Backsaw with hybrid filing?

[Rob Luter]

Looking to add a backsaw to supplement my dovetail and carcass saws. I guess the logical choice would be a tenon saw, but most I’ve found are filed rip and I’d like to have something I could used for crosscuts too.

A couple makers offer a hybrid filing that is represented to cut rip and cross equally. That could mean equally good or equally bad. Any experience among Creekers?

[Scott Winners]

I have fiddled with this some in regular handsaws. I haven't sharpened a back saw yet because the teeth are soooo little. I did put a hybrid grind on one of my saws, straight off the bad axe website - only I don't have a good way to stone the edges of the teeth - so YMMV. I am pretty sure I put my observations in the saw sharpening thread I started, but what I remember was the hybrid grind ripped better than any of my crosscuts saws, and crosscut way better than any of my ripsaws. But it didn't crosscut as good as a dedicated cross, and it didn't rip as good as a dedicated rip. The one task the hybrid was really really good at for me was resawing figured hardwood.

I suspect if I had a dependable repeatable way to stone the outside edges of the teeth, put facets on them, it would likely crosscut better.

If both your existing dovetail and carcass saws are filed rip why not just get a backsaw filed cross? I see the Lee Valley/ Veritas carcass is available in either rip or cross pattern. It is ugly, but it is likely a good tool for the price.

Best wishes

[Scott Winners]

I went poking on the bad axe website. In the products/ services tab there is an article "hybrid filing demystified.

Within that article is a quote "Heck no. Nothing beats a dedicated Rip for ripping and nothing beats a dedicated cross for crosscuts...but if you are on a budget or want to simplify"

For the price of one of their carcass saws I could get two vintage Disston back saws, a magnified visor and saw filing guide from veritas, a box of premium saw files and have enough cash left over to take my wife out for tapas, but I would have to invest some time in the saws.

I am confident bad axe saws will be just as desirable as golden age disston in another 100 years, but I am not in their weight class for pricing in this lifetime.

That grind kicks butt for resawing figured hardwood in a 12 point 24 inch saw though. I am glad to have one in my till.

[Rob Luter]

That's pretty much what I figured. One size fits all usually means doesn't fit anyone that great. My research has found that those that do offer a hybrid filing (Bad Axe, Gramercy) are very proud of it. LN used to offer their Tenon Saw in Rip and Crosscut, but discontinued their Crosscut version. I asked them about a special order but they declined and pointed me to their Panel Saws. I've tried those and they're nowhere near stiff enough.

I'm almost kicking myself for divesting all my old backsaws. I had some vintage Disston and Jackson specimens that gave me a pair of carcass saws and pair of tenon saws in Rip and CC. The problem was that the plates were pretty thick and the sets were generous. In short they cut like crazy but the results were less than precise. They got caught up in the great tool purge of 2018 along with about a dozen other saws. The intent was to fund some new saws, but then the LN CC tenon was discontinued. I love my LN Dovetail and Carcass saws. They cut like lasers but they're filed pretty fine and thicker stock gets problematic.

I'm planning on attending the LN open house this summer. Maybe I'll do some groveling and see if they'll reconsider a custom tooth on a tenon saw.

[Tony Zaffuto]

First, I have a Disston backsaw, 15pt rip, that does an admirable job of crosscut, if the need arises. Saw was filed by Pete Taran, a number of years back, and Pete, with Patrick Leach, were the founders of Independence Saw, the company that started the revival of saw making, a few decades ago. Independence was sold to LN, and that was the beginning of LN's saw business.

Second, a couple of months ago, out of curiousity, I bought a hybrid filed saw from Josh Clark (search for Hyperkitten Tool), and though the saw does a decent job on either rip or CC, I don't find myself instinctively reaching for it (it was freshly sharpened by a well known sawsmith). As I said, I've only had the saw a few months and that is not sufficient time to form a firm opinion. I believe Josh may still have a hybrid saw for sale, so this may be a fairly low cost was to try one.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I hae not had a problem using my dovetail saws for doing cross-cuts. And I love the filing on my Bad Axe dovetail saws. I believe that I do not have a "dedicated rip" filing, but what-ever it is, it is my favorite saw. I must admit, however, that I have not noticed any issues with my Lie Nielson or my Lee Valley saw. I do own a dedicated cross-cut (Tenon) saw, but I rarely ever use it.

