Old Rusty Tools

[Mike Burke]

These have been in our shop for a loooong time. The planes have Baily on them. The clamps have nothing on them.
Are the plans worth restoring ? I've seen some Youtube videos that have done a pretty good job of restoring old planes. Guess it would be kind of fun to do if its worth it.
I did just a little searching on the clamps. Looks like Carpenters Bar clamp ? There are 6 of them. I don't have the lever to turn them but could make one pretty easy I think.
Any advise on what to do with these ? Thanks
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[Jim Koepke]

If you are going to use them, they are worth getting into working shape.

Here is the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs (archive) > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805

There is a lot of restoration posts including this one of mine > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373

That should help you out.

jtk

[Stew Denton]

Mike,

+1 on what Jim said. If you could take a few more photos on the planes we could help you more. It would help us identify the planes better, but they appear old enough to be good models of Stanley Bailey planes. Take photos of the toe and front knob area, the area back of the frog in front of the tote which shows the pat. dates and adjustment set ups, the lever cap, take the irons assembly off and take a photo of the top of the frog, and finally take a photo of the area behind the tote which also shows the dates sometimes.

That said, they all appear to be Stanley Bailey planes from the time frame when Stanley made really good Bailey planes. Like Jim said, these should be great users, and a welcome addition to a Neanders shop once restored.

With regard to the clamps, you might take a photo of complete clamp. I am not familiar with what I can see of the clamps. In general, however, the old saying is "you can never have too many clamps."

Regards,

Stew

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If you are near another member, somebody may be able to help you get them into working order.

[Doug Dawson]

These have been in our shop for a loooong time. The planes have Baily on them. The clamps have nothing on them.
Are the plans worth restoring ? I've seen some Youtube videos that have done a pretty good job of restoring old planes. Guess it would be kind of fun to do if its worth it.
I did just a little searching on the clamps. Looks like Carpenters Bar clamp ? There are 6 of them. I don't have the lever to turn them but could make one pretty easy I think.
Any advise on what to do with these ? Thanks


There's not much you have to do to an old plane to get it working right, if it worked right before. Bad rust pitting around the front of the mouth could be an issue, but it doesn't look like you have that, from the pictures. A dip in EvapoRust on the wood-contacting extremities could be helpful, better than sanding it off. If the screws work right, that's okay. Even rust on the blade is okay, you can always replace the blade with a new one (or replace it with a recent-production blade from LeeValley or Lie-Nielson or Hock, maybe you might have to file the mouth to fit it, which might take care of minor rust pitting on the original mouth opening.) I'd say, do minimal cleanup and give it a go, after a sharpening. "Restoring" is for people who like shiny (nothing against that personally.)

No opinion on the clamps. They still make those.

[lowell holmes]

Old rusty planes sand paper and coat with Johnson Wax. You can repair Japanning with automotive black paint.

[Doug Dawson]

Old rusty planes sand paper and coat with Johnson Wax. You can repair Japanning with automotive black paint.

I like EvapoRust followed by brake cleaner to wipe off the residue followed by wax, but yeah you can use sandpaper as a first step, if the surface isn't complicated. For somebody working with a lot of rusty stuff, a 5 gallon bucket of EvapoRust is truly a beautiful thing to have around, and goes a looooong ways.

[Jim Koepke]

Old rusty planes sand paper and coat with Johnson Wax. You can repair Japanning with automotive black paint.


I like EvapoRust followed by brake cleaner to wipe off the residue followed by wax, but yeah you can use sandpaper as a first step, if the surface isn't complicated.

Many years ago a lot of planes passed through my shop. Now not many come through. If someone is doing tool rehab in quantity, their set up is going to be different than one who is only doing a few planes per year.

Keep it as simple as can be. Use what is at hand.

Some like strong vinegar or other forms of acetic acid. Are photo supplies still available? Acetic acid is used for a stop solution. Wine makers use it for cleaning glass or some other use. A few ounces of powder to mix up for a de-rusting bath was a few bucks. Search the internet for mixing strength and instructions.

Someone on SMC uses an inexpensive lemonade powder to mix up an acid bath, read the label.

jtk

[mike stenson]

Photo chemicals are still available, but citric acid is cheaper from a brewing supply place than a photo supply place. Works very, very well. Just leaves metal grey.

