. Correct according to the manual.

[Malcolm McLeod]

.... I can bury the cable underground in conduit and have planned to for some time. But that’s a 18”x 20’ trench and a weekend with a rented mini excavator..

Scanning back thru and ^^this^^ caught my eye. You didn't indicate if this is wide or deep, but here electrical must be minimum of 4 feet below grade. Utility company will let you dig your own trench, but they lay the cable to their meter and the depth has to be right. DAMHIKT.

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe will do,

Matt actually called late last night, or rather texted and suggested a fuse also.

Been a long long crazy day.

It looks like I’ll be working at home starting tomorrow rather Wednesday after I get the giant pile of red oak hauled into my shop.

Per chance anyone know exactly what size bearings the motor in my shaper take. I’d like to get them ordered before everything close and I can’t get for god knows how long. I need my shaper working like yesterday now working from home.

Also if anyone with a comatic smart powerfeeder on the smart stand “and a steff feeder” on their standard stand could check the bolt pattern on the base for me and let me know if they are the same or close enough I can get at least three of the same bolts I’d appreciate it.

Sadly I may have to mount my steff on the machine and it’s wrecking my head to think I’ll just replace it with a comatic and then have three sets of holes in the table total as it all ready has been drilled once. I’m sure those holes fit nothing as it had a wicked old feeder on it.


Patrick,
curious if there is a coil inside the aluminum block? The purpose of the copper coil is still a mystery to me. Check voltage at the pump to see if you are getting 24 volts dc. Then check the rectifier to see if it is putting out. If not try using a drill battery to power the pump.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah code here saiz the electricians have to pull the permit for the trench “i think” I know the electrician I was gonna use said I could dig the trench under their permit.

And yes 18” deep is code in conduit but yes the utility company has to pull the wire and then your electrical makes the connection or so I believe?



.
Scanning back thru and ^^this^^ caught my eye. You didn't indicate if this is wide or deep, but here electrical must be minimum of 4 feet below grade. Utility company will let you dig your own trench, but they lay the cable to their meter and the depth has to be right. DAMHIKT.

[Jim Becker]

I dug the trench for my shop's power upgrade back in 2005 for the electrician as an alternative to him renting a ditching machine. That was one day after I purchased my small Kubota with the backhoe...it was an...experience. Definitely "on the job training"!!

[Patrick Walsh]

Son of a bad word for a mother.

You have Kubota!

God dam now I’m really jealous!

I’ve been thinking about buying a forklift and parking it in the driveway. I’d love a skid steer with forks on tracks but I can’t afford it. But many a kubota you my hero. Man crush major..


I dug the trench for my shop's power upgrade back in 2005 for the electrician as an alternative to him renting a ditching machine. That was one day after I purchased my small Kubota with the backhoe...it was an...experience. Definitely "on the job training"!!

[Jeff Bartley]

Patrick,
Per the feeder: could you just mount it to a stout block of wood and clamp it to the shape temporarily?

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm,

Probably that’s a great suggestion.

And maybe I’ve even seen a pic here or there like that or maybe it was just a riser block.

Non the less I’ll have to explore that. I gotta run on edge up against the fence for miter locks. Should be fine I bet? I’d love to just buy the comatic but I don’t have $2500 right now to be parting with considering everything. Plus I wonder when it will become hard to get delivers of stuff like this.

My guess is soon?’


Patrick,
Per the feeder: could you just mount it to a stout block of wood and clamp it to the shape temporarily?

[mreza Salav]

For powerfeeder: I use mine on my router table too, have a 3/8"x8"x16" piece of sheet metal that I bolt the feeder to and then clamp that piece to the router table using 4 parallel jaw clamps. You can do the same, or if you don't want to re-drill your top, bolt a piece in the existing hols and tap/bolt the feeder to it.

[Jim Becker]

Son of a bad word for a mother.

You have Kubota!

God dam now I’m really jealous!

I’ve been thinking about buying a forklift and parking it in the driveway. I’d love a skid steer with forks on tracks but I can’t afford it. But many a kubota you my hero. Man crush major..

Dude, that "big orange power tool" has paid for itself a few times over, helping to manage our not-quite four acres including a lot of landscaping work, being my helper when cutting up fallen trees, clearing the 400' of driveway when there is an increasingly rare instance of snow, loading/unloading, carrying my dust collector bin to "the pile", etc. It's one of only two vehicles I generally "self-maintain", too...(mower is the other). I do not work on our SUVs other than checking tire pressure, etc.

Since I mow with a ZTR, the backhoe stays on the machine pretty much full time so when it's not digging, it's providing 700 lbs of weight on the back to balance whatever is in the front or to improve traction. I will note, however, that my unit (BX-22) doesn't have the lifting capacity to handle tools like you covet...my limit is about 450 lbs or so. I'd have to go to a larger machine to get more lift and that's not going to happen in this lifetime.

[Jeff Duncan]

I can get you the bearing info for my T-21..... unfortunately I have no idea if your T-23 uses the same:confused:. I'll check them out tomorrow.

[Patrick Walsh]

I still have envy but I gotta be able to move big machines lol.

I have a bunch of poured concrete walkway I gotta remove. It would be 123 with the right machine and a dumpster that can take that kind of debris. Instead I’ll be out there with a freaking jack hammer or rock breaker or something.


Dude, that "big orange power tool" has paid for itself a few times over, helping to manage our not-quite four acres including a lot of landscaping work, being my helper when cutting up fallen trees, clearing the 400' of driveway when there is an increasingly rare instance of snow, loading/unloading, carrying my dust collector bin to "the pile", etc. It's one of only two vehicles I generally "self-maintain", too...(mower is the other). I do not work on our SUVs other than checking tire pressure, etc.

Since I mow with a ZTR, the backhoe stays on the machine pretty much full time so when it's not digging, it's providing 700 lbs of weight on the back to balance whatever is in the front or to improve traction. I will note, however, that my unit (BX-22) doesn't have the lifting capacity to handle tools like you covet...my limit is about 450 lbs or so. I'd have to go to a larger machine to get more lift and that's not going to happen in this lifetime.

[Patrick Walsh]

It’s ok not worth taking the risk of ordering the wrong ones.

I’ll crack it open sometime later this week. The seller was nice enough to walk me through the machine tonight with a voltage meter to figure out why My oil pump is not working and the lights for spindle speed.

So far it was wired for 208.

And a fuse was blown that controls the dc pump and lights.

Fuse in the mail. I’ll check everything then rip the motor out.

Gotta get the thing running though as I’m officially working from home. My van is full of red oak.


I can get you the bearing info for my T-21..... unfortunately I have no idea if your T-23 uses the same:confused:. I'll check them out tomorrow.

[Mark e Kessler]

I had a “big green power tool” and foolishly sold it, no backhoe but 500lb of concrete required for my steep property, man do i miss having a bucket and forks, but I don’t miss plowing the 8’-10’ of snow we get here in the valley with the bucket, i much prefer the 48” blower on the front of my garden tractor...



Dude, that "big orange power tool" has paid for itself a few times over, helping to manage our not-quite four acres including a lot of landscaping work, being my helper when cutting up fallen trees, clearing the 400' of driveway when there is an increasingly rare instance of snow, loading/unloading, carrying my dust collector bin to "the pile", etc. It's one of only two vehicles I generally "self-maintain", too...(mower is the other). I do not work on our SUVs other than checking tire pressure, etc.

Since I mow with a ZTR, the backhoe stays on the machine pretty much full time so when it's not digging, it's providing 700 lbs of weight on the back to balance whatever is in the front or to improve traction. I will note, however, that my unit (BX-22) doesn't have the lifting capacity to handle tools like you covet...my limit is about 450 lbs or so. I'd have to go to a larger machine to get more lift and that's not going to happen in this lifetime.

[Jim Becker]

I still have envy but I gotta be able to move big machines lol.

I have a bunch of poured concrete walkway I gotta remove. It would be 123 with the right machine and a dumpster that can take that kind of debris. Instead I’ll be out there with a freaking jack hammer or rock breaker or something.

Fortunately, one can rent all kinds of machinery and that's a good way to get heavy work done without breaking your back as long as you can operate said machine safely and effectively in the available space. If I had to do a big job that my little friend isn't capable of, that's what I'd do. So far, I've been lucky enough not to need to do that. I'm actually about to buy skidding tongs so I can drag all the "worthy" dead ash logs to one place so I can get them milled on-site sometime this summer or fall. I can pull them pretty easily even though they are way too heavy to lift.

[Patrick Walsh]

Ok so where dis I leave off.

The pump is official shot. To determine such was major task for a guy who knows nothing about electrify. Thankfully I had the help via phone of someone who knows quite a bit.

