Reason #42 to by a slider saw

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I haven't seen this subject discussed much with sliding table saws, and it is one I completely underestimated the importance of when I bought my saw. Turns out, I'd buy one again just for this capability, regardless of the other 41 reasons. I see lots of discussion about how good sliders are with sheet stock, and they are, but they can be awesome on rough lumber to. Because sliders are a popular subject, I thought it might be useful to post some pics of this rough lumber milling technique.

Here's the problem at hand, my order of poplar for face frames came in messed up by someone at the mill not knowing how to set up their new Weinig double side planer. My S2S with a straight edge boards showed up looking like this, the straight edge is not, and one side has wane on both edges that won't plane out thick enough so it has to be cut off. Of course, this project is also already behind schedule and I didn't have time to wait for replacements:

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To deal with this the old fashioned way involved a jointer, then multiple table saw setups to yield 2" face frame stock. With a slider saw it's MUCH faster. First I rough cut to length on a chop saw knowing that the cut isn't square because I don't have a straight edge, but his enables me to get 3 pieces of face frame stock out of the places on the board where the wane is not as bad, rather than just running a straight edge on the whole board first. After the rough cut to length, simply hold the stock down on the slider carriage, you can use the clamps, I generally just use hand pressure against the crosscut fence and down. Line up the kerf to get the clean stock you want, in this pic I turned the stock slightly to maximize the usable. Note, I do use two hands, the saw is off and one hand is obviously taking a picture.

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Next just slide the now straight lined board to the rip fence to yield a piece of face frame stock. This particular board will yield two sticks.

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Next square one end of the stock, remember that the rough cut was probably not square. Note the stop is flipped up so I can square up one end and still be long.

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Last pass is to crosscut to length. Board was flipped so the new square end is now against the stop, this pass squares up the last end and unsquare face.

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All this takes seconds in practice, and no measuring or resetting of fences or stops. MUCH quicker than any other method that I know, and in this instance it allowed me to get this beast standing on its own today instead of waiting on the delivery truck to bring better lumber.

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[Mark e Kessler]

This has been discussed here a lot, also use the slider to crosscut....

[Steve Rozmiarek]

This has been discussed here a lot, also use the slider to crosscut....

There is lots of conversation about sliders, yes. Some of it even includes first hand real world experience and useful advice. ;)

[Erik Loza]

Steve, I had to read your post twice but bookmarked for future reference. Thanks for sharing.

Erik

[Ron Selzer]

Steve, thank you for the write up. Never knew anything about sliders until I got on this board. The more I read the more I think about digging along the house for an outside entrance to the basement to get a slider in the basement. Of course then I would have to get SWMBO to give up most of the basement to me. Any way this actual is a very good reason for buying a slider. I still won't give up my panel saws, SawStop or Radial Arm Saws, but now think a slider would be useful.
Ron

[ChrisA Edwards]

I have slider envy and one day I might find the $10K plus to buy a Felder K700S, but right now with my $30 slider jig, used to rip a straight edge on a long board, I've still got some money in pocket and room to walk around in my garage.

Seen here about to make to 8' cauls. Yes it's a Melamine shelf (Home Depot), finished edge goes against the tables fence. Multiple holes drilled to allow the clamps to be positioned to fit the wood to be cut.

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/RipStraightEdge_zpsvolatwb4.jpg

[Ben Schmidt]

LOL, Let me clarify - My advice was to do a search and use the slider to cross cut lumber, better?

Mark, this gentleman is simply sharing a great experience he had with his sliding table saw. No need to belittle his post by implying similar experiences have been posted before. We can all appreciate a real-world story demonstrating the benefit of a particular piece of machinery.

[Edwin Santos]

I have slider envy and one day I might find the $10K plus to buy a Felder K700S, but right now with my $30 slider jig, used to rip a straight edge on a long board, I've still got some money in pocket and room to walk around in my garage.

