transtint question

[Bill Carey]

Can I use transtint with minwax penetrating stain? Need to get a darker walnut color

[Jim Becker]

You need to put the transtint on first...it's both water and alcohol soluble. It goes on first because the binder in the Minwax product seals the wood and it will not absorb they dye effectively at that point. To actually tint the minwax oil based stain to a different, darker color, you need either a pigment or a dye that's compatible with an oil base. Alternatively, you can create a glaze/toner using shellac that's tinted with the transtint dye and use that to alter the color of the previously applied Minwax oil based stain.

[Bill Carey]

Thx Jim. I'll try a couple of applications of the stain and then the tinted shellac.

[Jim Becker]

Bill, I never really did much with tinted finish/toners in the past but with my recent foray into guitar building has changed that. It can be a powerful tool. It can also be a disaster. :) If you have spray capability, you'll be able to exert a lot more control over the effect of the toner (tinted shellac in your case) so you can tip-toe up on the exact shade you want.

[Bill Carey]

No spray capability, Jim, so I'll do a lot of testing on the cutoffs I've saved. What could possibly go wrong?? Also trying a filler for the first time, so there's lots of opportunity for the disaster you refer to. As Brian says, bumbling forward into the unknown.

[Phil Mueller]

Bill, once you use filler, you’ll wonder what all the fuss is about. It’s pretty fool proof. I think I mentioned before, but seal the wood first with a seal coat shellac...one light coat should do it...keeps the filler from coloring the entire piece.

[Bill Carey]

Bill, once you use filler, you’ll wonder what all the fuss is about. It’s pretty fool proof. I think I mentioned before, but seal the wood first with a seal coat shellac...one light coat should do it...keeps the filler from coloring the entire piece.


Thx Phil. My understanding is that a seal coat will help with blotchy wood, and, as you say, keep the filler from coloring the wood, but it will also inhibit the stain from fully penetrating, making it harder to get the dark, dark walnut I'm looking for. Do I have this right, or am I missing something. (boy, I wish raw furniture was more popular. Finishing is not in my wheel house)

So far the best I've come up with is timbermate diluted as a filler, sand, 3 applications of minwax stain.

[Jim Becker]

Bill, the shellac will not "inhibit the stain from fully penetrating"....it will keep any dye in the stain from penetrating at all! The shellac seals the wood surface, for the most part. Pigment in a stain will still get into any pores, but probably not quite as well or with as bold an effect. A really super dilute cut might only partially seal, however. I personally prefer to do any grain filling after any coloration is accomplished and sealed for this reason.

[Phil Mueller]

My bad, didn’t re-read the post. If you’re after a dark color, yes, what Jim says. Color first, then seal, then fill. You might want to look into the Black Walnut Watco for the color. I haven’t used it, but apparently gives a great dark color. You’ll just need it to cure for a few days/week prior to the next steps.

Here’s a link to a video on walnut...at the end he goes over different finishing...fillers, finishes, etc.

https://youtu.be/CN8J7Nhk40Y

[Bill Carey]

Jeez, I need a book on finishing...

Jim: if I fill after the stain and sealing, won't the filler need to be sanded? And wouldn't that lighten the color?

Phil: thx for the vid - very helpful.

[John TenEyck]

Did I miss what wood you are using Bill? Makes a difference. But for many woods SW's BAC Wiping Stains will add amazingly deep color in one coat, like white oak to completely black, etc. The BAC Wiping Stains aren't really advertised much by SW's, but they exist and anyone can buy them if you ask. And they can custom mix any color for you if the stock ones aren't exactly what you are looking for. They are a mix of dye and pigment in a single product with a mostly Naptha base and essentially no binder, so it dries very quickly after wiping. After a couple of hours you can spray a light coat of Sealcoat or rattle can shellac to seal it in and then apply whatever topcoat you would like.

[Bill Carey]

Hey John - working on a small walnut conference table that needs to be a very dark walnut.

[Bill Carey]

Did I miss what wood you are using Bill? Makes a difference. But for many woods SW's BAC Wiping Stains will add amazingly deep color in one coat, like white oak to completely black, etc. The BAC Wiping Stains aren't really advertised much by SW's, but they exist and anyone can buy them if you ask. And they can custom mix any color for you if the stock ones aren't exactly what you are looking for. They are a mix of dye and pigment in a single product with a mostly Naptha base and essentially no binder, so it dries very quickly after wiping. After a couple of hours you can spray a light coat of Sealcoat or rattle can shellac to seal it in and then apply whatever topcoat you would like.


Thanks for the tip John - called a SW store near me and they can mix it up for me on the spot.

[Jim Becker]

Bill, if you apply grain filler properly, there is very little "sanding" required.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for the tip John - called a SW store near me and they can mix it up for me on the spot.

Good deal, Bill.

