Looking For Tool Input

[Mike Hollis]

So I haven’t turned since wood shop in junior high, but I bought my first lathe today. I mainly want to get in to bowl turning, so I purchased a Laguna 18-36 as I believe in “buy once, cry once.”

I am wondering if the Sorby 8-tool kit at Woodcraft is worth the money, or is there a better way to go? What else do I need besides face shield/respirator?

Thanks.

[John K Jordan]

Hi Mike. The Sorby tools are good and that set looks good but it has some tools you might not use IF you want to stick to bowl turning. (To be candid, I'm a strong believer in learning to spindle turn first, then go to bowls/platters/hollow forms and such. This is not my idea but a strong suggestion from a number of expert and professional turners and authors: spindle turning will teach you the fine tool control that will let you turn anything.)

One way to start is slowly. (Another way is to buy one of everything!) Something often recommended is to find and attend some meetings at a local turning club. There are usually generous people you might meet who would be willing to mentor, discuss alternatives, and even possibly loan some basic tools to help you get started. (I keep a box of old tools just for that) Taking a class is also a good way to get started. You also might put your approximate location in your profile - someone here may even live close.

There is a nearly unlimited number of tool options. Besides the health/safety protection, a few basic things that will help to the point of being almost necessary:

A good scroll chuck
Oneway wolverine with varigrind jig for sharpening gouges and such

As a woodworker you may already have calipers and such and a bench grinder for sharpening. A CBN wheel is the cat's meow for sharpening lathe tools.

Hey, it sounds like you nicely avoided something many of us did, that is buy a cheap junky lathe then replace it a short time later!

JKJ

[Mike Hollis]

Thanks for the tips John. I am signed up to take a turning class at my local Woodcraft so I can learn as much as I can.

[William C Rogers]

I bought the HF (Windsor Design) red handle set of tools to learn on. The red handle set is suppose to be better than the whit handle set. All I know is they cost $10 more than the white handle set. There are those that will advise against a set and say buy quality individual tools. Each has its merits. I learned to turn spindles and how to sharpen with that set. Sorby is no doubt a better class of tools, but like John said there will be those in the set you will not use. Once I got comfortable with sharpening and turning I started buying premium individual tools. The HF set does not have a bowl gouge. I make my own tool handles and buy Thompson and Dway tools.

[John K Jordan]

I bought the HF (Windsor Design) red handle set of tools to learn on. The red handle set is suppose to be better than the whit handle set. All I know is they cost $10 more than the white handle set. There are those that will advise against a set and say buy quality individual tools. Each has its merits. I learned to turn spindles and how to sharpen with that set. Sorby is no doubt a better class of tools, but like John said there will be those in the set you will not use. Once I got comfortable with sharpening and turning I started buying premium individual tools. The HF set does not have a bowl gouge. I make my own tool handles and buy Thompson and Dway tools.

I forgot to mention that I also started with a cheap set of HSS tools from Sears, also without a bowl gouge. As I learned to sharpen I shortened these tools instead of expensive, high quality tools. From then on I did as you mentioned and bought individual high quality tools.

I haven't tried Dway but I hear they are good. I mostly use Thompson - they have better steel than the Sorby tools bought years ago. I buy them without handles and make handles with inserts so one handle fits many tools.

One think to watch out for with very cheap tools - sometimes the steel is not hardened properly or only hardened for an inch or so at the tip. Once you grind through that the tool is not very useful. I test the hardness using the file method of all cheap and old used tools I accumulate.

JKJ

[Eric Danstrom]

Clearly OP has means, in his position I'd buy that nice Sorby set. I started with a lower cost Freud set back in the eighties and all of the chisel styles remain relevant three decades later.

Next it's time for OP to start thinking about how he's going to sharpen.....

[Richard Coers]

I'm no fan of tool sets. You'll end up using about 3 of the 8. Call Thompson Tools and talk to them about what you want to do. They'll send you some to get started and you'll have a far superior tool.

[Mike Hollis]

Thanks for all the input folks, I really appreciate it. What do you all recommend for a grinder? Not looking to spend the money for a Tormek, as much as I’d like to.

[tom lucas]

Sorby tools are good, and a good place to start. Thompson and Carter and Son are better.

[Mike Hollis]

So after doing a bunch of reading, I ended up ordering the following from D-Way:

1/2” bowl gouge
1/2 x 3/4 roughing gouge
3/8” spindle gouge
3/4” skew

And a 1” bowl scraper from Carter & Son.

That should be a decent start, anything else I should get?

[Timothy Thorpe Allen]

You are going to need at least one handle....