Seen here about to make to 8' cauls. Yes it's a Melamine shelf (Home Depot), finished edge goes against the tables fence. Multiple holes drilled to allow the clamps to be positioned to fit the wood to be cut.

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/RipStraightEdge_zpsvolatwb4.jpg

Hi, If I understand your jig correctly, the aluminum T track can be popped out and moved to the other sets of holes?
Very nice!

I could see a variation of this jig to make long tapers or safely cut other odd shapes at the table saw.
Edwin

[Mark e Kessler]

Yea, sorry to the op about that I really need to limit myself here


Mark, this gentleman is simply sharing a great experience he had with his sliding table saw. No need to belittle his post by implying similar experiences have been posted before. We can all appreciate a real-world story demonstrating the benefit of a particular piece of machinery.

[Rod Sheridan]

Steve, thank you for the write up. Never knew anything about sliders until I got on this board. The more I read the more I think about digging along the house for an outside entrance to the basement to get a slider in the basement. Of course then I would have to get SWMBO to give up most of the basement to me. Any way this actual is a very good reason for buying a slider. I still won't give up my panel saws, SawStop or Radial Arm Saws, but now think a slider would be useful.
Ron

Ron, I gave up all other saws except the band saw when I got a slider. Now, I will admit I didn't have a panel saw as I can't carry a sheet of plywood downstairs.....Rod.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Hi, If I understand your jig correctly, the aluminum T track can be popped out and moved to the other sets of holes?
Very nice!

I could see a variation of this jig to make long tapers or safely cut other odd shapes at the table saw.
Edwin

I initially went with all the holes, but after using it a few times, I put the T track on as that was the most common location to anchor the clamps and was just easier to setup for different lengths of wood.

[Mike Kees]

Steve why are you still using a chop saw to cut to length ? Way quicker and more accurate to throw it on your wagon and use the fence as a stop/flips stops for length.

[Jim Andrew]

I don't use much plywood any more, and use the slider to straight line my solid lumber. Saw my own lumber with a band mill, and have gone to just cutting it live edge. Saves turning the log as much, but does take up more room in the stack. But sometimes I get a little more width of board than if I had cut the edge off on the mill.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve why are you still using a chop saw to cut to length ? Way quicker and more accurate to throw it on your wagon and use the fence as a stop/flips stops for length.

It's just because of how my shop lays out. The lumber comes in on a semi, into the loading dock which is about a 200 ft walk from the machines. I also order in as long of stock as I can get usually 16', so there is a chop saw back there to break down to get stuff to fit on a cart better. Like all shops I suppose, mine is a bit of an obstacle course so rolling around 16' long boards on a cart isn't exactly easy. I need to rearrange, but this is the process for now.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have slider envy and one day I might find the $10K plus to buy a Felder K700S, but right now with my $30 slider jig, used to rip a straight edge on a long board, I've still got some money in pocket and room to walk around in my garage.

Seen here about to make to 8' cauls. Yes it's a Melamine shelf (Home Depot), finished edge goes against the tables fence. Multiple holes drilled to allow the clamps to be positioned to fit the wood to be cut.



Good jig! I have one very similar hanging out in my shop. Destato clamps though. I made a 2x4 infeed extension for the cabinet saw so that it was more controllable to feed. Can get pretty heavy with a big board clamped to it. Just to grease the slider skids a little, that process I showed, it takes longer to clamp one board on the jig than to process a rough stock part on all four sides. ;)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, I had to read your post twice but bookmarked for future reference. Thanks for sharing.

Erik

I need an editor Erik, sometimes my writing is a bit, um, pedantic. Thanks for the compliment. Seeing your post made remember the part I need to order for my saw, off to do that!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, thank you for the write up. Never knew anything about sliders until I got on this board. The more I read the more I think about digging along the house for an outside entrance to the basement to get a slider in the basement. Of course then I would have to get SWMBO to give up most of the basement to me. Any way this actual is a very good reason for buying a slider. I still won't give up my panel saws, SawStop or Radial Arm Saws, but now think a slider would be useful.
Ron

It'd be a great to have outside access to the shop anyway to!! You wouldn't regret a slider, they are quite a machine.