I won’t get all into it but trust me the pump was crap and not able to be repaired.

429366

This is the backside of the oil Rez and the crap pump bellow. It’s piston diaphragm pump 24vdc. Manufacture is long gone and nothing to be sourced like it other than fuel pumps that can’t pump oil. The you gotta match whatever flow rate this was and god only knows.

I determined people think they know the flow rate of the oil to the bearings. But Honestly after tearing this whole thing apart it clear to me “people know the return rate” not eh delivery rate. As the lines are clearly restricted and routed in a manner very purposefully to deliver and return a very specific amount of oil as the machine can not handle any amounts of oil. Not even close. It can handle a very small amount of oil before it comes leaking out the bottom of the quill at the spindle.

Go ahead ask me how I know.

[Patrick Walsh]

The motor bearings screamed like fox killing a cat.

I knew that had to be replaced.

I figured no better time than now as the spindle bearings would also need to be replaced as it became clear to me quickly this oil delivery system had not worked in many moons. I wasn’t gonna do any amount of work to only find out I had to take it all apart to fix something I was to lazy or cheep to fix the Forest time.

429367

429368

429369

This motor is very heavy as the machine is two speeds.

[Patrick Walsh]

Then the quill.

One thing nice ain’t Martin is they don’t hang the quill off the tables. As a result the motor mounts on this machine are bolted to the bottom of the quill. As a result to take out the quill the more has to be out and the mounts and everything associated fully taken apart. It’s no big deal really bit it does mean i took the whole machine apart.

Considering I consider it a good thing as I have fully gone over every last nit and blot and made any adjustments to needed to the spindle lock, break, tilt/rise manual oil lines you name it. It’s all done and like new. The only thing not new at this point is the paint.

429370

429371

Time to take the quill out. I stole this stick method from Joe Calhoon. Thanks to joe for his thread as it saved my ass on this project. A few other people I had to call on also helped me out in a big way and I owe them all many thanks.

429372

429373

Quill has a top and bottom cap that bolt on to capture the spindle and it’s bearings. It’s totally sequenced and a real riddle to get apart. I’ll never forget how moving forward as it was that tricky bit also that simple. I love Martin for that. Keep it simple stupid seems to be how Martin once approached their machines. But imop they also achieved a much higher degree of engineering when it comes to actually using the machines and then their lastability.

A couple pulling it apart. I won’t get it to it to much but if anyone every meds help feel free to hint me down and I’m more than happy to help. Again I have had so many kind people help me through this project. Same on the t75..

429374

And clean waiting on bearings for it and the motor. Very very expensive fancy bearings at that. I like your style Martin even if I gotta pay for it.

429375

[Patrick Walsh]

Next came the hard part. To this point I just knew the oil delivery system didn’t work and wasn’t going to work and that I was gonna have to figure out what was next.

I considered a greased bearing retrofit kit form Martin. The kit is $7k delivered a freer tax and shipping but on a shelf in Germany. With this whole corona thing I didn’t have time to wait nor was I willing to risk it not showing up. I would had gone this route regardless of the $$$ as I was in that big a panic about not working and needing to. Don’t let this make anyone think I was ok with giving up my oil drip bearings as that’s why I purchased the machine. I wasn’t but I had struck a deal with my boss to work from home considering the corona and I wasn’t going back to work. And he would lost his shit after the effort it took to get everything I would need back to my shop then back to his again just to get back to work.

I tried over and over to replace the 24vdc piston diaphragm pump. I was finally able to get one bit after many hang ups and at such a point I had already sourced another solution in my panicked state. I also liked this solution more so the expensive custom piston diaphragm pump “non returnable” sits in my “Martin drawer” in ,y toolbox with other random bits and pieces.

After much searching, dead end anger dead end after dead end. I won’t even get it to how many hours I spent online and on the phone. The number of people I talked to so forth and so on. Seriously I wanted to kill myself and I half mean it. The whole thing was sucking up so much time and the $$ became and continues to be obscene!

Finally I stumbled into a gentleman just out in Springfield mass. They are a lubrications company that mostly seems to serve municipalities. He went in his back room out of the kindness of his heart and came back with a solution. He told me that Hines.ty he didn’t even know he had what he was gonna sell me. That it was something a vendor had left behind with as maple board of it all setup running but that he had not sold any of the product as he was just not familiar enough with it to del it. Bit for my application he thought it might work and it would give him a good opportunity to get hands on acquainted with the product and hence make it easier for him to sell.

So a huge thanks to this guy as I was pretty much almost screwed and gonna have to build a manual gravity fed drip system. I would a been passed off enough to to go push this machine off a dam bridge at such a point so thank god I kept chasing a answer.

Honestly 99.9% of people woulda quite at like hour 40 of hunting out not only a solution but what exactly was wrong. I’m gonna hold close to my chest the hours I have into this at this point.

So the oil.

First we had to determine the appropriate weight oil as Martin won’t tell you. They just say “speacial” Martin oil. Well that oil is also in Germany and can only travel to the USA via a boat.

So goodbye Martin oil and hello Velocite #6. Again many thanks to those whom took the time to help me figure this out.


Crap the photos are in my phone. I’ll be right back gots do some downloading to finish.

429376

[Patrick Walsh]

Then jumping back a bit.

This picture represents everything needed “2k” but the dam piston diaphragm pump to rebuild the original system per martins design.

429377

The piston diaphragm pump would literally show up the day after I had another solution in my hands paid in full.

Stupid little bleeping pump..

429378

Everything in that first picture is sitting waiting to be returned to McMaster.

Then the solution I opted for. In the end the new system is a pneumatic piston pump that delivers both air and oil to the quill and bearings. The thought “and this is how they do this in modern oil drip/mist systems” is with both air and oil. Both travel though one line “a line within a line” the air cools the oil, the air cleans the oil and the air can if you want depending on setup turn the oil from a drip into a mist.

The whole thing is fully adjustable. The volume of oil delivered can be controlled at the piston pump. The same with regards to the rate of oil delivery. The air can be turned on or off from nothing “it doesn’t need or require it” to a wee bit to full blast.

Pretty nifty but oh boy expense. Well about the same as that other pile of stuff minus the bearings and bearing heater. Oh yeah I purchased a bearing heater as I have replaced enough bearings to know I don’t wanna fight them on this project as I’m already at my wits end.

429380

New Rez and pump.

429381

I mounted it onnthe back of the machine for a number of reasons. Mostly I wanna keep a eye on the oil in the event it gets dirty and needs changing as the old oil was beyond dirty. I found a good half inch of sludge in the bottom of the original Rez backing up the return line to the pump. wha I was thinking when I purchased this machine it seeing it run with own two eyes I don’t know. I fully know better but I did it anyway....

429382

[Patrick Walsh]

Everything feeds and returns to the bottom of the quill. Top hole delivers oil to top bearing via a metal straw u can find back in the quill pictures.

429383

Pump is wired directly into the machine so when you turn the spindle on the oil starts right up. It does so via a transformer that delivers 24v to a 24vdc rectifier. This rectifier also delivers power to the spindle speed lights. I had no idea what any of that meant before all this.

429384


Jumping back, the motor put back together.

429386

[David Kumm]

Here is the oil Joe sent me for the T21. All I can say is it looks like a pretty thin spindle oil. It might be that you have to modify the rating to get the new pump to match the flow with the old so some experimenting might be needed. Dave429387

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks Dave.

I spied that oil out on joes build thread. I also talked directly to Martin a number of times and they also found it. This velocite is also very thin. I have experimented till my brains blew all over my shop.

I’m very happy with the flow rate as of now.

I’m about to get into the final part of this.

Waiting on some pics to upload.


Here is the oil Joe sent me for the T21. All I can say is it looks like a pretty thin spindle oil. It might be that you have to modify the rating to get the new pump to match the flow with the old so some experimenting might be needed. Dave429387

[Patrick Walsh]

Ok forget the pictures it’s late.

So more to come yet this is not quite done. For many it would be as it works but the oil drains into a pan on the floor as apposed to the Rez as it’s fighting gravity.


The return rate is completely dependent on gravity with my new system. As a result the return line needs to go down hill 100% no rise at all in the line to the Rez or the flow/return rate slows and the quill can overfill.

My solution is in the mail in the form of another 24vdc pump and that can run dry full time and is capable of sucking fluid from four feet bellow or above. It is also totally adjustable regarding flow rate but via a relay. I have to wire this relay inline or in front of the pump. Actually I don’t need the relay as I just need the pump to suck all the time and prime the return line as to pull the oil back to the Rez at the rate it is delivered. Another $500 at the problem but after this it’s 100% set to and forget it just use the machines like the original design. I refuse any other solution. I don’t do Mickey mouse or jury rigged.

