Anyone knowledgeable about computer hard drives, i need some help

[Mark Hennebury]

In November 2019 purchased a New Dell workstation computer for doing Solidworks 3D modeling,
In December i purchased a BenQ 32 workstation monitor.
The monitor arrived December 24th.
I hooked up the new system and within the day it was going to blue screen and refusing to start.
I spent five days trying all of the fixes and downloads that Dell recomends and most i could find on YouTube and the internet in general.
Nothing worked
Dell sent in a technician to replaced the motherboard, SSD, memory, heat sink and new Operating system. Still wont start.
After a load of emails and a few weeks they have finally agreed to replace it. With "like or better parts" And it should only take another month to arrive.

I suggested a nice gesture for my lost time and inconvenience would be a performance upgrade.

This is what they have offered as a replacement.
The hard drives are what they have changed, No explanation of why they cant supply the same as the original'
Anyone have an explanation or opinion?
Have they offered me more than i had ?
Which is a better system for what i wanted to use it for?
I was of the understanding that the original SSD and Sata drive was better than what they have offered as a replacement, is that right?
I am a little lost at the moment so any opinions would be welcome.


The first offer below;




Desktop
Original
Replacement Offered


System Model
Dell Outlet Precision T3630
Dell Precision T3630


Processor
Intel Core 9th Generation i7-9700K Processor (8 Core, up to 4.90Ghz, 12MB Cache, 95W)
Intel Core i7-9700K, 8 Core, 12MB Cache, 3.6Ghz, 4.9 Ghz Turbo w/UHD Graphics 630


Memory
16GB (2X8GB) 2666MHz DDR4 UDIMM Non-ECC
16GB 2X8GB DDR4 2666MHz UDIMM Non-ECC Memory


HDD

2TB 3.5inch SATA Hard Drive (7200 RPM) + 512GB M.2 PCIe NVMe Class 40 Solid State Drive

3.5" 2TB 7200rpm SATA Hard Disk Drive + 3.5 inch 2TB 7200rpm SATA Hard Disk Drive


Video Card
NVIDIA Quadro P400 2GB (3 mDP to DP adapter)
NVIDIA Quadro P400, 2GB, 3 mDP to DP adapter


OS
Windows 10 Pro for Workstations (up to 4 Cores)
Windows 10 Pro 64bit English, French, Spanish


Wireless
No Wireless LAN Card
No Wireless LAN Card


Optical Drive
8X DVD+/-RW
8x DVD+/-RW 9.5mm Optical Disk Drive


Chassis
Tower chassis with 300W up to 90% efficient PSU (80Plus Gold) no SD card reader v2
Precision 3630 Tower with 300W up to 90% efficient PSU (80Plus Gold) no SD card reader v2




The second offer below.



Desktop
Original
Replacement Offered


System Model
Dell Outlet Precision T3630
Dell Precision T3630


Processor
Intel Core 9th Generation i7-9700K Processor (8 Core, up to 4.90Ghz, 12MB Cache, 95W)
Intel Core i7-9700K, 8 Core, 12MB Cache, 3.6Ghz, 4.9 Ghz Turbo w/UHD Graphics 630


Memory
16GB (2X8GB) 2666MHz DDR4 UDIMM Non-ECC
16GB 2X8GB DDR4 2666MHz UDIMM Non-ECC Memory


HDD

2TB 3.5inch SATA Hard Drive (7200 RPM) + 512GB M.2 PCIe NVMe Class 40 Solid State Drive

2.5" 1TB SATA Class 20 Solid State Drive + 2.5 inch 2TB 5400rpm SATA Hard Disk Drive


Video Card
NVIDIA Quadro P400 2GB (3 mDP to DP adapter)
NVIDIA Quadro P400, 2GB, 3 mDP to DP adapter


OS
Windows 10 Pro for Workstations (up to 4 Cores)
Windows 10 Pro 64bit English, French, Spanish


Wireless
No Wireless LAN Card
No Wireless LAN Card


Optical Drive
8X DVD+/-RW
8x DVD+/-RW 9.5mm Optical Disk Drive


Chassis
Tower chassis with 300W up to 90% efficient PSU (80Plus Gold) no SD card reader v2
Precision 3630 Tower with 300W up to 90% efficient PSU (80Plus Gold) no SD card reader v2


Hard drive config
Cable - C5 M.2 SSD + 3.5 1-3 HD
C2 2.5 inch Boot HD with optional 1-3 2.5 inch HD

[John K Jordan]

Just a guess for the change - maybe they discovered that something on the motherboard had problems with SSD and they don't want to admit it.

