Kindergartner + bandsaw: Trouble?

[Roger Feeley]

I help cub scouts with Pinewood Derby cars. They've always be 3rd grade or older. I was just contacted by a den leader of 6 Kindergarten age kids.

I think an important part of the experience is doing it yourself and I make a point of having the kids use the power tools: Bandsaw, oscillating sander, stationary belt sander, router table, metal lathe and buffer. I have techniques and jigs to minimize the danger on all of these. I do a lot of practice with the kids and the dads are always close by. I never let the kid proceed unless both kid and dad are comfortable.

With these kids, I would still like to have them do the bandsaw. I have in mind a sort of U-shaped fixture to hold the work that would keep the kids hands well away from the blade. I have an old 12" Craftsman tilting head (bad idea) saw with a very fine 1/4" blade that I keep around mostly for the Derby cars.

Thoughts? The den leader is coming over this evening to strategize.

I know the kids will have fun. I built my own 32' test track. I have the means to do all that rail-rider stuff. But that's for the older kids. With these little ones, We will be happy if they make it to the end.

[Charlie Velasquez]

My 3 sons did pinewood derby all three years of their Cub Scout experience. I was a stickler that they do all the work themselves.
The process was
They look through magazines and such to find pictures of suitable designs.
I supplied paper with actual sized rectangles for them to draw their design, top and side view.
They drew the design, or rubber cemented it on the block.

The wood was very soft.
I clamped my belt sander on my bench.
With a course sanding belt, they had the shape in about 15 minutes.
We had a rule, you sand till the line was gone. If they wanted to tweak it after they removed the guide line, they had to make another guide line, no adlib sanding... Our first experience was, “I’ll just take a little more off this side...oops, too much, just a little more off this side to match...”. Had to buy another kit.
Hand sand from there.

We tried coping saws a couple of times for mass removal, but it was just as quick with the sander.

[Roger Feeley]

I really like the idea of the paper for sketching. I will do that.

[Jim Becker]

I'd be more comfortable with them using a fret saw to do the contours for their derby vehicles rather than the power tool. The level of liability lurking there is huge, especially with kids. Power sanding, no problem, but for cutting, hand-tools only and still VERY carefully supervised.

[Prashun Patel]

I've done Pinewood derby cars for several years, and I NEVER let the kids - even up to 12 years old - touch the bandsaw. I know the school lets them do it, but not on my watch.

The problem IMHO isn't with making the cut; it's the instinct of people to reach in and remove the cutoffs before the blade has spun down.

They do the design and drawing. I do all the bandsaw cutting, and they do all the spindle sanding, final sanding, wheel mounting, and painting.

[Rod Sheridan]

I do wood working with neighbourhood kids in the 6 to 9 year old and 10 to 14 year groups.

The younger kids are only allowed to use hand tools such as a coping saw, back saw, block plane and egg beater type drill.

Older kids start with the scroll saw, drip press, stationary belt sander and then band saw. They are trained as a group, then individually tested and their test papers and training records are kept. Training also includes lockout of the machine during tool or adjustments ( except for the band saw they simply unplug it and try to start the machine).

I also keep signed parental waivers. So far in 10 years no issues, a lot of fun.\\I'm glad to see you"re helping out your community members..........Rod.

[Stan Calow]

I think its a bad assumption that the dads (moms?) are knowledgable of safe operations will be able to manage their kids. Most men I know don't have or have ever operated a bandsaw. But then, I don't think my 4.5 yr old grandson (yes, I know k-garten is 5) has the attention span or dexterity to handle any power tool or even most hand tools. I see that from observing him play with his playskool set of tools.

[Kev Williams]

One of my cousins has been a butcher since he was 15 years old. After about a dozen years of practice, one day he was cutting a pork leg with a bandsaw- toothless blade. Something happened, the bone broke or the blade skidded off, but he wasn't expecting the sudden 'nothing' to cut and his hand was in the wrong place-- the blade immediately went thru the meat, then between his thumb and forefinger, and he couldn't stop the momentum it until it hit his watchband...

