combo or separates

[Chris Fite]

It seems to me that there must be some way to choose whether to collect separate machines or have a combination tool, such as: Hammer, Robland, or Rojek.

Space being what it is, unchangeable, that is: 24 x 28.

I want to add a jointer, at least 8 inches; a shaper; and replace my 12 inch lunchbox planer with a heavier duty model. These all take added space and will run $3000 or so. I have a Delta 10 inch tilting abor saw with 52 inch Unifence with a 5 foot table in front, a SCMS, DP. I used to have a Bosch 1611 router for a router table, but it walked away a couple of weeks ago.

When I stand in the shop and envision the space these will take up, a combo tool starts to become appealing. Even at that, choosing among the combos seems even less clear.

The more I read, the less clear it becomes. Any gems of wisdom you might care to share?

[Paul B. Cresti]

Chris,
A lot depends on what you are willing to spend and what kind of machines you are after. The machines you mentioned are all comparable in quality. The next level of machines like, MiniMax, are more expensive but provide a much higher quality. The initial cost of a European combo machine may seem really high but in order to get that same quality and capacity machine in separates, it would cost much more. A full 5 function combo (saw, shaper, jointer, planer, mortiser) offers a whole shop in a much smaller footprint and thus work for people with small spaces. There are also saw/shaper and J/P (some with mortiser also) combos that can still provide the combo space & money savings but in a more separate like approach.

I would say first take a broad look at all the machines to get a feel for how much they cost, what they can do, what each has to offer and then decide where you want to be. If you need my "unbiased" opinion ;) I would be more than welcome to help out :D

[Mike Wilkins]

After looking around at the various offerings, consider the option of seperate combo machines (jointer/planer and saw/shaper). In my 16 X 24 shop, I made lots more space by getting rid of a 6" jointer & 12" Parks planer in favor of a 12" jointer/planer. Instant space.
Now I am in the saving/planning/wishing stages of getting a saw/shaper combo w/slider to replace a Unisaw & shaper.
Space saving is one of the biggest advantages of combo machines, as well as the added quality and power of most of these machines. Our woodworking friends across the Atlantic really has this space proble figured out.
Good luck and watch those fingers.

[tod evans]

chris, the european machines are in a whole `nother league above the import stuff. take a couple weekends and go drive folks machines, most people who own this class of machinery will be more than willing to let you go for a spin and buy you a cuppa to boot. remember you`re talking about a chunk of change so take your time and research only spend once....heck if you want to come to the sticks you can drive my seperates and i`ll buy lunch..02 tod

[Chris Barton]

Hi Chris,

I have a Robland X31 and it has all of the functions you desire plus more. The X31 is a 12" jointer & planer, tilting arbor sliding table taw, shaper, and morticer all in one. I have had mine for about 2 months now and I have been absolutely amazed by the quality of the machine and the precision of the various features. For my needs, the X31 seems to be a very nearly perfect fit. And, as other have said, the quality, fit and finish of a european machine is usually "light-years" better than more commonly used western style gear.

Now, there is some downside to the combos and that is transition time. This can largely be avoided if you plan you work and take the pieces through the different functions in a logical manner; joint, plane, dimention, mortice, shape. On the other hand, a combo machine is ultimately less expensive than a collection of individual machines and usually more powerful, better made, and more precise.

[Jim Becker]

"How you like to work" is what you need to answer. For me, a TS/shaper and a J/P/M is a more workable solution than a full 5-function combo, both because of how my shop space is constrained by a stairway and because I tend to bounce between the jointer and the TS "a lot". While you can do that relatively easily with the full combo, it's even easier with the system sliced down the middle. Pauls shop is also set up that way (although with a separate shaper) and it makes for an efficient work envronment.

BTW, the transition time between jointer and planer on my MM FS350 J/P is about a minute and a half...no big deal and it actually can be a good thing in that it makes you pause and hopefully think about what you are going to be doing! Chris's similar point is good...when you plan out what you are going to do and in what order, you easily jump over transition times since you minimize them.

[John Renzetti]

Ditto on what my friend Jim Becker said. I started out with the saw/shaper and jointer/planer combo. You get a bit more versatility with relatively little more needed space.
As for changeover time on the J/P it is really negligible and like Jim says it gives you time to pause and think of what you need to do.
There is a learning curve with these things and there needs to be a change in the thought process on how things are done and sequenced. But once you get used to it, you'll be fine. With that said though you really need to get some hands on experience with a combo to see if this is the type of machine for you. Take your time, you are already looking at some decent machines that come with a good relative price point. As you can see here on SMC there are owners of all the machines you are looking at. After trying them and deciding you want one, buy the make that works for you in your price range.
I'd be leery of making a trip to Arkansas to visit Tod. I've seen him with that "Arkansas Toothpick" he carries. :)
take care,
John

[lou sansone]

I personally like separates. I think the big motivator is space savings and maybe some cost savings, but I am not sure about that, for combo machines. I have tried to keep an open mind about all of this. I have played around with combo machines and did not like the feel of them. Like Tod says... you need to try to pay a visit to some folks and see how you like them. A lot of folks seem to think that all of Europe is fixated on combo machines, but Europe makes lots of separates as well and often in the more sophisticate line as opposed to the serious hobby line of machines.

