New Handtool questions.

[Zachary Caldwell]

I am sure this is going to get a lot of different answers. I was awarded a ticket for a weekend hand tool class from my boss. I am a complete novice at handtools, but have really wanted to get into incorporating them into my wood shop. My hand tool collection is limited, but I have been wanting to add to it and figured this was a good reason to justify. The wife seems cool with it too. :) The class listed some items that I am kind of curious about because my knowledge is not to extensive in the hand tool world.

A. Crosscut saw that would cut 11 1/4". It also mentioned a tenon saw. Do I need/want both? Also, I am looking at getting a couple of other useful saws to and would take suggestions.
B. Smooth Plane (recommendations)
C. Block Plane (recommendations)
D. Also, side note I was wondering about suggestions on sharpening stones.
E. Wheel marking gauge recomendations.

The class is in a month, so I need start ordering some of this stuff this weekend.

This may be a lot to answer, but would appreciate any feedback that is given. I am a firm believer in spending a little more for a quality product. We are building a bookcase all out of poplar and handtools.

Thanks!

[ken hatch]

I am sure this is going to get a lot of different answers. I was awarded a ticket for a weekend hand tool class from my boss. I am a complete novice at handtools, but have really wanted to get into incorporating them into my wood shop. My hand tool collection is limited, but I have been wanting to add to it and figured this was a good reason to justify. The wife seems cool with it too. :) The class listed some items that I am kind of curious about because my knowledge is not to extensive in the hand tool world.

A. Crosscut saw that would cut 11 1/4". It also mentioned a tenon saw. Do I need/want both? Also, I am looking at getting a couple of other useful saws to and would take suggestions.
B. Smooth Plane (recommendations)
C. Block Plane (recommendations)
D. Also, side note I was wondering about suggestions on sharpening stones.
E. Wheel marking gauge recomendations.

The class is in a month, so I need start ordering some of this stuff this weekend.

This may be a lot to answer, but would appreciate any feedback that is given. I am a firm believer in spending a little more for a quality product. We are building a bookcase all out of poplar and handtools.

Thanks!

Zackery,

Now you have stepped in it :D

ken

[Scott Winners]

What hand tools do you already own?

Are you signed up for the megan Fitzpatrick class in Anchorage at the end of Feb? That bookcase?

If that one or similar you can likely get short test drives on a lot of really nice hand tools others bring to the class.

There are going to be as many different answers as respondents in this thread. We all have our little quirks which is why there is so much variety available.

Can you maybe borrow the suggested tools from friends or family and then find out what you really like at the class?

[Zachary Caldwell]

I have some Japanese saws, block plane, chisels and otheer misc. items.

[David Bassett]

I am sure this is going to get a lot of different answers. ...

Instead of telling you what I'd get, I'm going to suggest talking to the instructor and asking for specific recommendations. I find I have a better class experience when I'm using the tools most appropriate for the techniques the instructor is teaching. Later I can take time to adjust the instructions to match with the tools I have, or want to have, but first learning them exactly as taught makes for a better class. For me at least. (Plus, there may be loaner options you can arrange. If so, you can go shopping when you have a better idea what you really want.)

[Jim Koepke]

I have some Japanese saws, block plane, chisels and otheer misc. items.


A. Crosscut saw that would cut 11 1/4". It also mentioned a tenon saw. Do I need/want both? Also, I am looking at getting a couple of other useful saws to and would take suggestions.
B. Smooth Plane (recommendations)
C. Block Plane (recommendations)
D. Also, side note I was wondering about suggestions on sharpening stones.
E. Wheel marking gauge recomendations.

This is quite a list for someone just getting started and on a deadline. Are there going to be any tools in the class you can use?

On sharpening stones, do you have a heated shop? My water stones require a weather check this time of year. It is easier to learn sharpening on water stones but frozen water doesn't help. It took me learning to sharpen on water stones before being able to get oilstones to work.

My most used marking gauge is a Tite Mark from Glenn Drake. It will set you back a bit but is worth it. There are some knock offs of the Tite Mark. My preference is to support the original tool maker at times. There are a couple of Stanley #65 pin style gauges that are used regularly.

What block plane do you already have? My reason for asking is you have it listed in your tools to acquire list. If it is decent you may already be set.

My normal recommendation for a smoothing plane would be a Stanley/Bailey #3 or #4 buy you likely do not have the time to buy one of those and get it ready before class.

Saws would be the same unless you know how to sharpen a saw you will likely need to buy of the rack.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

JK and David are on point with this.

