New Chisel Prep

[ken hatch]

I've started prepping the new chisels from Stan. I've never found a way to do it that didn't just take pulling up your big boy pants and take iron to stone and do the scut work. I wish there were an easier way, if there is I haven't found it. What this really got me to thinking about is the sharpening process and how to tell if a cutter is sharp.

We have endless posts on sharpening about what stones to use and what grits for grinding, honing, and polishing but not much on how to tell if a cutter is sharp other than what tests the poster uses to check the iron out. Maybe because there is no way to show how to feel sharp and even less to show how to see sharp we end up with sharpening posts that really do not address how to have sharp cutters. I think feeling sharp is easier to show someone than seeing sharp because you can A&B sharp edges vs. dull edges until the light goes on. There are so many factors with seeing that make it hard to show. I wish I could figure out a way to photograph sharp edges vs. ones that are not because even if someone is in your shop and you are trying to show them what to see you or at least I am not sure they are seeing the same thing I'm seeing.

BTW, I guess one of the things that started this line of thought was the first chisel I worked on had a wire edge that refused to go and even thought it felt sharp (the wire was very small) you could see it wasn't sharp.

Anyway just thoughts to go along with my cut and abraded fingers and thumb. You can take a lot of skin off before you know it is happening.

ken

[Tom M King]

I don't know how to teach it to someone else, but I don't test for sharpness. The feel of the tool on the stone tells me when it's done. I don't even feel for a burr, and don't worry about creating one. When it feels like it's slicing down into the surface of the stone (of course, it's really not), it's done on that stone. For cambered irons, you can tell by the swarf if it's cutting all the way across, in addition to the feel. That was the way my Dad taught me to sharpen a pocket knife, when I was about 9, and it still works.

That's the main reason I don't like diamond stones-there is no feel.

For my helpers, I have them count strokes. For something that I know might take 6 strokes for me, I tell them to take 10 strokes.

[ken hatch]

I don't know how to teach it to someone else, but I don't test for sharpness. The feel of the tool on the stone tells me when it's done. I don't even feel for a burr, and don't worry about creating one. When it feels like it's slicing down into the surface of the stone (of course, it's really not), it's done on that stone. For cambered irons, you can tell by the swarf if it's cutting all the way across, in addition to the feel. That was the way my Dad taught me to sharpen a pocket knife, when I was about 9, and it still works.

That's the main reason I don't like diamond stones-there is no feel.

For my helpers, I have them count strokes. For something that I know might take 6 strokes for me, I tell them to take 10 strokes.

Tom,

I do not test for sharpness either. In fact I'll bet the chisel that started this would have passed all the standard sharpness tests, it would have shaved arm hair or pared end grain with no problem.

ken

[Edwin Santos]

Do you have really good eyesight?
I once did, and now when I'm working on edges, searching for perfection, I have started keeping an inexpensive photographer's (or jeweler's) loupe with my stones and evaluating the edge from time to time while sharpening. There's a whole new world visible, particularly scratch pattern that you cannot feel, but with the loupe you can see.

Anyway, if you have eagle eyes you might not need it, but seeing as how you have some beautiful steel, you might find it interesting to zoom in for a closer look.

Please post photos of these chisels once you have them all prepped.
Edwin

[Robert Engel]

When its sharp, you'll know its sharp.

Says me, who has very little hair from the elbow down LOL

[Eric Rathhaus]

Hi Ken - You've touched on the source of my greatest frustration. I didn't grow up using tools of any kind and am alone in my shop trying to learn from books, the internet, and mistakes. Especially while sharpening, I often find myself wishing for a clear reference to know what sharp feels and looks like, It's the kind of knowledge that, I suspect, is most easily and efficiently gained face-to-face.

[Robert Engel]

a couple ways to check are the fingernail test and soft wood endgrain test.

but from experience, you'll know its sharp and won't have to test, as I facetiously said above.

[mike stenson]

Anyway just thoughts to go along with my cut and abraded fingers and thumb. You can take a lot of skin off before you know it is happening.


You sure can, I have bandaids currently that are making typing tough.

[chris carter]

I used to test on wood, but that was too slow most of the time so after stropping I now typically do the fingernail test. If it sticks, it's sharp. If it scares me that it wants to cut right through my fingernail, then it's very sharp.