[Mike Hollis]

You are going to need at least one handle....

I ordered a couple handles.

[Eric Danstrom]

That should be a decent start, anything else I should get?
Parting tool.

[Eric Danstrom]

Thanks for all the input folks, I really appreciate it. What do you all recommend for a grinder? Not looking to spend the money for a Tormek, as much as I’d like to.
I went with the Rikon 8" slow speed grinder on a Harbor Freight cast iron stand. Added Veritas guides. After I wear down the Rikon grinding wheels I'll upgrade to CBN wheels. Tired of throwing away perfectly good stuff for esoteric upgrades.

[Thomas Wilson80]

So after doing a bunch of reading, I ended up ordering the following from D-Way:

1/2” bowl gouge
1/2 x 3/4 roughing gouge
3/8” spindle gouge
3/4” skew

And a 1” bowl scraper from Carter & Son.

That should be a decent start, anything else I should get?

That should be plenty - I started with a 1/2 bowl gouge and a thin parting tool, then a few months later added 1/2 and 1 1/4 skews then a year later added a 1/2 spindle gouge and a scraper. You can use the skews in place of spindle roughing gouge, though I recently added one and love it.
Sounds like you are set for now. Good luck and congrats!

Tom

[Timothy Thorpe Allen]

Highland Hardware has the Rikon 8" slow speed grinder on sale, I don't know for how much longer. The Oneway Wolverine Jig with the Varigrind is pretty standard...

And yes, you need a parting tool...

[Reed Gray]

As for a grinder, I think the 1/2 hp Rikon is under powered. The 1 hp model has plenty of power for what ever kind of wheels you put on it. It also goes on sale. It isn't a Baldor, but for the price, still a good tool.

For tools, D Way, and Thompson are my go to tools. I started off with a set of tools from Craft Supplies, and used maybe half of them. I think you need 2 bowl gouges, one a 40/40 grind and one of the BOB (bottom of bowl) tools, about 70 degree grind. At least one NRS (negative rake scraper), couple of chucks... And the list goes on, and on, and on....

robo hippy



robo hippy

[Eric Danstrom]

As for a grinder, I think the 1/2 hp Rikon is under powered. The 1 hp model has plenty of power for what ever kind of wheels you put on it. It also goes on sale. It isn't a Baldor, but for the price, still a good tool.
Did you purchase the 1/2 hp Rikon and you found it lacking? Then you upgraded to the 1hp? Just curious what your experience was.

[Reed Gray]

I did not even consider the 1/2 hp Rikon. I did have one of the old blue 'no name' grinders that Woodcraft sold years ago. It took a while to get up to speed with standard wheels. I prefer to have tools that are overbuilt rather than underbuilt. That comes from years of doing concrete construction, and I made sure my forms would not blow up.... I tend to abuse my tools as well, and want them to hold up. As a production turner, I didn't want to have to wait for the grinder to come up to speed, turn it on, sharpen, then turn it off. The Baldor draws some thing like 4.5 amps, and the Rikon draws 7. About the same amount of power for both in terms of getting the wheels up to speed and how much pressure I can apply to the tool and wheel without bogging the grinder down. Yes, I know, just sharpen, don't grind, but some times when I need to shape a bit. then more pressure helps....

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

I think the 1/2 hp Rikon is OK for some situations.

I have a number of grinders including both the 1/2 hp and 1 hp Rikons. I find the 1/2 horse Rikon works well with the AlOx wheels. Some say it is way underpowered (slow to start) with two steel CBN wheels to the point they may have to kick start it by hand.

I don't know about that since all my CBN wheels are lighter-weight aluminum, but my 1/2 horse is fine with an 80 grit CBN wheel on one side and a buffing wheel on the other. (At the right end in the photo).

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I do all of my heavy shaping of negative rake scrapers and such with the 80 grit CBN on the 1/2 horse and it doesn't bog down even shaping wide Thompson 10V scraper stock. Maybe I'm not overly aggressive with it, I don't know.

I haven't tried two aluminum CBN wheels on the 1/2 horse. I gave a 320 grit aluminum CBN wheel to someone with a 1/2 hp Rikon and they use it on one side and an AlOx wheel on the other for all their sharpening.

One small annoyance with both Rikons is the castings are not the best, it's almost like they are twisted a bit. Neither will sit flat on a surface without grinding a bit on the bottom or bolting down quite firmly onto a plywood base. Another one is the 1 hp came with the most worthless grinder light I've ever seen - I can't even direct the light at the wheel. Rikon said "oh, sorry".

