Justifying tool purchases for Hobby Work

[Patrick Irish]

My 9-5 is special education assessments. Keeps me busy and I take a good amount of work home. We're having our first child end of June which will add a completely different dynamic to our lives.

Buddy of mine had a good point regarding spending money on expensive tools, specifically a festool domino and tracksaw. He doesn't have either and neither do I but we want both. He pointed out the time saved in setup and jig making makes these tools desirable and I hadn't thought of it that way really. Often time I'll spend half the day dialing in a jig or fixing a tool before I even get going on the project.

Something like a domino or tracksaw significantly speed that up but at a cost.

I'm starting a rocking chair and place I got my wood from, the seller pulled out his festool ts75 track saw to cut it down and I was blown away. I don't use sheet good often and when I do I have home depot cut them down. That ts75 would sure be nice and also be able to cut 45s in thick stuff like slabs and table tops.

How do you rationalize a tool purchase?

[lowell holmes]

In the mean time a 1x4 strait edge makes a good rip guide.

[Jacob Mac]

I don't. If I have the money to buy it and I want it,I get it. I do always try to find it used.

Problem is, most of the time I don't have the money

[Von Bickley]

There is no way that I can justify a domino or a track saw. I've gotten by this long without them so I'll just keep on doing what I have always done.

[Richard Coers]

This isn't the 60s & 70s. The idea of leaving your wife to care for the baby while you go to your shop and enjoy the solitude while you make noise and dust is LONG OVER. Unless you have some sort of special relationship, or have a nanny in the planning, I suggest you wait at least 5 years before thinking about dropping that kind of cash on tools. Kids eat up a tremendous amount of time and effort. Sorry to say your woodworking hours will be very limited. If you add a second child, the parenting effort goes up exponentially. In that case you won't need tools for about 14 years, if soccer and other activities are factored in.

[Tom Dixon]

Every woodworker or for that mater metal worker, motor head, gardener, etc. has a threshold for when to buy a new tool and justify it. Depending on your means and whether your significant other has an opinion, most people have a "need a tool for a project budget" threshold that is usually proportional to the total cost of the project. It is much harder to justify a tool just because you know it will make some undefined future projects easier, more precise, etc. My favorite pastime is to invent a project that cannot be built without a specific tool and therefore I must both build this project and buy that tool.

[Mark Hockenberg]

Patrick - This sounds like a perfect way to buy Festool at 50% of retail. You and your buddy each go in half and share these tools. You mentioned speeding up your work, but at a cost. Think about your opportunity cost as the trade-off.

I own a Festool track saw and Domino and both are game changers. The track saw is also great for a straight line rip, it's not just for sheet goods.

My Festool tools allow me to achieve better results with much higher efficiency. They are so nice that I enjoy woodworking more than ever. So for me, it's easy to rationalize.

[Günter VögelBerg]

I just remind myself of the money I used to spend on booze and pills and weed and coke, then suddenly woodworking seems cheap and sobriety seems even more pleasant

[John K Jordan]

How do you rationalize a tool purchase?

It all depends on the level of your disposable (hobby) income, after the household budget is met, the family recreational/vacation budget is considered, the emergency and medical fund is fully loaded, chosen charities are considered, and with a new child on the way, the college fund is factored in! No way I would stretch things to buy expensive tools.

With an large enough excess, no justification or rationalization is needed except what involves sharing with a spouse who may have different interests! For example, my Lovely Bride of 50 years loves to travel the world so I haven't bought that new woodworking tool yet, the new 3500 diesel truck with leather seats, radar collision control systems, on-board internet! (ah, I did recently get an excavator to move logs...)

JKJ

[Andrew More]

Generally speaking it needs to be a tool I'm going to use for a project I already have in mind. Otherwise you just start accumulating a lot of junk. In the case of the domino there are a number of other methods, so it's more of a luxury than a necessity. Same thing with a track saw.

After that you have to ask if you have the money to afford it. If you're planning on putting it on a credit card, you don't have the money. If you don't have a good sized reserve in the bank, you don't have the money.

Finally I'd ignore Richard. I've got two kids, and it's rough for the first year or so, but after that the work load starts to drop off as you or your wife is nolonger up half the night feeding the child.

[Mark Rainey]

I agree with many above. When my children were young, I limited my woodworking time and really enjoyed family time. I am glad I made that choice. I cherish those years more than my best piece of furniture. Even now, though I can afford expensive tools like a domino I hesitate to accumulate tools and will enjoy taking my time chopping a mortise and sawing a tenon by hand. I enjoy woodworking - it is a hobby.

[Edwin Santos]

I just remind myself of the money I used to spend on booze and pills and weed and coke, then suddenly woodworking seems cheap and sobriety seems even more pleasant

Boy, I was going to offer an opinion, but I just can't top that rationale.
Good for you.

I will say this though, especially when it comes to Festool products; as long as you've taken reasonable care of the tool, you should be able to sell it for most of what you paid and there's a ready market for doing so. So at least your decision is not an irrevocable one.

[Jim Becker]

Justification for any tool purchase is a very subjective thing, Patrick, and that's true whether you are a hobbyist or a pro...or both. "What" that justification is might be different for those scenarios, however. Or maybe not.

Most of my tool purchases, both major/stationary tools and electric handhelds, were made while I was still strictly a hobbyist. The exception was my CNC machine and that came after I decided to open my part-time retirement business, so it was more a matter of timing. Early on...like when I first started...like any inexperienced person, I paid too much attention to price, not realizing how much that would cost me. And yes, I meant that wording. Stuff you have to replace early and often is a lot more costly than buying something "at least really decent" the first time. Eventually, I adopted the strategy of buying the best I could afford, even if I had to wait a little longer to get it. What I do try to avoid is buying something on a whim or that would have limited use for the projects I do unless there was something uniquely special about it that made it "necessary" despite that limited use. I recently bought some very specialized tools for guitar making that fit into that category, although I believe that if I continued with that "hobby within my hobby/business" those will also pay off over time.

I somewhat agree with your friend that better engineered tools, including those that are part of a system like Festool, have redeeming factors that can mitigate their higher initial costs. That's been my experience and all of the tools I mostly bought in the mid to late 2000s still look and run like new. So when I take what I paid and divide it up over the years I've had use of them so far, the "cost" to me is very palatable. I'd probably feel similarly if I had equipped myself with the "top of the line" tools from other brands. Better engineered tools and systems doesn't necessarily mean the most expensive. That's not universal for sure.

So ... justification. Only you can really answer that as well as support it financially. Sometimes we do need to choose "get er done" and go with something that's capable but not ideal. The Festool track saw is really nice and I highly recommend it, for example. But I'll not ignore the reality that you CAN do similar work with a regular circular saw and a home-made fence. Using the latter takes more work and care to get the same level of accuracy, but you can do it. Here you have to balance money with your time which you mention is a key factor with your current circumstances. Pay more; get the work done faster and easier. Pay less; get the work done with a little more time and effort. (that's specific to a track saw relative to context)

And Domino...the ONE Festool that I think many folks could benefit from no matter what color/pricepoint they prefer for all other tools. It's that good. IMHO.

[John K Jordan]

I agree with many above. When my children were young, I limited my woodworking time and really enjoyed family time. ...