JOhn

[Phil Mueller]

Bill, I’ll throw one more idea at you. You can fill and stain and sand at the same time by wet sanding. Flood the piece with dark walnut or black walnut watco, let it soak in for about 30 minutes (keeping it wet) and then wipe it off. About every hour or so check it and wipe it...you will likely notice some of the finish will seep out over the coarse of the next few hours (I usually start this in the morning). Let it dry for a couple of days.

Flood it again and this time wet sand it with 400 grit wet/dry sand paper. It will form a slurry that will fill the pores. Let it sit about 15 minutes, then gently wipe it down. Check every hour or so again and wipe if needed, then let dry a few days.

If you see the pores need more filling, repeat the process.

Let it dry for at least a week, then top coat it.

It’s one of my favorite ways to finish...but it is a long process.

[John K Jordan]

Jeez, I need a book on finishing...



I like Bob Flexner's book Understanding Wood Finishing: How to Select and Apply the Right Finish


There's another book I've been thinking of getting and finally ordered:

The Art of Coloring Wood: A Woodworker’s Guide to Understanding Dyes and Chemicals
by Brian Miller and Marci Crestani

JKJ

[Bill Carey]

I like Bob Flexner's book Understanding Wood Finishing: How to Select and Apply the Right Finish


There's another book I've been thinking of getting and finally ordered:

The Art of Coloring Wood: A Woodworker’s Guide to Understanding Dyes and Chemicals
by Brian Miller and Marci Crestani

JKJ


Thx John - just ordered both. Maybe if I understand finishing better I won't dislike it as much. Or maybe I'll just better understand what I don't enjoy.

[Prashun Patel]

Bill, reading this thread I'm left with the impression that you or the team here thinks you need a complicated regimen to get where you want to be.

Can you show a picture of the kind of color you are after? What kind of sheen?

I am surprised that everyone's jumped into solution mode before asking which minwax stain you are using. You may just be able to use a darker stain or a different brand. The pigment stain is a good choice on walnut for a person who does not like finishing or has access to spray equipment. The reason is that you don't have to apply a seal coat on top. Walnut is very easy to stain, and will get super dark with very little effort; so you don't require all the control that a dye without sealer gives.

I suspect that a Minwax or General stain, then a couple coats of ArmRSeal (better, Waterlox OSF) are going to get you there.

Think HARD about whether you really want to fill it. Filling not only poses slight challenges to the coloring process, it also shows flaws in the top coat. Also, conference tables take even more abuse than a kitchen table. Glossy, super perfect finishes don't degrade as gracefully as satin or lower-build finishes. I have expereince with 2 conference tables at work. One finished to high build (conversion varnish) and a walnut one with a low build waterbased finish. Ironically, the second one looks way better than the first. The open pores of the walnut diffuse light and make imperfections less noticeable.

Last, for future ref, I'd consider buying low priced spray equipment. It really makes this whole process super easy. As long as you stick with 'easy-to-spray' finishes like shellac, and waterbased, it's not complicated nor expensive.

[Bill Carey]

Hi Prashun - believe me, simpler is way better for me when it comes to finishing. I started with minwax dark walnut 2716 and it was not quite dark enough, so had a custom mix made. So here's what will hopefully be my final test regimen, later this afternoon when I'm done working:
Sand to 320
grain fill with Goodfilla walnut
sand to 320
maybe Goodfilla a second time and sand
stain with minwax custom 150% walnut water based stain
perhaps a second coat of stain
lightly knock the grain down with a purple pad
dewaxed blond shellac
5 to 8 coats of minwax wipe on poly.

we'll see what happens

[John TenEyck]

Bill, sanding to 320 grit is part of the reason the stock stain didn't color it as dark as it would have had you stopped at 180 or 220 grit. On woods like walnut there's no reason to sand to a finer grit when using a film finish, especially if you are going to fill the grain anyway.

I'm not suggesting you change your finish schedule now, just letting you know for future reference.

John

[Edwin Santos]

Bill,

If simple is better for you, then here is an idea. Take a drive to the nearest art supply place. Pick out a tube of oil paint in the correct color family and darker than your stain. Then just take the Minwax stain that was not dark enough, and add the paint until you get what you want. I mix the oil paint with a little mineral spirits first just to dissolve it.

When you do this, just make sure you shake or stir the stain frequently because the artist paint pigment has a tendency to settle to the bottom if you leave it sitting for a while.

This solution is both inexpensive and simple. I hope it helps you,

Edwin

P.S. Just noticed that you may have already gone down a different path. If so, maybe this will be helpful for the future.

P.P.S Just noticed that you ordered Flexner's book. I recall he mentions the use of artist colors as a colorant so you can cross reference what I am describing when you get the book. Japan colors are another very good colorant that is compatible with oil based finishes, especially useful where you need color lightfastness due to UV exposure.