[ken hatch]

Do you have really good eyesight?
I once did, and now when I'm working on edges, searching for perfection, I have started keeping an inexpensive photographer's (or jeweler's) loupe with my stones and evaluating the edge from time to time while sharpening. There's a whole new world visible, particularly scratch pattern that you cannot feel, but with the loupe you can see.

Anyway, if you have eagle eyes you might not need it, but seeing as how you have some beautiful steel, you might find it interesting to zoom in for a closer look.

Please post photos of these chisels once you have them all prepped.
Edwin

Edwin,

Good eye sight? It has been a few years. Up till recently, if working with direct sun light I didn't need a loupe. Today I use one every time and often. Photos will follow but it may be awhile, I can only stand so much at a time.

ken

[ken hatch]

Hi Ken - You've touched on the source of my greatest frustration. I didn't grow up using tools of any kind and am alone in my shop trying to learn from books, the internet, and mistakes. Especially while sharpening, I often find myself wishing for a clear reference to know what sharp feels and looks like, It's the kind of knowledge that, I suspect, is most easily and efficiently gained face-to-face.

Eric,

You haven't posted your location, I'll bet you can likely find a member close that would be happy to show you how to judge your cutters. While different from judging sharpness here is a link to the best video tutorial I've seen on free hand sharpening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Z5g-cyTVM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Z5g-cyTVM)

ken

P.S. I want to add, it is a Norton video with Joel from TFWW hosting and while it is a very good technique tutorial I disagree on the use of a secondary bevel.

[ken hatch]

a couple ways to check are the fingernail test and soft wood endgrain test.

but from experience, you'll know its sharp and won't have to test, as I facetiously said above.

Robert,

Yep, pretty much,

ken

[ken hatch]

You sure can, I have bandaids currently that are making typing tough.


Mike,

MsBubba is off visiting the kids, she is the bandaid dispenser it this house, so I'm walking around with a sore thumb wondering where she hides the bandages :). How is the rat battle going?

ken

[ken hatch]

I used to test on wood, but that was too slow most of the time so after stropping I now typically do the fingernail test. If it sticks, it's sharp. If it scares me that it wants to cut right through my fingernail, then it's very sharp.

Chris,

My laugh for the day, but ain't it the truth.

ken

[mike stenson]

Mike,

MsBubba is off visiting the kids, she is the bandaid dispenser it this house, so I'm walking around with a sore thumb wondering where she hides the bandages :). How is the rat battle going?

ken

Ken,

We still have first aid kits lying around from the last 5 years of marching band (and I know where they are ;) )! It's always the middle finger on my left hand for me. I'm down to one item left in the 'shed' (other than bicycles, but the rats don't seem to care about them.. and they're hanging anyway). Unfortunately it's the box they're living in it seems. I'm not really looking forward to moving it and having a family of rats fight back, so last night I helped a friend replace brakes on his truck. Seemed a more sane thing to do, while I contemplate chemical warfare. If you hear about someone on the NW side using chlorine gas, it's probably me.

While all of that is serious, I'm hoping to finish getting everything out of there this weekend and tear down that outer wall. That'll leave it without anywhere to hide, and I can start cleaning.

[ken hatch]

Ken,

We still have first aid kits lying around from the last 5 years of marching band (and I know where they are ;) )! It's always the middle finger on my left hand for me. I'm down to one item left in the 'shed' (other than bicycles, but the rats don't seem to care about them.. and they're hanging anyway). Unfortunately it's the box they're living in it seems. I'm not really looking forward to moving it and having a family of rats fight back, so last night I helped a friend replace brakes on his truck. Seemed a more sane thing to do, while I contemplate chemical warfare. If you hear about someone on the NW side using chlorine gas, it's probably me.

While all of that is serious, I'm hoping to finish getting everything out of there this weekend and tear down that outer wall. That'll leave it without anywhere to hide, and I can start cleaning.


