Expansion Into Garage ??

[Bob Winkler]

I'm in need of some opinions from you guys.

I currently have a basement workshop that limits the size of my projects and equipment. I am seriously considering spending the time and effort to install dedicated 220 circuits and improve storage so that bigger machines could be used in one bay of my 2-car attached garage. Specifically, I'm looking at a larger BS for resawing and a nice 15" or larger planer. I would keep my 14" BS and 12 1/2" planer in the basement for additional use.

My issues are these:
- Because I live in New England, the winters get pretty cold, even in a closed garage. Could the cold harm the machines?
- Is there a stability issue with resawing or planing wood stored in a cold environment, and then bringing them into the heat?

This would be a large dollar committment for me and I want to make sure I think this through. Any thoughts would be appreciated.:)

Thanks,

Bob

[Frank Pellow]

In the very early planning stage for my new shop, I was going to take over part of our garage. Of course, a new building happened instead. :)

But, when the garage was in my plans, I was going to put up a divider wall and insulate it as was as the exterior walls of the garge part. This should be quite easy to do, at least it was going to be easy in my case.

Bob, have you considered such a plan?

[Bob Winkler]

Frank, I thought about that, but I was worried about permanent changes that could effect resale if I ever retire and move. In other words, I would want to put the garage back to a garage.

I'll have to think about your idea some more. It would solve some problems. Thanks

Bob

[lou sansone]

hi bob

I guess I would try to bound the question as far as resale goes. Just how much do you think it would effect the final selling price? 1-2%. Could it be viewed as a hobby shop in one bay of the garage an maybe push the price in the positive direction?. How much joy to you get from the hobby and what is it worth to you? Folks who are into boating spend all types of money to rent slips for their boat. Think of it as a slip rental. Depending on the heat / furnace in the basement, you might be able to add a loop to the hwbb and heat that section as well. Most wives would love to get the dust and noise out of the house.

lou

[John Miliunas]

Bob, to follow up a bit on Frank's idea: Put up the divider stud wall with screws both, top and bottom (Tapcons for btm. sil plate). That way, if you move, you can simply disassemble it and just patch some small holes in the floor. If attached at the top, you would really need very few in the floor, mainly to stabilize it vertically.:) :cool:

[Bob Nazro]

Bob,
You can always tear down the dividing wall. The expense to put it up would not be that much. The machines can take what ever temp that you keep them at. The problem gets in rapid changes to the temp. If the shops cold and you just heat it up for a few cuts, condensation can become a problem. If you can keep the area somewhere around 50 to 55 degrees and bring it up to 60 to 65 to work in you shouldn't have a problem. Also you can set up a spray booth or paint area here. It's outside the house and can be easily vented outside the garage.

[Bob Winkler]

I was thinking about the same thing for the divider. It would be easy to make it so that it could be removed, if necessary. And it would be easy to add a zone to my HWBB. And....

Wow, what a slippery slope this is- a new load of lumber leads to new and larger equipment, which leads to a new garage renovation. Hope this doesn't lead to a new wife...

[Paul B. Cresti]

Bob,
In my old house I moved from the basement up to my 1 car garage. The funny thing is I started to think about the move because i wanted a bigger bandsaw, I went from a 14" to a 24", just a little bit of size increase. Anyway, we also needed more space in our cape as we had two children (now three).

Our garage was completely unfinished, all it had was rough framing and siding ... no insulation what-so-ever. What I did was pull power to the shop via a large junction box in the house, through a conduit (under the brezzeway) and into the shop. This way I avoided adding another panel (or even had the path to add one if I wanted to)and plus could always simply disconnect at the junction box and have no power in the garage again. I insulated and sheetrocked the whole garage and used two electric heaters to heat it during the winter. I would turn on the heaters about an hour ahead of time and they would provide enough heat and the insulation would keep it in there for my to be quite comfortable to work in there through the winter. If you look at the old Badger Pond shop tours you can find it there. Hey do you need help deciding what new machines to buy ;) I have a few ideas for you :)

[Charlie Plesums]

I know someone who fixed the seals around the garage door, insulated the ceiling (attic space) and was able to economically air condition the garage to office and drapery workshop standards (in Texas, that is a bigger deal than heating).

I really enjoy being able to use both parts of a two car garage when I am in the midst of a larger project. Despite a large combo machine, band saw, drum sander, radial arm saw, dust collector, drill press, lathe, and over 300 bf of lumber, I can still get one car into my two car garage with about 10 minutes of rearranging. I vote for no wall.