If not your kids, I wouldn't them anywhere near power your power tools, unless their parent(s) is supervising. Just never know...

[Doug Dawson]

I help cub scouts with Pinewood Derby cars. They've always be 3rd grade or older. I was just contacted by a den leader of 6 Kindergarten age kids.

I think an important part of the experience is doing it yourself and I make a point of having the kids use the power tools: Bandsaw, oscillating sander, stationary belt sander, router table, metal lathe and buffer. I have techniques and jigs to minimize the danger on all of these. I do a lot of practice with the kids and the dads are always close by. I never let the kid proceed unless both kid and dad are comfortable.

With these kids, I would still like to have them do the bandsaw. I have in mind a sort of U-shaped fixture to hold the work that would keep the kids hands well away from the blade. I have an old 12" Craftsman tilting head (bad idea) saw with a very fine 1/4" blade that I keep around mostly for the Derby cars.

Thoughts? The den leader is coming over this evening to strategize.

I know the kids will have fun. I built my own 32' test track. I have the means to do all that rail-rider stuff. But that's for the older kids. With these little ones, We will be happy if they make it to the end.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with Edward Gorey's "The Gashlycrumb Tinies".

[Matt Day]

I have a Kindergartener and a 1st grader. There’s no way they are ready for the bandsaw. Maybe the disc sander and spindle sander if I reduce the speed with my VFD.

Most parents I know are not ready for the bandsaw.

[Dave Cav]

I taught high school shop, and have done Pinewood Derby cars with the local Scouts. I don't think I would want kindergarten kids even IN my shop unless there was a 1 to 1 adult/kid ratio, and probably not even then. Well, maybe if all the breakers were open.

[Ron Citerone]

IMO no way would I let a Kindergarten kid use a band saw even with a jig or fixture. I taught middle school shop and for the first 15 years they could use band saws. Eventually our department decided (after some close calls) that we would limit them to scroll saws in Middle School and wait until High School for the band saw.

Another issue is regardless of age, there are kids with learning disabilities that need specialized help.............How would you know if one of those kids needed specialized help? I don't think you could count on parents to inform you.

My 2 cents.

Another question is how much learning is gonna take place when a kid that age to make a few cuts on a pine derby car that justifies the risk?

I just asked my wife, who taught Kindergarten for 30 years. She thinks Absolutely Not! She doesn''t believe the fine motor skills are developed enough.

[Roger Feeley]

These comments have been great! The kids I worked with back in Kansas and here so far must be exceptional. I've worked with one kid here for a couple of years now and he wants to do it again this year. I started with him when he was in 2nd grade. He was and is exceptionally coachable and I trust him to follow instructions. He uses all the power tools I mentioned. The only one that made him nervous was the router table. I think he did only part of the car and I did the rest. The kids back in Kansas were the same way. If they were anxious about any operation, I would step in but I gave them the opportunity to try.

But I've never worked with kids that young other then my grandson who has been in my shop on and off since he was 2. So he doesn't count.
I've also never worked with 6 at once. Always one kid, one parent, me and lots of patience.

[Matt Day]

I mean, one on one with a second grader is much different than a small group of K’s in your shop at once with a bunch of parents who likely don’t know what they’re doing either.

My kids (again, K & 1st) know all the machines and what they do and to wear safety glasses and ear protection and all that, but they aren’t ready to use anything.

Maybe think of a way to have them help in design and watch you or a parent execute. And show the kids what the plan is and how each machine works. Maybe some hand sanding or at the spindle sander. And decoration of course.

[Clark Hussey]

Thanks for the memories. My dad would hand me a rasp and sandpaper. I learned more doing that then running it through the band saw. When a drill was need it was a brace and bit.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Take a 3/8 hardwood dowel, turn on the band saw and swipe dowel thru saw. A 3/8" dowel is about the same size as a finger! Enough said?