Mike,

I have a few "live traps" and would be happy to loan you one. They work great with peanut butter dog treats as bait. Put the trap out until you stop catching rats, then rat proof. That is what Mr. Pack Rat does. Of course Mr. Pack Rat drowns the ones they catch, I take 'em a couple of miles out into the desert and turn 'em loose. Of course I expect the outcome for the rats is about the same for either way.

ken

[mike stenson]

Mike,

I have a few "live traps" and would be happy to loan you one. They work great with peanut butter dog treats as bait. Put the trap out until you stop catching rats, then rat proof. That is what Mr. Pack Rat does. Of course Mr. Pack Rat drowns the ones they catch, I take 'em a couple of miles out into the desert and turn 'em loose. Of course I expect the outcome for the rats is about the same for either way.

ken

I may take you up on that. I've got one, and I also killed the last one I caught (evidently I do not 'have a heart') I'll have problems though, until I get rid of these adobe piles.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vRHkLmB/0/d6934d90/L/i-vRHkLmB-L.jpg

[Phil Mueller]

There’s a video by Steve Latta, I think on the LN website, demonstrating how to sharpen the pointed cutting tool of his radius inlay tool. One thing that stuck with me that he said in the video is that light will not reflect from a sharp point....if you see light reflecting, it’s not sharp. I sort of follow this rule, but it just seems to me if it will do the task, it’s sharp.

I think after a while you get to know if you have to pound or push too hard it needs a honing.

However you get there, I must say, that sound of a paring chisel or smoothing plane taking off a few thousands of some wood, leaving a smooth finish with very little effort is pretty special.

[Derek Cohen]

I've started prepping the new chisels from Stan. I've never found a way to do it that didn't just take pulling up your big boy pants and take iron to stone and do the scut work. I wish there were an easier way, if there is I haven't found it. What this really got me to thinking about is the sharpening process and how to tell if a cutter is sharp ..........

ken

Ken, have you tried placing your chisels under a pyramid? Chanting is optional. :)

Yes, there are no short cuts. I don’t buy into “I just know when it’s sharp ... I can feel it in my waters”.

Experienced sharpeners recognise two factors: the first is that sharp requires that there is no light or roundedness at the very edge of the blade. A wire lets you know when the primary face has reached the back side. No sharp without this. To achieve this efficiently, always start the process with the coarsest stone. There is a balance to be achieved here: too coarse and you create deeper scratches which then require extra effort to remove.

The second factor is that you need to end the process with the smoothest possible surface. Smoother = sharper. As with grinding, ‘polishing’ is a compromise of cost/effort vs result. There is a point of diminishing returns. That is a personal decision.

When starting on the back of a new blade (other than a Veritas or LN), such as the Stan Chisels, I would run it over a finer media to see if there are high/low spots. Then I would choose the media coarseness to suit how much steel needs to be removed. Diamond plates are good here.

I would estimate that about 75% of the time is spent on the coarsest stone. Do not jump stones as you will wind up returning and re-doing the work.

How do I know when the blade is ready? Most importantly, I went through the complete routine, beginning with the most important stage, the first stage ... creating a wire edge. I always feel for this. Then I move on until all scratches cannot be seen, and through every media used feel for the wire. It should get smaller and smaller. Finally, a rub on green compound/hardwood to ensure that the wire is gone. Knowing that this has been done gives me the confidence that the edge is sharp.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[fritz eng]

IMHO, the most important first step is to make the back of the chisel absolute FLAT, just the first 3/4" or so

[ken hatch]

Ken, have you tried placing your chisels under a pyramid? Chanting is optional. :)

Yes, there are no short cuts. I don’t buy into “I just know when it’s sharp ... I can feel it in my waters”.

Experienced sharpeners recognise two factors: the first is that sharp requires that there is no light or roundedness at the very edge of the blade. A wire lets you know when the primary face has reached the back side. No sharp without this. To achieve this efficiently, always start the process with the coarsest stone. There is a balance to be achieved here: too coarse and you create deeper scratches which then require extra effort to remove.

The second factor is that you need to end the process with the smoothest possible surface. Smoother = sharper. As with grinding, ‘polishing’ is a compromise of cost/effort vs result. There is a point of diminishing returns. That is a personal decision.

When starting on the back of a new blade (other than a Veritas or LN), such as the Stan Chisels, I would run it over a finer media to see if there are high/low spots. Then I would choose the media coarseness to suit how much steel needs to be removed. Diamond plates are good here.

I would estimate that about 75% of the time is spent on the coarsest stone. Do not jump stones as you will wind up returning and re-doing the work.