Other issue I need to address is the air delivery as all I have is a pancake compressor. And for now that’s all I’m gonna have as I’m not dragging a 60-80lb tank into my house with covid. And I don’t do anything half way either. Although I don’t need the capacity of a 60 gallon tank for this it’s what I’ll get. I do want dry dry air so I’ll go 60 gallon and a proper air dryer setup capable of spraying with. I’m doing this so the compressor never cycles creating water. Not that I’ll ever spray in my shop but when I move I’m good to go for that also.

For now I’ll be gong nuts with a bunch of Festo regulators filters and separators. Yup you guessed it another $800!

But you know I’m still doing way better than the greased bearing kit even with a new compressor and air dryer. And not to mention a new machine as I almost just did that and would have if not for covid and job insecurity. That’s was $45-90k. All said I’m gonna have about $6700 into this. Add the aigner fences and new powerfeed and I’m jus around $12k. A Tom of money but not nearly 45K

This machine fully runs at this point and it’s dreamy, like totally utterly dreamy. This was behind a pain in the ass and at the worst time possible but so worth it.

Oh I ordered some hdpe to make the d[grills for the sides.

So I still an knee deep i this thing but it works as I’m soon to have it pretty tricked out minus fresh paint.

Lights, pretty cool. Yeah 9K vroom!

429392

429393

429394

[Ron Selzer]

definitely got to admire your determination on seeing this project thru
no way would I be able to do it , however really like the finished product
Ron

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks Ron,

As for us all I imagine there are a number of things I don’t admire about myself. But my determination is not one of them.

My personality really is as of such I do t do much if I’m not interested “thank god I have a myriad of interest” or it could be flat all or me a real bum. And anything I am interested to do I generally do 110% and tend to excel regardless of what it is I choose to do.

But I have to admit this once pushed me to the very very edge of my limits. I can’t tell you how many times I really had to breath deep and continue acting like a well adjusted adult and instead of flipping out look for the next solution all the while being polite and thankful to those helping me.

But not quite out of the woods but with the problem generally solved I can see now it’s just these challenges are keep me interested and draw me to such projects.

Oh and if I didn’t mention the machine is beyond explanation sweet. And that’s coming from a guy who a few days ago “knew it could be a sweet machine but was thinking “this particular machine is the biggest pile of crap I have ever acquired.

And I sold a machine that pretty much functioned perfectly to buy it. It functioned perfectly but you know it was not like this machine is now just a absolute pleasure to use and like driving a BMW M3 vrs a Kia.

As you can tell by my winded response end take pride in your recognition of my commitment.


definitely got to admire your determination on seeing this project thru
no way would I be able to do it , however really like the finished product
Ron

[Patrick Walsh]

Ok where did I leave off,

I needed or was waiting on a piston diaphragm pump for the return line.

It showed up.

429962

The pump needed a switch that I had already ordered form McMaster Carr. I figured as soon as I got the pump easy peasy I’m done and this is behind me.

Wrong!

When I hooked the switch to the machine via a 24v rectifier stepped down by a transformer then to the pump I got nothing. I did get 24vdc at the inlet to the switch but nothing on the other side. I figured with a voltage meter and it being a switch I should get 24v then nothing then 24v then nothing at the rate I set the switch for and in my case like on off once per second.

I got nothing, it was as if I had not even worked the pump. I’d come to find out later that the switch required a jumper wire and that these switches don’t have voltage to the outlet side as they can also run AC power and you would plug and jump your AC or DC power in in a very specific configuration depending.

My pump worked to the first switch not working a dam, IM ABOUT TO GO THROUGH THE ROOF AT THIS POINT.

429965

And my 24v dc at the inlet. What gives I’m thinking grrrr...

429967

[Patrick Walsh]

So lost and at a complete loss where to go from here I get on the phone to the pump manufacturer and talk to a engineer. I tell him all about my little project and my switch that won’t work. He had no idea why. But he saiz something about the pump having such a low draw .16v that the switch can’t sense it and I need a different switch. He mentions nothing of how to wore it or jumping this or that together. He gives me a McMaster part number.

I order the switch. Mind you he was fully aware this was a 24vdc application only.

So I get this hook it up and nothing again. Ok I’m gonna drive my dam van straight through my shop at this point and I have pretty much had enough at this point. As much as I love screwing with machines and then the rewards of working with them this one has me on the brink of madness.

429969

Notice it’s 120 not 24v so all wired up it still won’t sense the pump.

Ok another McMaster return another day or two wait to sort this out. I thought I was done is this like three weeks ago lol. It’s really testing my patients at this point.

The new 24vdc switch..

429972

Success it works finally. Holly crap I never thought I would see the day at this point. Now to dial in the flow rate, fingers crossed now that I have the pump switched and powered the flow rate of the pump like to do the job I’m gonna ask it to do.

[Patrick Walsh]

So I get out of my sparkles clothes and put on my plumbers clothes.

At first go things are not looking good. The pump just won’t prime the lines. Now mind you this is a micro dosing pump. I’m using like 1/8 iD tube. I try priming the line by mouth and it seems no dice. I let the quill fill with a bit of oil as it has a small shallow depression under the lower bearing where it collects directing it into a small hole and thus the return line.

429973

I get it flowing and connect it to the pump and power it up. Nothing again, no dice, pump is pumping but no oil is returning to the Rez. So I bust the plumbing all,down again and double check everything. I remember back a friend helping mentioning that this micro dosing pump suggestes the use of like a 1/16 iD lines.

So my feed is a line writhing a line. For the most part 3/13 line with a 1/16 line running through it. The inner line is what delivers my oil to the quill and the bearings. The outer line delivers oil that disperses the oil from a drop into a mist.

Do I decide to hook this tube imma tune stufff up..

All plumbed and this smaller I’d line seems to be working.

429974

[Patrick Walsh]

So,I leave it running for a few hours while I’m working “you know with wood” keeping a eye in it out the corner of my eye. All seems great I’m tickled and satisfied finally. I power it down and go eat dinner. I come back row hours later and fire it up and the return line return rate had diminished to like one drip every 40-60 seconds.

That’s not gonna work as the system can only hold so much oil before it overflows the little cup under the lower bearing. Once again I wanna put my head in a vise and squeeze my dam brains out of my head. I think it though and decided the little tiny 1/16 iD like mist have clogged with some soot shedding out of the quill. It is a old machine made in 1982 after all.

So I tear down all the plumbing yet again check all the lines for clogs and a nice tight pressure fit looking for air or oil leaks. I pretty much find nothing. I set it back up and run it again for a hour. Everything is perfect with a return drip ever 3-6 seconds just like it was from the factory in 1982. I shut it off let it sit for a 10 minutes turn it back on all good. So I turn it off let it sit for a hour turn it back on all good. I go to bed and come back the next morning and fire it up and still all good. I check it several ti,is throughout the day as I work and still freaking good.

I’m a bit suspect s\at this point it will continue to be good. But provided the oil stays clean I don’t see any reason why I wouldn’t. It had best as the next step is sourcing yet another pump that can handle a larger ID tube as to shed any contaminant. Not so easy a if I could had found one the first go around I would have.

So this little cluster is three pieces. The first is a soft start in off switch. The second is a regulator/filter. The third is another filter to tend to the excessive water my little mini compressor creates.

429975

Air comes in the left and exists out the right and feeds the input pump. This pump also operates off dc power. Without both air and electricity it wont work. It sucks air and oil in the left and spits it out the right and up tot he top of the quill.


429977
429976
429975

[Patrick Walsh]

The bottom line feeds the upper bearing and the bottom returns it to the Rez.

429979

The return pump operates only via 24vdc power and does it use air. It’s flow rate is controlled via a 24vdc switch. All this is wired to the machine proper. When I turn the power on to the spindle everything fires up together.

It’s pretty slick honestly now all done but mental energy and much $$$ spent and me exhausted regarding both. If I take into account just previous to this I figured out pretty much on the own how to wire a phase converter to power my three phase machines and I have been down a very deep rabbit hole for many weeks in way above my head with no choice but figure my way out or succumb to defeat.

I do t do delete and I really don’t know the meaning of quit. This one came real close to beating me. It has 100% left me thinking this should not be so hard and I bet “a actual smart guy” not me could had done this 123.

So now running it’s a charm and even better in use but something is loose and making a crappy rattle noise. I can’t have a rattle noise coming from my precious Martin as that’s what I buy these martins as they are so freaking smooth and relatable. So off I go down another Brit hole to find the rattle.

I find out it’s this little box that indexes they pull belts and sends a signal to four lights in the side of the machine that indicate spindle speed. So I set off again tearing a knee part of the machine apart.