Congratulations on taking the course of instruction, it will accelerate your progress to building things.

In my classroom experience, there's always someone with extra tools on hand.

Most of my classes revealed to me tools I would NOT use again. I expect your current kit has 80% of what you need.

****

Your sharpening materials should be guided by your shop space : if you don't have a sink, waterstones are problematic. However, if you commit to Japanese Kanna - they're excellent.

[Phil Mueller]

Agree, talk to the instructor and see if he/she has any recommendations and if there will be the opportunity to try other’s tools. But, if you’re looking to buy you can’t go wrong with either Lie Nielsen or Veritas...both planes and saws. They will work out of the box with a little honing on the plane blades. I’d consider either company lifetime tools. If, at some point, you find it’s not your thing, you can resell for a large percentage of what you paid. Second on the Tite Mark gauge.

[Robert Engel]

It can be a black hole “buy no tool before you need it”.

Take a look at the Wood River planes sold by Woodcraft. I’ve been very satisfied. My only “knock” would be compared to Lie Nielsen they ar not ready to use out of the box. The blade back will need flattening and honing, regardless IMO an excellent value. You can look around for vintage Stanley, etc check Timetestedtools.com. I would avoid EBay.

I use a combination of diamond and water stones. Honing to 8000 will get the job done. Grits I use most- 300, 600, 800, 1250 diamond (DMT Diasharp I don’t recommend the mesh stone. 4000, 8000 water (4K/8k Norton combo)

The Veritas combo saw set is a good place to start. About any saw will fo for a panel saw.

Igaging makes some decent quality affordable products such wheel gauges, marking knives, etc.

[Zachary Caldwell]

Thanks for all the replies. I don't have to have the tools for the class, they will have loaners. I just kinda like having my own tool. Plus it just adds to my collection. I do have a heated 2 car garage that I work out of.

[Zachary Caldwell]

The plane that block plane that I have is a Kunz.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Wow, that is a lot to digest. My first bit of advice is to spend as little as possible until you have tried some things to see what you prefer. For example, some people strongly prefer a back-saw and some strongly prefer a Japanese pull saw. I have not really tried the Japanese pull saw but I do like my back-saws :-)

That said,



D. Also, side note I was wondering about suggestions on sharpening stones.


If you have nothing, you can always start cheaper and go with sandpaper on float glass or similar. I have a flat piece of granite that I use. The thing is that you can get things very sharp on sandpaper, but eventually the cost catches up with you; and you want the correct type of sandpaper. Even with all of my stones, I am considering buying some of this:

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/sheets-and-belts/68943-diamond-lapping-film

If you will sharpen a plane blade or a chisel, are you able to hold the angle correctly. If not, you probably want a honing guide. You can go fancy

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/guides/51868-veritas-mk-ii-deluxe-honing-guide-set

or much less expensive like an Eclipse honing guide (closer to $20).

If you have a super hard modern steel, you probably need a "better" stone that can handle harder metals.

When you decide on what stones you want for real, these are your options:

- Diamond Plate. Fast and I know people who swear by them. They have a tendency to leave deep scratches that are hard to get out. Did I mention that they are fast.

- If you cannot have a mess. Consider something like the Spyderco Ceramic stones. They say that you do not even need water.

- Water stones, well, I bought some, so I think that I have one from King, one from Bester, and a couple of Shapton water stones. Other's here can provide better insight, but I would consider the Sigma Power Select II or stick with the Shapton stones that I like so much. But if you get a water stone, you need to be able to flatten it. I use a course diamond stone to do this.

I sharpen first with my Tormek so that I have a hollow grind. You probably will not buy an expensive Tormek, so you probably will NOT have a hollow grind. With the hollow grind, I can then easily free hand onto a stone so I do not even use the honing guide. I go directly to the Shapton 5000 stone, which has a poor reputation as opposed to the 6000 stone (if I remember correctly), but it works for me. From there, I go directly to my 16000 stone and things are sharp. Most people stop at 10K or 13K. What you choose to use will decide what stones you choose to use. So, in a perfect world, someone near you will let you try some things so that you can decide on a work flow that is good for you. Without the hollow grind you probably need to go as low as 1K, but others will provide better inside since I do not do it that way. Also, as a side note, you might find that you are perfectly happy with a 1K stone and a strop.

Too bad you will not have a visit to Ohio in the USA in the near future, we could play with stones.

I usually use sandpaper for things like flattening the back. I would do the same for establishing a bevel if I did not have a tormek and a slow speed grinder. People are just as happy with other similar means (worksharp, etc).