[Erik Loza]

I need an editor Erik, sometimes my writing is a bit, um, pedantic. Thanks for the compliment. Seeing your post made remember the part I need to order for my saw, off to do that!

Steve, I have a local customer with a big Kappa slider who just received some Airtight clamps from Mac and one of Brian Lamb's parallel cutting fences. I'll try to make it to his shop soon and take some pics. I like seeing all the tricks, too.

Erik

[Mark e Kessler]

Apologies for the snarky remark, now that I reread your post several times I have a little more context for a reply instead of a quick glance and a stupid reply.

I mostly use my slider with solid although in the past mostly all sheet goods, a lot of times my solid processing is similar to yours, just using hand pressure and eyeballing for the kerf ( I think that's what you mean?).

I have found that Pneumatic Clamps can help a tremendous amount, I wasn’t a total believer as I have always just held the wood in place and never had a problem. Once I built my Pneumatic clamps I would never go back, I don’t use them all the time like when breaking down full sheets but for solid wood they excel - the finished cuts are better, quick/easy to do angle cuts and safer too. I also have Felders parallel fence, haven’t had a need for it much but is useful. Photos of some setups below.

1st photo I am using the rip fence as a bump stop set at the depth of the groove on this reclaimed cherry flooring so I can quickly rip them off.
2nd photo is just a quick setup to to cut a bunch of angles on the same size blocks
3rd photo I was just experimenting, I haven't had a need to do this

(In the last photo with the feather boards, the clamp base was temporary, it was laminated solid oak to my surprise it was actually robust enough if I hadn’t got a machinist at work started on the aluminum ones I probably would have just used them).

Also just to be clear these are not Mac’s clamps, his have more features, uses all premium materials and Mac provides product support like no other from what I have seen and read - you won’t find a more refined or well thought out one.


There is lots of conversation about sliders, yes. Some of it even includes first hand real world experience and useful advice. ;)
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[Tom Bain]

Mark -- Not to hijack the thread, but could you give a little more detail on the ZCI you made for your slider. I need to come up with something similar for mine.

Thanks.

[Will Blick]

Chris, brilliant jig ! I think we all appreciate this benefit of a slider, i.e to straighten an edge, when the other side is not straight as well. Your jig allows the same... albeit, u still need equal space on each side of the saw as a slider will.

My quesiton is... when you load the wood onto the slider, 70%+ of the weight of the slider is hanging off the TS. How do you support the jig so it's not constantly encumbered by the supports?

I have to get a straight edge on hundreds of 2x4s to acheive a flat wall for sheet rock, for a staggered stud wall. So the loss of some of the 3.5" dimension is a non issue. I was thinking of using my single piece long Festool rail, but when the boards are not flat, this is problematic for a rail. Your slider on my cabinet saw might be the ideal solution...

[Larry Edgerton]

I need to buy a new one, bought mine new 28 years ago What did you buy Steve, likes/dislikes? You can Messsage on FB if you would rather, sorry. Have been thinking about one of those Lamello gizmos, just picked up a couple more kitchens, almost no construction any more, and I keep coming up with real world uses for it as I do different things. If I get one I will get ahold of you and send you some made up joints to play with. Larry

[Rick Potter]

Thanks Steve. I appreciate learning various techniques.

I have had several sliders over the last 20 years, but have never used them for much more than sheet goods, and I am finally taking a few steps further into the slider world with a MM Combo machine I recently got. I have searched for any postings, or videos available, saving them as I found them.