429981

The box is just behind the orange kipp lever.

I need to pull this apart anyway as the cable gland was missing it’s inner rubber. This let dust and potentially oil form the quill just above down into it.

I ordered a variety pack of cable glads being I got all excited when I figured out the German specific threads. I can’t have a cable gland that can’t snug a wire on one of my machines. You think I’m kidding but I really can’t.

I had also had another t23 owner missing this piece on his machine request I make him detailed drawing and or tracings of the parts so he can have them replicated. This was a perfect opportunity to kill a couple birds with one stone. Ah I hate that expression as much as I hate the one about pit bulls and dog fights being I’m a pit bull owner and can’t stand people whom don’t like pit bulls. Ok me and my politics. But really I don’t like you if you don’t like spit bull just because it’s a pit bull. Anyway lol I just can’t stop myself.

The gasket on this was shot so I replaced it with sticker back felt. I have found felt gaskets all over these old machines mostly relating to oil. But being this is what I had I figured it would work. It’s low voltage also 24v dc and honestly I can’t see it being a problem. I’m slightly worried but not worried. I’d have just used rubber if I had had it.

429983

[Patrick Walsh]

I also made a switch. I lost the original in transit. I used a piece of scrap ebony after looking online and not liking anything I could find in square shaft.

429984

429985

429986

Then all,that stink about exact reproductions of the louvered covers. Well here’s where I am. The dust collection on the machine is not great and it spits massive mounts of shavings out the back of the machine and thus into the inside of the base. I went so nuts cleaning it I just can’t let it get all screwed again in a couple uses.

So I ordered some hdpe with the intention of copying everything but the louvers and instead routing slots horizontally across them. After much time spent behind a pos router table trying to do this I couldn’t get the perfect clean result I expect. Prob a,y good enough for most but not like a cnc machine cut them or they were poured in a moulding so I gave up. I’ll make two like this then when time and finds allow I’ll have a three axis cnc machine cut the louvers in them.

For now I can work, have been working and the machine is just a dam dream. Worth it all but oh boy I earned this one.

429987

429988

429989

[Patrick Walsh]

Proof it works..

429990

429991

429992

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh I left out one last detail.

What I thought was a low air need application or solution turns out to be not so low air application. I require 4cfpm @ 90 psi to max out this pump. I have it set slightly bellow that. Maybe like 2.5 cfom @ like 65 psi. This is a constant air requirement if the machine is running.

As a result my little porter cable pancake compressor runs nearly full time of the machine is on. I’m gonna start a fire.

So after talking it over with a number of compressor manufactures based on my pumps specs it looks like I’ll need a 2 stage 5hp 60-80 gallon compressor with a auto drain and proper air dryer as you know I’m spraying my bearings with compressed air. If water gets in there it very very bad.

So you know the $$ marches in as is all this shop related stuff all the time. $2300 for the compressor, $8-900 for the air dryer, another $150-300 for the auto drain. And holly freaking crap when people suggest building a shop on short money I kinda just laugh a little inside and think you will figure out the truth as I have a little at a time over a number of years.

But man this is not a poor mans venture unless you are not prone to carpal tunnel do it only part time,or just lol, at your machines vrs use them or something like that. Otherwise it’s a never ending money pit!

[David Kumm]

Find a Quincy QR 325 and put in a gasket kit and copper seals. the valves can sit in evaporust and be good as new. The QR was maybe the best compressor made and it runs slow and pretty quiet. The larger the tank, the less moisture to capture. I have less than 1K in mine with a very good motor and 100 gal tank. After the problems with the shaper, a QR is a piece of cake to rehab. A day or two at most. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

One of my challenges Dave is yet again amperage or available amperage.

This compressor is gong to be much like a dust collector for a home workshop. Single phase dust collector three phase phase converter machinery.

My issue is I don’t have a 50 amp breaker available to run the compressor alongside the shaper and a dust collector. I can handle a 30 amp breaker and I have one already wired adjacent to the the place I can fit the compressor currently dedicated to my bandsaw. I can plug in and unplug the bandsaw as needed but when using the shaper I’ll need the compressor shaper and dust collector running maybe all at once even if only for short times as the compressor should if sized properly “big enough tank” every 20-30 minutes.

I found one Cambel Housfeld 5hp two stage machine that specs a 30 amp breaker. I was originally thinking the 3.5 hp single stage Quincy unit but I read terrible things about it and then I was told it would not suit my air requirements so it’s out.

So now I’m faced with another problem and not one I’m gonna resolve just moving and no I’m not upgrading my electrical as it’s the middle of a pandemic and I. Not spending money I don’t need to unless I need to. I do the compressor and the service upgrade and I could be $6k into this maybe $7K. So as committed as I am to my shop “and happy to be so” saying I told you so to the naysayers right now more than ever as I get to work away through this nightmare still eating a pay check even if I am paying a bigger electric bill and dumping my own money into equipment. This isn’t the first time my shop had bailed me out or earned me extra income. Am I even close to a break even point probably not but close. But that’s not all it’s about it’s also about fun.

I also,suspect I won’t always work for someone as I don’t think I’ll be happy doing so long term. But I’d say maybe another 5-10 years..


Find a Quincy QR 325 and put in a gasket kit and copper seals. the valves can sit in evaporust and be good as new. The QR was maybe the best compressor made and it runs slow and pretty quiet. The larger the tank, the less moisture to capture. I have less than 1K in mine with a very good motor and 100 gal tank. After the problems with the shaper, a QR is a piece of cake to rehab. A day or two at most. Dave

[David Kumm]

Are you needing single phase because the converter won't handle another three phase machine? Quincy made lots or QR models. While two stage is nice, a single stage would work too. The 325 can also be run with a 3 hp motor and a smaller drive pulley. The QR series had a wide range of speeds they could be run at. Look for a 3 hp unit. It won't put out as much air but life is a trade off. The old Quincy will be running when the new C-H compressors are long dead. Saylor Beall, Kellogg, others made good compressors but finding a pressure lubed like the QR is pretty rare. Dave

[Ron Selzer]

"Worth it all but oh boy I earned this one."

Yes you did!
Really like the way that locking miter joint looks

[Patrick Walsh]

Dave I’ll request your help here as your opinion of valued. Clearly we have similar taste and ideas regarding what a good machine is and is not.

I was actually thinking of a old unit but I’m honestly not up for another project if it’s the type of the “unknown variety” I’m actually longing for just a little bit of plug and play. Sadly my wallet doesn’t support such ventures very often when talking about high quality Woodworking machines.

My fear in a old unit is well I don’t know my arss from my whatever regarding motors. The only thing I know per your above suggestion is the head gasket could essentially be bad. But with my luck as of late I’ll buy a unit so,done ran to long with a blown head gasket and the heads will be warped or a rod will be busted or or or..

But I’d much prefer a old unit to a new one provided it’s worth the effort and can be nicer than any new unit. I’d be happy enough with a new higher end Quincy but it’s $3200.

Then onto my hp issue. I need the 5hp so I think to creat the amount of air I need and not listen to the dam thing cycle all day.

Anymore thoughts?


Are you needing single phase because the converter won't handle another three phase machine? Quincy made lots or QR models. While two stage is nice, a single stage would work too. The 325 can also be run with a 3 hp motor and a smaller drive pulley. The QR series had a wide range of speeds they could be run at. Look for a 3 hp unit. It won't put out as much air but life is a trade off. The old Quincy will be running when the new C-H compressors are long dead. Saylor Beall, Kellogg, others made good compressors but finding a pressure lubed like the QR is pretty rare. Dave

[David Kumm]

I would avoid the pumps that have been sitting in the graveyard and look for a working unit with a decent looking tank. There are also duplex units used that tend to be hard to sell. Two 3 hp units on one tank. You shouldn't be afraid of buying another used machine. You have taken to of the most difficult and in comparison the Quincy is an easy fix. If you find one cheap enough, you can even wire it through a vfd if the motor is three phase, which most will be. The sound of those old Quincy's is part of their charm. The fact that they are pressure lubed compared to the splash system of most others sets them apart as well. Look up some QR rehab videos on youtube for an idea of what you are in for. Keep in mind that there are running units out there that don't need the degree of work on the videos. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh man Dave,

What have you done!

You planted a dam seed and now I’m done for.

I spent a good amount of time good going around last evening and this morning. That noise you refer to I am familiar with but didn’t know I was till you pointed it out.

I think it may be my uncles shop that I am in the “know” as to that sound. His compressor room has two very big units. One a Quincy and another I can’t remember but it’s a back up. The Quincy get all the use and it has that quiet sof chug chug chug vrs that blap blap blap sound.

