Honing Oil - applying it to a stone in the correct ammount

[Andrew Pitonyak]

This is just my placeholder initial post and I will provide more data later, but....

Preyda sells Arkansas stones and "Premium" honing oil. For eample, consider this this bottle:

https://woodcraft-production-weblinc.netdna-ssl.com/product_images/6-x2x1-2-hard-blk-hard-soft-3-stone-kit/5dc11e18776f6f28c0000ca8/detail.jpg?c=1572937240

When oil comes out of that bottle, it comes out fast and I generally apply too much oil no matter how careful I am. Next, consider this vintage Smith's Honing Oil can.

https://cdn0.rubylane.com/_pod/item/161834/30697/Vintage-Smithx7892s-Honing-Oil-Tin-x7896-pic-1A-2048%3A10.10-93f4e13b-f.jpg

This has a very small hole and it is very easy to apply exactly the amount of oil that you desire. I recently refilled an empty can that looks exactly like this one with Norton's honing oil (straight mineral oil).

I will see if I can add some more containers and indicate how it comes out, but, I prefer less to come out so that I do not need to concentrate carefully on what I am doing.

Any thoughts?

[Günter VögelBerg]

I use this. Doesnt come out too fast. Maybe it is not the best for honing, but I have always felt like it works as well as the norton oil.


Lucas Oil 10875 1 Pack Extreme Duty Gun Oil https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015YL0M3Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_VPjoEbW1F356Q

[ken hatch]

Andrew,

Almost any light oil will work, everything from kerosene to w10 motor oil. The job of the oil is to carry the metal cuttings off so you need enough to do that job.

ken

[Don Peters]

The old traditional standby is 50% mineral oil from the drug store mixed with 50% kerosene. Been using it for fifty years. Cheap and effective.

[Tom M King]

In a pinch, I used bacon grease once. It worked better than you might think.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

So, one comment on a product that comes out slowly... Extreme duty gun oil.... I do like the bottle. I bet it is very easy to control.

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The old metal Smith's and the Norton both work the same and are easy to deal with. I know for certain that Norton uses a highly refined mineral oil. The old Smith's also appears to be similar, but that is just a guess. They both have the same delivery method.

The new Smith's Honing Solution (do they still sell the old??) is very different in nature. I do not find the delivery mechanism to be as easy to control. Bottles of that type seem to leave oil on the lid that then drips down the sides. I am not very happy with it. The honing solution itself is NOT really oil, and it contains things to prevent rust (and similar). They also mention that you can use it on diamond stones. Some people love it because you get a good bite from the stone yet it removes the swarf.

And Oops, I need to run, so I need to stop being chatty...

Dan's and Case sure look to be the same to me. I will mention that i used something for delivery that I purchased from a hobby store (see below). It works great. ANd I need to go make some wood for a neighbor (by make I mean cut to size).



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[Jim Matthews]

WD40 from a $20 Gallon container into a cheapo spray bottle for mine.

Little bottles are wasteful and expensive.

[steven c newman]

Have a plastic bottle of 3in1 that I use....no complaints..

[Andrew Pitonyak]

WD40 from a $20 Gallon container into a cheapo spray bottle for mine.

Little bottles are wasteful and expensive.

I think that WD40 is like 15% refined mineral oil and a large percent (50%??) kerosene.

Smith's, based on the MSDS is likely Alan, here's the MSDS for Smith's solution shows the same evaporation rate and boiling point of water, plus a "Mixture of emollients, lubricants,cleaners and a mild corrosion inhibitor". Much cheaper than a specific product I have seen for diamond plates and this specifically states that it is good for diamond plates.

I have seen suggestions about mixing 50/50 mineral oil and ODORLESS kerosene. You can get 1 galon of Odorless Kerosene (Klean Heat) from Home Depot for $12 near me. It thins the mineral oil and does not have the terrible smell.

I asked about Kerosene way back in 2015, had lots of good answers. Someone even suggested odorless mineral spirits.

I found the SDS for Nathan's Natural Honing Oil, and it claims to be Highly Refined Petroleum Base Oil with nothing added. For exposure, it states "Oil Mist, Mineral" so I assume it is just mineral oil; but why is Dan's, Case, and Nathan's all "colored" as compared to mineral oil?

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?238425-How-to-use-kerosene-as-a-honing-oil-(skin-contact)

And why when I go to Dan's web site, does the picture of their honing oil look pretty much clear with no color:

https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/honing-oil/

The description for that states "light mineral oil", so I wonder if it somehow differs from the colored stuff that I am showing. in my pictures. That said, I found an old reference that claims that Dan's contains kerosene (post from 2014).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Have a plastic bottle of 3in1 that I use....no complaints..