I can hardly wait to see your other 41 tutorials.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, I have a local customer with a big Kappa slider who just received some Airtight clamps from Mac and one of Brian Lamb's parallel cutting fences. I'll try to make it to his shop soon and take some pics. I like seeing all the tricks, too.

Erik

Hope you post some pics Erik! Always good to see how others approach the issues.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Apologies for the snarky remark, now that I reread your post several times I have a little more context for a reply instead of a quick glance and a stupid reply.

I mostly use my slider with solid although in the past mostly all sheet goods, a lot of times my solid processing is similar to yours, just using hand pressure and eyeballing for the kerf ( I think that's what you mean?).

I have found that Pneumatic Clamps can help a tremendous amount, I wasn’t a total believer as I have always just held the wood in place and never had a problem. Once I built my Pneumatic clamps I would never go back, I don’t use them all the time like when breaking down full sheets but for solid wood they excel - the finished cuts are better, quick/easy to do angle cuts and safer too. I also have Felders parallel fence, haven’t had a need for it much but is useful. Photos of some setups below.

1st photo I am using the rip fence as a bump stop set at the depth of the groove on this reclaimed cherry flooring so I can quickly rip them off.
2nd photo is just a quick setup to to cut a bunch of angles on the same size blocks
3rd photo I was just experimenting, I haven't had a need to do this

(In the last photo with the feather boards, the clamp base was temporary, it was laminated solid oak to my surprise it was actually robust enough if I hadn’t got a machinist at work started on the aluminum ones I probably would have just used them).

Also just to be clear these are not Mac’s clamps, his have more features, uses all premium materials and Mac provides product support like no other from what I have seen and read - you won’t find a more refined or well thought out one.




No worries Mark, I'm not offended. Nice saw you have! The reason I was using the technique I posted was for speed. If I am going for perfect precision, especially on longer stock, I add a clamp or two to the carriage. I don't have air clamps, just the Felder manual ones. There was a pretty good pile of face frame to process for those cabinets I was working on, so I wanted to just set up once and not mess with anything. The way I posted allows that, and with very good speed. You could definitely use clamps instead of hand pressure. Your air clamps are faster than my manual ones, they wouldn't slow you down much once you got it setup.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I need to buy a new one, bought mine new 28 years ago What did you buy Steve, likes/dislikes? You can Messsage on FB if you would rather, sorry. Have been thinking about one of those Lamello gizmos, just picked up a couple more kitchens, almost no construction any more, and I keep coming up with real world uses for it as I do different things. If I get one I will get ahold of you and send you some made up joints to play with. Larry

Hi Larry! This is a Felder CF741. It's a combo machine that I got years ago when I was in a smaller space. I would not go with combo again for a production shop, but it's fine for serious hobby type work. I saw your post on the Lamello thread and have been pondering the same. If you do get one, heck yes I'd like to see some of what it does. Expensive little gadgets, want to make sure they aren't just dust magnets in the shop. Last year for me was all remodels and additions, not much cabinet shop time, this year has already made me tired of being in my windowless shop. Funny how things change year to year.

[Larry Edgerton]

Put some windows in your shop! But I know what you mean, when the temps get down in the 0 range I have styrofoam covers I put on the inside till spring, drives me nuts.

[Erik Loza]

Steve, do you by chance use a power feeder on your machine? Reason I ask because one of my local guys took delivery of his KF not too long ago and ordered the tipper bracket with a gas piston. There apparently are two versions of tipper bracket. One with piston (newer) and the old style, which I assumed they all were. Anyhow, we got this piston-assisted one installed and you can literally swing over a 4-wheel feeder with one had. It was unbelievable.

Erik

[ChrisA Edwards]

Chris, brilliant jig ! I think we all appreciate this benefit of a slider, i.e to straighten an edge, when the other side is not straight as well. Your jig allows the same... albeit, u still need equal space on each side of the saw as a slider will.

My quesiton is... when you load the wood onto the slider, 70%+ of the weight of the slider is hanging off the TS. How do you support the jig so it's not constantly encumbered by the supports?