I didn't dig thru and help with all the options, but I do prefer SSD drives. I have no HDs but put two 500Gig SSD in my Dell laptop and they are quite fast.

The extra capacity of the second HD might be nice but it's so easy to add extra capacity today with external drives if needed. I have 3TB, 4TB, and 5TB Western digital external drives I plug into the laptop as needed, both for extra capacity and on rotation for backup redundancy (seamless and painless with Macrium Reflect)

Does the last line of the second option the cable and space is there for several more internal drives? I don't see that on the first option.

I assume you have previously determined the video chipset on that machine will play nicely with your 3D modeler.

JKJ

[Paul F Franklin]

OK, there are a million fine points that I am blowing by, but to keep this simple:

You've been offered a mix of storage, conventional rotating storage (the 5400 RPM and 7200 RPM Sata drives), and solid state storage, either Dell Class 20 or Class 40.

In general, a solid state drive accesses data much faster than a rotating drive. For a windows 10 system, especially one being used for 3D modeling, you want a good bit of solid state storage.

A Class 40 SSD has better performance than a Class 20 SSD.

In rotating storage, a 7200 RPM drive can access and transfer data a little faster than a 5400 RPM drive, but the difference is not nearly so much as the difference between rotating and solid state.

Your original system was 2TB of 7200 rotating and .5TB Class 40 SSD.
Your second offer is 1 TB of Class 20 SSD and 2 TB of 5400 RPM rotating.

So they are offering you a little more total storage capacity (3 TB vs 2.5 TB) but all of it is lower performing. That is offset somewhat by having a larger SSD drive which means more of your "stuff" can be on the higher performing drive. It's really hard to know whether this will make a difference in your case; too many variables and unknowns.

Now for the hard part: will you notice the difference? Maybe, but I doubt it. I think you would be in your rights to press them for the Class 40 SSD; but it would be a real hard choice if it came down to choosing between a 1 TB Class 20 or a .5TB Class 40. I'd probably take the 1 TB Class 20.

I wouldn't sweat the RPM difference on the rotating drive either way.

[Tom M King]

I have built my own computers since sometime in the early '90's. Maybe ten years ago, the prices of brand name computers had come down close to the cost of the parts, so when the time came for the next one, I decided to just buy a Dell. Good grief, that was a mistake.

Windows 10 had been out long enough that I decided to upgrade. That Dell had come with Windows 8. I went to upgrade the BIOS, and couldn't do it. No way to update the OS. Not only that, but it came filled with Bloatware that was impossible to get rid of. It would lock up, and no ordinary effort would work to get it back up. I always had to contact Dell. Their answer was always to wipe the hard drive, and reinstall everything. After about the third time that happened, for just simple stuff that would have taken 10 minutes to clear up with a clean computer, I decided to just toss it, and went back to building clean ones.

When I was in the middle of that Dell BS, I did some Google searching, and found that it was really common with Dell computers. I doubt I'll ever own another name brand computer. They want to keep their fingers in it Way too much to suit me.

Good Luck Mark!

[Curt Harms]

I've done roll-your-own desktops since dinosaurs roamed the earth (only a slight exaggeration;)). You're right, it's nice to have control over my computer plus I wonder about the quality of consumer grade machines' components. Some that buy name brand machines - with laptops we don't have a whole lot of choice - replace the hard drive. It's probably smart to do an initial setup so the machine is 'registered' with Microsoft. Remove the included hard drive and replace with a new SSD and a Windows version downloaded from Microsoft. At least that avoids the 3rd party crap and Manufacturer added crap. If warranty service is required reinsert the original hard drive.Once the warranty has expired you could use the original hard drive for backups, additional storage or whatever.

[Paul F Franklin]

Some that buy name brand machines - with laptops we don't have a whole lot of choice - replace the hard drive.

Many, if not most, of the newer low profile laptops have the SSD integrated on the motherboard. Some can still be swapped out, but it's more complicated than sliding the drive out the side like the older laptops.

[mike stenson]

A couple thoughts.

1. I doubt that you're going to see the bus (SATA vs PCIe) as your bottleneck, generally, from what you've stated so far.
2. SSD is faster, however, it's not really that simple. For example, sequential reads and writes are much faster on a rotational drive. Also, if the OS and applications are stored on the solid state device, and your rotational device is used for file storage the speed difference between the two will likely be unnoticed in use. Although, rotating drives are going to be gone soon enough that even that won't matter anymore anyway.

With that all said, I haven't costed the difference between the two drives, especially considering that the SATA is twice the size.

I also kind of find this interesting, as really.. there's not much else (although, it could be a power supply issue now that I think about it).