As a former yankee, who once had a heated garage, you may gain unbelieveable points for having a heated garage for a car, even if it isn't available 100% of the time because of sawdust.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi Bob,

I've been thinking of dividing my garage just like you. I haven't made the final decision
but if I go with a wall I will be sure to put a big door in the divider so I can move
out of the partitioned space if I wanted. One reason I've been thinking about a wall
is so I can aircondition 1/2 of a double car garage. I can't put an a/c through an
outside wall due to neighborhood constraints(anybody have an idea here?) If I could comoflauge it
somehow so nobody could see it then I would do it. But that's the advantage of
partitioning for me. I would put the a/c in the wall and vent it to the unconditioned
side of the garage. Good luck in whatever you do. Alan

[Bob Winkler]

I knew you guys would have some good ideas. As Charlie said, I could gain big points by sheetrocking, insulating, and adding a high ceiling to the entire garage. My wife has always wanted this, and it would be the perfect excuse to include a dual purpose workshop/garage. I could probably add loft wood storage as well.

My fear of the wall is that I lose floor space and the area might feel confined.
I'll have to give this serious thought:D.

Good thing I have time off for the Holidays.;)

And Alan, you could always install Central A/C:eek:. My UNICO system works great. I could probably even extend it into my new insulated garage;)

Bob

[Bob Winkler]

Bob,
I have a few ideas for you :)

Hey Paul, I am seriously looking at the MM16 BS. Which 15" or 20" planers should I be looking at?

Bob

[Travis Porter]

I agree with Bob, no wall. If the walls are finished, they probably aren't insulated so that would be something to consider and I would put in an insulated garage door. I had my shop for years in a 2 car garage (banned all cars), but it was a good space to work. Heating was a pain as my door was not insulated and it took a couple of hours to get the temp up with a kerosene heater and a fan to move the air, but it is definitely doable.

[Charlie Mastro]

Well this is my first post here and I thought I'd chime in as I am in the final stages of building my Shop/garage although it will never see a car inside in my lifetime. Now if I can just post this picture.
Just finished painting yesterday and looking at how I was going to trim out the inside. This was a pole builbing where all wall framing was horzonial on 2 ft centers so I wll have 1x5 pine covering all the drywall joints so I only had to mud the screw holes and not any of the long joints. I am really bad at mudding and taping. I will put all wiring in conduit and run it along these same trim pieces.
As to heating the shop, you can see the woodstove and it's been below zero here several times at night in the last month and it seldom gets below 35 inside after I've warmed it up during the day. You can see the difference the roof insulation makes from the outside photo. After getting one side of the roof done we had 4 inches of snow fall and it's all still there 3 weeks after it fell. The uninsulated side just melted of along with a lot of the heat inside.
I hope to finish next month with the trim and electrical and be open for business by late Jan.

Charlie

Just previewed the post and didn't see the photos. I hope this works....

[tod evans]

Hey Paul, I am seriously looking at the MM16 BS. Which 15" or 20" planers should I be looking at?

Bob
bob, have a gander at this; tod
http://www.minimax-usa.com/jointer-planer/formulasp1.html

[Jim Becker]

Use metal studs for a temporary divider wall...less expensive than wood studs and really easy to rip out if you need to. Just put in some wood at measured heights to provide "nailers" for hanging heavier shelving or cabinets if you plan on them.

The MM16 is a nice choice on the BS. If you want "just a planer" in the 15" -20" size, Grizzly, Bridgewood, etc, have nice entires in that size. Of coures, I'm a believer in having wide jointer capablity to match a planer, so you know what I'd recommend there! ;)

[Bob Winkler]

bob, have a gander at this; tod
http://www.minimax-usa.com/jointer-planer/formulasp1.html

Tod,

I've seen it- quit teasing me. That would be a quantum leap for me.

Bob

[Bob Winkler]

Jim, what's the difference between your MM FS350 and the current model FS35?

Bob

[Richard Niemiec]

Hi Bob,

.........I can't put an a/c through an
outside wall due to neighborhood constraints(anybody have an idea here?) If I could comoflauge it
somehow so nobody could see it then I would do it. ...... Alan

A buddy had the same problem with condo by-laws. He took a window AC unit, hung it from the rafters in the garage near the door, made some ductwork to surround the "exterior" vent of the AC unit, popped a window on the garage door and vented the ductwork through a dryer vent mounted in some sheet metal cut to fit the window. He used flexible duct for the window vent so he could disconnect to use the door.

