Advice on European Style Sliding Table Saws

[Brian Bouril]

I'm looking toupgrade to a European style sliding table saw and have narrowed my search downto the Minimax SC2C and the Laguna P12|5. Both from a specification and featurestandpoint look great however the Laguna looks like it’s a bit nicer in termsof it's features, motor, and dust collection. Does anyone have experience witheither of these saws or would recommend another?

I should add, thespace I intend to put the saw in is one stall in a two car garage. I know it will betight if there is a car parked but I have no problem moving it for crosscutting wider panels or boards.

Minimax SC2C
https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/minimax-sc-2g.706

Laguna P12|5
https://lagunatools.com/industrial-machines/panelsaws-industrial-machines/p125-panelsaw/

[Mike King]

I know nothing about either of those saws, but the question for you is how much sheet good work will you do? And how often might you be ripping a board longer than 5 feet? Using a slider as a traditional cabinet saw is giving up its advantages. Personally, I’d be disappointed in a saw with only 5 feet of travel.

my own advice would be to look for a used slider with at least 8 feet of travel.

Mike

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I bought a Felder combo machine, slider, shaper, jointer, planer, 10 years ago or so, to fit in a double car garage shop. I still have and use it, it's a great machine. I wanted 8' stroke, and the only layout that made it happen was diagonally in the space. With that, it takes up the whole space pretty much. You will want 10' to the back, 10' to the front, and at least 8' to the sides for the carriage to process 4x8 sheets and give you a place to stand. I tried the mobile idea for a while and that doesn't work well on my machine as it weighs a LOT, and if I don't level it, the table moves on its own. Concrete is rarely flat.

I definitely don't regret the 8' saw, however lots of folks get by fine with smaller stroke, and there are ways to process 4x8 sheets on a 5' stroke saw. I would recommend against a full combo if you intend to do production work, but it is ok for a hobby shop.

I was using the Felder yesterday to build some cabinets in a shop that makes it seem puny, wishing I had a bigger machine, while using a Unisaw as an outfeed support. Times change.

Of the saws you listed, I'd probably the scm because of their better reputation, but I have no first hand knowledge of either.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have a short stroke machine because I view a tablesaw as a crosscut machine and I work with solid wood. Not to say a larger saw wouldn't be nice to have, but my shop is fairly small and space comes at a premium.

Your own work envelope should be what determines this. Outside of that I would chose minimax over Laguna. I have two MM machines and dealing with the service department has been good. One issue with my J/P was resolved rapidly.

[Mike Kees]

I owned an old Minimax Sc2 at one point. It was a great saw. This was the first European machine that I owned,it was a revelation to me.The overall quality,and the adjustability of everything was very good. This was the first true sliding saw I owned,I very quickly discovered that it was far better than the excalibur sliding table and Unisaw combination that it replaced. A true slider with the carriage right up to the blade is just an excellent way to work. I would buy the Minimax over the Laguna and the Sc2 is a great short stroke saw. I only sold mine to upgrade to a Felder K700s with a 10' slide. The short stroke sliders will still break down sheet goods,you just crosscut your sheets first.

[mark mcfarlane]

Minimax owner here. I don't know about the Laguna so won't recommend anything.

FWIW, I got an 8.5' slider and it is very fast and convenient to make glue-ready rips in long pieces of solid wood. Making glue-ready cuts on long boards was not something I thought about much before I bought the saw, yet a feature I use on almost every project. The long throw is not just for sheet goods.

I am lucky to have the space for an 8.5' slider.

I've also made 8' tall cabinets out of plywood and the long throw was helpful, but I could have made the same cuts with a track saw.

A thought: One could place a long throw slider in a shorter garage such that you always have full throw on the infeed side, and then just open the garage door when you need full throw on the outfeed side.

[Greg Parrish]

I think my Felder kf500 pro is 84” stroke which is an odd amount. Regardless I rarely rip full-size plywood as I usually have the store cut it some just to get it home. For solid wood I could see the benefit too but the rest of my shop is geared around material size of 5 or 6 feet max anyway so I usually break material down first. But I usually make smaller items I guess.