Dell sent in a technician to replaced the motherboard, SSD, memory, heat sink and new Operating system. Still wont start.

Oh, and soldered PCIe storage on laptops is really a function of form factor, more than anything else.

[Edwin Santos]

A couple thoughts.


2. SSD is faster, however, it's not really that simple. For example, sequential reads and writes are much faster on a rotational drive. Also, if the OS and applications are stored on the solid state device, and your rotational device is used for file storage the speed difference between the two will likely be unnoticed in use. Although, rotating drives are going to be gone soon enough that even that won't matter anymore anyway.



Is RAID 0 faster than SSD?

For some time I have run four identical SATA drives in a RAID 0+1 configuration. These drives are only for storage; the OS and applications are on another drive. This configuration was recommended to me for handling large composited photo files and some video. I've wondered if SSD would be an improvement and it sounds like you would know.

Thanks
Edwin

[mike stenson]

Is RAID 0 faster than SSD?

For some time I have run four identical SATA drives in a RAID 0+1 configuration. These drives are only for storage; the OS and applications are on another drive. This configuration was recommended to me for handling large composited photo files and some video. I've wondered if SSD would be an improvement and it sounds like you would know.

Thanks
Edwin

RAID0 is a data striping method. The reason it's faster is you're throwing more spindles at it (that is, you have multiple drives doing the reading/writing instead of just one). In this case, you'd still see faster throughput for random reads/writes. Which is probably what is ultimately happening in the background. Doing a similar workload (writing NEF and large DMG/TIFF files to disk) my SSD is faster than the previous rotational. But, I'm not running a redundant array, since I'm storing backups in a cloud based solution. I would probably say that when you are looking at storage upgrades, it's time to go SSD.

Oh, and anymore.. every drive should be hardware encrypted. There's no cost difference really, and the security it provides really is a requirement IMO.

[Mark Hennebury]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I am concerned about the reason why they haven't offered to replace with an identical setup, with the original SSD.

Another point;
On the replacements options Dell have downgraded the Operating system from the original Windows 10 Pro Workstation edition to Window 10 Pro. Thats $140 loss in value and a performance drop.

Prices from Microsoft website
On my original machine; Windows 10 Pro for Workstations CAD $399.00

It’s the most powerful Windows yet, with faster data handling and storage, a new file system that finds and repairs faults, and support for the next generation of PC hardware, up to 4 CPUs and 6TB of memory. Best for advanced users and small businesses that want enhanced functionality with the ability to compute intensive workloads.



Offered on the replacement
Windows 10 Pro CAD $259.99



What is my best option?
Ask them to try and fix my original system again?
Take one of the replacement offers?
Ask for another replacement option?
Take them to court?
Has anyone had any luck trying to get a refund from Dell?
My experience so far has not left me with much confidence in either their products or service.

[Alan Rutherford]

...Dell sent in a technician to replaced the motherboard, SSD, memory, heat sink and new Operating system. Still wont start. After a load of emails and a few weeks they have finally agreed to replace it. With "like or better parts" And it should only take another month to arrive.... I'm a bit of a Neanderthal in the computer world. My first home-built had 8" floppy drives, used CP/M (pre-pre-pre-Windows) and pre-dated PC's. I gave up Windows for Linux years ago and don't miss it. I'm looking forward to being all solid state someday, but don't really need it. So I won't offer an opinion about the specs allthough it all sounds fairly decent. And my experience with Dell computers has been good and I have a few. However:

I don't know how you replace the operating system (Windows in this case) on a computer that won't start. Maybe what needs to be replaced is the technician.

It's not like you're ordering a custom car. Why should it take a month? Are you really dealing with Dell directly? If it must take that long and assuming someone is willing to accept some responsibility and actually help you, they should be able set you up on a loaner and switch you over when the new system arrives, but it sounds strange to me.

[Tom M King]

You probably have to go into the BIOS, to get it to recognize that monitor, but you can't do anything with the BIOS if you can't see anything on the screen. It probably needs to be started with another monitor. But then, there's the problem of not being able to upgrade the BIOS on Dell computers, unless maybe you get them to do it. Just too many bumps in their road.

[Kev Williams]

I have a question- Since Mark has stated the original computer never started, how can he notice any difference between the original and the replacement-? ;)

[Chuck Wintle]

I have a question- Since Mark has stated the original computer never started, how can he notice any difference between the original and the replacement-? ;)
Good question! Maybe Dell can take it back and refund the money? And as a few have mentioned maybe you can buy the parts and assemble your one yourself. Dell don't make it easy sometimes with their proprietary equipment. As for installing Windows its simple...just place the dvd in the drive and start the machine.

