help On buying new or used co2 laser

[Louanne Fournier]

Hi,

I’m new to the forums but have been reading for a few days and wanted to post an inquiry. I am new to lasers. I got interested after watching a glow forge video. I quickly realized that wasn’t for me and began researching what else was available. As I’m sure you all know the market can be a bit overwhelming from eBay Chinese lasers to higher quality Chinese lasers to name brand lasers. Trying to decide on glass tubes or metal tubes, what wattage to get,stepper motors or servo, table options, bed sizes, desktop or not and the list goes on. I have been watching the Russ Sadler Videos and was ready to go chinese, then I watched his Think Laser videos and thought that was perfect but with exchange and shipping from UK that is outside my budget.

Im in Canada so my original budget for the top of the line glow forge was CAN $10k. I would like to spend less but for the right machine I am willing to spend that. I have Trotec and Epilogue showrooms within 10 minutes of where I live. I’m a little nervous to go for a demo as I’m a bit of an impulse buyer and feel they would sell me on a system that isn’t the best for me. I am looking to start a business selling personalized gift items, signage, jewellery etc that will supplement my income now and when I retire in a few years. I think my engraving to cutting ratio would be 50/50. I would like to be able to cut up to 1/4” (although 1/2” would be really good). I had a couple of questions that I can hope you can help with.

1. Are there any resources for finding used machines in the US or Canada?
2. Do you get the same quality of engraving and cutting from a chinese laser and a name brand laser of the same watts? there is some part of me that feels that the quality of items I produce will be better if I buy a name brand.
3. Will buying a higher watt machine be too much for more delicate engraving or delicate materials.
4. My husband and I both tinker. Would buying a chinese laser and then upgrading the weak components (motors, tubes, power supplies) work out or is it a bad idea to buy chinese.
5. Based on my business idea do you think 60w is enough or do I need 80w plus?
6. I find the bed sizes of lower watt machines are smaller. So I’d like a system with a pass through slot if possible or a bigger bed size.

i know I’ve asked a lot. If you could help with any or all of my questions I would be so appreciative. I am ready to purchase but change my mind daily on which way to go. Thank you in advance for any help you can offer!

louanne

[Ralph Undis]

I didn't see anything in your message about the software you would use for designing. That is an important part, especially for creating original designs. But, to your questions.
1. Ebay is pretty good for looking at used equipment. This one is also pretty good - Engravers Network (http://www.engraversnetwork.com/used-equipment-specials/). Epilog has a area for used equipment here (https://www.epiloglaser.com/laser-machines/preowned.htm).
2. Generally speaking, a laser from Trotec or Epilog will engrave faster than a Chinese laser. Trotec advertises as the fastest. Cutting is basically the same per wattage. Chinese do well for cutting.
3. Generally, you would stay 80 watt and under for engraving. Not sure what you mean by "delicate materials", but you can always run a 80watt laser at a low percentage.
4. A lot of people here have Chinese lasers. It depends on what you really want to make. You said 50% cutting and 50% engraving. I guess you would have to decide how important the engrave speed is to you.
5. It depens on how much you are wanting to cut 1/2" material. If so, 80-100watt is pretty much a given.
6. That's doable in larger sizes.

If you have Trotec and Epilog dealers close to you, get some sample material of what you want to make, and have both of them show you what their machine can do. They might even have some demo units for purchase. Good luck in your journey.

[Kev Williams]

Before the inevitable 'do a search' answer you'll get- ;)

... If you have $10 grand to spend, and you have no experience, but know what you want to do, my advice would be to scour local and online ads for used, "Western", aka "good" lasers, such as Trotec, Universal, Gravograph, Epilog, GCC etc., with RF metal or Ceramic laser sources rather than Chinese DC glass laser sources. The main differences between them:

1- learning and navigating glass lasers are like learning to drive for the first time in a Peterbilt semi with a 13 gear stick shift and split-gear differential, whereas learning and navigating RF lasers are like learning to drive in a BMW...! 90% of the niggly settings, like corner power, acc speed, acc/acc speeds, decel speeds, backlash adjustments, etc etc, all that nonsense is done for you in RF lasers via firmware. You can be engraving decent within minutes. When I got my Chinese Triumph, after 13 years of running RF lasers, it took me the better part of a week to get the hang of it! First thing I engraved, I burned clear thru the material, and the left-right and right-left alignment (backlash) was off by almost 1/4"! RF machines, much more forgiving, and just plain easier :)

2- I am of the opinion that a 10 year old Western laser will outlast a brand new Chinese machine. Many others will likely agree...

3- If you spend say, $8000 on a Chinese laser, and in 2 years you want to sell it, you might get $1500-$2000 for it. Maybe. If you spend $8000 on a 10 year old Western machine, in 2 years you can likely sell it for $8000...