My best grinder is a Metabo in my weld shop - plenty of power for even heavy use of a wire brush on mild steel which can really challenge a grinder. Someday, though, I would like to get a big Baldor (with VFD variable speed!).

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

MY first Rikon 1 hp grinder, when I took the rubber feet off, I had to grind down 1/16 inch on two of the cast feet to get it to sit flat without rocking. My second one, a couple of years later, it sat dead flat. They may be getting better.

I have one 1000 grit aluminum wheel from Ken Rizza. The rest are the steel D Way. I do know the aluminum and poly wheels are more light weight, and they would be much better on the 1/2 hp Rikon. I wouldn't even consider putting the steel wheels on the 1/2 hp. I do keep a wire wheel on my Baldor. Great for cleaning off gunk from sticky sap type turning. Madrone is really bad about that.

robo hippy

[Jeffrey J Smith]

Been using the 1/2 horse no name Woodcraft grinder with D-Way steel wheels for 7 or 8 years with no complaints or problems. All I use it for is sharpening and light shaping and it works fine. Does it start a little slow? Oh yeah, but it gets the job done. Startup may add 10 seconds or so, but what's the rush. I find that the older I get the more important it is to slow things down a little and get it right the first time.
I am in t he market for another grinder to have AO wheels on, may just get the same one...

[John K Jordan]

...
I am in the market for another grinder to have AO wheels on, may just get the same one...


I've had the no-name for over 15 years and use it now with two aluminum CBN wheels. The label on mine says 3/4 HP maximum but with the amperage of only 4.5, so I'm assuming they lie about the HP rating.

I thought Woodcraft quit selling the no-name grinder long ago. Is it available now?

[Jeffrey J Smith]

I thought Woodcraft quit selling the no-name grinder long ago. Is it available now?
They did when the quality control slipped on the no-name version. They now sell the Rikon 1/2 hp low speed grinder...

[Don R Davis]

I have the Rikon 8" slow speed grinder with an 80 & a 180 grit CBN wheels. I also have the Wolverine Jig which will make keeping your tools sharp easy.

[Mike Hollis]

So if the Rikon 1/2 HP isn’t so great, what does everyone recommend for a grinder? Does it need to be a slow speed version?

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it.

[Don R Davis]

I have the Rikon 1/2 HP grinder and it does fine. It's just takes a little longer for it to reach full speed.

[Timothy Thorpe Allen]

So if the Rikon 1/2 HP isn’t so great, what does everyone recommend for a grinder? Does it need to be a slow speed version?

Well, the Rikon 1 HP slow-speed grinder is the recommended alternative....

Does it need to be slow speed? Not necessarily, for high-speed steels (most turning tools these days). The advantage of the slow speed grinder is that it removes metal from your tool more slowly, giving you a better chance to make corrections before screwing up your grind. For other tool steels (hand plane blades, chisels, etc...) the slow speed is better because it reduces the risk of "burning" (and thus ruining) your edge.

I have a 6" slow speed grinder with a 1/3 hp rating and it works fine.

[Mike Hollis]

So if I go with the Tormek 8” grinder, will the Wolverine and Varigrind jig work with it?

[Mike Goetzke]

So if I go with the Tormek 8” grinder, will the Wolverine and Varigrind jig work with it?

Speaking from experience (or inexperience) I started with a used Tormek that I got a super deal on but still needed another grinder to shape the tools. It takes forever to remove material on the Tormek. Good thing about Tormek is lack of dust but think you will get better use from a 1HP Rikon with two different grit CBN wheels.

[John K Jordan]

So if I go with the Tormek 8” grinder, will the Wolverine and Varigrind jig work with it?

You might be able to mount the Oneway stuff on a Tormek but it would be some work.
It is fairly simple to go the other way and mount the Tormek jigs on a bench grinder. I bought the pieces and mounted them on a wood block next to the grinder. (They have a kit for this now.) I can use either the Wolverine or the Tormek rests and jigs.

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The Tormek with a stock water wheel is great for putting a very fine edge on a turning tool. I used one for years. There are two downsides and one big limitation. One, it takes a little while to set up each time since you have to keep adding water in the reservoir and until it's saturated. Two, the wheel wears away and must be trued and eventually replaced. The edge it leaves is excellent but has this limitation: it's very slow to remove metal because the grit is fine and wheel turns so slowly - great for sharping a tool that is already shaped to suit but terrible for reshaping. I never want to reshape or even sharpen another large skew chisel on it.

I hesitate to make specific recommendations since what I turn and my methods may be different from some. I almost always turn dry woods and I like to turn very hard woods so I want most tools sharpened and honed/stropped with a razor edge. I don't turn green wood often.