Yeah, the delivery method is very nice and controlled. Common thing to use with the stones. I had forgotten about that, but now that you mention it.

[Warren Mickley]

The choice of oil depends a bit on how regularly you sharpen. Cheap mineral oil is a mixture of oils of various weights. It works all right if you use it daily. However, if you leave it for a period the lighter components evaporate, leaving a gummy scum. Honing oil is more highly refined, which is why it is more expensive. It has a much tighter range of viscosity so it does not get gummy on the stone if used irregularly.

I used to use a mixture of motor oil and kerosene, which was cheap at the time. What I liked was the ability to adjust the viscosity simply by adding more of one component or the other. When I became a full time woodworker I found I was coughing in the evenings and I traced it to the kerosene, which is a pretty good irritant.

WD40 is also an irritant and not something you want to breathe all the time. Might be all right for part time use. It also has a low viscosity so that it does not suspend the steel particles nearly as well as oil. One might as well use water.

[Jim Koepke]

When oil comes out of that bottle, it comes out fast and I generally apply too much oil no matter how careful I am.

That looks very similar to my first oilstone set purchased at a Woodcraft store. The oil flow can be controlled by squeezing the bottle lightly after it is opened before tipping it to pour. After tipping release pressure to control the flow.

My everyday oil is mineral oil and it works fine. My stones do get wiped down regularly.

There are many different types of oil dispensers available on the market:

425189

The three with the plastic bulb base are my favorites for controlling the flow of oil. Those hold my harder to replace oils like silicon oil. My quick search for a source on those was unsuccessful.

For fast uncontrolled oil flow the Army green can on the left pours it out faster than you can say yikes. It is best for filling the smaller cans. My little oiler isn't in this picture. My recollection it was for use with projectors. It only holds a tablespoon or so of oil. Its cuteness made me bring it home and it didn't cost much.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

Might be all right for part time use. It also has a low viscosity so that it does not suspend the steel particles nearly as well as oil. One might as well use water.

OK, Boomer.

[Rafael Herrera]

I use food grade mineral oil in a spraying bottle. I can pour a small stream or a full spray by controlling the force I apply to the plunger. My oilcan looks like the one in this picture. Made in Hong Kong in the 50s, no. 3, trade mark 555.

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[Roger Nair]

I use the ironically named Lily White Sewing Machine oil bought a number of years ago. LW oil is refined so it has a non-gummy character to keep sewing machines running freely. I have used it for honing with good results. It is my belief that this is a paraffin base oil. I dispense from a triggered oil can.

[mike stenson]

I use the ironically named Lily White Sewing Machine oil bought a number of years ago. LW oil is refined so it has a non-gummy character to keep sewing machines running freely. I have used it for honing with good results. It is my belief that this is a paraffin base oil. I dispense from a triggered oil can.

same thing, in one of these
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-BDZNTgj/0/12bf0b85/L/i-BDZNTgj-L.jpg

[Rafael Herrera]

Mineral oil, known also as paraffin, is the main ingredient of baby oil, sewing machine oil, some lamp oils, some honing oils, some laxatives, etc. It's sold under some fancy labels at a higher price, but the bottom line is it's just mineral oil.

[mike stenson]

Mineral oil, known also as paraffin, is the main ingredient of baby oil, sewing machine oil, some lamp oils, some honing oils, some laxatives, etc. It's sold under some fancy labels at a higher price, but the bottom line is it's just mineral oil.

FWIW, sewing machine oil is a whole lot cheaper than honing oil, or wd40, and I use it for other things (like sewing machines, where it's clarity is a requirement.. and vintage turntables, where it was originally spec'd anyway)

[Jim Koepke]

Mineral oil is available in most large grocery stores in the pharmacy aisles. It is often labeled as a Lubricant/Laxative. This in my consideration would be a food grade product, safe for use on cutting boards.

It may also be available in Feed & Farm supply stores by the gallon. It is used on horses hooves. Ask for the MSDS (Manufacturers Safety Data Sheet). It may not be the same as the food grade product available in grocery stores and drug stores. It may also be more expensive at the Feed & Farm stores. This may not be considered a food grade product, but likely okay for knives and such as long as it is washed after sharpening. For my liking, it wouldn't be used on a cutting board if the MSDS didn't indicate it was safe (or not dangerous) for human consumption.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

With regard to mineral oil, refined does not mean free from impurities or food safe. Mineral oil is a mixture of oils of various molecular weights, various volatility and various viscosity. When it is refined the heaviest stuff and lightest stuff is removed so that the oil , though still a mixture, is in a tighter range, and will not thicken from evaporation over time. There is a reason that clock oil can cost $4 and $10 an ounce. It has nothing to do with being food safe, or a fancy label. The price is a reflection of the work to refine the oil.

[James Pallas]

I guess I’m a little thick, pun intended. How much oil is too much. I like to see enough to push around some so I know it’s carrying off swarf. I honestly don’t know. I learned from those that just said put plenty so it floats away the swarf or your stone will get loaded. Wipe it off when your done or it will settle on the stone. Wipe it lightly with a sweeping motion so you don’t press it in. Correct me if I’m wrong. Been using food grade mineral oil (Drug store) no additives for 50 or so years.

[Halgeir Wold]

Baby oil is usually light mineral oil with paraffin and a few other additives - with our without perfumes....

[Rafael Herrera]

James, I wouldn't presume to tell you what to do if you've been using mineral oil for 50 years, I rather hear from you if you're having problems with your stones. Raf

[Andrew Pitonyak]

That looks very similar to my first oilstone set purchased at a Woodcraft store. The oil flow can be controlled by squeezing the bottle lightly after it is opened before tipping it to pour. After tipping release pressure to control the flow.

Good tip. I should give that a try. But now that you say it, it makes a lot of sense.

[ken hatch]

I guess I’m a little thick, pun intended. How much oil is too much. I like to see enough to push around some so I know it’s carrying off swarf. I honestly don’t know. I learned from those that just said put plenty so it floats away the swarf or your stone will get loaded. Wipe it off when your done or it will settle on the stone. Wipe it lightly with a sweeping motion so you don’t press it in. Correct me if I’m wrong. Been using food grade mineral oil (Drug store) no additives for 50 or so years.


James has it correct.

Two problems with this thread. First is obsessing over lubricant, as long as it will carry off the swarf almost any thing will work. Maybe some are better than others but mostly it makes no never mind. Second is it isn't a problem of getting too much lubricant but needing to get enough to hold and remove the metal cuttings.

Of course as always YMMV,

ken

[mike stenson]

James has it correct.

Two problems with this thread. First is obsessing over lubricant, as long as it will carry off the swarf almost any thing will work. Maybe some are better than others but mostly it makes no never mind. Second is it isn't a problem of getting too much lubricant but needing to get enough to hold and remove the metal cuttings.

Of course as always YMMV,

ken

We tend to make things far more difficult and complicated than they should be, don't we?

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

Oil is a lubricant and this will minimize the effectiveness of grinding. When using a natural stone then water is a better option if it is new and has not been oiled before.

[ken hatch]

Oil is a lubricant and this will minimize the effectiveness of grinding. When using a natural stone then water is a better option if it is new and has not been oiled before.




I'm setting in a dark box with nothing to do for four hours, so I have plenty of time to reply to threads that interest me. For some sick reason I find this one interesting.

Marinus,

I have a question, do you grind on natural stones? Or just hone and polish.

ken

[steven c newman]

Hey...just another typical "Sharpening" thread around here....

Might even be some Caveman come along, and saying he just pees on his stones....:eek:

just a bead of 3in1 right down the center of the stone....let the edge spread it out....refresh as needed....K.I.S.S........

So much "Complicate the simple, simplify the momentous....you'd think some were running for Congress"

[Andrew Pitonyak]

James has it correct.

Two problems with this thread. First is obsessing over lubricant, as long as it will carry off the swarf almost any thing will work. Maybe some are better than others but mostly it makes no never mind. Second is it isn't a problem of getting too much lubricant but needing to get enough to hold and remove the metal cuttings.

Of course as always YMMV,

ken

My reason for starting this thread is because sometimes I sharpen at work using some Arkansas stones that I have there. So, when a meeting is running, I might be listening to the phone while mindlessly fixing up some pocket knife blade. Note that I have pocket knives to refurbish. So there I am, sitting at my desk, and I grab that bottle of "Premium Honing Oil" and I mean to just drop a bit onto the stone, since I do not want a bunch flowing all over my desk, and I get way too much coming out of the bottle.

The other points are interesting to me, but I originally asked because I wanted to control the amount. Oh, and I won't be using WD-40 in my office any time soon. Well, if I really had a need for it, perhaps. I did refinish a wood bookshelf in my office since I could not just take it home. I am just a peon, so was told that I had to use the ugly metal furniture. They said I could have this beautiful wooden shelf because it was broken and needed to be refinished. It is old... So I built some bits at home to bring in, and I made it work. Then, I rubbed it with Tung oil and steel wool. Next thing you know I had this beautiful book case in my office. And I am rambling....