I positioned my SawStop with 8' of out feed clearance without having to open my garage door. I have about 60" of outfeed support beyond the blade. If I need more outfeed I have to open the garage door and use a support roller.

For the infeed side, I purchased one of the scissor roller stands from Woodcraft ($200). It was expensive, but it has come in handy for ripping sheet goods as well. I made some leg extensions to give it a bit more height for resawing support on my bandsaw.

I can back this away from the saw and comfortably support 12', even though my jig is not long enough for that.


https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/SuoermaxRollerSupport_zpsg1qacvtr.jpg

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/RollerStand1_zpsckq7aybm.jpg

[Mark e Kessler]

Sure, I used 19mm BB and cut the “L” shape on the saw. I used the one that came with the saw as the template to drill the hole locations and route the curves using double stick tape, I just used a tap for the set screws. I took the riving knife off and ran the blade up through the blank I then took it lowered the blade all the way installed the original insert flipped the zci face down adjusted the rip fence so the kerf lined up and raised the blade up to extend the kerf for the riving knife. Probably safer to do it with a jigsaw though. Here are a few extra pics

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Mark -- Not to hijack the thread, but could you give a little more detail on the ZCI you made for your slider. I need to come up with something similar for mine.

Thanks.

[Greg Parrish]

Steve, do you by chance use a power feeder on your machine? Reason I ask because one of my local guys took delivery of his KF not too long ago and ordered the tipper bracket with a gas piston. There apparently are two versions of tipper bracket. One with piston (newer) and the old style, which I assumed they all were. Anyhow, we got this piston-assisted one installed and you can literally swing over a 4-wheel feeder with one had. It was unbelievable.

Erik

that’s how the bracket is on my KF500 Pro. In fact if you don’t extend the feeder out to just the right spot there isn’t enough weight leverage to overcome the piston sometimes and hold it down when folded out of the way. It’s very simple to flip it over for use for sure.

[Erik Loza]

that’s how the bracket is on my KF500 Pro. In fact if you don’t extend the feeder out to just the right spot there isn’t enough weight leverage to overcome the piston sometimes and hold it down when folded out of the way. It’s very simple to flip it over for use for sure.

In the early days, we only had the hinge-type bracket. If there happened to be a machine in the showroom with a feeder mounted to it, the inside joke was, “Just sort-of start it moving so the customer can see what is supposed to happen but UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, do the full movement as part of the demo”, LOL. It was murder trying to get a 4-wheel feeder back up and over.

Once we got his feeder (a 4-wheel DC Comatic; awesome feeder, BTW) mounted to the piston bracket, it’s like it’s suspended by air. Unbelievable! I couldn’t stop playing with it. Like you said, Greg, you actually have to push it down a little bit if you want to run a board.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

I process all my lumber in this way generally...I flatten and thickness at the J/P after rough cutting to lengths and then the flat stock goes on the wagon for a nice straight line rip on one side. Ripping to width is either on the wagon with my friends "Fritz and Franz" or with the rip fence in a traditional way if that's the better way for a particular component. (I'm not a production shop, but if I were, I'd bound between straight line on the wagon and rip-to-width on the fence probably for speed) I pretty much NEVER edge joint because cutting this way provides a glue ready edge. And then the crosscutting using the wagon finishes up component creation.

I actually have a commission that just hit for 12 doors (equestrian lockers) that will allow me to componentize all the rails and stiles very quickly where every component will be exactly the same size across the project for its given purpose. That will let things go together really smoothly and they will be easier to keep square, too.

I use very little sheet goods compared to solid stock on my slider...

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, do you by chance use a power feeder on your machine? Reason I ask because one of my local guys took delivery of his KF not too long ago and ordered the tipper bracket with a gas piston. There apparently are two versions of tipper bracket. One with piston (newer) and the old style, which I assumed they all were. Anyhow, we got this piston-assisted one installed and you can literally swing over a 4-wheel feeder with one had. It was unbelievable.