In my little space I’m not excited about one of these monster compressors hence my willingness to go with a 60-80 gallon tank to cut cycle times.

Beyond the noise thing the vintage thing and your points regarding splash lube yada yada make it more attractive to me. I tend to like the old machines because they were built better and at a time when things were built to be repairable vrs disposable. I much prefer to own things I can fix vrs repalce.

But shit it’s not easy to just find one of these compressors. And sadly most are not upright and ideally and maybe I have to have a upright unit. It seems it will be a chore to find not only a upright unit but also a 5hp unit vrs 7.5-10 not to mention single phase.

I’m open to VfD but to get my 5hp I’d need 7.5 and then maybe more than the 30 amp breaker I have availibity.

So you know non of the above is as easy at hit “purchase” on amazon and have a lift gate drop it at the end of my driveway then wrestle it into my shop.

But you know having one more sweet old forever machine may just be worth what feels liked commitment to more old machine leg work..

[Patrick Walsh]

Ok it’s Saturday I’m sitting still handing with the pup and bored.

Plus I had a request from another owner regarding this switch. I also figure it’s worth documenting here for people moving forward should they ever need it.

I know it’s threads like this that have been of a immense help to me as I sink deeper and deeper into this old machine addiction/obsession.

Reappear picture but this shows where it mounts.

430045

The wires go back to a 24vdc rectifier in the machines electrical box. The switch actual test around depending on the placement of the belt and send a single to a light indicating rpm on the outside of the machine.

430046

Now a few Picts of the various sides. The fin type thing moves on a nut and bolt back and forth. A bearing is set onto a spring in a drilled out hole that indexes depressions on the fin. These index points set the various positions that coral are with the belt and pully positions and hence the four different rpm. 3000,4500,6000,9000.

430047

430048

430049

430050

430051

[Patrick Walsh]

More,

430052

430053

Look at the machined surface of this simple electrical box. If this machine was built today this box would be a total flimsy pos and 40 years from now be gong in the dumpster.

430054

430055

Cable glands with German threads. Who would think one would be so excited by a variety pack of cable glands. Honestly before this project I didn’t even know the proper term for these being “cable glands” I’m a sick waste of a aging human life being this is where I focus so much energy” that’s just my opinion thought Ymir’s May vary as others say.

That’s it for now.

Oh the light bulbs for the lights are a nightmare to find. The seller of the ,aching was kind enough to find them for me when I started running into problem after problem after problem with this machine.

The lights are pretty cool in person if your smitten by such details..

[Joe Calhoon]

Part of my speed indicator is missing and I think your later model might be better. On the to do list to fix sometime. Did Matt find a source for the light bulbs?
I’m jealous of your push button start and stops. One boneheaded thing I did restoring mine was to loose those. Had them masked off during painting. Pulled the tape and didn’t notice the buttons were still attached till long after the tape went in the trash.

[David Kumm]

I'm an enabler. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh man that’s heartbreaking joe.

Kinda like my on off switch I let rattle of in transport. Such a bone head move. The machines remain intact and complete then a couple obsessed nuts like us get involved and look what we do “parts missing” on day one :(

Yes Matt found the lights. I have a link to them. They are led and flutter a wee bit but they are better than nothing and I’m thankful to have them.

That Matt guy can figure “most” anything out. Pretty Impressive really.

Ideally you would drop a machine like this off to a guy like Matt and he would get it running tops. Then you would drop it off to anal retentive guy like me with a blank check to do the finish work. Although I don’t think he would had been as anal retentive or gone to the lengths I did with the oil delivery system but I don’t think many would tbh. Pretty sure he would had kept to the original pump somehow “although both of us couldn’t fire out how to” and or resorted to a full gravity system. Regardless all would get the machine operational. He really is a very smart guy and generous with his knowledge.


Part of my speed indicator is missing and I think your later model might be better. On the to do list to fix sometime. Did Matt find a source for the light bulbs?
I’m jealous of your push button start and stops. One boneheaded thing I did restoring mine was to loose those. Had them masked off during painting. Pulled the tape and didn’t notice the buttons were still attached till long after the tape went in the trash.

[Patrick Walsh]

I always seem to find myself in the hands of a good enabler..


I'm an enabler. Dave

[Ron Selzer]

Patrick also look at the Champion line of compressors made in USA. Installed one at work a few years back for the bus garage and was really impressed by it.
Pressure lubricated, new, vertical tank, 3 hp, low rpm looks to be a VPL 3-8. Might find one used while you are looking around.
Also look over their literature about the extended warranty requirements, as it is some very basic things to do with any air compressor to extend the life of it that may not be apparent.
Quincy is well known and respected, definitely would be nice to own one.
Good luck
Ron


(https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwiBs_fK0ODoAhXRhlsKHcGRAnsYABANGgJ5bQ&sig=AOD64_2mrjL1NExwE8RdTGzicPeNUwRdvg&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwisiO_K0ODoAhVCb60KHbMxBc4QpysIbw&adurl=)

[Joe Calhoon]

That Matt guy can figure “most” anything out. Pretty Impressive really.

Ideally you would drop a machine like this off to a guy like Matt and he would get it running tops. Then you would drop it off to anal retentive guy like me with a blank check to do the finish work. Although I don’t think he would had been as anal retentive or gone to the lengths I did with the oil delivery system but I don’t think many would tbh. Pretty sure he would had kept to the original pump somehow “although both of us couldn’t fire out how to” and or resorted to a full gravity system. Regardless all would get the machine operational. He really is a very smart guy and generous with his knowledge.

Matt helped me figure out a lot on my T23. When I burned up the motor on my Olliver 182 sander he put me in touch with his old school motor shop. It was a odd size frame no longer available. His guy rewound it and changed the voltage from 208 to 240. Then Dave Kumm supplied me with a vintage push button switch for it.

[David Kumm]

My motor guy is in his late 70s and is a magician. I don't know how I will replace him. He always had more work than he could handle but never found anyone with the talent and ambition to take over the business. Too bad as motor guys can actually make a good living. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Funny joe,

In theories of buying the machine from Matt hen his helping me resolve this issue we touched on just about everything vintage machinery related two guys who truely love these old machines could. One being the motor to your 381 and the motor shop way up there in the middle of no where New York.

We have motor shops here in mass but mist don’t want to talk to you. They tend to service large institutions and have no time for small work. Even in the world of Organs and on the restoration end of the business I’m finding the blowers motors are often preserved. That filter box I build a number of weeks ago was for a blower “fan” that was over 6” diameter. The motor that spun it was 15hp. Just to change the bearing, leads and clean it up “no rewind” was $2200. Can you believe that what highway robbery. It really is just so stupid expensive where I live.

Without Matt’s willingness and interest in helping I’d still be trying to figure out what was what..


Matt helped me figure out a lot on my T23. When I burned up the motor on my Olliver 182 sander he put me in touch with his old school motor shop. It was a odd size frame no longer available. His guy rewound it and changed the voltage from 208 to 240. Then Dave Kumm supplied me with a vintage push button switch for it.

[Patrick Walsh]

So not that I’m leaving the house right now to buy a compressor but it has become my next shop focus for sure.

Here is where I’m at and I’d like to run it buy you guys that have been down the compressor road. If I can find one of the old pressure lube Quincy units I’ll go that route. However I mostly find horizontal units. And most not Quincy and then I don’t know if they are actually pressure lube vrs splash. I like the look “yeah stupid” of the horizontal units. And honestly it would make getting the dam thing in and out of my shop way way more easy as I wouldn’t have to rig something up outside my shop to lay it on its side. But the footprint in my shop will kinds suck not the worst but not ideal and not the corner I found to stuff t away to date.

So then I found the Saylor-Beall brand. And honestly I kinda go a hard on for a new one. I’d be just as extorted by the old Quincy but I’m tired man and I have other crap I need to focus on till next winter as it’s the season to tend to the exterior of the house.

So I’m thinking a 5hp Saylor-Beal pressure lube 80 gallon unit with the cooler, mag switch, auto drain and and the pretty much all the bells and whistles.

Would you consider one of these units sub par and not going to last like one of the old Quincy qp units you suggested are akin to a cockroach.

I found a 120 gallon horizontal Kellogg local to me for short money but it’s horizontal and huge. And it’s three phase and 10hp so I’d have to replace the motor. But it’s just to big so it doesn’t matter.


My motor guy is in his late 70s and is a magician. I don't know how I will replace him. He always had more work than he could handle but never found anyone with the talent and ambition to take over the business. Too bad as motor guys can actually make a good living. Dave

[Jim Becker]

Honestly....even if you went for a more bargain compressor, it's going to last a long, long time in a shop situation like yours. I'm not advocating you do that, but my point is that you are probably best served by choosing a unit that has the specifications, form factor and features you want for the best price you can obtain it within a few "acceptable" brands that you can be happy with. And yea...auto-drain isn't optional, IMHO. Best thing since sliced bread...