[Brian Bouril]

Thanks everyone for the great advice and guidance. I agree a larger unit would provide flexibility with the size of materials I'd work with and be the most future proof option. I'm afraid though my space will constrain the size I can have while also maintaining room for other functions and processes (processing stock, finishing, assembly, etc.). Mark, your idea to position the saw so that the outfeed could extend out of the garage door when needed is one I'll explore more. I had a similar idea but was thinking about it from the infeed of the saw. I've attached a couple renderings of the space and some of the floor standing tools I'll need to account for. The rough model of the sliding saw is based on the dimensions of the Minimax SC2C

Besides the size of the saw I was hoping to understand why people choose the Minimax over Laguna (or other manufacturers of similar size saws). I've seen conflicting experiences with Laguna and their customer service, some were bad and others great. Felder is out of my budget but would be something I consider in the future if/when I get a larger shop. The Minimax is on sale right now and from what I've read and researched is top quality. For a little more money though the Laguna comes with a few more features and larger motor.

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[Mike Kreinhop]

I wanted the Hammer K3 Winner for my basement shop, but didn't want to wait a long time for it to be made and then make my own arrangements for delivery and commissioning. I bought the MM SC2C because it was available immediately and was the largest MM saw that would fit down the stairs and through the doors.

I am happy with the SC2C, but if I did this again, I would wait for the Hammer. Space in my shop is limited, and the mobility kit on the Hammer would allow me to move it to the side when not needed. The SC2C does not have a mobility kit, at least that I know about, so wherever you park it, that is where it's staying.

[Jim Becker]

Minimax owner, albeit a larger saw. (S315WS) I'm extremely pleased with the tools and the company. I also appreciate that it uses "standard" tooling on the arbor.

[Mike King]

Brian, I have a Felder CF741 with a 8' travel. One advantage is that I can and do store the slider table on a movable cart, and the combination machine itself is on a mobility kit that allows me to roll it so that it occupies well less than one bay of my three bay shop (my spouse insists on calling it the garage, but that's another matter). it takes 5 minutes to park her car in her assigned parking spot (the driveway), roll the 3,000 pound machine into position, attach the slider table, and be ready to start processing material.

Would it be nice to have a permanently set up shop? Sure, but I don't find the current arrangement to be unworkable. Given your layout, a 8 or 10 foot slider, with a mobility kit and slider table cart, will definitely fit in your 1 stall "car configuration" shop. All you would need to be willing to do is to roll things around a bit to make it happen.

A slider is a big investment -- buy once, not twice with a tinge of regret.

Mike

[Patrick Walsh]

Get the MM and buy as much saw as you can afford and fit.

I’m sure I have a reputation around here that is it isn’t the “best” it’s crap.

But I’m gonna say this. It’s not just a name thing. It’s a build quality thing. It’s not a bigger is better thing it’s a the small and large details that relate to the machine being able to function as intended reliably and repeatable.

I just took a new job in a shop with a Laguna short stoke slider. It reinforces everything I have come to feel about anything not SCMI Altendorf Martin or old iron. Imop even the entry level stuff of the above is kinda crap. Bit nothing like this Laguna, it truly is a toy and imop a complete waste of money.

For instance the lock down for the rip fence to keep is square and or to set it to bevel is just a joke. Most sliders you will find people setup to cut square then don’t dare touch them.

This Laguna can’t hold a setting for more than like a half a cut. I honeslty can’t believe they even are able to sell some of the crap they sell. I think when people are buying at this level they just don’t know what they don’t know “yet” and if they did they would just swallow hard and spend more or accept they are out of their league and need to make due with a lesser tool like a table saw with a sled.

Honestly over most entry level sliders I’d much rather just have a nice cabinet saw a good sled and figure out other ways to deal with long cross cuts.

[Bradley Gray]

Honestly over most entry level sliders I’d much rather just have a nice cabinet saw a good sled and figure out other ways to deal with long cross cuts.

Like a fine old iron RAS that can be bought for little money.

[Patrick Walsh]

Like a fine old iron RAS that can be bought for little money.

Funny you should say that.

At my new job we have a filly nice old 5hp Rockwell. Well it sounds sweet and cuts real nice on one side of the blade. The fence is flat on the left and right side of the blade but I can only get square cuts off the left side. Makes zero sense and I’m sure I’ll figure it out sooner or later.

Anyway I have been told not to bevel or angle it as it was a pita to get to cut square on the one side it cuts square.

I feel like I have read over and over again that there are only truly a couple good RAS ever built for the exact reasons I stated above. If I’m wrong correct me as I kinda really like the machine to be perfectly honest. It is a huge space hog and i personally would much rather dedicate the footprint of a full size slider to a machine that can serve multiple tasks as apposed to one task.