We think alike! I wasn't doing much woodworking then, but when my children were very young I decided to quite flying airplanes as a hobby so I could concentrate on them. It was great fun but a great expense. I still needed plenty of hobbies but stuck more with things I could do in and around the house like music, art, and building things outdoors they could climb on and through! When older we got things like dirt bikes and 4-wheelers, also good for quality family fun time. :)

I was also fortunate to work at home all the years when the youngest needed special attention, from grade school through middle school - I could take him to school every morning and be there in five minutes if necessary during the day.

Now with grandkids there's a whole new opportunity for investing in quality time and some of that is in the shop. Things just get better and better!

425310425311425312425314425313

The 9-year-old and I built a kaleidoscope last week. This weekend it's pinewood derby time.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Having been in the construction trades all my life, except for a six year stint teaching (shop classes,) only two tools I ever bought didn't pay for them selves. First is a Unisaw, which resides exactly where it landed in shop over ten years ago, and second is a Bosch Bulldog rotor hammer which I bought just before closing up the business. I could sell Uni for over twice what I paid for it, so money isn't lost. So as a hobbiest, I can't condone, nor condem buying tools

[Bill Carey]

I just remind myself of the money I used to spend on booze and pills and weed and coke, then suddenly woodworking seems cheap and sobriety seems even more pleasant


2nd that - coming up on 36 years.

Last year we worked out how much I would spend on getting a better shop, and that's what we spent. Did I get all the high end tools I wanted - nope. But the family - kids, grandkids and great grandkids - got what they needed or wanted and I can still make saw dust, and the occasional "thing". Balancing priorities is needed, and sometimes we need to listen to a voice of reason to get our priorities right. Fortunately for me I married that voice of reason 40 years ago.

[Andy D Jones]

You really only have to justify your purchases to yourself, and perhaps your significant other or business partners.

We each have a different view of the 'value' of our money, our time, our effort, and our enjoyment.

We'll all tell you what we like and dislike about our purchases; just ask! But take it with a grain of salt. Our decisions were made in accordance with our values, not yours.

Andy - Arlington TX

[johnny means]

My kids grew up in my shop with me. Building them their first beds blossomed into a nice little business. I got nothing to say about justifying tools, but the idea that little ones and woodworking don't go together is misguided.

[Prashun Patel]

Buy what you need for the current project, not what you THINK you will need for a project you have not yet begun.

The domino and track saw do not reduce the need for jigs or more tools. I suspect you like most of us hobbyists do much of this for the challenge. That means constantly considering new techniques and therefore new jigs and tools. I didn’t say we always succumb to the temptation, but there is always another “domino”out there that we think is the Holy Grail.

There is no such Grail. Domino does come close, though ;)

[Johnny Barr]

When I had my first child my wife actually encouraged me to take up woodwork and I bought a radial arm saw and a few other minor tools. I built all our beds did all the shelving throughout the house and made all the coffee tables and kitchen table over a few months. In the long run I saved way more than the radial arm was worth. As a hobbyist justification, therefore was easy.
Just another way to look at it.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I really can't add anything to what has already been said. It might seem super expensive now, but you'll have it for the next 15 years+.

I have a few Festool products, accumulated over the past 8 years. Of the two I would replace in a nano second are the Domino and the Tracksaw.

[Jerry Wright]

Ever wonder how the craftsman who built the furniture displayed at Winterthur in Wilmington. DE managed without Festool? Just sayin'😀

[Jim Dwight]

I used to justify tools by the money we were saving on the furniture they allowed me to build. That worked well for us with me making all the beds, one set of kitchen cabinets, Kitchen table and chairs, etc.. But I couldn't justify "nicer" tools like my SawStop PCS that way. Or at least I did not. I also did not justify my Domino that way. My personal theory on Festools is to only buy them when cheaper alternatives are not available. There is no direct competitor to a domino so I bought one. But I think a Bosch jigsaw is about as good as the Festool, from what I read, so I use a Bosch. My Bosch 1250DEVS is pretty close to the bigger Rotex sander and I like it a lot.

Do when I justified tools this way, I waited for a project I could not easily do without the next tool and bought it. My late wife totally went along with that theory. She typically encouraged me to get tools sooner - but only after she saw I could make useful things she liked.

I would not get a Festool tracksaw unless you really need the depth of cut of the 75. I like my DeWalt and the Makita is favored by many. Kreg has an interesting saw too. For most tools, there is a middle level price tool that will be nearly as good/productive as the festool. My DeWalt's depth adjustment is not as nice to use as a festool, for instance, but it works just fine. And the motor is bigger, the depth of cut slightly more and with track it was about half as much.

Another thing that could justify a Festool is if you will transport the tools a lot. Festool does a very good job with their Systainers setting you up for moving the tool to the job. But in a shop, I think the systainer for my domino just wasted space so it is in storage.

I am not saying this is terrible but I remember an old cartoon from a Fine Woodworking about a guy with a really nice shop full of really nice tools. Somebody was asking his wife what he made in it. She said nothing, once the shop was done he hasn't done a thing. That is the opposite of my theory. I like nicer tools but only to get useful projects for myself or my family built.

A jig with a plunge router will make nicer mortises than a Domino. It will take more time but will not prevent you from making anything. A hollow chisel mortiser makes rougher mortises than a domino but they work just fine. I have done mortises all these ways. But at this point, I can afford to buy tools just because I want them. So I bought a XL with a complete set of cutters down to 5mm but without the pre-made tenons. That is partially the cost but also because they would take up a lot of space I don't really have in my little shop. It is very easy to make the tenons (when in a shop with a table saw and planner). I also like to make wider tenons than the pre-made dominos when that is what fits best in the project.

[Jim Becker]

Ever wonder how the craftsman who built the furniture displayed at Winterthur in Wilmington. DE managed without Festool? Just sayin'
It's absolutely true that fine work can be done with modest or more traditional tools...there are millions/billions of good examples of that. It's also true that some modern tools make things easier. It's nice to have choices and as has been noted by multiple folks, "justification" is a personal, subjective thing relative to where on that spectrum a purchase might fall.

[Brian W Evans]

Lots of good advice here. I agree with the following:



Kids are ridiculously expensive (I had to spend almost $110k on daycare alone for two kids and know people who have spent much more)
Your time will be quite limited for at least 2-3 years after each child.
Consider devoting your time to your children as much as possible. They grow up FAR faster than you expect. Woodworking isn't going anywhere.
Consider waiting a year before making this decision. Being a parent radically changes your priorities.
A Domino and a track saw will speed up your work and will retain a lot of resale value
If you're young and going to spend money, buy the best you can reasonably afford.


I will add that I often find it convenient to have my workshop to use for household repairs and upgrades. I don't think I've ever used a Domino for household stuff, but my tracksaw has definitely been useful around the house.

Congratulations on the upcoming birth of your child!

[Rich Engelhardt]

How do you rationalize a tool purchase?
There are such things as used.....
Festool does sting quite a bit at first, but, in the long run, almost all of their tools will bring a smile of satisfaction to your face as you use them.
I justified my TS55EQ track saw purchase this way:
- I was using a low end Ryobi circular saw & a shop made guide to break down a sheet of B/C plywood. Halfway through the cut, the blade bound - the plywood tipped off the supports & left me standing there with a stalled saw- grinding frantically due to the blade binding in the cut, me trying frantically to free the saw while not having the plywood fall. I ended up throwing the saw at the plywood and jumping back out of harm's way. Thankfully, the breaker tripped at some point in that mess.
I ruined the plywood and I probably didn't do the saw any good.
I went inside - shopped around for a better circular saw. A top end circular saw was going to run me about $200 - by the time I added a good blade. I was about 1/3 the way to a TS55EQ ($500-something at the time w/55" track and $89 for another).
I priced good hardwood plywood and it ran about $120 for a 4x8 sheet. I remembered the trashed sheet of B/C @ that point and headed out the door to run to Hartville Hardware to pick up the Festool.

It was easy to justify spending the extra money since over the years, the Festool has more than repaid the original investment.

I no longer use it though. I've since added a cordless Makita track saw. The cordless allows me to take it right to the supplier and cut my sheet goods down to their final exact dimensions - and load the cut down pieces in my Hyundai Kona ( sub compact SUV) - so - I no longer have to have the expense of a van or truck
The Makita is almost as good as the Festool. They are close enough that I pick up the Makita all the time. One of these days, I'll sell the Festool.

[Mark Bolton]

Do yourself a favor and dont limit yourself to getting stuck on the cost of the Festool. Im not a Festool fan though there will be a Domino one day when a project will pay for it or there is enough regular work for it in the shop that it wouldnt spend the majority of its time in the cabinet.

You can go to places like CPO outlets and by factory recondition tools that will land to you looking basically like new with a full warranty for far less money than new. I dont use a track saw often in the shop but it is handy when breaking down large counter top blanks, solid surface, and so on. I am not going to pay for a Festool or a Mafell thats going to sit in the cabinet 95% of its life. They are all pretty much the same tool when it comes down to it with only very subtle differences. A Makita or other brand that can share tracks with several other brands (avoid Dewalt different track) will save you a bunch. We bought the makita and a track for less than $300 bucks. Then bought a 118" track for the same money but the short track will suffice for a lot of work.

For me personally I would avoid sharing a purchase with anyone at any time. Ive just never had any luck with that sort of arrangement though I envy people who have relationships where that works. For me its always a scenario where its not there when you need it, its treated poorly/differently than you would treat your tools. Thing comes back with something broken, augmented, modified, dull blade that "oh I meant to order a new blade" and so on. I have a motto in life, captain your own ship.

The domino is a different animal though no doubt there will be knock-offs about at some point.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, I only have one friend who I ever share tools with and I've known him for 40 years...real close, in other words. His first choice is always to have me do something in my shop or at his home, but on occasion...few and far between...he'll use something of mine to get a job done "in situ". Sharing tools/tool cost is a bit scary to me.

[mike stenson]

The domino is a different animal though no doubt there will be knock-offs about at some point.

I suspect, like the track saw, the day the patent expires (patent date was 2004 so 4 years from now)

There's been a whole host of great comments and I'm really not sure there's anything I can add, other that to echo that enjoying the time with kids is something I would keep as a high priority again. FWIW, the tools that the craftsman in Wilmington used weren't cheap when new either. Nor are hand tools today, really.

It also depends on your goals. I'm not typically buying tools simply to reduce labor costs these days, unless it's a task I really just hate doing. This is the reason I have zero interest in said Domino, I like making mortise and tenon joints too much. With the last purchases, they've either been 'good deals' on items I've been wanting for some time or a project has dictated a need.

[Andrew More]

I suspect, like the track saw, the day the patent expires (patent date was 2004 so 4 years from now)

Interesting, I was just thinking that the Domino had been out for a long time, and no competitors. FWIW, I've seen some people do DIY versions.

One other justification I want to throw out there. I've got an old house, and it has needed a lot of things over the years. When we moved in I had two doors so badly warped that they would not latch, and only stayed closed because of rubbing against the frame. I was quoted a price of ~1K per door, and decided that I was better off spending the money on tools than on buying doors. I was able to outfit an entire shop for less than $2K, and build two doors.

I've since gone over that budget a bit with a couple of things, but it's a reasonable justification to say can I save money building this myself?

[Jared Sankovich]

What is your time worth? And why are you building things rather than just buying them?

Answer those two questions and you should easily know why you need or dont need those shiny new tools

[Mark Bolton]

Interesting, I was just thinking that the Domino had been out for a long time, and no competitors. FWIW, I've seen some people do DIY versions.

DIY versions, as always, take zero into account for your time. Loose tenons (domino) are nothing new. The tool makes it fast and mindless with adjustable fit.


One other justification I want to throw out there. I've got an old house, and it has needed a lot of things over the years. When we moved in I had two doors so badly warped that they would not latch, and only stayed closed because of rubbing against the frame. I was quoted a price of ~1K per door, and decided that I was better off spending the money on tools than on buying doors. I was able to outfit an entire shop for less than $2K, and build two doors.

I've since gone over that budget a bit with a couple of things, but it's a reasonable justification to say can I save money building this myself?

And not to me mean, but if you applied $2.50 an hour to your time your doors likely cost $4k per door and youve got a wife who is pissed at you for spending so much time in the shop, children who have not seen their father, and more than likely some doors that are good but may be not so good.

There is a balance to everything. I have a fully equipped commercial shop. I dont build solid wood interior doors because I cant in good faith stand behind them. While you may get out from under $2k for a pair of doors they may be far far far more expensive than that in the long term.

The notion of "well I will have the tools" is by far the most ludicrous justification for a tool purchase even conceived because it leaves off a delusional notion that you can, or will, build a door equivalent to what you will buy. Other than on rare occasions a small hobby shop will never compete with a purchased door and when they do it will take 3X the hours (free in the minds of some, a value in the mind of your spouse and child).

Again, Fully tooled shop, I cant be profitable building doors.

[Mark Bolton]

What is your time worth? And why are you building things rather than just buying them?

Answer those two questions and you should easily know why you need or dont need those shiny new tools

Amen... amen

[Andrew More]

DIY versions, as always, take zero into account for your time. Loose tenons (domino) are nothing new. The tool makes it fast and mindless with adjustable fit.

So do the DIY versions. Considering the "cheap" version of the domino is $1K, it wouldn't be hard to beat it. I'd guess that most builds are in the 4-8 hour range, and require a $100 router. I'll take $100-200 per hour, other people might come to other conclusions, which is fine.


And not to me mean, but if you applied $2.50 an hour to your time your doors likely cost $4k per door and youve got a wife who is pissed at you for spending so much time in the shop, children who have not seen their father, and more than likely some doors that are good but may be not so good.

Not sure the logic here. I think you could make an equal claim to most of the projects made here. Should everybody just abandon hobby woodworking and buy stuff? I can't speak for everybody, but my wife was fine with the time I spent, and I have a healthy relationship with my kids. It took a long time as a result of maintaining these priorities, but I was able to accomplish more than one thing at a time. Generally speaking I was able to do this when they were napping, or asleep at night or other times when they were occupied.

If people are not maintaining a health relationship with their family, it's not a wood working problem.

I agree with you that there's a trade off to be made. In my case I'd rather have the $2K tools than the pro made doors. Also about half the cost was the shipping, which doesn't benefit anybody.

I'm not sure how much time I spent, but it would be a poor comparison because I did not know what I was doing, and likely did not do things in the most efficient manner possible. As a result of doing something, rather than having it done for me, I gained a lot of useful skills along the way. Those skills are pretty valuable to me, and worth the trade off in time, and will continue to be a benefit to me, as will the tools that I have which can be used for multiple projects. I was also able to make a number of improvements in my efficiency, so that the next set of doors I make will be much more efficient.

As for the doors themselves, the first one has a minor flaw I'm not pleased with, but cannot be fixed. The second one was comparable to a professional product. In either case they're a high step up from the original doors, and address my immediate concerns.