[Patrick Walsh]

So I have in depth determined my needs based on math pertaining to my exact cfm and psi requirements for the stupid shaper. Ok I don’t think it’s a stupid shaper at all “I actually quite love it tbh” but you know this is stupid or I’m stupid or both. But you know at some point I would have to go down this compressor hole and “me being me” you could only guess I’d go all the way. The fact is I really will move and probably in the next 3-5 years. After this pandemic thing it only reinforces my understanding and belief that “we only live once” and that “nothing is promised tomorrow” so much so I tattooed it around my neck just to remind not to get complacent living the way the masses tell me I should. I’m not living the life I see myself living here in metropolitan Boston and I refuse to look back with regrets.

The next shop will be three and now after this pandemic four fold. Wood shop, Metal shop, spray booth and indoor hydroponic garden at least 1000sqft. Remember I’m vegan and I have much gardening experience both indoor and outdoor. I also get kinda grossed out by grocery stores and eating out. I was a germaphobe before this “really” and after well I suspect I may never ever eat out again. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have eaten out in the past five years and I think that is a honest accurate statement.

So I’ll need the air at some point and I’m making these purchases with the intention of never ever having to make them again. Be they crap machines that shit the bed or my needs grow and I am under tooled.

For now the overkill with regard to tank size is I’m spoiled “clearly” and I don’t want to listen to the compressor being I don’t much like noise or any sort. I much prefer the sound of birds chirping and the wind. The tank size will limit it to switching on and off ever 30 minutes give or take.

But the 5hp and Cubic foot math is 100% based on the air requirements of the stupid pump on the shaper.

My guess is with this Saylor Beal unit it’s late summer fall before I purchase it unless I run into a boat load of side work “that I can’t do cuz I gotta finish the outside of my house” but I do have a project coming in so who knows..

I just can’t do anything good enough unless you pay me. Honestly the pain I endure day in and day our building things the way my employer wants me to “so he can make money and keep me employed” I get it..... is painful enough that I have to recognize my need for just doing things the right way and the best I can “perfection” someplace.

Like right now, I’m building a bunch of stuff that really should be M&T together. If there ever was a call or need for actual joinery it would be this. But instead I’m using a domino XL. People can argue what they want but it’s not good enough and it’s not the same as a actual M&T when we are talking about something that will still be here in another 100 years hopefully more baring a natural disaster. When I say it stresses me out even hurts while I’m making this stuff not being able to do the best I can i 100% mean it. It stressed me the bleep out and pretty much takes a good amount of the joy of making away for me. But you know it’s about a means to end as it kinda has to be right.


Honestly....even if you went for a more bargain compressor, it's going to last a long, long time in a shop situation like yours. I'm not advocating you do that, but my point is that you are probably best served by choosing a unit that has the specifications, form factor and features you want for the best price you can obtain it within a few "acceptable" brands that you can be happy with. And yea...auto-drain isn't optional, IMHO. Best thing since sliced bread...

[Tom M King]

I bought this Speedaire off of CL, and paid the seller a couple of hundred bucks to deliver it from another state. He called at 1:30 in the morning, lost, so I went, and led him here from I85. I paid $500, plus the 200 delivery fee.

I knew it was a gamble, but he sounded honest, and said the business owner, that he works for, gave it to him for doing a job. He said they had used it for a while, found out it was too small, and just pushed it aside. It was still on the shipping pallet, and only looked dirty in the pictures.

It turned out fine. I found a 7-1/2hp single phase motor, and figured out the right size pulley, after finding what size pulley's Speedaire uses on it for 10, and 15 hp units. It's plumbed using a Speedaire dryer that is good for up to some cfm in the 50's, that also came off of CL for $125.

With the refresh kit for the dryer, motor, starter, and some plumbing, I don't have much more than a grand in it now. This picture was from the morning I brought it inside, after unloading it with a gantry crane early in the previous morning.

Sometimes, you take a gamble, and it might pay off. It has pressurized oiling, and the only thing I own that Ihave to wait for it using is a rock drill.

Glove is size large. Tank is 120 gallon horizontal. I also have a spare 10hp Baldor 3 phase out of the deal.
https://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploads/monthly_2017_11/5a09cc3b72a15_CIMG2337(1280x960).jpg.0d85959ccab1b 8acccdafe16facbf8a5.jpg

[Patrick Walsh]

Nice compressor Tom.

Just to be clear I’m hunting. I actually have a couple craigslist feelers out. But I’m also not leaving my house for a compressor so I fully expect my hunting to be empty.

If I find the right used machine in the intrum between now and when I can actually acquire one I’ll surely go that route as I do like old stuff. I’m also willing to do the leg work but I’d be lying to say a high quality new machine with a cost of say $4k vrs the prospect of say the acquisition of a high quality shaper say $4k vrs $35K seems like one stinking machine I can just stomach throwing down a wad of cash for to mitigate the work that goes into a old machine to get it working. All the way down to having a lift gate drop it at the end of my driveway. I guess I’m getting a wee tired. I also have to consider I have a 12pm 4K lb lathe to get into my shop when it’s safe to do so.

Thanks to Dave I’m also sold on the pressure lube vrs splash lube regardless of if I should be or not. I’m also 100% committed to buying as quite a unit as can be had without going a silent dental type unit as honestly they will not suit my needs now or later.

Again the right used machine will find its way into my shop if it can be found before I’m ready to just plunk down $4k on a shiny new Saylor Beall. They really are sweet all those features already tended to without me having to tinker around. And quiet with a beautiful a sound I can ask a compressor to make if I gotta listen to a dam compressor.


I bought this Speedaire off of CL, and paid the seller a couple of hundred bucks to deliver it from another state. He called at 1:30 in the morning, lost, so I went, and led him here from I85. I paid $500, plus the 200 delivery fee.

I knew it was a gamble, but he sounded honest, and said the business owner, that he works for, gave it to him for doing a job. He said they had used it for a while, found out it was too small, and just pushed it aside. It was still on the shipping pallet, and only looked dirty in the pictures.

It turned out fine. I found a 7-1/2hp single phase motor, and figured out the right size pulley, after finding what size pulley's Speedaire uses on it for 10, and 15 hp units. It's plumbed using a Speedaire dryer that is good for up to some cfm in the 50's, that also came off of CL for $125.

With the refresh kit for the dryer, motor, starter, and some plumbing, I don't have much more than a grand in it now. This picture was from the morning I brought it inside, after unloading it with a gantry crane early in the previous morning.

Sometimes, you take a gamble, and it might pay off. It has pressurized oiling, and the only thing I own that Ihave to wait for it using is a rock drill.

Glove is size large. Tank is 120 gallon horizontal. I also have a spare 10hp Baldor 3 phase out of the deal.
https://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploads/monthly_2017_11/5a09cc3b72a15_CIMG2337(1280x960).jpg.0d85959ccab1b 8acccdafe16facbf8a5.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

Patrick, with relatively constant long run times, a screw compressor becomes a possibility. When i was hunting for a compressor, option B was a used Kaeser screw compressor.

[Warren Lake]

5 HP 2 Stage, 80 gallon tank is a good baseline. For one it will run a dynbrade. Second it will let you sandblast. If your compressor runs more than 40 percent of the time then its too small.

Mine is toast now after 33 years at this location and beating the snot out of it, its damn loud and they are not really interested in selling parts. A top restorer I know runs three compressors in a sound proof room above his sandblast booth which is a modified past car spray booth with a hoist and all. He blasts at 200 PSI, for all the times there ive never heard a compressor running.

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh I know Brian ;)

I have been looking at Kaeser upright little mini units. Well used ones, but I dare not mention that round these here parts as I don’t wanna be burned at the stake like a heretic by the guys content with a butter knife and stick to make stuff.

No offense meant by that but by contrast to what you and I desire and or feel good about owning and using it’s kinda a accurate comparison lol.

I’m pretty smitten with this Saylor Beal unit at the moment tbh. But honestly I have always wanted a Kaeser but not had the use or the pockets deep enough.

I never figured I’d get excited about buying a compressor but you know here we are. I have a feeling the Kaeser to meet my specs n good light used condition will still be much more than even i can justify spending?



Patrick, with relatively constant long run times, a screw compressor becomes a possibility. When i was hunting for a compressor, option B was a used Kaeser screw compressor.

[Patrick Walsh]

And this is why I’m willing to go what might seem like overboard and all out to some. As stated this compressor will follow me to my new life.

My new life will be a shop fully equipped to handle my machine restorations spray booth sandblaster and all.