[Tom M King]

If you decide to start from scratch, Newegg has everything you need, and EVGA makes top notch stuff. I had mostly always used ASUS motherboards, but my last build was EVGA, and the difference in quality was astounding.

[Curt Harms]

Many, if not most, of the newer low profile laptops have the SSD integrated on the motherboard. Some can still be swapped out, but it's more complicated than sliding the drive out the side like the older laptops.

So don't buy one of those :)

[Grant Wilkinson]

While there has been a lot of discussion on ssd vs platter, I wonder about a laptop without wireless network connectivity. I don't believe that I have seen even a semi-modern laptop without built in wifi. Am I reading the specs wrong? If not, are you content, OP, with having to plug this into a wired network all the time?

[Curt Harms]

While there has been a lot of discussion on ssd vs platter, I wonder about a laptop without wireless network connectivity. I don't believe that I have seen even a semi-modern laptop without built in wifi. Am I reading the specs wrong? If not, are you content, OP, with having to plug this into a wired network all the time?

There's a new WiFi standard on the horizon, WPA3. It's still a work in progress but should fix WPA2s security issues. USB wifi can be easily upgraded, soldered-on wifi cannot.

[Mark Hennebury]

This is a Dell precision 3630 Desktop workstation.


While there has been a lot of discussion on ssd vs platter, I wonder about a laptop without wireless network connectivity. I don't believe that I have seen even a semi-modern laptop without built in wifi. Am I reading the specs wrong? If not, are you content, OP, with having to plug this into a wired network all the time?

[Mark Hennebury]

Yesterday, i tried restating the computer, and it came up with the black screen and the error " front fan Failure ..etc." as it did when the Dell tech was here.

So i took the side panel off and ....of course there is no front fan.
So i check around the motherboard and there is a socket for a front fan, So i am guessing that when they replaced the motherboard they put in a different one then what was originally in there.
So i put in a fan from another computer and restarted it, this time no black screen, no " Front fan error" it just went straight to blue screen and stop codes. I ran a scan and everything checked out fine including the new front fan. But still goes to blue screen and wont start. So i just removed the fan and will talk to Dell about a replacement.

[mike stenson]

There's a new WiFi standard on the horizon, WPA3. It's still a work in progress but should fix WPA2s security issues. USB wifi can be easily upgraded, soldered-on wifi cannot.

I'm not sure the new encryption method will require new hardware.

[Tom M King]

I sort of remember running into issues like this a decade and a half ago, when building a new computer, but the last several have been plug, screw, and play. There would be a jumper in the wrong position, typically.

There should be videos on Newegg about building a computer. It's really not difficult at all. Back then, you could get into BIOS before the OS of the computer booted. I don't know that you can even do that with current versions.

[Mark Hennebury]

Thanks Tom, So it may be the correct motherboard and just jumper in the wrong position.
Yes I am beginning to think that i should have just ordered the parts and put one together myself.



I sort of remember running into issues like this a decade and a half ago, when building a new computer, but the last several have been plug, screw, and play. There would be a jumper in the wrong position, typically.

There should be videos on Newegg about building a computer. It's really not difficult at all. Back then, you could get into BIOS before the OS of the computer booted. I don't know that you can even do that with current versions.

[Chuck Wintle]

Yesterday, i tried restating the computer, and it came up with the black screen and the error " front fan Failure ..etc." as it did when the Dell tech was here.

So i took the side panel off and ....of course there is no front fan.
So i check around the motherboard and there is a socket for a front fan, So i am guessing that when they replaced the motherboard they put in a different one then what was originally in there.
So i put in a fan from another computer and restarted it, this time no black screen, no " Front fan error" it just went straight to blue screen and stop codes. I ran a scan and everything checked out fine including the new front fan. But still goes to blue screen and wont start. So i just removed the fan and will talk to Dell about a replacement.
How is a scan possible when the computer will not start?

[mike stenson]

How is a scan possible when the computer will not start?

I suspect that this isn't an OS loaded scan. While I work entirely in a Unix environment (including the apple laptops we're provided), a blue screen and panic codes are a Windows thing. Often times hardware, but.. If you're loading a diagnostic utility, they generally will come up regardless.

[Chuck Wintle]

I sort of remember running into issues like this a decade and a half ago, when building a new computer, but the last several have been plug, screw, and play. There would be a jumper in the wrong position, typically.

There should be videos on Newegg about building a computer. It's really not difficult at all. Back then, you could get into BIOS before the OS of the computer booted. I don't know that you can even do that with current versions.

Jumpers are not really used anymore in my experience. And you can still go into the BIS as you describe.