Further to truly be able to apply a "My time is worth X dollars" you need to have a type of work that scales, and will be pay by the hour. I also find that most people do not have jobs that scale, and even if they do, they cannot work 80 hour work weeks and be pleasant, productive and well adjusted human beings. So I cannot say my time is worth $0.50, $2.50 or $25 because it's not really possible for me to pick up extra hours and get paid for them. I could work at McDonald I suppose, but I find wood working more enjoyable.


Again, Fully tooled shop, I cant be profitable building doors.
Not to be mean, but this sounds like a personal problem. Since I got two quotes for these doors at ~$500 or so for the door + shipping, it seems to be very possible. It could be that "fully tooled shop" is not as fully tooled as the two shops I contacted for quotes. I suspect they may have a number of dedicated processes and machines, which I would consider a fully tooled shop, but you may consider to be above and beyond.

I think, having done this a couple of times, I could probably produce another door in about 8 hours of work. Figure in $100 for materials, so $400 for labor, and you've got $50 an hour. This seems a reasonable trade-off to me, obviously YMMV.

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

I suspect, like the track saw, the day the patent expires (patent date was 2004 so 4 years from now)

There's been a whole host of great comments and I'm really not sure there's anything I can add, other that to echo that enjoying the time with kids is something I would keep as a high priority again. FWIW, the tools that the craftsman in Wilmington used weren't cheap when new either. Nor are hand tools today, really.

It also depends on your goals. I'm not typically buying tools simply to reduce labor costs these days, unless it's a task I really just hate doing. This is the reason I have zero interest in said Domino, I like making mortise and tenon joints too much. With the last purchases, they've either been 'good deals' on items I've been wanting for some time or a project has dictated a need.

Yeah, I think it's a bit over-rated, I have a Domino 500 but rarely use it; preferring to cut traditional mortise and tenons 99% of the time. I use it for panel glue-ups for alignment, for quick jigs or for the occasional joinery task on smaller items where precision or high-strength isn't as critical and/or when I really want to save some time on a project that I'm not too passionate about. Not sure I would get rid of it but not sure if I would buy another if it disappeared either.

As for the whole justification thing. I agree with many of the posts - it's completely unique to the individual, their values and situation. There is no right or wrong answer.

Cheers, Dom

[Matt Day]

You’re life is going to change significantly soon. You’ll not only have a baby but you’ll (hopefully) be saving money for the kid’s future, which might mean less disposable income. And let me tell you, from a dad of a 5 & 7 year old, that you’ll have about 4 years before that kid doesn’t need an adults full attention all the time. That likely means less shop time.

Do you and your wife have the financial means to be dropping Festool money on tools, save for college, and pay for diapers (and all the other stuff)? Because if you’re like me you won’t want to push around an umbrella stroller, but instead she’ll out $500 for a Bob stroller. That’s half that track saw right there.

And if your wife is anything like mine, she’s not going to buy the “it’ll make me more efficient” line.

[Randy Heinemann]

No question .... The Domino is one of the most useful and innovative tools on the market. It is the most flexible and easily set up tool I own. I have done some things I might not have attempted otherwise. However when my kids were young, I probably would not have been able to buy one (if they had been available then). Just too expensive for how much I would have had time to use it. Even now, and my kids are grown and out, it sometimes seems like too much for how much I use it. Still I wouldn’t give it up.

I really like the idea of sharing tools with a friend if the 2 of you can work out a schedule and both of you take care of tools well. Otherwise it will not turn out well. Buying a Domino used in mint condition won’t save you much and it’s a risk unless you can see it and try it out first. The fence could be bent. Here could be other unseen damage. If it’s out of warranty you tee just out of luck.

[Mel Fulks]

Easy! You contact Sotheby's and tell them that if they will build and equip a shop for you...you will make them the sole
vendor of your work ,and they can keep 50 percent.
That's the way many 'get rich quick' books read in the fifties.

[Mike Rambour]

regarding the guys that say once you have a baby you wont have shop time for 5-15 years, I say B.S. to that. When my daughter was born, I had less shop time but only for maybe a year. After that my daughter had ear muffs to wear while my wife and I were in the shop. My daughter at around age 6 got her very own saw (Delta Scrollsaw) to use with supervision and a small sander and by age 10 had her own set of chisels and with close supervision was allowed to use other tools (not the shaper she is now 30 and I am still uncomfortable when she uses the shaper). But then again I married well, my wife is in the shop with me most of the time i am there. One my proudest "daddy" moments was when my daughter was 17 and I came home from work and she had her car half apart, rear seal was leaking and she was replacing the seal and clutch. She probably could have done it all on her own but needed the car next morning for school, so I helped. Cars are my primary hobby, so I do have a lift which makes things super easy.

As to justifying the tools, I used straight edges to guide the saw, a home made tenoning jig for the table saw and resisted the Festool urge for years. I had to build a highchair/table combo for my daughter and I thought a Domino would really make it go quicker, I finally broke down and bought one...a week later I bought the track saw and several tracks, a month later I bought the LR32 for making shelf holes, within 2 months I had a whole bunch of Festool tools. The time savings were incredible and so much easier to get accurate work than my home made jigs, etc.

[David Kumm]

Only the Op has the info to determine whether he can afford it. Dave

[Mike Cutler]

I look at object, or a project, from a few angles to determine if I want to do it myself.
Can I find someone to build what I want, exactly the way I want it, without a constant argument?
How much is the tool if I buy it?
How much is the material to build it times three? You'll mess it up the first time and waste material, learn from your mistakes ,and build it correctly the second.
If this, plus what time you're willing to put into it are less than buying it, go for it.
Twenty year ago I was renovating a bathroom, and didn't want to get bogged down with plumbing, even though I can do it. I got quotes from plumbers for $1000.00 per fixture, roughed, 3 fixtures total. I already had the actual finished faucets, valves and escutcheon plates.
I figured it would take a plumber less than a day, and I wouldn't have water in the house, as all of the studs and joists were open, and it would probably take me, two, maybe three days. I did it myself and saved $2500.
You have to look at everything.

If you want to build something for your own personal satisfaction, build it.

[jeff norris 2011]

Form me a few things helps me decide if I should buy a tool:

1. safety
2. enjoyment

Making projects go purely faster really does not play into it. I am in the shop as a hobby to kill time. So if I am doing something fun for longer, I don't care. Of course there are a few exceptions, if I can shorten the time spent doing things I don't like but need to be done, I will invest in a faster better solution. For example my only festoon is a Rotex. I don't like sanding, but this tool does actually help me enjoy it as it is so efficient and clean.

Would I buy a domino? Never. I enjoy joinery. So I would rather spend a bit more time make a nice mortice and tenon joint.

[Jim Becker]

Only the Op has the info to determine whether he can afford it. Dave

That's correct. He was asking for guidance and our thoughts around how to justify...but yes, it's ultimately his decision.

[Stan Calow]

I do think its a different process for a hobbyist than looking at how much your efficiency and production time will improve. I'd like to upgrade a few things, but then I think about how many projects in a given amount of time I will actually do. Then judge whether investing in a better tool will be worth it. For example, I haven't used my lathe once in the last four months. My planer has been running, maybe a couple of minutes during that time. So its not worth it to me as I dont see my production changing. I bought a new table saw last year, bit chose a contractor saw rather than a high dollar cabinet saw or re-built Unisaw, because I wont use it enough to justify the cost. Domino sounds good, but I may churn out only one or two projects this year needing them. So if you look at cost of a tool over time, or per project, I cant justify a lot of new tools.