With that said I should probably be getting a even bigger unit than 5hp. Figure I can have a shop compressor and spray booth compressor and or replace the motor to a 10-15hp motor when needed?


5 HP 2 Stage, 80 gallon tank is a good baseline. For one it will run a dynbrade. Second it will let you sandblast. If your compressor runs more than 40 percent of the time then its too small.

Mine is toast now after 33 years at this location and beating the snot out of it, its damn loud and they are not really interested in selling parts. A top restorer I know runs three compressors in a sound proof room above his sandblast booth which is a modified past car spray booth with a hoist and all. He blasts at 200 PSI, for all the times there ive never heard a compressor running.

[Brian Holcombe]

The trouble I suppose is that a compressor is often something you weren’t really expecting to need so the expense seems like a whopper but they aren’t really out of line with any other machine in this same quality range.

Anywho, I didn’t realize that you bought something so it’s a moot point. Enjoy the new compressor.

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh no I miscommunicated or you misunderstood.

I have purchased nothing.

I wouldn’t dare right now. I still have a job and am being told week in and week that we still have all our contracts to finish this organ and to build the next. Then some Church furniture I requested we quote as it interests me to build. So I think I’m ok but you never can tell.

It’s funny I always like German everything. I have never been a American made fan mostly from the perspective I think generally someone else always does it better. From a guy that’s american making a living with his hands though I do like the idea of supporting a small operation like Saylor Beall but honestly I’m not gonna purchase based on that. I’m gonna purchase on what I feel is the best product.

I’m on the fence on this one. I like the romance of the Saylor Beall and or a old Quincy combined with the brick shit house. But I like the Kaeser for the same reason I like a Japanese Kana vrs a LN smoother or a Martin shaper vrs a Scmi..


The trouble I suppose is that a compressor is often something you weren’t really expecting to need so the expense seems like a whopper but they aren’t really out of line with any other machine in this same quality range.

Anywho, I didn’t realize that you bought something so it’s a moot point. Enjoy the new compressor.

[Brian Holcombe]

High end American producers tend to be mid-scale operations, stuff like ‘Orange’ vises come to mind. There are a very really high quality stand-outs

I generally like German made stuff. It’s typically very well made.

[Patrick Walsh]

U lost me on orange vises but it doesn’t matter lol..

Right now I’m dreaming cuz I always gotta have a goal to work towards.

I think a Kaeser will be out of reach for me. Maybe not I’ve seen a few over the last 3-5 years that I could had afforded. But you know I wasn’t looking. And now that I am i bet I’ll never find one..


High end American producers tend to be mid-scale operations, stuff like ‘Orange’ vises come to mind. There are a very really high quality stand-outs

I generally like German made stuff. It’s typically very well made.

[Warren Lake]

I was told not to go bigger but you add a second 5 HP for the times you require more. most of the time you dont so running the bigger one is a waste at that point for most air needs. The Dyna and the sandblasting more so need tons of air. Im going that route not bigger.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah I think for electrical reasons no point going bigger than i need. Maybe other reasons also but I don’t know.

I fully expect to be sandblasting at some point so....



I was told not to go bigger but you add a second 5 HP for the times you require more. most of the time you dont so running the bigger one is a waste at that point for most air needs. The Dyna and the sandblasting more so need tons of air. Im going that route not bigger.

[Patrick Walsh]

It’s funny I have always been told this also. Hence why or partially why my mind steers away from rotary screw.

But oddly enough I’m talking to Quicy the other day. And I preface by saying I was told not to buy one of their compressors by the person helping me as he considered it a pos. And he point blank told me “Quincy” is not the only company that makes a good compressor that may fit your need. Anyway I mentioned about rotary screw and long runs and he told me as a tech that that was horse crap.

Now you know this is just one guy and it’s only ever been some guy telling me they needed long run times and most of the time it’s not like the person is some compressor expert. But you know I’m not questioning you or him just stating that for once I was told it was bs and it happened to be from a guy that should know and wasn’t trying to sell me something.

O would like to know as I totally don’t want to buy a screw to find out what I’ve been told six million times. But if it’s not true I would like a Kaeser..



+1 on the long run-time. Anybody looking at rotary screws needs to consider it. The oil has to heat up, so longer run times are required - longer than in the average small shop (commercial or hobby). Low usage just ruins them.

For our distributed instrument air needs we use a lot of paired Atlas-Copco GX5 (5Hp) units, but in addition to the OEM receivers, we use 2 additional receivers (800 gal ea.), and we deep cycle the pressure (250psi OFF / 80psi ON) , all to get decently long run times. ...in the desert, so space is not an issue.

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m recalling from memory, but in speaking with Kaeser the salesperson mentioned it was the wrong compressor for me due to a lack of run-time. He recommended at least an hour at a given time. What I took that as, is that running it for a few moments and then not for a while was going to shorten the time period between service.

Didn’t work for me, but if spraying, running air tools, etc I would have strongly considered it. They look like a nice piece of equipment.

[David Kumm]

A rotary screw type compressor is for those who need constant air for long periods. They need a lot of maintenance if only running periodically. Quincy, like others has several levels, the QT being the cheapest. Check around for a shop that rehabs compressors. I bought a used Kellog with a 80 gal tank for $800 about 10 years ago and it is still going. The guy kept his workers busy in the off season rehabbing compressors. It is no QR but has paid for itself many times. I found a used HT air dryer for it too. I also redid a 5120 with a 25 hp motor for sandblasting. Use it about once every five years but really puts out air. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

That’s what I got right now.

It cycles on and off every 20 seconds. It’s gonna start a fire. And it creates massive amounts of water. My pump delivers oil and air to bearings. $500 a piece bearings and days work to replace them so you know I’m kinda protective of them.

I know exactly what my air usage is. Obviously that’s like step number one in this whole thing when you realize the compressor you have I st cutting it. I have spoken with multiple professionals very specifically as to my cfm @ a very specific psi requirements and I’m told it’s way higher than one would think for a simple little pump. That it requires a constant source of air. Hence the minimum requirement of 5hp.

It was suggested a 60 gallon tank would work but that it would cycle on and off every ten minutes. I don’t want to listen to the dam thing and I think I have said that like 300 times.

I also don’t see why not buy a 80 gallon tank if I’m considering a 60 as whats the difference really and 80 gallons is pretty standard for any real air need.

So that’s why. No attitude but it really is not that simple and if you had read my thread prior to commenting you would know that the pancake compressor you suggested is what I’m running “not working” and the whole point of mentioning any of this.


If you'll excuse the simple-minded butting into your biz ... from what I see of your air needs here, I'd get a $50 pancake compressor that a roofer has worked the dog-snot out of. It will run the oiler and I can move on - all without re-doing the entire eastern seaboard's electrical grid.

[Darcy Warner]

Always drama over everything. it's just a damn compressor, they almost fall out of trees. I have accumulated a few 350s and a couple 390s with 120 and 200 gallon tanks.
No other two stage compressor compares to the older Quincy's. the new ones are throw away garbage.

[Patrick Walsh]

I do agree they look very nice.

For me and my use at least for now pertaining to the shaper it would generally be short runs. Minutes not hours and only hours of run time here and there. From time to time maybe a half day 2-3 hours at a clip.

Hence why I kinda discarded the idea of a rotary screw.

Now long term for the purpose of spraying I would 100% setup a pray booth with a rotary screw. But even then I think it’s overkill being a good air dryer and properly sized compressor is probably good enough as many do just that. Again I’m never much concerned what’s good enough for most vrs what suits my expectations and desires.

I would be interested to know exactly how a rotary screw would react to my use. Be interesting to know of for no other reason than to know.


I’m recalling from memory, but in speaking with Kaeser the salesperson mentioned it was the wrong compressor for me due to a lack of run-time. He recommended at least an hour at a given time. What I took that as, is that running it for a few moments and then not for a while was going to shorten the time period between service.

Didn’t work for me, but if spraying, running air tools, etc I would have strongly considered it. They look like a nice piece of equipment.

[Jeff Monson]

I'd steer clear of a screw for home use, heck even in my commercial setting I have been told its not the right choice as I dont require constant supply. I have had a Quincy and 2 C-aire units in my commercial shop over the 26 years of business. Our 3 phase C-air is going on 10 years now 28 CFM and it doesnt skip a beat. I recently purchased a new compressor for my shop at home its a 220 volt Flexilla compressor, I purchased it mainly for low noise level, price and a decent 19 cfm. Going on 5 months with it I"m happy, it gets a workout when I use my sandblast cabinet sometimes running for 2 to 3 hours with no cycle. Lots of choices out there in todays market.