[Chuck Wintle]

Thanks Tom, So it may be the correct motherboard and just jumper in the wrong position.
Yes I am beginning to think that i should have just ordered the parts and put one together myself.

Have you tried to use the generic driver for the video? I had this experience once and switching to a generic driver helped.

[Mark Hennebury]

Have you tried to use the generic driver for the video? I had this experience once and switching to a generic driver helped.

Chuck, no I haven't tried the generic driver. Although I just had to switch to the generic one on my old computer as the video card has given up on that one.

[Grant Wilkinson]

This is a Dell precision 3630 Desktop workstation.

Sorry, Mark. I should have read more closely.

[Derek Meyer]

If it blue screens immediately like that, then I would suspect the BIOS settings. Most Windows 10 machines now require a UEFI BIOS with SecureBoot enabled. If the BIOS does not have UEFI enabled, then the system will try to boot with a non-UEFI driver and will error. See if you can find the settings in your BIOS to enable UEFI support and/or SecureBoot.

Many of the newer desktop motherboards now come with one or two M.2 slots that can accept an SSD in the form of a small card with a connector on the short edge. These M.2 drives use the PCIe interface, so they have much more bandwidth available than the SATA interface, as much as 4 times more. This won't give you 4x the speed of a SATA SSD, but they can be significantly faster in some cases.

[Tom M King]

I haven't had to do anything to a computer after sticking the parts together for probably over a decade now, so I've forgotten how to do a lot of this stuff. How do you get into the BIOS, in a Windows 10 computer, before the OS boots? You used to be able to do it as the system booted, but I haven't seen a prompt in a Long time. Google wasn't much help to my curiosity.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Derek, I have tried that; both ways enabled and disabled, and tried booting rom a usb stick with a microsoft "fix" and tried two files downloaded from Dell. it would not boot. changed the boot order and disabled the secure boot, tried to "reset to last good" settings and restore factory settings etc. Tried the multiple on/off sequence to get to recover mode, nothing worked.
On the Canadian website a guy said that windows for workstations shouldn't even be on my computer. So i read up a little on "Windows 10 Pro for workstations" it appears he was correct. It is for high end workstations handling massive data files. So i went on to the Dell website and picked all of my components like i was going to purchase a computer like mine and as soon as i chose windows 10 Pro for workstaions and error popped up and said that it was not compatible with my processor that it required a Xeon processor. Interesting. So Dell have not offered it as an option on their two replacement options. It is $150- $200 extra for the workstation OS, but from what little i read it is of no use to me, so i am not going to push them for it.

I suggested that they should upgrade my video card to an Nvidia P2000 After some "negotiations" we have agreed that i will take option two with Nvidia Quadro P2000.

So i will be quite happy with that setup; I can add more memory or an M2. ssd PCIe card later if i feel the need.

Now its down to waiting to see if/when this deal gets done.



If it blue screens immediately like that, then I would suspect the BIOS settings. Most Windows 10 machines now require a UEFI BIOS with SecureBoot enabled. If the BIOS does not have UEFI enabled, then the system will try to boot with a non-UEFI driver and will error. See if you can find the settings in your BIOS to enable UEFI support and/or SecureBoot.

Many of the newer desktop motherboards now come with one or two M.2 slots that can accept an SSD in the form of a small card with a connector on the short edge. These M.2 drives use the PCIe interface, so they have much more bandwidth available than the SATA interface, as much as 4 times more. This won't give you 4x the speed of a SATA SSD, but they can be significantly faster in some cases.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Tom, I am still working on windows XP, so i am not exactly an expert on windows 10. haha.

When attempting to boot, when the Dell logo shows up, press F2 to get to the setup utility
F5 to run an onboard diagnostics.
repeat three times on/ off sequence is supposed to get you to the recover mode... didn't work for me.


I haven't had to do anything to a computer after sticking the parts together for probably over a decade now, so I've forgotten how to do a lot of this stuff. How do you get into the BIOS, in a Windows 10 computer, before the OS boots? You used to be able to do it as the system booted, but I haven't seen a prompt in a Long time. Google wasn't much help to my curiosity.

[Tom M King]

Yes, I remember how easy it was to enter BIOS at startup in OS versions before Windows 10. I haven't had to in years, so asked google for help with opening BIOS at startup with a Windows 10 computer. Looks like it's not as easy as it used to be. Some place wanted me to watch a video, but I didn't. The first thing one place said was that you could no longer get there simply by pressing F2.

A decade, or two ago, it used to require half a day of downloading this, or that, and changing jumpers, to get a computer to work after assembly. The last several went to work right away after putting them together, so I'm out of the loop on troubleshooting problems.