[Bird Cupps]

I own a lot of tools. I don't justify buying them very much, but then I don't have kids. I know parenting is different now than when I grew up, but I spent lots of time working with my dad on all his projects. (And I'm a girl, so that tells you that not all parents got into the gender stereotypes.) Being with him created so much of my outlook on life, so I hope your kids get that opportunity, too.

Today, if I have a tool I can spare, I share it with friends all the time. If it comes back a bit worn, that's okay. Those are my friends, and they mean more than any tool. My tile saw goes all over the place--some people just buy a blade and then use the saw whenever. My scaffolding also comes and goes. I'm glad to see these things get used.

[Mike Cutler]

Bird
More people should live life the way you do.
My Baker scaffolding makes the rounds also. ;)

[Pete Staehling]

Only you can decide. Family budget shouldn't suffer for your hobby, but you should spend on nice tools if you can actually afford them and use them. If the budget is limited, you can get by with a few limited tools.

That said, I really don't get the way a lot of guys seem to "need" to have a lot of what they think do. If it is a hobby, consider if speed is actually important. Also remember that good enough usually actually is good enough. When I need a reminder of that I remember what my Dad had in his meager shop and what he managed to produce with it.

These days (post retirement) I have a better and better equipped shop every year, largely because I put some of the money it produces back into tools. To me it is luxurious, but I guess it is modest by the standards of many here with not a single Festool, Woodpecker one time, or Sawstop product.

BTW, I think getting the kids in the shop is a great thing as long as they show some interest. My little grandson took to the shop as a toddler and knew the names and functions of the tools by the time he could say the names. You have to be careful and plan what you do with them in the shop to keep them safe, but I think involving them in little projects at an early age is a great thing.

Worst case are the guys who can't afford their tool purchases and buy them anyway and then barely find time to use them. Avoid falling into that trap like the plague.

[John K Jordan]

...I really don't get the way a lot of guys seem to "need" to have a lot of what they think do. ...


It's apparently the same everywhere, according to this response to a casual question in another forum asking a widely-traveled woodworker for his observations on woodworking around the world:

"Buckaroo, in my experience there are more hobby woodworkers interested in acquiring tools than using them."

He adds a few more interesting observations about the hobby:

There are also too few recognising the value of both power and hand tools used to compliment one another.
The most popular wood used for building is a timber species called Plywood.
Australian hardwoods tend not to be grown elsewhere. There is wisdom there :)
Woodworkers around the world are generally friendly and passionate people. "

JKJ

[Andrew More]

Good points John and Pete. "Need" is a hard thing to justify in a hobby. I think too many people have gotten into the habit of using "Need" for "Want" to the detriment of their bank account. :)

That having been said, if you've got all the other priorities in line, what's wrong with a few extra tools? :) Just so long as we're clear it's a luxury not a survival issue.

[Frank Drackman]

I own a lot of tools. I don't justify buying them very much, but then I don't have kids. I know parenting is different now than when I grew up, but I spent lots of time working with my dad on all his projects. (And I'm a girl, so that tells you that not all parents got into the gender stereotypes.) Being with him created so much of my outlook on life, so I hope your kids get that opportunity, too.

Today, if I have a tool I can spare, I share it with friends all the time. If it comes back a bit worn, that's okay. Those are my friends, and they mean more than any tool. My tile saw goes all over the place--some people just buy a blade and then use the saw whenever. My scaffolding also comes and goes. I'm glad to see these things get used.

I have an extra Dewalt 12" compound miter saw & a Bosch jobsite tablesaw on mobile stands that I keep just to loan out. I can't count the number of decks, stairs, etc that have been built with them. If someone convinces me that they know how to safely use them they simply take them. If not, I come with them for the first part of the project to demonstrate safe use and to recommend ideas for their project.

[John K Jordan]

Good points John and Pete. "Need" is a hard thing to justify in a hobby. I think too many people have gotten into the habit of using "Need" for "Want" to the detriment of their bank account. :)...

Ha! I have "needed" this tool for a LONG time. Immediate gratification is so tempting but I saved for a decade due to the bank account thing.

It will easily hold a 2000 lb log off the ground so I can cut woodturning chunks without bending over. Am I lazy or what? :)
Also fantastic for unloading logs from trailer and truck and placing them gently on the sawmill behind the barn.
Since I am elderly and feeble I got the one with heat and air conditioning. Am I spoiled, or what?

425467

But this is one of those tools that I'll probably wear out before it gathers rust.

I know one guy who is constantly buying tools and machines and electronics. Six months later he advertises them on Craigslist. I have difficulty understanding this.

JKJ

[Bill Dufour]

The IRS says $500 a month should go into your roth ira and another $500 a month for the wife's. Pay off any school loans first, no credit card debt, then fund the ira's. Then you have tool and life money to spend.
Bill D

[Andrew More]

Ha! I have "needed" this tool for a LONG time. Immediate gratification is so tempting but I saved for a decade due to the bank account thing.
The kid is me is screaming that this is better than 6 trips to Disney Land, (and probably about the same price).


Since I am elderly and feeble I got the one with heat and air conditioning. Am I spoiled, or what?
Same. Spent about $1K adding spray foam to the roof, and fiberglass bats to the walls. Then a 1" foam layer, followed by drywall. Then an internet controlled mini-split with the help of a buddy who does HVAC. Garage is very nice to work in, and the bills are almost non-existent. I honestly cannot find the difference in the electrical costs.


I know one guy who is constantly buying tools and machines and electronics. Six months later he advertises them on Craigslist. I have difficulty understanding this.

Same. Some people just need to have something new. Nothing wrong with that, as long as they're not going broke, it gives me something to buy on Craigslist!

[Rod Sheridan]

My 9-5 is special education assessments. Keeps me busy and I take a good amount of work home. We're having our first child end of June which will add a completely different dynamic to our lives.

Buddy of mine had a good point regarding spending money on expensive tools, specifically a festool domino and tracksaw. He doesn't have either and neither do I but we want both. He pointed out the time saved in setup and jig making makes these tools desirable and I hadn't thought of it that way really. Often time I'll spend half the day dialing in a jig or fixing a tool before I even get going on the project.

Something like a domino or tracksaw significantly speed that up but at a cost.

I'm starting a rocking chair and place I got my wood from, the seller pulled out his festool ts75 track saw to cut it down and I was blown away. I don't use sheet good often and when I do I have home depot cut them down. That ts75 would sure be nice and also be able to cut 45s in thick stuff like slabs and table tops.

How do you rationalize a tool purchase?

Hi Patrick, I'll be honest, there's almost an unlimited number of ways to justify hobby purchases. here are my most commonly used rationalisations

1) It's a hobby, I spend money on it to enjoy myself, if I'm enjoying what I bought, it's justified

2) As a hobby user, shop time is as, or more valuable to me than if I did it for a living, because I get so little shop time. Anything that increases my productivity is reasonable, so maybe a track saw would do that. ( I don't have a use for one however I could see where they would be great, same for a Domino).

Diann and I often laugh about the "honest honey, if I had a $10K sliding table saw I could build you that bird feeder" approach. Probably more truth to that than I want to admit:D

regards, Rod.