Lou

[Steve Stube]

I don't understand why nobody is offering a machine like my combo anymore, at least to my knowledge.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/ceethese/Posted%20photos/CKMwoodworker.jpg

New in 1981 or 82, it is a very nice unit, portable and NO change over time involved. It has a couple of limitations, only 8" wide jointer and 8" X 8" thickness planer, no blade tilt (only the fence tilts to the zero clarence insert) and dust pickup was really not addressed at all on my model. It has some real pluses that sort of offset the limitations (I think) like as I said portability (grab the two handles and wheel it where you wish - with the jointer wings folded up it goes thru standard doorways), 16" blade capacity, 12" sliding chopsaw feature, one motor operates everything (although the saw/morticing can be easily separated from the jointer/planer operations with the flip of a lever and tightening of another knob, or vice versa), and convenient miter stops. I had the separate machines but was so taken by this machine I snatched up the floor model and took it home. The dealer sold smaller models of a similar type but this was the only one this size he ever sold. I inquire from time to time on forums like this one to see if anyone else may have purchased the same size machine. Has anyone ever seen one before?

[Bill Grumbine]

Chris, my shop space is very similar to yours at 20' x 30'. I was really getting cramped with my stand alone machines when I decided to go with a Mini Max CU 300 Smart. It gives me more room in the shop for moving things around, and it also allowed me to cram one more lathe into the shop for a total of three now.

One of the big detractions leveled at combo machines is the changeover time between one function and another, but I have found that I spend less time doing that than I did clearing all the stuff off other machines or clearing stuff out of the way so I could use them when I have single purpose machines. Combos aren't for everyone, but then nothing else is either. It is a very good idea, as has already been mentioned, to spend some time fooling around with one before putting down your money.

Bill

[Frank Pellow]

I don't understand why nobody is offering a machine like my combo anymore, at least to my knowledge.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/ceethese/Posted%20photos/CKMwoodworker.jpg

New in 1981 or 82, it is a very nice unit, portable and NO change over time involved. It has a couple of limitations, only 8" wide jointer and 8" X 8" thickness planer, no blade tilt (only the fence tilts to the zero clarence insert) and dust pickup was really not addressed at all on my model. It has some real pluses that sort of offset the limitations (I think) like as I said portability (grab the two handles and wheel it where you wish - with the jointer wings folded up it goes thru standard doorways), 16" blade capacity, 12" sliding chopsaw feature, one motor operates everything (although the saw/morticing can be easily separated from the jointer/planer operations with the flip of a lever and tightening of another knob, or vice versa), and convenient miter stops. I had the separate machines but was so taken by this machine I snatched up the floor model and took it home. The dealer sold smaller models of a similar type but this was the only one this size he ever sold. I inquire from time to time on forums like this one to see if anyone else may have purchased the same size machine. Has anyone ever seen one before?
That's an interesting machine Steve. I never heard of it but, from an historiacal perspecive, I would like to learn more about it.

[tod evans]

ckm is another taiwan manufacturer who to the best of my knowledge is still in business. i think sunhill? offers their pushfeed moulders. so information should still be available on steves machine.....02 tod
whoops i mistakenly entered the wrong initials earlier post edited..
http://sunhillmachinery.com/Moulders%20M462.htm

[Steve Stube]

Frank, the only other information I have is this spec sheet in the link below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/ceethese/Posted%20photos/CKMdescription.jpg

I did have a couple more pages with it but they were lost in a flood in 1989 so what is contained in these two links is all I was able to save for this machine. And as I think I said I have searched the web trying to find any hint of another CKM Woodworker machine - I struck out.

Sorry but it necessary to place your mouse over the jpg image at the link and then click on the box that pops up (lower right side) to enlarge it for viewing/reading.

[Michael Perata]

Combos aren't for everyone, but then nothing else is either. It is a very good idea, as has already been mentioned, to spend some time fooling around with one before putting down your money.
I have a MiniMax CU300S like Bill, but after using the machine for 2+ years, I wish I had MiniMax Jointer/Planer & Saw/Shaper separates.

[Bob Yedinak]

Chris, I have a good friend who purchased a combo machine, made in Italy a couple of years ago, and has since become handicapped to a point were can't do any more woodworking-his machine is available at a very good price. It has 3-3hp motors, a table saw, 12 inch jointer and planer, horizontal boring and a shaper. I don't think the unit has been used more that 10 or 12 hours. If you are interested, Email me, and I can put you in contact with him.
Bob(I would buy it myself if I had the room)

[markus shaffer]

Chris,

I have a saw/shaper and jointer/planer. My shop size is a little bit smaller than yours. I didn't like the feel of the whole combo machine and am happy that I purchased separate machines.. As has been said above... You really need to see these machines and test them in person to really get a feel of what they are and how they would work for you.

The setup time for the jointer/planer is minimal and with experience one learns to work around changeover pretty quickly. I personally can't say the same for the shaper. Time there varies depending on the cutterhead setup. Hefting the shaper fence around isn't the end of the world, but I wouldn't want to do it multiple times everyday. And if in the middle of a job you need to set it up for one or two cuts and then go back to the saw, it can be a pain. However, for the cost, you're not going to find a shaper of the same quality in a standalone machine for the price of adding it to a sliding saw. I think the cost difference for me to add the shaper into my saw was around $2000 or $2500. I don't think there is a shaper in production today that is the quality of a Felder with a price tag that low. At some point, if I end up with more space, I'll look into buying a separate shaper but if space is at a premium for you, look into the combo.

In the end, the cost of these machines is pretty substantial regardless of whether you're a hobbyist or professional. Look into all the options out there and take a serious amount of time considering how you work and what makes the most sense for you and your space. The only universal piece of advice I can say regarding sliding saws is to get the absolute biggest you have the space for. Mine has a rip capacity of 8 feet. Wish I had gotten the 9 or 10 foot version.

Good luck.


-Markus

[Gary Curtis]

And then there is the Katy combo machine from France. I've heard about them for a few years, and then yesterday, I saw one - used and for sale. 5 functions. Maybe somebody here can elaborate. Don't know who markets them or how one could get support.

Contact me at extiger@comcast.net and I'll provide a name and phone number, should you be interested. I can't imagine this thing would sell for more than $2K.

Gary Curtis