E. Wheel marking gauge recomendations.


I like my Veritas standard wheel marking gauge. Nothing fancy. No idea what is easily available near you; or for reasonable shipping.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/marking-gauges/59455-veritas-standard-wheel-marking-gauge



B. Smooth Plane (recommendations)
C. Block Plane (recommendations)


First problem is that you want these to be sharp and ready to go when you get to class (I assume). I was so terrified of how to make sure the plane worked that I was almost paralyzed. It is why my first plane was a Lie Nielsen #4. I knew that it would arrive ready to use. OK, they say you can hone it before you use it, but, it is basically sharp and flat. Same is true for Lee Valley tools as well. I have never had a new Woodriver plane, but, I recently flattened the back of a Woodriver plane blade and it was essentially flat out of the box. So, the primary question I have for the planes is: for your needs, does it need to show up a user, or, do you know someone who can help you make it a user?

Step 1: Flatten the back. Depending on the back, I might start with 100, 180, 400, or 600 grit wet dry sandpaper. OK, at 100 I might not use wet. Then just keep going finer up to 2000. That is how I do it anyway. It is actually pretty easy, but you need to have the stuff to do it.

Step 2: Establish the bevel. If you have an old plane, this might need to be done. Maybe not. With a honing guide, you can work through the grits with sand paper.

Step 3: Sharpen that bevel. So, can you free hand this? Lots of people recommend it, but I find it difficult especially with wider blades and/or thinner blades. I picked up a small block plane from a friend and I was able to do it by hand with a hollow grind, but it was tricky because it was so thin.

I really like my Lie Nielsen planes. My friends really like their Lee Valley planes. I own many old planes that work just fine, but I had to tune them up. Do things like flatten the bottom of the frog, etc. Do not always need to do this, but sometimes. This is probably the cheapest way to go, but it can be hit and miss on what you get.



A. Crosscut saw that would cut 11 1/4". It also mentioned a tenon saw. Do I need/want both? Also, I am looking at getting a couple of other useful saws to and would take suggestions.


If you need a crosscut saw, I assume a standard saw. I bought some tuned up hand saws some years back from David Weaver who is no longer on this forum. I think that shipping from the USA would be high other wise I would say ping Mike Allen, I think he is selling a few saws right now. If he says the saw is ready to go, it is ready to go.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?279829-Vintage-Hand-Saws-%96-1-Free-To-US-Military-And-3-FS-Benefitting-Good-Cause

Never used this:

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/saws/panel/41758-professional-handsaw

I really like my Veritas Doevetail saw, and the price is good

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/saws/dovetail/64007-veritas-dovetail-saws

I also like my Lie Nielsen and my Bad Axe saw, lots of great saw makers, but the Veritas is a really nice saw for the money.

[Zachary Caldwell]

As for the stones what do you use to flatten the stone? I've watched videos of sharpening but can't seem to find one on this. I do have some japanese water stones that were given to me not sure on brand.

[David Bassett]

As for the stones what do you use to flatten the stone? I've watched videos of sharpening but can't seem to find one on this. I do have some japanese water stones that were given to me not sure on brand.

Jon Broida, who specializes in Japanese knives and sharpening them, has a whole series of videos about sharpening (& using them). I've always found his instruction easy to understand (though often too advanced to do me any practical good.) A quick search found one about flattening Japanese water stones. It probably has more info than you really need, but it will give you everything you need to get the job done well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB&v=ZFahNJEkTGg

PS- I like Jon's diamond flattening plate. It's cheaper than the usually recommended Atoma, (DiaFlat, or other), and I trust it will be adequately flat and provide good service (unlike some of the even cheaper generic plates off of Amazon & eBay.) Certainly, I've never found any inadequacies in mine.

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

The advice already given, to wait and try out some tools and get more advice during the course is probably the best option. However, if you are like me and no amount of logic is going to stop you getting some tools before the course then I don't think you could be dissapointed with the following if you are after specific recommendations;

A. A Lie Nielsen thin plate tapered 14" crosscut saw and a thin plate tapered LN dovetail saw.

B. A Veritas DX60 block plane or Lie Nielsen 102 bronze if you want a smaller block plane.

C. A Lie Nielsen No.4 - cast iron or bronze. I think the cast iron is the better user but I have the bronze and it's great too - just needs a bit of wax as the bronze is stickier IMO.

D. As suggested some good waterstones like Sigma Power Select and an atoma diamond plate for flattening. These used to be available as a set of three stones with the diamond plate at a reasonable price.