Peoples minds regarding machines and tools I find is kinda a predetermined kinda thing. Generally I think woodworkers know what they like and don’t and often it just comes down to what they learnt on. Add to it generally I find woodworkers to be kinda persnickety set in there ways and fairly opinionated lol..

But man the hum of that Raz and the cut on the one good side of the blade is sweet vrs a dam miter saw.

[Mike Wilkins]

I have a Laguna Pro 6 foot slider, the predecessor to the 12/5. It has a 5 foot/60" sliding stroke. My shop dictated this choice, as an 8-footer would not leave much room for anything else. I have found no limitations to this size machine; if I do have to process plywood sheets, I have a track saw to break down large sheets. I rarely rip boards on the slider, but it can be easily done by locking the sliding wagon and moving the rip fence to the required width, mimicking the traditional cabinet saw. As expected, cross cuts are a breeze, especially when using the fence stop to get consistent lengths.
I must also add that I still have a traditional cabinet saw which is used mostly for rip cuts and joinery uses.

[Brian Holcombe]

Why is there a car in that garage? That's not the true intended purpose of a garage :D :D :D I convinced my wife into a car too large to reasonably fit in our garage....problem solved.

As someone quite happy with a short stroke slider I would continue along that route. It has not stopped me from making 9' long 54" wide tables in 10/4 material.

Mind you, I would make space for a jointer planer, these tools tend to multiple rapidly so don't plan too seriously around what's in the space currently.

[mark mcfarlane]

... Mark, your idea to position the saw so that the outfeed could extend out of the garage door when needed is one I'll explore more. I had a similar idea but was thinking about it from the infeed of the saw. ...

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Brian. My reason for having the infeed side of the slider at the back of the garage is that approach lets you keep the outrigger table mounted at the front of the slider and still have plenty of clearance on the infeed side, i.e. with the 8.5' slider pulled all the way to the infeed side you need ~10' of clearance in front of the blade arbor or you'll hit the wall/door/obstruction with the slider.

You can do it your way, which does offer more 'open space' by your car, but you may have to mount the outrigger in the middle of the slider if you want to keep the garage door closed. That essentially turns the longer slider into a short throw slider, with the ability to move the outrigger and get the full throw as needed. Its fairly easy to reposition the outrigger on my MM CU300 and it keeps the square crosscut setting.

I hope this makes sense. The key is, if you want to keep the outrigger at the outfeed end of an 8.5 slider, then you need ~10' of open space on the infeed side. Otherwise, you can move the outrigger as needed.

[Brian Bouril]

Thanks again all for your insights and experiences, this has really been helpful. I'm going to go with Minimax, just need to further research the difference between the models and decide on budget and size. I actually had a 2.5 car garage to myself in our last home and was able to establish that as my workshop but since then moved to a new home with a generous 2 car garage. Based on others advice I tried moving some things around with the sketchup model I created and I think at the very least the SC2C will fit at the back of the garage and still leave a lot of space for other tools.

This was my first time posting, thank you all for making it a great and helpful experience. Looking forward to talking with you all more in the future.

[Peter Kelly]

I bought that same SC2 a few years back and love mine. I'd recommend purchasing any accessories you think you might want along with the saw upfront as SCM will gouge you if you try to purchase after the fact. Check pages 34-35 of the MiniMax catalog (https://www.scmgroup.com/products/docs/rebranding/Minimax%20Generale/Minimax%20Gen._rev01_jan18_Ing.pdf) to see what I'm talking about.

[Doug Dawson]

Add to it generally I find woodworkers to be kinda persnickety set in there ways and fairly opinionated lol..

You said it not me! :^) I've had that opinion for such a long time.

[Patrick Walsh]

Their..

But yeah it’s pretty much a universal truth. Some way worse than others but we are all kinda special to be politically correct and polite about it..


You said it not me! :^) I've had that opinion for such a long time.

[Matthew Hills]

I'm looking toupgrade to a European style sliding table saw and have narrowed my search downto the Minimax SC2C and the Laguna P12|5.

You might like this video if you haven't seen it yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHGxGd9j0MI&feature=em-comments

Matt

[Brian Bouril]

I bought that same SC2 a few years back and love mine. I'd recommend purchasing any accessories you think you might want along with the saw upfront as SCM will gouge you if you try to purchase after the fact. Check pages 34-35 of the MiniMax catalog (https://www.scmgroup.com/products/docs/rebranding/Minimax%20Generale/Minimax%20Gen._rev01_jan18_Ing.pdf) to see what I'm talking about.