Erik

I do have a feeder on a manual bracket. It is a serious workout to flip it up, definitely want to make sure everything is locked down to. I'm a big guy so it's not that big of a deal, but one of my co workers isn't and he physically can't flip it up without help. Good to know there is an assisted model, that sounds like a really good option!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mark, that's clever how you added mass to the bottom of the ZCI so the left edge doesn't get fluttery. The factory ones that I've used don't have that and they are not long for this world.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I process all my lumber in this way generally...I flatten and thickness at the J/P after rough cutting to lengths and then the flat stock goes on the wagon for a nice straight line rip on one side. Ripping to width is either on the wagon with my friends "Fritz and Franz" or with the rip fence in a traditional way if that's the better way for a particular component. (I'm not a production shop, but if I were, I'd bound between straight line on the wagon and rip-to-width on the fence probably for speed) I pretty much NEVER edge joint because cutting this way provides a glue ready edge. And then the crosscutting using the wagon finishes up component creation.

I actually have a commission that just hit for 12 doors (equestrian lockers) that will allow me to componentize all the rails and stiles very quickly where every component will be exactly the same size across the project for its given purpose. That will let things go together really smoothly and they will be easier to keep square, too.

I use very little sheet goods compared to solid stock on my slider...

Jim, your post made me think about the last time I used the jointer, and I don't remember it for edge jointing. It's been a while! Did some face jointing a while back, but that's a different animal. BTW, careful, 12 doors is how you start to become a production shop ;)

[Jim Becker]

Jim, your post made me think about the last time I used the jointer, and I don't remember it for edge jointing. It's been a while! Did some face jointing a while back, but that's a different animal. BTW, careful, 12 doors is how you start to become a production shop ;)

About the only time I "joint" edges at this point is for a bookmatched top for a guitar body and for that I use a quckie "shooting board" type setup on my bench with a hand plane that I learned from Brian Holcombe not long ago. As to the doors...it's a one-off. The equestrian farm owner is a woodworker himself to a certain degree, but doesn't have the time or tools to do these locker doors. I guess I do do "production" in some sense in that a good chunk of my business work is sub-contract making parts and related. Some of it is identical units; some of it is unique one-off, but yea...I'm "producing it" :D

[Mike Kees]

My stock prep sequence is always evolving. Currently I start at my slider to get a straight edge if a board needs it,next rough cut to length on slider. Then I rip to width on my bandsaw to save wood. The next step is my jointer to flatten a face and hit one edge to square. Then it is thickness planer to desired thickness. If I am doing stiles and rails or anything that requires uniform widths I finish at my shaper with an outboard fence and rebate head to finished width . Love the shaper part,I get finish quality surfaces on one edge with perfectly uniform width,then mill other side for profiles.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, if you flatten first, you can eliminate the edge jointing as Steve and I have been commiserating about. Flattening and thicknessing first also means you can really see what you have in the material so you can determine where those edges will best serve your project...and it may not be parallel to the original board. The slider makes that really easy as the first straight line can be in any orientation with the material on the wagon. It's a "finesse" thing that can take a great project and make it an eye-popping project in some cases.

[Mike Kees]

It is more the way my machines are situated than choice of straight line or jointer for edge work. My jointer and planer are side by side and the bandsaw is very close to these two,slider is further away. Usually it only takes one light pass on my jointer after ripping on the bandsaw. My jointer is a 16'' Paolini that has an 89'' bed so pretty easy to flatten and do edges. I get the slider speed for straight line rips and use it for long pieces 9'-10' long.I will try your system when grain is more important,lately I have been using Maple for a big project and it has been all about getting maximum usable stock.

[Jim Becker]

That makes sense, Mike. But yea...when the object is to really pop something relative to grain, the slider is a wonderful tool!