[Jim Koepke]

Photo chemicals are still available, but citric acid is cheaper from a brewing supply place than a photo supply place. Works very, very well. Just leaves metal grey.

Mike, my error, it likely was citric acid for my last de-rusting bath instead of acetic acid.

My last acetic acid from a photo supplier was about 45 years ago. It would be enough for a whole heck of a lot of de-rusting baths.

jtk

[mike stenson]

Mike, my error, it likely was citric acid for my last de-rusting bath instead of acetic acid.

My last acetic acid from a photo supplier was about 45 years ago. It would be enough for a whole heck of a lot of de-rusting baths.

jtk

Both will work. :) Both for rust removal and as a stop bath (citric acid works far better with amidol developer as I recall)

[Doug Dawson]

Mike, my error, it likely was citric acid for my last de-rusting bath instead of acetic acid.

My last acetic acid from a photo supplier was about 45 years ago. It would be enough for a whole heck of a lot of de-rusting baths.


The thing I like about EvapoRust, as opposed to sandpaper or even dilute acids, is that it doesn't get rid of the patina, it only gets rid of the rust. You can leave a rusty chisel in a bath of it for a whole week, and it will emerge only with a confused look, otherwise intact (but of course with no rust.)

[steven c newman]

They ONLY time I have ever soaked anything when doing a rehab of a plane....is PBBlaster to loosen stubborn bolts.

I have a selection of Brass wire wheels, for both the grinder, and the drillpress, including "cup" brushes to get into hard to reach spots.

If you be afraid of getting your hands dirty, wear gloves....

At 4 hours per plane..I could have all three up and running in less than a weekend

Broken handle? Wrap the bolt in tape, add 2-part epoxy to the break, install the handle back on the plane, using that bolt as the clamp.

[Doug Dawson]

They ONLY time I have ever soaked anything when doing a rehab of a plane....is PBBlaster to loosen stubborn bolts.

I have a selection of Brass wire wheels, for both the grinder, and the drillpress, including "cup" brushes to get into hard to reach spots.

You're not concerned about patina at all? Even brass wire wheels will make shiny. Plus it's more work.

[steven c newman]

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And...what are you doing, during all that soak time?
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Hardest "work" I do, is to clean me up, when done..
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This #8 is about as "shiny" as they get...YMMV.....

[Doug Dawson]

And...what are you doing, during all that soak time?

It doesn't take long to dismantle a tool, toss it in the basket, wipe it off after 20 minutes, and put it back together. I'd rather read SMC than wire-brush my tools. The devil's hands, and all that. :^)

[Jerry Olexa]

If those are Stanley-Baileys, they are worth the effort to restore IMHO.. Those are the best planes available at the time...Only ones comparable today are the LNs-Veritas.
More detail of the frogs and irons would help too...Good Luck.

[Tom Bender]

Give the planes a light cleaning if you want to use them or sell them. Restore them if you are looking for a new hobby.

Maybe Habitat can find a use for the clamps. Otherwise they may be scrap.

But this is just me keeping control in a small shop.

[Stew Denton]

I like the plane I use to be as rust free and shiny as is conveniently possible, also like to repaint the black japanning, and to refinish the tote. However, if you get all the rust of critical parts, and leave the patina or other areas a bit rust does in make a difference in how well the plane will work....not one whit.

If I have restored as many as some of the others here have, I might have a different view on a time consuming restoration to make them look as nice as possible...I might see things differently. Also, some prefer the look of patina, and want them to look like an old plane. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

One critical area, however, is the side of the iron that faces the wood which is being planed. When I get done restoring the plane, I want that free of pitting, rust, and patina. I want it to be flat, shiny like a mirror, and extremely smooth. That is critical to getting the iron extremely sharp with an edge that will hold it's sharpness as long as possible.

One area that is often corroded is the spot on an old plane where the cap iron contacts the iron. It is often badly corroded there, and it takes a lot of work, and may even be impossible, to get it worked down to a flat, shiny like a mirror, and smooth surface. In that case you will never get it to a sharp durable edge. When I have an iron like that, I use a cutter on my 4" right angle grinder, and cut the corroded part of the iron off back to good steel. Go easy using no pressure, cool the iron with water after every pass, and don't let the iron get hot to the point that the temper is ruined. It usually takes me several passes to cut off the corroded part of the iron as avoiding ruining the temper is the main consideration.