[peter gagliardi]

Been running a 5 hp 2 stage Ingersoll Rand T30 on an 80 gallon tank for prolly 25 years.
2-3 guys in a pro shop years ago, at times all running air sanders- think DA type 6" machines- National Detroit. Anyway, I believe it is about a 19-22 CFM unit, and it runs every other machine in shop- widebelt, shapers, molder, etc........
That is well more than you need, but if you want to spend more, somebody is waiting to take your cash.....

[Patrick Walsh]

My air needs are 13.5 cubic feet per minute at a constant rate. That’s where I’m getting the 5hp 80 gallon tank thing from.

You guys know I like my machines. And you know I don’t really mind spending on something high quality. I actually ate spending my money on anything other than high quality.

I am willing 100% to spend a few bucks extra for something quite as this is going in my house for the time being. I’m also willing to spend for more than I need now knowing I’ll be pissed if I have to replace it like I’ll,probably have to say my phase perfect at some point.

I fully expect at some point my needs will be higher. Mostly a spray booth but surely a widebelt as i got spoiled at my last job. I miss sanding with DA’s kinda but not really cuz of the dust. I guess that could be mitigated. I much prefer sanding with my Festool sanders because of dust collection.

For instance right now I’m building these giant panels and it’s totally annoying I can’t just throw them through a widebelt. Pretty much everything g be so,e way more easy when you can just throw it through the sander and it comes out way nicer.





Been running a 5 hp 2 stage Ingersoll Rand T30 on an 80 gallon tank for prolly 25 years.
2-3 guys in a pro shop years ago, at times all running air sanders- think DA type 6" machines- National Detroit. Anyway, I believe it is about a 19-22 CFM unit, and it runs every other machine in shop- widebelt, shapers, molder, etc........
That is well more than you need, but if you want to spend more, somebody is waiting to take your cash.....

[Patrick Walsh]

Found a bit of free time today to make the second cover. It’s a far departure from my big talk of a exact reproduction. But for now it will do until I have money to burn.

Square,

430713

Simple layout..

430714

Hdpe machines like a dream but makes a terrible mess.

430715

Looks ok but more important keeps the dust out. The dust collection on this machine is terrible!

430716

430717

Works like a dream though. Zero runout at the spindle, like zero. These lock miters are like perfect. That probably has more to do with good material prep, machine setup and a sharp cutter than anything else but.

430718

430719

[Patrick Walsh]

I was getting some snipe on the jointer. Needed to raise the outfeed a bit to account for blade wear.

Had some of this scrap hdpe and I wanted to clean the edges of the panel I had just made with the jointer.

Knowing I had snipe I figured I’d run a offcut first and see what I got. Well good thing I ran a sample as in this material it was miserable.

However using this material vrs wood made it very very easy to see exactly what or how the machine is cutting.

The pattern left by the knives indicates the snipe. Any deviation from that perfect repetitive pattern is indeed snipe. Not so easy to see this in wood. Lots a ways to do this but you know. I thought this was neat and foolproof.

430722

430723

That’s it for a Saturday. I’m getting lazy no longer building cabinets for a living. Leisure time is kinda nice..

[Patrick Walsh]

Greg,

Posting these for you cuz you asked about the feeder. I returned your pm, as I said the feeder is really really everything people say they are. I figured it would be as the people whom say it’s so good I know we’ll know. But I regally didn’t expect it to be so significant..

435711

435714

435713

[David Kumm]

Great job on the dust hood. Dave

[Erik Loza]

435714


Is that carbon fiber?

Erik

[Warren Lake]

leave it to Patrick, yes carbon fibre.

When the owner of Koenigsegg wanted carbon fibre wheels he was told it could not be done, so he did it and the same people said how did you do that?

Patrick im still waiting for you to slip up and do something mediocre or what many call fine quality or high end. Guess that wont be happening soon :) lovely work. When you do more could you make me some wheels for the 2003 Saturn :)





435742

[GregoryP Lewis]

Hey Patrick,
Nice work on both machines. I am looking for a T75 and yours looks great!

Your T23 looks way nicer than mine.
Greg

[Bill Dufour]

You are right around the upper rpm limit for rubber sealed bearings. It may be a good idea to buy shielded ones instead. You need to do some homework about that. Having pumped oil supplied to the bearings causes me to wonder about the type that should be used even more. Bearings have improved in th last 50 years and what was done at the factory in the day may not be the best choice with todays lubes and bearing materials.
Bill D

[Greg Parrish]

Greg,

Posting these for you cuz you asked about the feeder. I returned your pm, as I said the feeder is really really everything people say they are. I figured it would be as the people whom say it’s so good I know we’ll know. But I regally didn’t expect it to be so significant..


Very nice. Looks good and glad its working out well.

And its craziest thing I think I've ever agreed to ship in a box. LOL :)

[Jim Becker]

Is that carbon fiber?


Yea...he detailed that on Instagram and maybe here awhile back and worked hard on it. Subsequently, he bought a nice feeder and did the same...it matches beautifully

[Erik Loza]

Yea...he detailed that on Instagram and maybe here awhile back and worked hard on it. Subsequently, he bought a nice feeder and did the same...it matches beautifully

Awesome. I'm not on the Insta... :o

Erik

[Patrick Walsh]

If you have questions feel free to ask. I have received so much help from so many. I’m not afraid to ask for help and I find most of the time people that “know” share the same passion as I do and are happy to pass it on.

I’ll start by sharing pictures of your quill and spindle. It’s pretty straight forward but kinda no small task as you have to drop the motor to do it. The motor has a mount that is bolted to the bottom of the quill.

435759

435760

With the motor off you gotta take off the pulley.

435761

With the pulley off you gotta get the spindle apart. It’s highly sequential. Beware there is one spacer that looks pressed on but is actually threaded...

435762

All busted up..

435763

435764

You might as well do the motor bearings. They are basic 603C or something. I have a extra full set in my toolbox for both the motor and spindle. The motor bearings were exactly the same as in my T75 so I bet they are the same in your machine. But hot dam the spindle bearings are a whole nother ballgame. I would hope I you know at this point they are a oil drip system. That’s what the pump is about. These bearings are a phenolic or basalite open cage. The oil to be used with them is very specific per Martin and resides in Germany and can only be shipped via a freighter. So it takes weeks to get it. I did tons of research on the bearings and founds that mobile Velocite 6 is the the answer. It’s what I have been running and it’s working great. Best sit down as the whole lot of bearings motor and spindle were like $700. I was silly and purchased four of each in the event anything went wrong or I need them again. The spindle bearings are not so easy to find. Accurate did not have them but was able to get them for me.

Martin sells a greased bearing so called upgrade kit “$7k” and three weeks out minimum.

Now beware and you had better hope to hell your oil pump works. If not that’s a whole nother can of worms. I won’t get into it here unless you need me to. Cost me about $1200 and couple moths of head scratching with a friend driving various pump manufactures And electronic widgets nuts.

If the pump is gone you may need some divine inspiration.

And my suggestion would this be to..

435766

435765

Good luck and remember to have fun. Do it right and you will have no regrets. With the motor and quill dropped it would had been pretty easy to do a full resto in many 40 hrs. But I was in my home shop with no place to sand out 3000 coats of bondo and or shoot autobody paint.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yes it is lol.. it had a huge crack the length of the bottom. Started with JB weld and that would had been fine but I couldn’t just leave it like that.

435772
Is that carbon fiber?

Erik

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks Dave, it was both pretty easy and a total bitch.

I’m not totally happy but I gave up. And as most know It’s pretty hard to get me to quit.

I have since done tons of research. Next time I’ll nail it. And next time will probably be when I restore this machine or take home a t23 tenon table I’m waiting to be able to afford.


Great job on the dust hood. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Warren,

I’d be happy to make you anything any day as your such a gentleman.

But you know I have a feeling your as picky as I am and probably a more capable maker..


leave it to Patrick, yes carbon fibre.

When the owner of Koenigsegg wanted carbon fibre wheels he was told it could not be done, so he did it and the same people said how did you do that?

Patrick im still waiting for you to slip up and do something mediocre or what many call fine quality or high end. Guess that wont be happening soon :) lovely work. When you do more could you make me some wheels for the 2003 Saturn :)





435742

[Mark Hennebury]

Koenigsegg... phoey , kidstufff. C'mon Warren... if you want a set of wheels.....

Bloodhound.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6nvX_qYxsY




leave it to Patrick, yes carbon fibre.

When the owner of Koenigsegg wanted carbon fibre wheels he was told it could not be done, so he did it and the same people said how did you do that?

Patrick im still waiting for you to slip up and do something mediocre or what many call fine quality or high end. Guess that wont be happening soon :) lovely work. When you do more could you make me some wheels for the 2003 Saturn :)





435742