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I use food grade mineral oil in a spraying bottle. I can pour a small stream or a full spray by controlling the force I apply to the plunger. My oilcan looks like the one in this picture. Made in Hong Kong in the 50s, no. 3, trade mark 555.

425219

OOooooo, pretty! Very nice. And it works with mineral oil. Nice.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The choice of oil depends a bit on how regularly you sharpen. Cheap mineral oil is a mixture of oils of various weights. It works all right if you use it daily. However, if you leave it for a period the lighter components evaporate, leaving a gummy scum. Honing oil is more highly refined, which is why it is more expensive. It has a much tighter range of viscosity so it does not get gummy on the stone if used irregularly.

I used to use a mixture of motor oil and kerosene, which was cheap at the time. What I liked was the ability to adjust the viscosity simply by adding more of one component or the other. When I became a full time woodworker I found I was coughing in the evenings and I traced it to the kerosene, which is a pretty good irritant.

WD40 is also an irritant and not something you want to breathe all the time. Might be all right for part time use. It also has a low viscosity so that it does not suspend the steel particles nearly as well as oil. One might as well use water.

Very interesting. I was specifically not aware of the difference between the cheap; and the expensive mineral oil. I bought a gallon of food grade mineral oil and I have an India stone soaking in it. I used it to sharpen an Axe blade and then I just dropped the stone into a zip lock bag. So I guess it is not really soaking, but, close enough I suppose. Should I worry about that?

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hey...just another typical "Sharpening" thread around here....

Might even be some Caveman come along, and saying he just pees on his stones....:eek:

just a bead of 3in1 right down the center of the stone....let the edge spread it out....refresh as needed....K.I.S.S........

So much "Complicate the simple, simplify the momentous....you'd think some were running for Congress"

For sure I do not urinate on my stones...... when the wife is around :D

I usually spread the oil with my finger to coat the top.

[Pat Barry]

I've used 3 in 1, 10w30, and power steering fluid. Of these, the power steering fluid works best. Its cheap, low viscosity, and a quart lasts forever.

[Dave Zellers]

Oil is a lubricant and this will minimize the effectiveness of grinding. When using a natural stone then water is a better option if it is new and has not been oiled before.

Unless one wants to minimize the effectiveness of grinding. Not trying to be glib- Just the other day I watched a guy sharpen a knife on both sides of his soft Arkansas, treating each side as producing different results. The clean less used side was more aggressive than the more used and more oiled side.

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

I'm setting in a dark box with nothing to do for four hours, so I have plenty of time to reply to threads that interest me. For some sick reason I find this one interesting.

Marinus,

I have a question, do you grind on natural stones? Or just hone and polish.

ken

I've had it all, Shapton waterstones, Arkansas stones, Norton India and waterstones, Vertitas MkI and MkII guides, Eclipse guide, Stanley guides, bench grinders.

Reduced it and only use an old Taiwanese Tormek clone with a 10" natural stone and then I either hone with an Eclipse guide or the patented Stanley guide (that goes in the slot of a plane blade) for a micro bevel on a 1000/4000 Norton water stone (on the 4000 side) or freehand for chisels and skew blades (no micro bevel) on a 5000 Shapton waterstone. I do not bother with stropping.

[Jim Matthews]

Here's to a speedy and uneventful recovery.

Slàinte Mhath

[James Pallas]

My reason for starting this thread is because sometimes I sharpen at work using some Arkansas stones that I have there. So, when a meeting is running, I might be listening to the phone while mindlessly fixing up some pocket knife blade. Note that I have pocket knives to refurbish. So there I am, sitting at my desk, and I grab that bottle of "Premium Honing Oil" and I mean to just drop a bit onto the stone, since I do not want a bunch flowing all over my desk, and I get way too much coming out of the bottle.

The other points are interesting to me, but I originally asked because I wanted to control the amount. Oh, and I won't be using WD-40 in my office any time soon. Well, if I really had a need for it, perhaps. I did refinish a wood bookshelf in my office since I could not just take it home. I am just a peon, so was told that I had to use the ugly metal furniture. They said I could have this beautiful wooden shelf because it was broken and needed to be refinished. It is old... So I built some bits at home to bring in, and I made it work. Then, I rubbed it with Tung oil and steel wool. Next thing you know I had this beautiful book case in my office. And I am rambling....