You may find getting an 80w used western machine for $8 to $10 large tough to do, but consider a 60 or even 40 watt machine, my 40's will cut thru 1/4" material just fine. Not nearly as fast as 80 watts ;)

[Bert Kemp]

Every time I hear Glowforge I cringe theres no comparison between a glowforge and a real laser engraver cutter sorry just MHO.
?2.. I think the quality of engraving between the big 3 and a good Chinese machine is comparable altho the Chinese machine will be slower . When it comes to cutting there about the same.
?3... You say your cutting to engraving ratio will be about 50 to much power is not good for engravinga 100 watt laser is very hard to dial down power to get a good engraving. 80 watt is a very good compromise, engravings will be good and you still have enough cutting power 1/4" no problem 1/2" can be done might take a few passes.
?4 .... A good quality Chinese machine should not need anything and should give you years of good service. I have a Rabbit 6040-60watt that I bought a used demo and its been going good now 5 years. I don't use it full time but it gets used and is still on the original tube. I've had no major problems. I even had a fire that burned up the clear acrylic cover completely but nothing else was damage which I thought was amazing since the flames reached the ceiling. Luckily the job was done when the fire got going and the head moce to the default position and everything vital was out of the way.Look at Rabbit laser USA or Boss laser there pretty good to I hear.
?5 ....60watts will be good for engraving and cutting most things up to 1/4 if you really need half inch 80 would be better but still 1/2" will take more then 1 pass.
?6 My 6040 has a bed size 22x14 inches with pass thru door. I've never had to us the pass thru.
I'm sure others will chime in and tell you how great the big 3 are and I agree they are great machines but you pay a premium price for those even used ones.But if you can afford it go for it, if your on a budget look at a quality chinese laser.Thats my 2¢

[Sarah Fischer]

I didn't see anything in your message about the software you would use for designing. That is an important part, especially for creating original designs.

I didn’t know that it made a significant difference. I was almost going to purchase CorelDraw, as it seemed like that is what most people run and it is cheaper than Adobe, but I just had a long conversation with another laser user that has a Epilog and he runs Adobe Illustrator (he did mention that it would take an extra step to run the job from Illustrator). He was encouraging me to go with Adobe instead of Corel so I am curious as to what your experience has been, Ralph?

[Gary Hair]

I'm not Ralph but... 99% of laser users use Corel so the support base is there. The fact is that Adobe is more difficult to use, more expensive, and when you have problems (and you will), you will find support for lasering with Adobe difficult to find. More often than not Adobe users tend to have odd problems that nobody can explain or resolve when they use it with lasers. Stick with Corel, there is good reason why it's so popular!


I didn’t know that it made a significant difference. I was almost going to purchase CorelDraw, as it seemed like that is what most people run and it is cheaper than Adobe, but I just had a long conversation with another laser user that has a Epilog and he runs Adobe Illustrator (he did mention that it would take an extra step to run the job from Illustrator). He was encouraging me to go with Adobe instead of Corel so I am curious as to what your experience has been, Ralph?

[John Lifer]

I agree with Gary, UNLESS you already design and own Illustrator, go with CorelDraw. The resources are there for CD, not really for Illustrator. And CD IS way easier in my opinion to learn than Illustrator.

[Mike Null]

Go with Corel, by all means. buy a used western machine. Preferably Trotec. If Mike Clark is your Trotec rep you would be very fortunate.

[Ralph Undis]

I didn’t know that it made a significant difference. I was almost going to purchase CorelDraw, as it seemed like that is what most people run and it is cheaper than Adobe, but I just had a long conversation with another laser user that has a Epilog and he runs Adobe Illustrator (he did mention that it would take an extra step to run the job from Illustrator). He was encouraging me to go with Adobe instead of Corel so I am curious as to what your experience has been, Ralph?
I design everything in a CAD program called Draftsight. I then import into an old version of Illustrator - CS3, or Coreldraw, depending on my design. Corel sometimes does not import my CAD file correctly but Illustrator does. I started designing for industrial lasers and other high end CNC equipment in 1981, and it was all done using CAD. That is primarily how it is done today. I don't know any high end CNC machine shops who program their machines with Corel or Illustrator. But, I do think for non industrial CNC equipment, Corel works pretty well. I had to learn how to design in CAD and make everything tangent in the old days. Programs like Corel can do that, but they also let you fudge things by adding or subtracting nodes. I have 39 years in full time CAD design, about 20 years of part time Illustrator, and 2 years of part time Corel. If I was just starting out, I probably would pick Corel. Doug Green has a lot of pretty good videos on YouTube. Good resource for someone just starting with Corel. I would stay away from the subscription based Illustrator, and look for a used copy of CS6 on Ebay if you want one. I run a ULS VLS3.5 laser, and it runs off of either Illustrator or Corel.