How do I know when the blade is ready? Most importantly, I went through the complete routine, beginning with the most important stage, the first stage ... creating a wire edge. I always feel for this. Then I move on until all scratches cannot be seen, and through every media used feel for the wire. It should get smaller and smaller. Finally, a rub on green compound/hardwood to ensure that the wire is gone. Knowing that this has been done gives me the confidence that the edge is sharp.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I'll have to try the pyramid but I question the dancing neked part :p.

Our processes are essentially the same but one thing I know, if someone came up with a machine that would work I'd whip out my AmEX so fast it would leave burn marks.

BTW, good short and concise tutoral.

ken

[ken hatch]

There’s a video by Steve Latta, I think on the LN website, demonstrating how to sharpen the pointed cutting tool of his radius inlay tool. One thing that stuck with me that he said in the video is that light will not reflect from a sharp point....if you see light reflecting, it’s not sharp. I sort of follow this rule, but it just seems to me if it will do the task, it’s sharp.

I think after a while you get to know if you have to pound or push too hard it needs a honing.

However you get there, I must say, that sound of a paring chisel or smoothing plane taking off a few thousands of some wood, leaving a smooth finish with very little effort is pretty special.

Phil,

Yep, that is a good part of the see sharp.

ken

[ken hatch]

I may take you up on that. I've got one, and I also killed the last one I caught (evidently I do not 'have a heart') I'll have problems though, until I get rid of these adobe piles.



Mike,

Beautiful location, but damn, like my place Pack Rat Heaven. I just hope you don't run 'em out of the adobe and into the car.

The rats don't know it but we have reached a truce, if they stay below the pool, at the bottom of the gully, I'll leave 'em be. Come up to the back garden level they will be caught and sent packing.

ken

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

I'll have to try the pyramid but I question the dancing neked part :p.

Our processes are essentially the same but one thing I know, if someone came up with a machine that would work I'd whip out my AmEX so fast it would leave burn marks.

BTW, good short and concise tutoral.

ken

Ken, the naked dancing is the important bit! :)

I have not used one, but with machines in mind, I wonder how a Worksharp 3000 or Lee Valley Mk ll power Sharpening Syste (https://www.leevalley.com/en-gb/shop/tools/sharpening/power-systems/48435-veritas-mk-ii-power-sharpening-system)m, with a foot switch, would work?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

Ken, the naked dancing is the important bit! :)

I have not used one, but with machines in mind, I wonder how a Worksharp 3000 or Lee Valley Mk ll power Sharpening Syste (https://www.leevalley.com/en-gb/shop/tools/sharpening/power-systems/48435-veritas-mk-ii-power-sharpening-system)m, with a foot switch, would work?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I was afraid of that :p.

I tried a Worksharp several years ago to mixed results and gave it away to a friend along with a bunch of disks and all the accessories. Ir basically came down to something that works for the person that does not know how to sharpen well and is willing to limit their tools to ones that work with the machine. It has its place but not in my shop. I had hopes it would prep the backs of cutters but was way too easy to screw one up.

Waiting for my thumb to heal up enough to go back to chisel prep,

ken

[mike stenson]

When starting on the back of a new blade (other than a Veritas or LN), such as the Stan Chisels, I would run it over a finer media to see if there are high/low spots. Then I would choose the media coarseness to suit how much steel needs to be removed. Diamond plates are good here.


I had one (an Irwin branded 'Marples' 1 1/4") this weekend that I gave up on the diamond plate (200 grit) and went straight to a lapping plate and 80grit aluminum oxide. It's too bad I can't justify a surface grinder, I really dislike flattening the backs.

[Winston Chang]

I've found a couple of things to be educational:

* Looking at the edge with a 30x loupe.
* Testing by pushing the blade straight into the edge of a piece of printer paper. If I can do this perpendicular to the grain of the paper with no skewing of the blade and no slicing motion, I consider that really sharp. There are some gradations even with this test -- with a really, really sharp blade, it's noticeably easier to do this, but for most purposes, that level of sharpness isn't necessary. If the blade cuts across the paper grain with a bit of tearing, that's not quite as sharp. If it can only cleanly cut along the grain of the paper, that's also a lower level of sharpness. If you need to skew the blade or use a slicing motion, that's a lower level still.