[roger wiegand]

long ago my DW made me a deal that if I did work on the house I could spend as much as necessary of the money saved to buy the tools to do the work. This has worked out very well for all involved. We live in a house much nicer than we could afford if we had had to hire the work out, it is very unusual (in a way that will ultimately enhance resale value). We have much nicer furniture than we'd choose to spend money on. And, of course I have a very nice shop.

The kids learned during this process that most things are doable, if you read books and research you can figure out how to do most anything. So when they wanted something like a bass guitar we just went out to the shop and built one. I think this kind of attitude will serve them well. Neither currently pursues woodworking as a hobby, but both know how to fix stuff and whether the guy they're hiring is BSing them.

Finally, compared to my friends with sailboats or fancy golf and tennis club memberships woodworking is dirt cheap, even when you buy a few $5-10K tools. Heck, when we lived in MO I knew several guys with $40-50K invested in a bass boat.

I haven't yet seen the need for a Domino, I rather enjoy making M&T joints. I have found a track saw to be transformational in how I approach projects, especially a lot of the platform and cabinet work I do in my volunteer role at a local museum. I just got my second green tool, a sander, when my old one gave up the ghost. It's not transformational, but I just used it for two solid hours and my wrists are not tingling, so I guess that's something.

[John K Jordan]

The kid is me is screaming that this is better than 6 trips to Disney Land, (and probably about the same price).


Just make sure your pacemaker is working when you shop! Unless you've been keeping up with these things the sticker "shock" might pack a near-fatal wallop.

JKJ

[Andrew More]

Just make sure your pacemaker is working when you shop! Unless you've been keeping up with these things the sticker "shock" might pack a near-fatal wallop.

Unsure if we're talking about Disney World or the excavator..... :)

[Dylan Wall]

Go big or go home, if it doesn’t weigh 1000+ pounds then don’t bother. I just picked up a 2700lbs break Lathe that I’ll be making 5’ Diameter bowls with - fantastic! (I just bought it to show up my regional manager as he upgraded to a 18” wood Lathe. Unless It can be set up safely I won’t use it... Fingers crossed I can actually make it work)

There’s a time to be practical and a time not to be, if you want something get it. Let your future self worry about ramifications....every thing always evens out in the end.

[John K Jordan]

Go big or go home, if it doesn’t weigh 1000+ pounds then don’t bother. I just picked up a 2700lbs break Lathe that I’ll be making 5’ Diameter bowls with - fantastic! (I just bought it to show up my regional manager as he upgraded to a 18” wood Lathe. Unless It can be set up safely I won’t use it... Fingers crossed I can actually make it work)

There’s a time to be practical and a time not to be, if you want something get it. Let your future self worry about ramifications....every thing always evens out in the end.

People turn big and stay safe.

Here’s a little video about our late friend Lissi Oland who turned huge bowls. She used a tractor and chain hoist to handle blanks, mounted them on a huge faceplate, and cored with a chainsaw. I still have a complete set of her tools in an unopened box - a little piece of history!

https://youtu.be/1PMEJ7rirso

JKJ

[Mark Rainey]

People turn big and stay safe.

Here’s a little video about our late friend Lissi Oland who turned huge bowls. She used a tractor and chain hoist to handle blanks, mounted them on a huge faceplate, and cored with a chainsaw. I still have a complete set of her tools in an unopened box - a little piece of history!

https://youtu.be/1PMEJ7rirso

JKJ

That was a fun video John. I never knew you could turn something that big! Mark

[johnny means]

Ever wonder how the craftsman who built the furniture displayed at Winterthur in Wilmington. DE managed without Festool? Just sayin'😀
The work at Winterthur was made with more advanced machines than any of us will ever own. They were voice activated and could literally do any operation needed for woodworking. Planing, cutting, drilling, scraping, joinery, finishing were all done with one amazing machine. I think thes used to them apprentices.

[Bruce Page]

To the OP, 20 years ago, I used to ride motorcycles, big & expensive motorcycles. Some people would say to me “You could buy a small car for what that cost!” I would tell them “If I wanted a small car, I would’ve bought one.” My philosophy has always been, if you want something, and you can afford it while still keeping peace in the family, buy it. Life’s too short.

I do my best balancing want vs need but sometimes want will win out.

[Robert D Evans]

If I'm going to spend close to $1,000 on a tool, it's going to weight a lot more than 4 lbs. I don't see the attraction with the Domino. Maybe I'm a barbarian, but I'm not ready to give up on my Dewalt biscuit jointer.

[glenn bradley]

Adequate tools can do excellent work. Excellent tools make doing excellent work a little more elegant or consistent or faster or maybe even easier. I see a lot of nice pick up trucks at the lumberyard. My Tacoma still hauls lumber just fine. Spend your money on what’s important to you.

[Pete Staehling]

Adequate tools can do excellent work. Excellent tools make doing excellent work a little more elegant or consistent or faster or maybe even easier.
True enough. Quality tools do help and are a joy to work with, but a master craftsman will always turn out quality work and a hack will always fail to regardless of the tool budget.

[Alex Zeller]

People told me my life was going to change when I had a child too. Blah blah blah. Life is change. It's always going to change. To me this is a hobby that I don't plan on making a cent off of ever. If I do then good for me, if not then I'm right where I expected to be. I'm older but still work full time and find very little shop time in my life. But retirement (lord willing) will be coming. If you enjoy woodworking then now, not after you retire, is the time to start getting yourself set with the tools you will need (and some of what you will want).

A table saw by itself isn't good for much more than construction work. But you will most likely need one. You could buy a new contractors saw and get by but desire to upgrade or if you are planning long term you can just keep your eyes open for a used cabinet saw or possibly a slider. It could take a few years but there are deals out there. Some of the specialized tools don't seam to come up for sale too often and at some point you just have to make the choice to buy new. For example I'm looking for a power feeder. The few used ones I've seen look pretty rough.

So I set up an account that has money just for things I want. When I have spare money I add to it. I try to never remove the money in it for anything other than woodworking tools. As you get older it does get easier. When I was younger I wouldn't spend much money on eating out and other activities because of family needs. That doesn't mean I never took vacations or spent money on the family but more just things like if there was a movie that I wanted to see I would wait until it was on TV. As I had more free money I would save it simply because I was use to doing it. At one point in time I would never have thought I could drop $3000 on a 20" planer but now I'm at the point where I can shop around and when I make a choice I'll pull the trigger without justifying it.

I also suggest trying to learn how to do as much as you can. It depends on your job of course, but every trade you can do some of will most likely save you money. Unless you are going to rent all your life sooner or later you will own a house and it'll need work. 16 years ago I bought land and built the house I'm living in. It was raw wooded land and I bought a full size backhoe and dozer to clear what I needed and remove the stumps. I dug the foundation. The only 3 things I didn't do myself was the cement work (although a few years later I did do the cement floor and walls on my garage myself), the timber frame (which I helped the contractor), and spraying the basement walls with a waterproof barrier. Everything else was done by me and friends I hired to help me. I know everything about my house. The only things left to do is build the cabinets for the pantry (right now it's wire racks, build the stairs (they are just 2x's) and the molding around the windows and doors. But I specifically didn't do those things because I wanted to buy the tools needed to make them myself. At the end of the day I saved close to $100k by doing it myself which easily justified the equipment and tools needed.

Life is change. you plan a course you think is where you want to go and work to get there. If you feel a specific tool is something that will make your life easier and fits into your path then find a way to make it happen. If your path changes, it happens, then hopefully you will get most of your money back. One of the great things about woodworking tools is there;s two used markets. The used commercial auctions were well used equipment sells for a reasonable price, and the used hobbyist market where tools are usually in great shape and most likely will be selling for close to what the owner paid for them years ago. Keep your tools in great shape and you will get a good chunk of your money back.