When the corroded portion has been cut off I grind a new bevel, getting it moderately close with the grinder at work (again being very careful not to get it hot and ruin the temper), and then finish grinding the bevel with stones and diamond plate.

Stew

[Mike Burke]

Well I have gotten around to knocking the rust of these and thought I would post some photos and ask a couple questions.

First one is a No. 7 It says Baily on it.
some observations...sole is perfectly flat according to my bridge city straight edge. The sides are perfectly square and straight and square to the sole.
I think it's a nice tool. I crudely sharped the blade and it shaved off some fine shavings from some 3/4" maple just fine. I am thrilled with it so far.

Second is a No. 4 It also says Baily on it
some observations....the sole had a rust spot in front of the throat so I sanded the sole and tried remove it. Almost got it all. I have noticed that the sole is not perfectly flat , even after sanding it for a while. It has a little belly, both from front to back and side to side. Maybe .002 or so.
The sides are not perfectly square either...a little rocking on my square and not perfectly square to the sole. It's not bad just not as perfect as the No 7
I don't know if this is normal. Just not as solid as the No. 7 as fare as square and straight.

My questions:

Should I consider buying new knives for them ?
Is it normal for the No 4 to have a little belly on the sole ?
I have seen where some like the sides to be a little beveled to slide across the work piece better.
Should I continue with my restoration and get these even cleaner ?



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Thanks for looking

[steven c newman]

Both look great. A little hollow in the sole of the #4 is fine. Both ends and around the mouth need to be co-planar with each other, is all.

Sides square to the sole, is only important IF the plane is used as a "chuting plane" with a shooting board. Irons look fine, should last a few more years worth of sharpening.

Both appear to be Type 10....just over 110 years old.

[Jim Koepke]

Should I consider buying new knives for them ?
Is it normal for the No 4 to have a little belly on the sole ?
I have seen where some like the sides to be a little beveled to slide across the work piece better.
Should I continue with my restoration and get these even cleaner ?

The #4 blade looks like it would benefit from being replaced.

The belly on the sole may have been caused by a previous owner trying to flatten the sole. The answer to your question should be determined by two things. One is how well the plane works in action. Second is how good are you at doing a metal work?

Getting them cleaner, polishing them to shine or repainting them all depends on how you want the planes to look when you use them. A clean, freshly painted plane is nice. For my personal planes, it is too much work and the planes work quite nice whether they are clean & shiney or if they have a centuries worth of patina.

jtk

[Mike Burke]

I might have used the wrong term
The No 4 sole has a bulge/bowed out. So convex.... The straight edge rocks a little when placed on the sole. The middle is pretty flat but the ends are beveled slightly. Cross ways it is flat.
These photos might show it better.
I have sanded the sole on a thick piece of glass and silicone carbide paper 120 grit. There was some rust in front of the throat that is just about gone.
I haven't hit it with a higher grit paper yet.
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If I were to get a new knife where would I look ?
What do you suggest ? Knife and chipper ?

Thanks for your time

[Rush Paul]

If I were to get a new knife where would I look ?
What do you suggest ? Knife and chipper ?
Mike, the slope at toe and heel is sometimes just a matter of wear over time but may also have been created intentionally by the former owner to prevent the plane from gouging into the work piece, particularly at the heel. I always grind my heels down just a bit exactly as your third picture in your last post demonstrates.

Your chip breaker looks okay from what I can see in your picture, but I agree with Jim that it's time for a new blade. For a new blade. I'll often look to eBay to see what's being offered in an old iron that can be reused. But, I'm one of those who prefer high carbon ("O1") steel and the standard "thin" original blade thicknesses, not the newer steels or thick blades. For a new manufactured blade, I'd recommend a blade from Hock Tools (http://www.hocktools.com/products/bp.html).

Paul Sellers has a good YouTube video about restoring and tuning up an old Stanley Bailey style plane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYyV6IUpsYk

Good luck! Nice to see an old tool being put back into service.

[Jim Koepke]

Mike, Your plane doesn't look too bad. Use it, if there isn't a problem, it doesn't need fixing.