The paper test has taught me some things. For example, stropping a few times on a plain leather strop provides a noticeable improvement. Since the time and effort of stropping is low, I do it. Another good thing about the paper test is that it's (somewhat) objective and easy to communicate -- you can easily explain it to someone else and they'll understand what to look for. Often people will say things like a blade is "shaving sharp," but that's very subjective. I don't claim that the paper test is a perfect proxy for real-world performance of a blade, but it's simple, and better than nothing.

After putting together what I've seen through the magnifier, the results I get from the paper test, and real-world performance of my tools, I find that I don't usually use the magnifier or paper test. Now when I sharpen my tools, I know what to look for in the blade edge without any extra aids. But those aids are still useful when dealing with a new-to-me blade.

[Bill Carey]

Ken, the naked dancing is the important bit! :)

I have not used one, but with machines in mind, I wonder how a Worksharp 3000 or Lee Valley Mk ll power Sharpening Syste (https://www.leevalley.com/en-gb/shop/tools/sharpening/power-systems/48435-veritas-mk-ii-power-sharpening-system)m, with a foot switch, would work?

Regards from Perth

Derek

An old compass plane, a 42 buck Caliastro #4, and a Worksharp 3000:
424269 424270 424271

When you reach a point where the tool is sharp enough to do the job well, what do you gain by continuing to sharpen? And I'm not being a smart ass, just curious what benefits are reaped by trying to sharpen something past the point where it readily accomplishes the task at hand.

[Winston Chang]

A few months ago when I was at my local Woodcraft, I mentioned what a pain it was to flatten the backs of some new chisels. The hand tool expert there said that they do it as a service for a very reasonable price, but I declined because I didn't want to make him do the tedious work. He also said that they were soon going to get a diamond wheel for their Tormek, which has a flat side that would make very quick work of the back prep. If I had new chisels that needed a lot of work, I'd definitely consider bringing them in.

YMMV, of course. I find that the people that work at this store, and this one guy in particular, are very knowledgeable, and I'd trust them to do a good job or tell me if they couldn't. I wouldn't trust just anyone with a Tormek to do it.

[mike stenson]

A few months ago when I was at my local Woodcraft, I mentioned what a pain it was to flatten the backs of some new chisels. The hand tool expert there said that they do it as a service for a very reasonable price, but I declined because I didn't want to make him do the tedious work. He also said that they were soon going to get a diamond wheel for their Tormek, which has a flat side that would make very quick work of the back prep. If I had new chisels that needed a lot of work, I'd definitely consider bringing them in.

YMMV, of course. I find that the people that work at this store, and this one guy in particular, are very knowledgeable, and I'd trust them to do a good job or tell me if they couldn't. I wouldn't trust just anyone with a Tormek to do it.

I find this really awkward on my Tormek, but I don't have a diamond wheel.. so I do not know how fast the action is with one.

[Doug Dawson]

A few months ago when I was at my local Woodcraft, I mentioned what a pain it was to flatten the backs of some new chisels. The hand tool expert there said that they do it as a service for a very reasonable price, but I declined because I didn't want to make him do the tedious work. He also said that they were soon going to get a diamond wheel for their Tormek, which has a flat side that would make very quick work of the back prep. If I had new chisels that needed a lot of work, I'd definitely consider bringing them in.

Even with a diamond wheel, wouldn't the Tormek tend to belly the back, because the ends are being cut faster than the middle (different circumferential speeds, by nature.) I suppose it depends on how you hold it, but this doesn't sound optimal.

[ken hatch]

Even with a diamond wheel, wouldn't the Tormek tend to belly the back, because the ends are being cut faster than the middle (different circumferential speeds, by nature.)

I bought a Tormek diamond wheel and the jig to use the side of the wheel thinking it might work to flatten the backs of cutters. Two problems, best I can tell the jig is designed to do a flat bevel and the wheel leaves a very rough surface. Even if you could set it to do the back the surface is so rough as to not be usable. I can't remember what grit wheel I have and I expect there are finer available but from my first tries it is not the answer. Of course someone willing to play with the jig more might figure out how to make it work with a finer grit wheel.

ken

[mike stenson]

I bought a Tormek diamond wheel and the jig to use the side of the wheel thinking it might work to flatten the backs of cutters. Two problems, best I can tell the jig is designed to do a flat bevel and the wheel leaves a very rough surface. Even if you could set it to do the back the surface is so rough as to not be usable. I can't remember what grit wheel I have and I expect there are finer available but from my first tries it is not the answer. Of course someone willing to play with the jig more might figure out how to make it work with a finer grit wheel.

ken


I forgot about that jig.