Peter, Thanks for the added advice - I had my eyes on the overhead dust collection as the one included looks fairly flimsy and possibly not all that effective. Any added thoughts you have on your saw as to what you'd get for accessories I'd appreciate it. Also, if you don't mind could you send me the general length and width of the machine? I had to sort of guess based on the measurements in the catalog from the drawing and measures they included but it seemed off.

[Brian Bouril]

Matthew, REALLY appreciate you linking this video. I've been on the search for more examples of others using the saws in their smaller workspaces. Going to check this video out and see if this gentlemen in the video has any others related to the saw.

[Mark e Kessler]

Brian,

Go to my Instagram page www.instagram.com/kessler_woodworks there are a few photos of how my shop fits in a slider and a 16" jointer. the slider is 110" with 49" rip.



Matthew, REALLY appreciate you linking this video. I've been on the search for more examples of others using the saws in their smaller workspaces. Going to check this video out and see if this gentlemen in the video has any others related to the saw.

[Peter Kelly]

Peter, Thanks for the added advice - I had my eyes on the overhead dust collection as the one included looks fairly flimsy and possibly not all that effective. Any added thoughts you have on your saw as to what you'd get for accessories I'd appreciate it. Also, if you don't mind could you send me the general length and width of the machine? I had to sort of guess based on the measurements in the catalog from the drawing and measures they included but it seemed off.https://i.imgur.com/SBtozEZ.png I'd get both of these: https://i.imgur.com/vACz56M.png

I'd also found that the small support table is handy but I keep the miter fence on the saw wagon most of the time as my shop is somewhat narrow. Some spare flip stops might also be useful. I've got the stock blade guard / riving knife / dust pickup and have been happy with it. The saw should also have some options regarding motor sizes, 1ph or 3ph, etc.

You may want to contact Sam Blasco and get his recommendations.

Sam Blasco
sam.blasco@scmgroup.com

Feel free to PM me if you'd like his mobile number.

[Brian Bouril]

Peter, thanks again for all this information - definitely will look into these features as well. Thank you for Sam's contact information, I'll reach out to him. It will be good to have a direct contact with a rep.

[Brian Bouril]

Hi Mark, your logic makes perfect sense and I completely agree. With the extra information I got with the dimensions of the saw I'll be able to use my model to see where it will work best to place the saw and if I can get that 8.5 capacity to fit. Thank you again for your insights, it's been really useful!

[Brian Bouril]

Mark, seeing this size saw in your space and the picture with your car next to it was really helpful to see it placed from that angle. All really useful, and brilliant idea to use cardboard cut to the size of the components of the saw to see how it fits into the space, might have to try that next just to really confirm what my plans are. You got my follow on instagram - and great work by the way!

Cardboard cutout model - https://www.instagram.com/p/B0a-kGDA_Qz/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[mark mcfarlane]

Brian, one more thing to think about as you lay out the shop is your typical project workflow and particularly material movement during a project. In a one car garage you may not have a lot of options and nothing is very far away, but it is worth briefly considering.

In my shop, all wood parks next to the garage door opening. Minimal load in. Wood moves clockwise through the shop until it makes the assembly bench, occasionally going back to a sander during dry fit. The flow works even better then I imagined, e.g. I can slide a vertically stacked 4*8 sheet of plywood out of storage, move it about 18" and then rotate an end down onto my outrigger. If I had put wood storage in a back corner it would be a PITA.

[Izzy Smith]

I have an older (1990) Minimax in my garage, and I love having it. I made a torsion box bench top to slide it under and protect it. On top of the bench I have my miter saw setup and a rack for the large attachments.

I would not be room for a separate jointer and planer without a combo machine.

[Rick Potter]

Got any pics Izzy?

[Brian Bouril]

In my shop, all wood parks next to the garage door opening. Minimal load in. Wood moves clockwise through the shop until it makes the assembly bench...

I plan to do the same in regards to storage and workflow/processing. My plan is to try and get material only when needed, and do any initial breakdown before it gets stored. That means sheet goods get broken down into rough sizes and hardwoods cut to rough lengths to then let get acclimated to the space for a few days. To your point efficiency can make or break the project, and you if not careful.