Sadly there are no longer the inexpensive replacement blades available at hardware stores.

ebay has some listed, search > plane blade 4 5 < to find a few at various prices.

jtk

[steven c newman]

nhplaneparts usually has a few....mind the width of the iron/cutter/knife. Some will be sold with the chipbreaker/cap iron..as a set..

Make sure it is for the Stanley plane size you have....not all makers used the same spacings, bolts, widths...

[Tom Trees]

If you want to flatten your no.4 plane which has a belly. the abrasive needs to have a smaller surface area than the plane soles area.
If you keep lapping on a full length abrasive that is stuck down flat to a surface plate, it will create a convex profile.
Shiny dosen't mean flat!


I made two youtube videos on this as there was no mention on this anywhere.
Perhaps more noticeable or important on a longer plane, or one that has a movable shoe which has to be parallel with the sole.
or one that has been lapped before and is not as thick as you'd like.


A narrower surface area than the plane is will float the loose grit off the abrasive and not dull it as quickly, its also quicker as you have
better contact with the surface as your not being suspended on the grit, a bit cleaner to boot.
These videos will explain all,

Hope these links work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_ux786ODwg&t=687s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MlE7Nz3eKg

Tom

[Andrew Pitonyak]

They are always worth at least giving it a shot. I would take a look at the blades, if those are not good, you can always get more, but a good easy place to start. You do not need to totally remove all of the rust to test it, but it will need to glide on the wood for it to cut (mostly).

When things lift and we can interact again, if you live in Ohio, I know some people who would help you out if you need / want help :D

[Mike Burke]

I have ordered a new blade for this No 4. I have a Hoc blade coming for it.
I also need to get the blade for the No.7 sharpened. I was wondering if there is anyone in Southeast Iowa that would be willing to help me get these two planes tuned up ?
Any Creekers in South East Iowa ? I live in Oskaloosa.

Thanks

[Jim Koepke]

I have ordered a new blade for this No 4. I have a Hoc blade coming for it.
I also need to get the blade for the No.7 sharpened. I was wondering if there is anyone in Southeast Iowa that would be willing to help me get these two planes tuned up ?
Any Creekers in South East Iowa ? I live in Oskaloosa.

Thanks

Mike, Hopefully you are lucky and there is someone in your area to lend a hand.

What equipment do you have on hand for sharpening?

If you have any sharpening gear, it might be good to start with videos made by people with professional level sharpening skills > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lie+nielsen+sharpening+ <.

Hopefully this won't dive into a sharpening thread to bring out the 'Flat Bevelists', 'The Hollow Grinder Society' and the 'Don't Vex Make it Convex' crowds.

:D :eek: :D

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Not overly helpful, but if you get in a bind with your plane blade, if you send me your blade, I will put on a hollow grind then sharpen it... And then send it back to you.

With them hollow grind, you should be able to free hand grind.

[Mike Burke]

Hi Jim
I really don't have much for sharpening. I have a rough bench grinder and stone at work for our wood chisels.
We have sharpened our wood chisels for years but nothing to exact. Chisels get used a lot around here for digging out old window putty. But I have sharpened a bunch of them over the years...so I'm not new to sharpening.

I have a Norton dual sided Aluminum Oxide oil sharpening stone at home....its really old but not used much. Orange/gray color, not sure what grit it is. Says course/fine. I use if for my chisels.

Its time I look at getting the right setup to sharpen my plane blades. I have looked at the diamond stones from DMT but haven't bought anything yet.

Thanks for the offer Andrew...might do that.

[Jim Koepke]

Its time I look at getting the right setup to sharpen my plane blades. I have looked at the diamond stones from DMT but haven't bought anything yet.

Getting a system that works for your needs is the tricky part. They all seem to work and have their own advantages.

Some folks like their diamond stones. Mine are only used in the kitchen. They are a fine and extra fine mounted on blocks of wood. They are used to touch up the blades between trips to the shop. In the shop both oilstones and water stones are set up with a little bit of scary sharp with abrasive sheets.

Everyone has unique requirements their sharpening system needs to fulfill. For me it is a variety of woodworking tools, gardening tools and a few odd ball items like a razor, scythe or various, spur of the moment, metal working.

jtk

[Tom Trees]

New links for videos added for clarity
https://youtu.be/F1X56MKUEZ0
https://youtu.be/bfdmnMTK7Og