[Derek Cohen]

An old compass plane, a 42 buck Caliastro #4, and a Worksharp 3000:
424269 424270 424271

When you reach a point where the tool is sharp enough to do the job well, what do you gain by continuing to sharpen? And I'm not being a smart ass, just curious what benefits are reaped by trying to sharpen something past the point where it readily accomplishes the task at hand.

I don't buy into "sharpen enough for a task". I sharpen everything to the same level, which is 13000 grit waterstone, and then finish with green compound on hardwood to ensure the wire is gone. It does not take longer to hone to higher grits - most of the time is spent on the lower grits. The higher you go, the less work there is.

The thing is, when you work with hard woods, a dull chisel with not cut and simply skate across the surface. Or it will not penetrate deeply when you chop. When you use duller edges, it not only becomes dangerous, but you are more likely to make mistakes and produce poorer work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

I don't buy into "sharpen enough for a task". I sharpen everything to the same level, which is 13000 grit waterstone, and then finish with green compound on hardwood to ensure the wire is gone. It does not take longer to hone to higher grits - most of the time is spent on the lower grits. The higher you go, the less work there is.

The thing is, when you work with hard woods, a dull chisel with not cut and simply skate across the surface. Or it will not penetrate deeply when you chop. When you use duller edges, it not only becomes dangerous, but you are more likely to make mistakes and produce poorer work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I approach it from a slightly more "in the weeds" perspective. A sharp cutter, one where the two surfaces meet at an acute angle, will cut the same at first contact with wood no matter what the final grit. The difference is in how long it will stay sharp enough to cut and there are many factors at play including the final grit used but also the shape of the scratches and if they are ordered or random. The bottom line is, if you want a long lasting edge you do just what you do and take edge to the optimum smoothness.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]
When you reach a point where the tool is sharp enough to do the job well, what do you gain by continuing to sharpen? And I'm not being a smart ass, just curious what benefits are reaped by trying to sharpen something past the point where it readily accomplishes the task at hand.

As stated by Derek and Ken, the quality of work, safety and duration of the edge come into play.

With something like a scrub plane the sharpness may not matter as much, but a sharp blade is easier to push than one with an almost sharp blade.

In a smoother, a sharp as is possible blade will leave a much better surface than one that is 'sharp enough' to make shavings.

424273

The blade in this plane was very sharp with a nick or a dull spot that left a raised line on the work. Other than the raised line, the surface was smooth like glass.

With a jointer or a jack plane a fully sharpened blade may make the difference between following up with a smoother and not needing the attention of a smoother.

On a chisel or in a spokeshave the sharper blade is easier to control.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I'm afraid the point about shiny not being sharp can be misleading to some that don't quite get the point. A really sharp cutting edge can't reflect because it is so narrow that it would appear to have no width, and in turn, couldn't show a reflection. Whether or not the bevel, and back is reflective has little effect, one way, or the other, on whether the edge is sharp. If you hone to sub-micron level, whether on stones, or diamonds, the bevel, and back can be Very shiny, while a bevel sharpened with a JNAT may not be shiny, but can be equally as sharp.

Bill Carey, If you send me an iron, or chisel, I'll sharpen it as sharp as I can get it, and send it back to you. Then you can decide, in use, whether it's worth the extra 30 seconds of sharpening time, or not. I will do it my regular way, and not test it for sharpness, but send it right back to you. Then your comments would be appreciated, and we can learn from it, one way, or the other. When I'm in the middle of a planing project, which can involve all the siding on a house, my sharpening for the iron when it needs honing, starts at 6k, and is usually only done after lunch break, or first thing in the morning. Others stop there, or even earlier, but that's my typical starting point when I feel like it could stand a little help.

To repeat, in contrast to Derek's insult, I don't test for sharpness. There is a video on here somewhere that shows me taking a chisel that had been used for scraping paint off of bricks, to being really sharp, in a few minutes with stones alone, including talking, fumbling with the camera, and showing how I flatten stones. At the end of the video, realizing that I should actually show that it was sharp, I shaved a large patch of hair off my arm. That being one of the first videos I did, I only thought about, while doing it, that most do test the edge right before I turned the camera off, and that I should show it. You could notice that I went from one stone to the next with no testing, or hesitation. As expected on a sharpening thread, there were rude, chest thumping comments in that thread. I know I need to make a better one with my sharpening sink. That one was set up in the basement kitchen sink of a museum house I was working on, which probably looked pretty confusing.