[mike waters]

Where do you live? If all you need is to rip down some wood to size, while it is enjoyable to do it yourself, you could easily find someone.

If you live near nashville, I will do it for free.

Then buy a couple chisels and enjoy learning mortise tenon. instead of the domino.. But if you want me to domino out some wood for you, I can do that, too, for free

[Mike Cutler]

People turn big and stay safe.

Here’s a little video about our late friend Lissi Oland who turned huge bowls. She used a tractor and chain hoist to handle blanks, mounted them on a huge faceplate, and cored with a chainsaw. I still have a complete set of her tools in an unopened box - a little piece of history!

https://youtu.be/1PMEJ7rirso

JKJ

Wow!! That's impressive.
I think it would unnerve me to be that close to 300lbs. of spinning wood.

[Steve Demuth]

How do you rationalize a tool purchase?

I am at the other end of my career - still working 60 hrs/week, but with retirement definitely just over the horizon. I don't rationalize. If I want a tool for a job, I get it. One consequence of the last 40 years of those long work weeks, and almost constant travel for business, is that I don't have to count dollars for those kinds of purchases, and as I say, I'm right next to not having to worry about the time to use them, other than needing to do things quickly enough that I don't run out of gas before I get my money's worth.

[mike waters]

Not sure if this went through, I think I hit private reply.. Anyways,

Where do you live? If all you need is to rip down some wood to size, while it is enjoyable to do it yourself, you could easily find someone.

If you live near nashville, I will do it for free.

Then buy a couple chisels and enjoy learning mortise tenon. instead of the domino.. But if you want me to domino out some wood for you, I can do that, too, for free

[ChrisA Edwards]

https://sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Patrick Irish https://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2989544#post2989544)

How do you rationalize a tool purchase?






Whine about it enough until the wife caves and just says "Go buy the bloody thing and shut up!".

[Mark Bolton]

Should everybody just abandon hobby woodworking and buy stuff?

Thats always the response to the notion of quantifying whether making something is viable for the individual or not though its never what anyone is saying when they mention doing a bit of accounting for your time and the outcome. Its just one of many factors that goes into are you saving money, getting a better product, enjoying yourself, or any and all of the above. The choice is each individuals to make on all counts.


Not to be mean, but this sounds like a personal problem.

Not in any way mean, spot on. I am not a fully equipped entry/passage door shop by any means. Was speaking more to a reasonably equipped all around shop with dedicated tooling. That said, there is a local shop here producing a lot of doors and even enginieer/stave core doors are far and away more than that for average slabs though commercial doors (read Chile, South America) are in that range from our lumberyard. But agreed, and its more to my point. The $500 door from my supplier would likely be 1200 through my shop and the pricing escalates from there. Joe C here would be a good reference to what a well equipped shop (not a door factory) could produce quality doors for cost wise.[/QUOTE]


I suspect they may have a number of dedicated processes and machines, which I would consider a fully tooled shop, but you may consider to be above and beyond

Or it very well could be that they have access to a line of commercial doors and simply buy them in and brand them as their own. Very very common though if they were completely custom its a different story. I can easily quote an entire home full of high quality doors and never make the first chip. Its no matter. The point is always the personal balance between saving money, enjoying making something, knowing your not saving a dime even with the tools, and being ok with it.

[Brad Shipton]

Such an interesting difference of opinion. Some of us are gadget guys, some are not. Do you need them? Absolutely not. You can go look thru the neanderthal section here and see endless examples of amazing pieces being made with hand tools. That said, if you can afford them, and are a gadget guy, have at er. My brother has a shiny vette in his garage and I am certain not a day goes by when he needs to feel he has to justify it somehow.

I think the greater point is to consider if you will have time? The child will have a huge impact upon that. If you are building to save money, keep in mind that is rarely the case if you are trying to maintain a level of quality. If you are building heirlooms, awesome, but make sure your significant other has the patience to wait. Not all do.

[Matt Day]

5 pages and 4 days and the OP hasn’t chimed in?

[PHILIP MACHIN]

I’ve worked hard my whole life and saved when others spent. I’m in a position now where I can afford to buy a tool or two if I want it. Like many have said, there are much worst things to waste money on: Eating out, fancy cars, booze, etc. Most good tools retain a decent amount of value, so you’re never truly out of all your hard earned money.

As a father of two young girls, I feel like I am setting a good example. I build our own furniture, I reuse materials and make them into something useful and new. They also see me save my money until I can afford to pay cash for the new tool I want.

I guess long story short, I don’t feel guilty about buying tools. As long as I have cash for it and I’m not robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I'm going the other direction. I'm scheduled to take a full week course on hand tool joinery in a couple weeks, covering the tools (saws, chisels, planes), sharpening them, and making joints with them. While I use and enjoy power tools, having the option to use hand tools will be a skillset that I will appreciate. By the way, you don't need dust collection, ear protection, push sticks, splitters, or eye protection when using hand tools, so it is not only cheaper than power tools, but much safer. And I get to spend more money on booze, weed, and coke.

Just kidding on the last sentence. :)

[Andrew More]

I am sorta awaiting a parody video with a guy strapping a 6" dust port to his 1/8" chisel. :)

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree Thomas, except for the eye protection part.

I hope you have fun on your course, it sounds great.......Regards, Rod

[Jim Becker]

By the way, you don't need ... eye protection when using hand tools,

That part I disagree with...

[lowell holmes]

I agree with Jim.

[mike stenson]

That part I disagree with...

It's not always cheaper either ;)

[John K Jordan]

By the way, you don't need ... eye protection when using hand tools,

That part I disagree with...

I remember a moment many years ago: a hammer, a chisel, a wood chip, a sting, and a drop of blood on my forehead.

My mantra: Protect only those eyes (ears, fingers, etc) you want to keep.

JKJ

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

It's not always cheaper either ;)

Very true. Maybe the rock-bottom price to get into woodworking would be less for a hand-tool only shop, assuming either poor quality tools or if you can find good older tools and restore them, but it could also easily cost much more if buying new, premium tools and wanting to have a lot of bases covered.

Also, hand tool woodworking is by no means dust free either.

Cheers, Dom

[roger wiegand]

A bit of tool porn for those who think hand tool woodworking needs to be cheap. (listed at $4200)

http://www.lazarushandplane.com/shop/bevel-up-jack-plane-299 (http://www.lazarushandplane.com/shop/bevel-up-jack-plane-299)

425809

[Frederick Skelly]

Well, you're right. If you want all boutique planes and saws, a brace of of grizzly machines could certainly be cheaper. I just think we scare people off sometimes. Even with new tools, this doesnt have to be a cost-prohibitive hobby, does it?

I think I could outfit a functional hand tool shop in new Lee Valley gear without breaking the bank. I mean, how much do you really have to have to get going? A rip and crosscut saw, a #4 handplane, a couple reliable squares, a couple good rules, a dozen pipe clamps? Buy S4S lumber for a while and get to building stuff. Over time, buy molding planes, and all the other nice-to-have items. But Dom's right - dust is dust, whether cut with a tablesaw or a Badaxe handsaw.