Keep a 1x3 inch stone in your pocket and just spit on it for pocket knives and such. The people I learned from and I did that all the time. Works great for utility knife blades as well. I think one of those little stones is in my tool kit. I have a DMT one in a leather pocket case too.

[ken hatch]

Here's to a speedy and uneventful recovery.

Slàinte Mhath

Jim,

Like a moth to a flame.

ken

[Charles Guest]

Neatsfoot oil -- nice and viscous and stays atop the stone. A few drops on the stone spreads and will still be sitting there at the end of the day. When honing you move the puddle back and forth over the stone never letting it go over the edge. Obviously not a petrochemical. It will however be too viscous in a cold shop for some tastes, but you need a warm shop for other reasons. A quart will last years. It doesn't take much.

Besides evening out wear on the stone, honing in a figure eight keeps the oil on top of the stone (try it!). If you're constantly squirting and flooding the stone with some low viscosity fluid your process is missing the mark to some degree. You shouldn't need a dedicated sharpening station in order to corral a mess.

In my rebellious youth I tried everything. The old timers who trained me knew what they were talking about though.

[ken hatch]

Neatsfoot oil -- nice and viscous and stays atop the stone. A few drops on the stone spreads and will still be sitting there at the end of the day. When honing you move the puddle back and forth over the stone never letting it go over the edge. Obviously not a petrochemical. It will however be too viscous in a cold shop for some tastes, but you need a warm shop for other reasons. A quart will last years. It doesn't take much.

Besides evening out wear on the stone, honing in a figure eight keeps the oil on top of the stone. If you're constantly squirting and flooding the stone with some low viscosity fluid your process is missing the mark to some degree. You shouldn't need a dedicated sharpening station partly in order to corral a mess.

Charles,

I thought I was the only one still using Neatsfoot oil. Good on you.

ken

[Charles Guest]

I trained under a guy who said that a drop of oil should never touch the case much less the bench or whatever the cased stone was sitting on. I'm not that severe, but he was basically right. Nothing beats neatsfoot oil for holding swarf in suspense.

[Jim Koepke]

It will however be too viscous in a cold shop for some tastes, but you need a warm shop for other reasons.

A warm shop is nice. Yesterday after a couple of hours with my heater running it got up to a toasty 38ºF/3.3ºC:

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Sometimes when doing a lot of planing or other activity the coat comes off.

This is my main reason for using oilstones in the winter. The water gets rather difficult to use when it is frozen.

jtk

[roger wiegand]

If you'd like to be obsessive about it, SigmaAldrich will sell you mineral oil in your choice of 39 different viscosities to play with.

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/substance/mineraloilrotationalviscositystandard1234598765?la ng=en&region=US

[Rafael Herrera]

Charles, Ken, if the honing oil should be viscous enough not to flow out of the top of the stone, then wouldn't 3-in-1 or motor oil do the trick? I thought it was desirable to use a thin oil, or this just a different approach?

[Charles Guest]

Charles, Ken, if the honing oil should be viscous enough not to flow out of the top of the stone, then wouldn't 3-in-1 or motor oil do the trick? I thought it was desirable to use a thin oil, or this just a different approach?

Motor oil toward the heavier end of the spectrum will work, though my preference is to use something that's not petroleum based. What you don't want is flooding, sloshing, and slinging. 3-in-1 for motors could work, it's heavier than the regular stuff, but again petroleum based.

When you use a heavier oil you're pushing and pulling the puddle along the stone with only a thin layer of the oil actually under the edge being honed. When you stop the movement on the stone the oil spreads and picks up the swarf and keeps it in suspension. Some assert that the swarf in suspension helps to polish the steel. I'm ambivalent about that, what I am not ambivalent about is using a product that's too thin that has to be applied every time you hone and just runs off the stone and puddles in the stone's case and literally has to be poured out at some point.

[ken hatch]

Charles, Ken, if the honing oil should be viscous enough not to flow out of the top of the stone, then wouldn't 3-in-1 or motor oil do the trick? I thought it was desirable to use a thin oil, or this just a different approach?


Refael,

I see Charles has already replied and I do not have much to add other than any thing that will keep the cuttings suspended will work. I think WD-40 is too thin, some might think Neatsfoot too thick but it works for me as it did for the old guys.

ken

[Andrew Pitonyak]

If you'd like to be obsessive about it, SigmaAldrich will sell you mineral oil in your choice of 39 different viscosities to play with.

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/substance/mineraloilrotationalviscositystandard1234598765?la ng=en&region=US

Wow... I would never have guessed.

[steven c newman]

Is this the right amount?
425513
On a 600 grit Medium India stone....