I'll try to make a better video this Spring, and post it. Busy with other stuff than woodworking for a while now.

[Bill Carey]

I don't buy into "sharpen enough for a task". I sharpen everything to the same level, which is 13000 grit waterstone, and then finish with green compound on hardwood to ensure the wire is gone. It does not take longer to hone to higher grits - most of the time is spent on the lower grits. The higher you go, the less work there is.

The thing is, when you work with hard woods, a dull chisel with not cut and simply skate across the surface. Or it will not penetrate deeply when you chop. When you use duller edges, it not only becomes dangerous, but you are more likely to make mistakes and produce poorer work.

Regards from Perth

Derek


was answering your question - but perhaps it was rhetorical - about the WS3000. I take my sharpening to 8000 on a diamond plate and then green compound. But thanks for the tip about dull chisels.

[Bill Carey]

I'm afraid the point about shiny not being sharp can be misleading to some that don't quite get the point. A really sharp cutting edge can't reflect because it is so narrow that it would appear to have no width, and in turn, couldn't show a reflection. Whether or not the bevel, and back is reflective has little effect, one way, or the other, on whether the edge is sharp. If you hone to sub-micron level, whether on stones, or diamonds, the bevel, and back can be Very shiny, while a bevel sharpened with a JNAT may not be shiny, but can be equally as sharp.

Bill Carey, If you send me an iron, or chisel, I'll sharpen it as sharp as I can get it, and send it back to you. Then you can decide, in use, whether it's worth the extra 30 seconds of sharpening time, or not. I will do it my regular way, and not test it for sharpness, but send it right back to you. Then your comments would be appreciated, and we can learn from it, one way, or the other. When I'm in the middle of a planing project, which can involve all the siding on a house, my sharpening for the iron when it needs honing, starts at 6k, and is usually only done after lunch break, or first thing in the morning. Others stop there, or even earlier, but that's my typical starting point when I feel like it could stand a little help.

To repeat, in contrast to Derek's insult, I don't test for sharpness. There is a video on here somewhere that shows me taking a chisel that had been used for scraping paint off of bricks, to being really sharp, in a few minutes with stones alone, including talking, fumbling with the camera, and showing how I flatten stones. At the end of the video, realizing that I should actually show that it was sharp, I shaved a large patch of hair off my arm. That being one of the first videos I did, I only thought about, while doing it, that most do test the edge right before I turned the camera off, and that I should show it. You could notice that I went from one stone to the next with no testing, or hesitation. As expected on a sharpening thread, there were rude, chest thumping comments in that thread. I know I need to make a better one with my sharpening sink. That one was set up in the basement kitchen sink of a museum house I was working on, which probably looked pretty confusing.

I'll try to make a better video this Spring, and post it. Busy with other stuff than woodworking for a while now.


Thanks Tom - perhaps I'll learn what lies beyond what I normally sharpen to, and answer the original question I asked. PM when you get a chance with your address and I'll send you an iron. Much appreciated.

[Tom M King]

PM responded to with address. email HistoricHousePreservation@gmail.com

I think it will be better than just talking about it.

[Derek Cohen]

To repeat, in contrast to Derek's insult, I don't test for sharpness.

Tom, I really did not aim my comment at you, or anyone. My apology if you thought I did.

There appear to be two schools of thought: one side that says sharpen just enough for a task, and the other that says sharpen all you can. The first group has proponents such as Paul Sellers, who once made a video of sharpening his plane iron to 1000 grit, and calling it good because he could make shavings. He was working. straight grained pine. I do not recall his mentioning the quality of the finish. I belong to the second group, for the reasons I noted in my earlier reply, and especially because a duller edge will not work well on hard woods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Anuj Prateek]

Derek,

I was afraid of that :p.

I tried a Worksharp several years ago to mixed results and gave it away to a friend along with a bunch of disks and all the accessories. Ir basically came down to something that works for the person that does not know how to sharpen well and is willing to limit their tools to ones that work with the machine. It has its place but not in my shop. I had hopes it would prep the backs of cutters but was way too easy to screw one up.