[Lee Schierer]

With 5-6 year olds you are dealing with a very short attention span. Your best bet might be to cut a few more car like shapes than you have kids and let the kids pick out their favorite from the pile. Then let them do some light sanding, the decorating and assembly of the wheels. They will be far more interested in racing than spending time waiting for someone to supervise each one of them on the band saw while everyone else has to wait.

[Eric Danstrom]

Former Trained Assistant Den Leader here. I led woodworking projects from Bobcat, Cub Scout through Webelos. There's no way a kindergartner or first grader should be using a bandsaw, Kansas or not. Maybe you allow your kids and grandkids to use a bandsaw but as a Scout Leader there's more involved. I allow them to use a coping saw, hammer/nail and brace/bit at 2nd grade. Younger than that a parent had to be with the kid to use tools (Bobcat is a parent/child activity). I kinda followed the pocket-knife rules. No power tools for Cub Scout activities was the rule when I was involved in the 90's and 00's.

For my kids we made two cars exactly the same, one that I showed them how to do the operations/techniques and then they mimicked it on their car. At the end we had two cars exactly the same including paint (could not tell the difference) so we'd race 'em in the basement and choose the one that went straightest. I allowed then to use a jig saw at 2nd grade and that's all they needed for pinewood derby cars through Webelos.

[Steve Demuth]

I have a Kindergartener and a 1st grader. There’s no way they are ready for the bandsaw. Maybe the disc sander and spindle sander if I reduce the speed with my VFD.

I don't have kids that young, but I did once, and I do have children old enough to have their own kids that young. I agree emphatically. I wouldn't put a 6 year old on a bandsaw under any circumstance, mine or others.

I think an oscillating spindle sander like the very nice, affordable Ridgid, is something I could see them using (the drum mode, 80 grit max, not the belt mode). Very easy to minimize exposure with a hood jig, and if you do slip and make contact, you get a nasty "owey" but you'll walk away with all your digits working as designed. If they have to saw, good handsaws (fret or coping saw for curves) with appropriate guidance. If they are drilling, I wouldn't hesitate to have them on a drill press, with someone supervising and checking their clamping before they hit the on switch. I would even consider using a drill press with big forstner bit for "big" stock removal, before moving to sander. BIg forstner bit at the right speed and clamped material would require obvious dumb action to be very dangerous, and, frankly, they are fun in the way 6 year olds like their woodworking to be fun - pull the lever, and out come big piles of chopped wood.

[Edwin Santos]

With kids that age that are not your own, you have no real way of knowing much about each kid's hand/eye coordination and fine motor skills. They're all still in the developing stage and doing so at different rates. Just because one kid has the skills to perform an operation doesn't mean another does.
One on one, maybe you could assess this a little better.

As others have said, the downside of something going wrong is just too steep in this kind of situation.

[Rob Luter]

One of my cousins has been a butcher since he was 15 years old. After about a dozen years of practice, one day he was cutting a pork leg with a bandsaw- toothless blade. Something happened, the bone broke or the blade skidded off, but he wasn't expecting the sudden 'nothing' to cut and his hand was in the wrong place-- the blade immediately went thru the meat, then between his thumb and forefinger, and he couldn't stop the momentum it until it hit his watchband...

If not your kids, I wouldn't them anywhere near power your power tools, unless their parent(s) is supervising. Just never know...

My 7th grade shop teacher used beef leg bones to illustrate the damage that a bandsaw could do. After his demo none of us wanted anything to do with it :eek:

[Bruce Page]

I did a few derby cars with my grandson. I let him do the spindle sanding, etc, but not any cutting with the bandsaw. Disaster can occur before you can react.

[Matt Day]

And let’s not even get into any legal liability here.

[Eric Danstrom]

I found the Cub Scouts really liked woodworking with hand tools. They're allowed pocket knives and we felt saws, rasps, brace/bit and hammer/nails required a similar level of caution. I still have 6 coping saws :)

[jeff norris 2011]

zero chance of me letting 5 year olds use a bandsaw. Hand tools only, and even then I am doing the set up etc

[Rick Potter]

I also was a scoutmaster, and opened my shop to them as well as our church Awana kids. Did it for 4 or 5 years.