E. A veritas micro-adjust marking gauge is very nice and reasonably priced.

These are premium tools with a premium price and I don't know your budget. What I can say is I doubt you would be dissapointed and you could also sell all of these in the future for minimal loss if you did happen to change your mind.

Enjoy.

Cheers, Dom

[Jim Koepke]

A veritas micro-adjust marking gauge is very nice and reasonably priced.

An old post compares the Veritas micro-adjust marking gauge to the Tite-Mark Gauge >https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133966

In short, the Tite-Mark is easier to use, especially one handed, and is less likely to roll off the bench.

jtk

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

An old post compares the Veritas micro-adjust marking gauge to the Tite-Mark Gauge >https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133966

In short, the Tite-Mark is easier to use, especially one handed, and is less likely to roll off the bench.

jtk

Yeah ok cool. I've never owned one. I guess it's just a price trade- off then. In Australia a Veritas is about $100- vs $165- for the drake.

Cheers, Dom

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

I am sure this is going to get a lot of different answers. I was awarded a ticket for a weekend hand tool class from my boss. I am a complete novice at handtools, but have really wanted to get into incorporating them into my wood shop. My hand tool collection is limited, but I have been wanting to add to it and figured this was a good reason to justify. The wife seems cool with it too. :) The class listed some items that I am kind of curious about because my knowledge is not to extensive in the hand tool world.

A. Crosscut saw that would cut 11 1/4". It also mentioned a tenon saw. Do I need/want both? Also, I am looking at getting a couple of other useful saws to and would take suggestions.
B. Smooth Plane (recommendations)
C. Block Plane (recommendations)
D. Also, side note I was wondering about suggestions on sharpening stones.
E. Wheel marking gauge recommendations.

The class is in a month, so I need start ordering some of this stuff this weekend.

This may be a lot to answer, but would appreciate any feedback that is given. I am a firm believer in spending a little more for a quality product. We are building a bookcase all out of poplar and handtools.

Thanks!

A: The Veritas tenon saw is a great saw that is also fairly inexpensive as far as new, quality hand saws go. The only problem I've had with mine is the spine is quite thick and it sometimes obstructs your view of the line you are trying to cut to.

B. No specific recommendation. Antique Stanley/Bailey/Record/Millers Falls #4 or #5 planes are great if you can refurbish them. This would also be the most inexpensive route.

C. I don't use block planes often, but again, antique Stanley or similar would be good.

D. I used water stones before moving to diamond plates. I have found diamond plates to be the easiest method of hand sharpening that require the least amount of upkeep. Sharpening is very much a personal endeavor, and no two woodworkers seem to have the same method, so maybe just try what you think you would like until you find it.

E. I use the Veritas Wheel Marking Gauge. I did not like this gauge at first, but I realized it's because I was pushing too hard on it. You really only need very light pressure at first, and then you can go heavier if you want.

[J. Greg Jones]

An old post compares the Veritas micro-adjust marking gauge to the Tite-Mark Gauge >https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133966

In short, the Tite-Mark is easier to use, especially one handed, and is less likely to roll off the bench.

jtk
I don’t know which Veritas micro-adjust Dom was referring to, but they have a newer model now which is much nicer. For some reason, they also still sell the one you reviewed. I have the new model, but I still prefer the TM.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/marking-gauges/75849-veritas-micro-adjust-wheel-marking-gauge

[Jim Koepke]

I don’t know which Veritas micro-adjust Dom was referring to, but they have a newer model now which is much nicer. For some reason, they also still sell the one you reviewed. I have the new model, but I still prefer the TM.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/marking-gauges/75849-veritas-micro-adjust-wheel-marking-gauge

Thanks for the update. My search on the Lee Valley site for > Veritas micro--adjust marking gauge < brought up the old one. This new model looks easier to use but still looks like a challenge for one handed use. Recently my thoughts have been leaning towards buying another Tite-Mark for times when two gauges are needed. Though having a couple of other wooden gauges tends to throw a bit of cold water on those thoughts

jtk

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

I have the older style micro-adjust Veritas Wheel Marking Gauge, and sometimes when I adjust it, I swear it's not moving at all and it can be frustrating. I still like using the gauge overall though.

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

I don’t know which Veritas micro-adjust Dom was referring to, but they have a newer model now which is much nicer. For some reason, they also still sell the one you reviewed. I have the new model, but I still prefer the TM.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/marking-gauges/75849-veritas-micro-adjust-wheel-marking-gauge

Yes I was referring to the new one. I have the older style as well and the new one is much better. I wasn't a fan of the adjuster on the older one.

Cheers, Dom