I am afraid to sharpen my Bad Axe saw, and I have had Lie Nielson sharpen their saw for me. The Lee Valley saw, that I actually purchased for my 14 year-old daughter, I sharpened that myself and it came out great. I am very new at sharpening saws, just so that we are clear.

Andrew

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]
I am afraid to sharpen my Bad Axe saw, and I have had Lie Nielson sharpen their saw for me. The Lee Valley saw, that I actually purchased for my 14 year-old daughter, I sharpened that myself and it came out great. I am very new at sharpening saws, just so that we are clear.

Andrew

My saw sharpening needs improvement. Even with a sloppy filing a saw seems to cut better than when it was dull.

Recently one of my poorly sharpened saws was refiled. It worked pretty good before refiling. Afterwards it worked wonderfully.

It took a bit of care to reshape the teeth. It was worth it as an educational experience in saw filing.

My advice for anyone with a few saws is to go find a cheap saw at a yard sale. Pick up a new three corner file at a hardware store. Read the tutorial on vintagesaws.com and try filing your cheap yard sale find. If one is really motivated, file it rip, use it then file it crosscut. You may be surprised by your results. If it is an unwanted saw, give it to a friend or keep it in the trunk of your car for emergencies like finding some long piece of free wood.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

I fully agree with Jim Koepke. My first ham fisted attempt at sharpening gave surprisingly good results. I do personally prefer to have a strong point source of light from the side rather than overhead flood lighting, and I am going to need magnification to take on back saws, but saw sharpening is easy.

[Jim Koepke]

I fully agree with Jim Koepke. My first ham fisted attempt at sharpening gave surprisingly good results. I do personally prefer to have a strong point source of light from the side rather than overhead flood lighting, and I am going to need magnification to take on back saws, but saw sharpening is easy.

To me the hardest part is to make sure each tooth gets the same amount of filing and pressure after they have their basic shape set.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I like to have a light situated so a freshly sharpened tooth shines right back at me. It clearly shows which is the next tooth. Also, enough light from the top that clearly shows how much to file each tooth. So I really have lighting from two directions.

The tooth reflection, on a jobsite, is done with an LED worklight on an adjustable stand that gets moved from the first side to the second. I've been intending to have two lights for that, with switches in the shop, but haven't gotten around to it yet. My favorite light for this, so far, is a single round LED headed worlight, on an easily adjustable stand that came from Lowes. It's not much trouble to move it from one side to the other.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm mostly building with air dried cherry and oak.

More than 10 teeth per inch, filed rip, manage my crosscuts without difficulty. The only dedicated saw I have is a monster ORSA for plywood.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I'm mostly building with air dried cherry and oak.

More than 10 teeth per inch, filed rip, manage my crosscuts without difficulty. The only dedicated saw I have is a monster ORSA for plywood.

My own experience is similar: in hardwoods in general my 11+ TPI rip saws do a good job of crosscutting, particularly when I knife/chisel the line and when the saws are freshly sharpened. While they do "just fine" in softwood, too, my dedicated crosscut saw does better; faster cuts and a slightly better surface finish. That said, if I'm going to be planing the end grain anyway I don't worry about the surface finish off the saw so much.

I have never tried a hybrid saw.

[lowell holmes]

Check this site

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=969&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNRzZDVYaizimk5uF1P3igmfnEy3ng%3A1580660 232649&sa=1&ei=CPY2Xt6hJ4-isAXFkJ34Cg&q=used+disston+saws&oq=used+disston+saws&gs_l=img.3...26836.36001..37074...0.0..0.72.687.13 ......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i8i30j0i24j0.9qgLvdnbqmM&ved=0ahUKEwjexbWdorPnAhUPEawKHUVIB68Q4dUDCAc&uact=5#imgrc=qFHyNFjXYmRh1M: