Spokeshave chatter

[Mark Rainey]

I have a few shaves & recently added the LN Boggs convex shave. They were a joy to use on the edges of 1/8 inch cherry. When I had to use them on the 1 inch wide face of cherry, they worked but chattered. When I used them on 4 inch wide cherry they chattered even more. It was difficult to get a smooth ready to finish surface from the shave - I had to resort to sandpaper. The piece was concave with a radius of about 4 inches. Thoughts?

[Robert Hazelwood]

It's probably not the tool's fault- the LN's usually have very good blade bedding. So it comes down to sharpness, depth of cut, and technique. A 1" wide cut requires much more force than an 1/8" cut and there is almost no bearing surface to keep the tool steady. The main way to reduce the force required is to take as thin a shaving as possible. This also means that you need to have the tool as sharp as possible. Skewing the tool also helps but is not always possible on a tight concave cut.

Wax on the sole can also help a little.

Getting a perfect cut- meaning a continuous unbroken shaving from one end to the other- on a curve with a spokeshave is one of the more challenging things to do IMO.

[Oskar Sedell]

agree on above. I also find that when I get chatter in the first place, it often gets worse. Changing the skew direction or angle helps then, presenting the edge at another angle than the chatter "waves" or "ridges" present.

[lowell holmes]

I strive for translucent shavings when using a spoke shave.

[Dave Beauchesne]

I have a few shaves & recently added the LN Boggs convex shave. They were a joy to use on the edges of 1/8 inch cherry. When I had to use them on the 1 inch wide face of cherry, they worked but chattered. When I used them on 4 inch wide cherry they chattered even more. It was difficult to get a smooth ready to finish surface from the shave - I had to resort to sandpaper. The piece was concave with a radius of about 4 inches. Thoughts?

Depth of cut, angle of attack, skew or not to skew, on, and did I say sharp? Super fine cuts can leave an absolute glassy surface on Ash - Good luck

[Mark Rainey]

Thanks for the advice gentlemen!

[James Pallas]

At least for myself convex shaves are hard to handle. I think you have so many things to consider. Grain changes all over. Very short bearing surface. Blade angle changes with a slight twist of the wrists. I always try to warm up a bit on end grain. This is what I have found by experimenting. It takes more pressure for a round shave, it’s all in the wrists going along the cut, sharp is very good, straight mouth, blade set even, reading the grain well, and lots of luck. Even with everything right it reminds me of that saying about wild cats, hot awls, and butter. Card scrapers are your friends. Sand paper not so much. If you have to go back to the shave that grit will work wonders on that beautifully sharpened iron. Not that good at it yet. Lots of practice over the years. Getting better at chasing down wild cats however. The rest of it needs much improvement.

[Charles Guest]

I have a few shaves & recently added the LN Boggs convex shave. They were a joy to use on the edges of 1/8 inch cherry. When I had to use them on the 1 inch wide face of cherry, they worked but chattered. When I used them on 4 inch wide cherry they chattered even more. It was difficult to get a smooth ready to finish surface from the shave - I had to resort to sandpaper. The piece was concave with a radius of about 4 inches. Thoughts?

Try a convex spokeshave - this one is different than the Boggs shave you have. Kunz is the only current manufacturer of this style I believe. It'll need some tuning, but it's worth having in your arsenal for curved work. It's a bit of an acquired taste, like Scotch:

https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/kunzconvexspokeshave.aspx


(https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/kunzconvexspokeshave.aspx)

[chris carter]

On wider boards I take a little off the left side, then a little off the right side, and then take down the hump in the middle. So three cuts to take one perfectly even cut across the wide width. Works every time. Sometimes I will also skew the shave, which is easier to do on flat or convex cuts, but you can often do it on concave cuts if they aren't to tight.

[brian zawatsky]

Convex shaves are tough to use. Mine is a Stanley 63x as opposed to the LN Boggs, but I believe the issues are similar. Like other people mentioned, sharp really helps. I go way out of my way to be sure that I've honed the cutter as sharp as I can possibly get it. This fixes a lot. I've also found that using a lot of care when setting the cutter depth is necessary, and you have to present the blade to the wood at the right angle. When i get frustrated with chatter I'll grab a piece of scrap and take practice cuts until i find the sweet spot, and then do my damndest to replicate it on the workpiece. Sometimes win, sometimes lose lol
I havent learned to use one well enough yet for it to be a finishing tool, just a shaping tool. I still go to a card scraper after the shave most times.

[Mark Rainey]

At least for myself convex shaves are hard to handle. I think you have so many things to consider. Grain changes all over. Very short bearing surface. Blade angle changes with a slight twist of the wrists. I always try to warm up a bit on end grain. This is what I have found by experimenting. It takes more pressure for a round shave, it’s all in the wrists going along the cut, sharp is very good, straight mouth, blade set even, reading the grain well, and lots of luck. Even with everything right it reminds me of that saying about wild cats, hot awls, and butter. Card scrapers are your friends. Sand paper not so much. If you have to go back to the shave that grit will work wonders on that beautifully sharpened iron. Not that good at it yet. Lots of practice over the years. Getting better at chasing down wild cats however. The rest of it needs much improvement.
Thanks for the advice James

[Mark Rainey]

Try a convex spokeshave - this one is different than the Boggs shave you have. Kunz is the only current manufacturer of this style I believe. It'll need some tuning, but it's worth having in your arsenal for curved work. It's a bit of an acquired taste, like Scotch:

https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/kunzconvexspokeshave.aspx
(https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/kunzconvexspokeshave.aspx)
Thanks for the link Charles.

[Mark Rainey]

On wider boards I take a little off the left side, then a little off the right side, and then take down the hump in the middle. So three cuts to take one perfectly even cut across the wide width. Works every time. Sometimes I will also skew the shave, which is easier to do on flat or convex cuts, but you can often do it on concave cuts if they aren't to tight.

Thanks Chris, interesting approach, I will try it.

[John Keeton]

The terminology used in this thread has been interesting! The OP refers to the Boggs “convex” spokeshave that I assume is the one LN refers to as “curved.” Brian also speaks of convex shaves in referring to his Stanley 63X that Stanley referred to as a round bottom. Charles mentions a convex shave and links to a Kunz (Clifton also makes one with a similar configuration.). Interestingly, LN sells a Boggs “concave” shave in direct contrast to the shape of the Kunz and Clifton shaves.

Kinda reminds me of the old Shakespeare quote - “What’s in a name?”:)

[Mark Rainey]

Convex shaves are tough to use. Mine is a Stanley 63x as opposed to the LN Boggs, but I believe the issues are similar. Like other people mentioned, sharp really helps. I go way out of my way to be sure that I've honed the cutter as sharp as I can possibly get it. This fixes a lot. I've also found that using a lot of care when setting the cutter depth is necessary, and you have to present the blade to the wood at the right angle. When i get frustrated with chatter I'll grab a piece of scrap and take practice cuts until i find the sweet spot, and then do my damndest to replicate it on the workpiece. Sometimes win, sometimes lose lol
I havent learned to use one well enough yet for it to be a finishing tool, just a shaping tool. I still go to a card scraper after the shave most times. Brian, thanks for the input. I will try to get the blade razor sharp.

[Mark Rainey]

The terminology used in this thread has been interesting! The OP refers to the Boggs “convex” spokeshave that I assume is the one LN refers to as “curved.” Brian also speaks of convex shaves in referring to his Stanley 63X that Stanley referred to as a round bottom. Charles mentions a convex shave and links to a Kunz (Clifton also makes one with a similar configuration.). Interestingly, LN sells a Boggs “concave” shave in direct contrast to the shape of the Kunz and Clifton shaves.

Kinda reminds me of the old Shakespeare quote - “What’s in a name?”:)
John, yes, I should be calling my spokeshave "round" instead of convex. In a sense the sole is convex, but in a different direction than a "convex" shave, which is the opposite of a concave shave. The "convex" shave does not seem to be as common as the flat, curved or concave.
'
'

[James Pallas]

Got to thinking about what I really do about chatter. All of the normal things in line, sharp etc. I back off the iron until it stops. Skewing can help. If all fails I go to the card scraper. I consider a spokeshave a medium tool. Draw knife coarse, spokeshave medium, card scraper fine. I can’t compete with Brian Boggs who can shave the fuzz off of a ripe peach without cutting the skin.

[Prashun Patel]

"draw knife coarse". You haven't seen Curtiss Buchanan work one ;). The DK is in fact a way underutilized tool IMHO. Unlike soled tools with a mouth, though, it requires understanding of the grain.

I concur with Chris C, below: take off the corners, then the hump in the middle up until the final passes.

Convex spokeshaves are difficult because they require the user to maintain the same angle through the pull. This is much easier in a tight curve, where the radius of the piece and the sole of the ss are close to matching. On shallower curves, the sole can rock and react through the cut. This can contribute to chatter. Good skill to master. I submit that for shallower curves, it's not only easier to use a flat bottomed shave, but in fact better, because it can 'fair' the curve more true than a convex bottom shave.

[ken hatch]

I just went back through the posts and there is no mention of using a bevel up (wood stock) shave. A bevel up shave is a finish tool vs. a bevel down hogging tool and is available with both flat and round soles.

ken

[ken hatch]

"draw knife coarse". You haven't seen Curtiss Buchanan work one ;). The DK is in fact a way underutilized tool IMHO. Unlike soled tools with a mouth, though, it requires understanding of the grain.

I concur with Chris C, below: take off the corners, then the hump in the middle up until the final passes.

Convex spokeshaves are difficult because they require the user to maintain the same angle through the pull. This is much easier in a tight curve, where the radius of the piece and the sole of the ss are close to matching. On shallower curves, the sole can rock and react through the cut. This can contribute to chatter. Good skill to master. I submit that for shallower curves, it's not only easier to use a flat bottomed shave, but in fact better, because it can 'fair' the curve more true than a convex bottom shave.

Prashun,

I'm not at Buchanan level but when in the groove a draw knife can be an amazing tool and many of the same skills apply to using a shave.

ken

[James Pallas]

Prashun, Leonardo could have painted with a feather duster, he was just a little better with a finer tool.😀

[Prashun Patel]

Not to derail the original conversation, but my point is that a drawknife can be thought of as a carving tool, not only capable but really appropriate for a lot of final shaping work. It requires cooperating grain.

[Mike Cornwall]

I’ve been wondering if a used-up triangular file, ground hollow and honed for a scraping edge, would be worth the trouble of preparing for finishing out concave edges. Haven’t done anything about it yet.