Have a good day everyone!
Fred

[Biff Phillips]

Lost my reply.. but basically, it's never a good idea to share 50/50 ownership in a tool. It will cause bad feelings when a minor damage is done to the tool .. like what if one person accidently damages the track? It's still usable, but it will annoy the other person whenever they see it.. Maybe if one of you bought the domino and the other bought the track saw, it might work out.. but there's still potential to strain the friendship.. What happens when you plan on using the domino on Sat, tell the guy, come over and he is in the middle of busting out a bunch of dominos because he knows you are borrowing it and he might not see it for another month? So you wait around hours for him to finish, etc, etc.. Be careful, never a good idea to mix money and friendship..

[kent wardecke]

How do you rationalize a tool purchase?

I'll bet less than one in ten of us makes a living with woodworking. So can you afford it? Do you want it? smarty pants answer is below

Don't ask these guys that question unless you want someone to tell you to buy. Like asking the drunk on the bar stool next to you if it would be alright to have another beer.

[Justin Rapp]

Justification for buying tools for woodworking hobby is really no different than any other hobby. It all depends on your budget and how much enjoyment you get from the hobby. There are other justifications that can be used besides financial when it comes to a hobby. It is supposed to be fun, relaxing, bring enjoyment and in the case of woodworking, help give you some bit of exercise (could vary depending on the specific type or woodworking), help reduce stress (or give you some), and these are very much gains when it comes to health. When it comes to family, you can have your family members help and get involved. My son, now 13 helps often and I got him started with just hand sanding when he was maybe 6 or so. Now he's using hand power tools, the drill press, miter saw, band saw etc. No table saw till we get a Saw Stop and honestly safety requires zero financial justification. This mean no 'cheap' tools, a lesson I learned buying my first table saw which was used twice, but happened to be the perfect hight for my lunchbox planer. Cheap tools can be dangerous, dull blades are even more dangerous, working without a dust collector and air filter is just down right asking for respiratory issues. So, again, no justification when it comes to safety.

So - while it's hard to justify cost sometimes, it all comes down to what you can budget for your hobby and your safety. Some people buy some simple hand tools from the local hardware store and other's put up heated and air conditioned buildings with top-tier machines. Other hobbies are the same. Some people buy a Walmart fishing pole and drop a line in the local pond for a catfish, others buy 3 million dollar offshore fishing yachts to catch a Marlin.

Use your budget wisely, invest in good quality tools that you know you will use for years, not put on craigslist after 3 months to upgrade to a better quality or larger tool and most important, make saw dust safely.

[David Sloan]

Adequate tools can do excellent work. Excellent tools make doing excellent work a little more elegant or consistent or faster or maybe even easier. I see a lot of nice pick up trucks at the lumberyard. My Tacoma still hauls lumber just fine. Spend your money on what’s important to you.

I am with you Glenn on the nice pickups (and I love pickups). I could easily afford a new pickup but I am happy with my 20 year old Tundra. I could buy a Festool track saw with a single monthly payment on a new nicely trimmed out pickup. Tools are far better investments of course than vehicles. Every tool I have ever sold was sold for not that far off from what I paid for it originally. If you bought a Domino 10 years ago or a Lie Nielsen smooth plane and wanted to sell it, you would do very well. People think nothing of spending thousands on a cruise (I have never been on one) and that money is just gone. When my wife told me last year to buy a 3HP PCS Sawstop (she accompanied me to Highland Woodworking in Atlanta) I didn't second guess her and I didn't feel guilty! I had used a Ryobi BT 3000 for almost 30 years and used it a lot. I didn't really have to have the Sawstop but boy have I enjoyed it! Frankly I enjoy it even when it's turned off. I bought my first Lie Nielsen smooth plane recently. I didn't really need it (I have a lot of handplanes) but I love using it, but also just looking at it, holding it, oiling it, honing the blade. It's a piece of art in my opinion. A painting on the wall can just be admired but a beautiful tool can not only be admired but it can help you make something beautiful for people you love.

[Jim Andrew]

I have used the high priced vehicle excuse several times, and I continue to get by with as low priced trucks as possible. Have an 04 Chevy 2500HD for trailer pulling, and drive a 14 Tacoma base truck for transportation. The Chevy is horrible on gas short trips, the Taco much better, but no good for trailering a skidsteer. Have no plans to get any new vehicles except for moving the wife up to a newer Corolla.

[Travis Conner]

I buy the best you can buy then consider it an investment that you keep for a lifetime, maybe even pass down to your kids. Keep in mind though the tool has to be an older well built tool like a classic 1980- 1995 delta unisaw. You can buy one of those in good shape for $800 Or go to home depot and buy a jobsite portable dewalt table saw for $599. Why???

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

I buy the best you can buy then consider it an investment that you keep for a lifetime, maybe even pass down to your kids. Keep in mind though the tool has to be an older well built tool like a classic 1980- 1995 delta unisaw. You can buy one of those in good shape for $800 Or go to home depot and buy a jobsite portable dewalt table saw for $599. Why???

I'm sure there are also well built tools sold new today. Although I agree there is far too much cheap, wastefull junk. Even more true with hand tools - buy high quality hand tools and look after them and they'll almost certainly be able to be passed on.

Cheers, Dom

[Jared Sankovich]

I buy the best you can buy then consider it an investment that you keep for a lifetime, maybe even pass down to your kids. Keep in mind though the tool has to be an older well built tool like a classic 1980- 1995 delta unisaw. You can buy one of those in good shape for $800 Or go to home depot and buy a jobsite portable dewalt table saw for $599. Why???

Its tough to pick up the unisaw and throw it in the back of your truck, or carry up a flight of stairs yourself.

[Andrew More]

Its tough to pick up the unisaw and throw it in the back of your truck, or carry up a flight of stairs yourself.

Takes up more space as well.

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

7 pages so far and I don't think we have even scratched the surface on this one.

As a hobbyist with a family, demanding job and 30 acres to take care of, I understand the OP's struggles.

Not to be too "woo--woo", but for me, the enjoyment of woodworking is more about the process than getting to the end product. So when I look at a big tool purchase, I am always asking myself why I want it and evaluate the purchase in terms why I enjoy woodworking. So, I see a good table saw or track saw as critical to my enjoyment of the process since accurate and repeatable cuts is makes the process much more enjoyable for me. I have held off on a Domino, because forcing myself to layout the mortise and tenons and then cutting them with a router and table saw makes me focus on the process and the craft. Also, for me, if I had a Domino, I think I would have a tendency to rush projects.

That being said, if I was better at making M&Ts or did this as a business, I would be all in on a Domino.

[Ray Newman]

“How do you rationalize a tool purchase?”
--Patrick Irish

Both The Squeeze and I are retired, cars and house paid for, and we have no debt. She has her monthly income, I have mine. If I want or need a tool and can use it for a project or projects, I just buy it.

[Justin Rapp]

Ok - here is some very serious justification. I am not saying to go out and spend every penny you have but you are also alive for so long, and you really never know when life can take a turn. My thought process changed when I got the call from my doctor telling me my biopsy was positive for prostate cancer, and I was 45 at the time. I am very lucky it was caught early, didn't spread and as of right now cancer free, however there is about a 20% chance for re-occurrence that would once again make me putting on the boxing gloves. So while I tend to get concerned spending $$$ on hobbies, I decided I am going to make sure I enjoy the time I have here because you never know when something out of your control is going to take your health away. While I still don't have my SawStop, I did upgrade my jointer, get a bandsaw, built the workbench I always wanted and put the lift on my Jeep since I was diagnosed. Cutting back where needed to save the money to buy what I WANT!