[Kev Williams]

There's a nifty trick I've used since the second day I ever used Corel, to deal with "designing"... Get my customer(s) to do it! I've never had to 'design' anything. :)

As to changing non-vector artwork to usable toolpath/vector art to use in rotary tool, C02 and fiber laser programs, I've been doing that for so long it's second nature. Fortunately I still have 3 working versions of Casmate, an ancient program that has simply the easiest and most efficient tracing program I've ever used. I made a video a couple of years ago, where I took a customer's supplied art, digitized it, and had a small sample plate engraved, in less than 5 minutes. That's how I 'design'... :)

ok, found the video in case anyone's interested...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKXRiDrgzEk

-- Corel is your friend for lasering....

[Dave Sheldrake]

1. Are there any resources for finding used machines in the US or Canada?
2. Do you get the same quality of engraving and cutting from a chinese laser and a name brand laser of the same watts? there is some part of me that feels that the quality of items I produce will be better if I buy a name brand.
3. Will buying a higher watt machine be too much for more delicate engraving or delicate materials.
4. My husband and I both tinker. Would buying a chinese laser and then upgrading the weak components (motors, tubes, power supplies) work out or is it a bad idea to buy chinese.
5. Based on my business idea do you think 60w is enough or do I need 80w plus?
6. I find the bed sizes of lower watt machines are smaller. So I’d like a system with a pass through slot if possible or a bigger bed size.

1: Probably, I'm not in the US though so can't offer an informed opinion.

2: Kind of, some of the name brands that use DC tubes (Glass) are simply rebranded chinese machines. Cutting is cutting in general, speed isn't the defining factor when cutting, power is. Unless you get into multi kilowatt machines speed is never a limiting factor for cutting. RF (Brands like Epilog, Trotech, Universal etc) tends to be a more refined beam quality with a larger spread of available power (glass tubes don't like working below 10% actual power reliably)

3: This is where speed and power cross over, if you have too much power then more speed will take that problem away however as speed increases so does inertia, changing direction at 300mm per second is 4x harder than doing so at 150mm per second.

4: Not really, all the parts that can be upgraded will cost more than buying a higher quality machine to begin with. Servo vs stepper...not really anything to worry about until you get in to silly levels of speed and a LOT more expensive to replace if they go bang.

5: 80 watts in a glass tube is really the upper limit for quality engraving before you will struggle getting a low power setting, a 60 watt RF tube is plenty unless you plan on doing a lot of cutting. I used to use the CL1200 60 watt glass tube for engraving as it gives very good results and is really cheap to replace.

6: Whatever machine you buy, the first job you get will be too big to fit. My biggest machine was 4m x 3m bed size and 7.5kw and still jobs eventually arrived that didn't fit or it was the wrong machine to do them with. Get used to the idea that no one thing can do everything you need :) it's going to happen eventually :)

[Louanne Fournier]

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I’m not experienced with any of the design software but from what I’m reading my best bet is Corel. I think I read that engraving quality suffers when you get to 100w and up. I had finally settled on this machine ebayca/itm/Laser-Engraving-machine-6090-100W-WIFI-Ruida-CNC-Laser-Wood-Co2-Marking-Engraver/303133646398? but now after reading some of the messages I’m questioning my choice.

[Louanne Fournier]

I had settled on a chinese laser but I’m rethinking that. I’m going to look for a used machine. At this point speed isn’t too big of a consideration. If it gets to the point where speed is an issue I would probably have the money to upgrade to a faster syste. Thank you for your advice!

[Louanne Fournier]

Thank you for your advice. If you have a moment could you give your opinion on this machine. I may step down to 80w but I thought this seemed like a good system. Thank you!

[Louanne Fournier]

Thank you for taking the time to respond and offering advice. Greatly appreciated.

[Tony Lenkic]

Hi Louanne,

Did you search on KIJIJI? I have seen a Gravograph laser listed yesterday along with Trotec Speedy 300 (listed bit too high IMO).

[Louanne Fournier]

I’m in Canada, I did search kijiji but didn’t see anything. Do you know where that listing came from? Thank you!

i just found it! And it is in Toronto! Thank you!!

[Tony Lenkic]

Where are you located?

[Louanne Fournier]

I’m in Mississauga which is a suburb of Toronto.

[Tony Lenkic]

Good to know, All suppliers are in Mississauga for your convenience. Mike Clarke at Trotec is good contact to have.
I'm close by as well in Maple.

[Louanne Fournier]

I called Engravers network today and they put me onto mike Clark as well. Apparently he is a corel guru! Thanks for your help. Glad there are some fellow Canadians here :)