I currently have two Tormeks and several 1/2 speed bench grinders.
On grinders:
- an 80 grit CBN: good for reshaping and heavy grinding, use it occasionally
- a 220 grit CBN: hardly ever use it, might take it off the grinder
- a 600 grit CBN: I use it a lot
On Tormeks
- a 600 grit CBN: loaned it to a friend who is getting started
- a 1200 grit CBN: I use it a lot


I first tried using the 600 grit CBN wheel on a Tormek. It's used without the water bath. It did not leave a fine enough edge to suit me on my spindle gouges. I replaced it with the 1200 grit CBN wheel. My spindle gouges are happy with it. However, it would be worthless for significantly reshaping a tool.

For reshaping tools there is nothing like an 80 grit CBN wheel on a bench grinder. Removes material easily and never needs to be trued like an AlOx wheel. But lots of people are happy with a coarse AlOx wheel for reshaping tools.

For sharpening skews, scrapers, and some bowl gouges I'm happy with a 600 grit CBN wheel on a bench grinder. I first tried a 320 grit CBN and it didn't leave a fine enough edge for me on the skews.

The 220 grit CBN too coarse for me in general but might be OK for bowl gouges for green wood, scrapers, and such. However, lots of people are happy with the either the 220 or 320 grit CBN wheels for general use. If you have just one CBN wheel you might be happy with one of those and use coarse AlOx wheel on the other side. If you can spring for two CBN wheels the 80 grit would be my pick.

JKJ

[ChrisA Edwards]

Talking of sharpening, thoughts on this one


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y1FJnh0pKg

[John K Jordan]

Talking of sharpening, thoughts on this one [Sorby ProEdge]


Doesn't that give you a flat bevel? I've gotten used to having a concave bevel which is easy to hone with a small flat extra-fine diamond hone when the edge starts to get dull - takes about 3 seconds. Is that hard to do by hand on a flat bevel?

JKJ

[ChrisA Edwards]

Doesn't that give you a flat bevel? I've gotten used to having a concave bevel which is easy to hone with a small flat extra-fine diamond hone when the edge starts to get dull - takes about 3 seconds. Is that hard to do by hand on a flat bevel?

JKJ

So here's a rookie question, should Ibe honing bowl gauges after grinding?

[John K Jordan]

So here's a rookie question, should Ibe honing bowl gauges after grinding?

That is your choice. Some do and some don't. For some cases I don't think it matters much - the grinding burr will be taken off in a few seconds a the tool is used. You may not even notice the difference between honing and not when, for example, roughing out bowls from green wood. If you look at the edge under a microscope, though, you can see that when the wire edge breaks off the edge is somewhat ragged.

On the other hand, when working with hard, dry woods I like to remove the grinding burr. A smoother edge will make a smoother cut. You can actually see the scratches from the burr on some cuts on hard, fine-grained wood. A smoother edge will arguably stay sharp longer. Take a look at the polished edges on carving gouges and chip carving knives.

I almost always remove the burr immediately after grinding. I use leather wheels on a Tormek loaded with polishing compound - one is flat and others are profiled to get into the inside of . I sometimes strop on flat leather. For skew chisels, I strop on a hard, flat surfaces with polishing compound. What I found works best for me is to resaw a piece of MDF into thin pieces and rub a stick of polishing compound on the rough surface. I hold the skew with the bevel hard against the surface then push down and draw the tool back while lifting the back ever so slightly.

When a tool begins to get dull in use I will usually strop again several times before I resharpen. For gouges it is easiest to use an extra fine "paddle" diamond hone and held carefully against the bevel while moving the hone around the bevel. I push on the front of the paddle with my forefinger to keep it from tilting and give an even stroke. My favorite little diamond hones are the EzeLap; I use the blue extra-fine for this. For inside the flute on gouges I use a round diamond hone (or go back to the Tormek)

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For me, having the edge as sharp as possible is key to fine control and smooth surfaces. Note that much depends on what you turn. I often like to turn small things from hard woods. This little finger top made from dogwood and the holly finial, for examples, needed no sanding. (I did sand the ebony finial with 600 and 800 paper)

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I'd say try it yourself - if you have two gouges with the same grind try some cuts with the tool right off the grinder and compare to a honed and polished edge.

BTW, I also hone off the grinding burrs from scrapers and negative rake scrapers and use a burnishing tool to raise a burr. This lasts a LOT longer than the grinder burr and gives more control since the burnished burr can be made delicate or aggressive to suit. A burnished burr is the method used for ages to prepare cabinet scrapers. I make and use curved hand scrapers to smooth turnings.

JKJ