[Bill Webber]

Alan,

I'm looking at using one of these because I don't want the look of a window air conditioner. They vent through the roof or wall, where ever you can put the vent. They also come in lots of heating and or air conditioning flavors.

http://www.store.yahoo.com/air-n-water/momapo90btu6.html

HTH,

Bill W.
Woodworkers visit me at:
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/wWebber/</pre>

[Donnie Raines]

My current shop is located in my basement. I store all of my project lumber in my shop for several days prior to useing. I have everything in my shop except for my planer...that is in my garage with a dust collector. The cold has never been an issue, nor has bringing the wood up from the shop into the garage to surface it(I cut the boards to the aprx size needed...makes it much easier and cleaner). I love the way it has worked out thus far.

[Andy Fox]

I'm in need of some opinions from you guys.
- Because I live in New England, the winters get pretty cold, even in a closed garage. Could the cold harm the machines?
- Is there a stability issue with resawing or planing wood stored in a cold environment, and then bringing them into the heat?


Bob,

I am just now moving from an attached two car garage to a basement, but will store most stock and sheets in the garage. I was too cold out in the garage! I was more worried about the cold harming me! :D

If you use an unvented kerosene/propane heater (like me) in the garage, it will act as a very efficient humidifier, rusting your iron and warping your wood. Paste wax didn't prevent the rusting, but an application of commercial proctectant every few weeks seemed to help. Moisture from vehicles and concrete and lack of ventilation can also make the garage more humid than the house. The temperature change of bringing wood into a warm house probably won't make a noticeable difference, but the humidity change might. I plan to keep a two shelf lumber rack in my basement to acclimate stock for a week before dimensioning it.

If you have a portable planer, do a controlled experiment by planing two 6" or wider pieces of wood, one in the basement, and one out in the garage. Bring the one planed in the garage inside after planing. Measure their dimensions and amount of warpage, twist, etc after 7 days. Use the most unstable species and grain pattern as you might for one of your projects. The amount of movement would probably vary on the amount of time spent in the garage.

My father-in-law works in industrial machinery manufacturing. He thinks being operated at cold temperatures can cause more wear on the motors. I assume this is from (1) closer tolerances on moving parts due to slight contraction of metal and (2) less efficient lubrication. I don't know how significant this is at typical winter temps of 30 degrees F.

[Bob Winkler]

Thanks for all the replies guys. This whole idea has got me thinking and rethinking if I want to do something "drastic." I pulled out Frank Pellow's CD about his workshop build, and starting looking at shed/barn/garage plans. All because last night my wife hit me with "why don't you forget the garage update, and just build the shop you always wanted."

So, I'm gonna take this slow, and try to figure out what would work best for me. If I had unlimited acreage, a detached shop would be a no brainer. But with my situation, I'm not sure how big of a shop I can fit, or what is "big enough."

Glad I have the holidays to ponder....;)

Bob

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan,

I'm looking at using one of these because I don't want the look of a window air conditioner. They vent through the roof or wall, where ever you can put the vent. They also come in lots of heating and or air conditioning flavors.

http://www.store.yahoo.com/air-n-water/momapo90btu6.html

HTH,

Bill W.
Woodworkers visit me at:
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/wWebber/</pre>


Thanks Bill, That's interesting as it would solve the problem. Now I'm wondering if they make them big enough to cool a 24x24 garage well insulated with no windows. I'm going to check on that. Thanks again.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

A buddy had the same problem with condo by-laws. He took a window AC unit, hung it from the rafters in the garage near the door, made some ductwork to surround the "exterior" vent of the AC unit, popped a window on the garage door and vented the ductwork through a dryer vent mounted in some sheet metal cut to fit the window. He used flexible duct for the window vent so he could disconnect to use the door.

Thanks Richard, I was thinking of something lilke that although I'm a little foggy on some of your friend's installation. I was thinking of trying to conceal the outside part of a regular window A/C unit. But knowing the way neighbors are I'd bet somebody would spot it and report it. That's unless I do a really good job of hiding it. :) Thanks again, I'm going to reread your post.

[Bob Johnson2]

[quote=Bob Winkler]I'm in need of some opinions from you guys.

My issues are these:
- Because I live in New England, the winters get pretty cold, even in a closed garage. Could the cold harm the machines?
- Is there a stability issue with resawing or planing wood stored in a cold environment, and then bringing them into the heat?


Back on your original questions before it turned into how big a dedicated shop to build...

The guy whos planer I used before I got one had his in the unheated garage, got to be for at least 15 years without any problems. For the amount of time your actually using it the temp is no big deal. Just don't figure on running a ton through it in the dead of winter.
Have never noticed any problems working with wood brought in from the cold.