Waiting for my thumb to heal up enough to go back to chisel prep,

ken

Sharing my experience with worksharp and what works so far for me.

Back flattening:

I use sandpaper on granite. 80 grit to 1000 grit based on how much material needs to be removed (starting point is 400). Then I switch to water stones.

Bevel:

< 2": I use worksharp up to 3k disk. Then I hand sharpen on 5k and 12k shapton. Maybe a minute or two on each, followed by green compound. Worksharp excels at establishing or changing the bevel angle.

> 2": I use a honing guide. I start with coarse sandpaper on granite and go up to 1000 grit paper, followed by DMT extra fine. If I have some higher grit paper at hand then I use it and skip DMT. Then I hand sharpen using water stones and green compound. One day I will make a platform for worksharp and will probably stop using sandpaper on granite for establishing bevel.

Problem with worksharp (for me):

Chisel port came with 400 grit paper. It used to scratch the polished/flattened back of chisels. So, switched it to 3k sandpaper (and never changed it). I remove burr on 5k/12k stones.

Regular use:

After initial sharpening, I touch up on 12k stone and sometimes on 5k. The more I delay sharpening the more effort and time it takes to sharpen. Now a days on slightest hint of dullness I take a few swipes on green compound or 12k stone. In case of nicks, I am back to sandpaper or Worksharp.


To me sharp is when I can vertically slice copier paper with light push. I have tried shaving arm hairs and its sharp enough to do so at this point. I find shaving test a little scary so I avoid it.

[Bill Carey]

..... Bill Carey, If you send me an iron, or chisel, I'll sharpen it as sharp as I can get it, and send it back to you. Then you can decide, in use, whether it's worth the extra 30 seconds of sharpening time, or not. I will do it my regular way, and not test it for sharpness, but send it right back to you. Then your comments would be appreciated, and we can learn from it, one way, or the other ...........

I got the iron back - thanks Tom. And it is sharper than I usually get it on the WS3000, that I'll readily admit. I get .0015 shavings with the WS3000, and I got .0010 with the iron you sent back to me. So yes, I could have sharper tools. And I could be better at handling a plane as well. But in terms of my #4 doing what I want it to do, and being able to turn around from the bench, turn on the WS3000 and have it back to the best I can get it to, and then be back at work on the bench - I'll take it. Working on stones - particularly water stones - has never held any allure for me. I find it a PITA. I can smooth a piece of walnut or QSWO just fine with the WS3000, and if I had you sharpen them they would definitely be sharper, but would I see an appreciable difference in the work I do? Maybe a subtle one, but it just isn't worth the time and effort for me to use stones and push past what I now get.

I look forward to a vid on you sharpen - email me when you post it if you would, so I don't miss it.

Thanks.

[Gareth Richmond]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki8tt-VjwqI

when in doubt ask paul sellers

[bill epstein]

Just because I sharpened my 7 chisels and 3 plane blades this afternoon, I'll chime in.

Finding the bevel (I threw away my Lee Valley Mark One guide years ago) is the same as looking for light under a straight edge. You need to get down in the weeds with a good light behind the bevel and your hand already positioned to hold what you see. Before long you'll be able to feel that the bevel is flat on the stone.

With my King Water Stones, 600 and 8000, I can also see if the sludge is coming up over the flat uniformly. After 10 or 15 or 100 passes then you may wipe off the chisel or blade and see what's what. Prior to knowing by feel where you are, which may take a lot of sharpening, being dissatisfied and going back at it guarantees a second or third bevel so... get good at it. Really though, if after the first go and seeing the sludge coming up over the flat more or less uniformly, you will have a bevel you can go on to hone. So rub the flat just 3 or 4 times on the 600 or medium or 400 grit or whatever to remove the wire and move on to the honing. No more than 10 passes on my 8000 makes that one MM. at the edge wonderfully shiny in the same angle to light as let's you see if there's issues on a work piece. 3 or 4 more passes with the handle raised just enough you think for certain the stone will be gouged but isn't, give you the micro-bevel. Remove the wire as above. Keep your hands, feet, and small children away from the edge. As noted in a reply above, if it stops on your thumbnail, it's sharp. If it mortises your thumbnail. it's damn sharp.

This is only for a new piece or after using the chisel on masonry. Once sharp, only the 8000 is necessary.