I had fathers come, and do the actual sawing out of the body, per the kids instruction and penciled lines on the cars. Some had no idea, and we had samples we kept to show them. The kids took the bandsawn bodies and were given sandpaper to smooth it, then we helped install the wheels if they needed it. Some bodies were sanded with my spindle sander by adults. There were 20-30 people at a time, including kids and adults.

As far as letting kids operate a saw, or even a sander...Never. I had enough trouble with their fathers using them. It may work out for a while, but someone is going to lose concentration, slip, cough, trip, or get jostled sooner or later. I will not take the chance some kid I don't even know will lose a finger, and I could lose my home.

PS: My favorite one was some kid who wanted the car to look like a slice of pizza. He even put pepperoni and cheese on it.

[John K Jordan]

I also was a scoutmaster, and opened my shop to them as well as our church Awana kids. Did it for 4 or 5 years.

I had fathers come, and do the actual sawing out of the body, per the kids instruction and penciled lines on the cars. Some had no idea, and we had samples we kept to show them. The kids took the bandsawn bodies and were given sandpaper to smooth it, then we helped install the wheels if they needed it. Some bodies were sanded with my spindle sander by adults. There were 20-30 people at a time, including kids and adults.

As far as letting kids operate a saw, or even a sander...Never. I had enough trouble with their fathers using them. It may work out for a while, but someone is going to lose concentration, slip, cough, trip, or get jostled sooner or later. I will not take the chance some kid I don't even know will lose a finger, and I could lose my home.

PS: My favorite one was some kid who wanted the car to look like a slice of pizza. He even put pepperoni and cheese on it.

I've taught kindergartners for over 25 years and have had several in my shop to make things.

I personally would not let a 5 or 6 year old operate a power tool, regardless of the safety holder I devised. They don't have the maturity, the focus, or the coordination needed. Some of the parents don't either. For one think, I don't want very young kids to go away thinking it's OK for them to turn on a bandsaw they find at a relative's or friend's house. In 4th grade I sat next to a guy with three fingers on one hand and two on the other after playing with a power saw in his dad's basement. This made a strong impression on me. (The only power tool ban exception I'll make is a drill press when the work is securely clamped.

423457

I will sometimes let older kids (10 and older) operate the scroll saw on thin materials.

I agree, let the kids sketch and design, have and adult with experience cut out the outline, then let the kids smooth by hand with files and sandpaper, paint, and assemble.

I also teach bandsaw classes and cover the many ways to get seriously hurt on the safest power saw in the shop.

JKJ

[Eric Danstrom]

PS: My favorite one was some kid who wanted the car to look like a slice of pizza. He even put pepperoni and cheese on it.

Here's some of the cars we made:
from left to right, mouse trap with dead mouse, camping scene, Hersey bar, Converse shoe, Scout in Canoe, Sub Sandwich
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[Rick Potter]

The real fun after the kids racing was the involved adults having their own races. I hate to brag (sure) but my anatomically correct, underweight, Swiss Cheese Wedgie was unbeaten for three years straight, when I retired it.

The next year the fastest adult used a totally untouched car blank with wheels.

Go figure.

[Roger Feeley]

Final report:
I needn't have worried. In the end, only one kid out of 6 actually showed up and he was very coachable.

-- I made a platform for him from two cheap plastic stools from HD and a piece of 3/4" plywood. I simply bolted the two platforms to support each end of the plywood. It worked out great and the platforms fold up. I will be using that with my grandson.
-- We did use a jig I had constructed for the bandsaw. At various points all three of us (kid, dad and me) were helping pilot the work. It went fine. Like the platform, the jig joins my other Pinewood Derby tools.
-- He also used the oscillating spindle sander. I have a Jet tabletop sander that I moved to the floor and he sat on the platform.
-- He used the drill press in conjunction with a fixture I made for drilling the axle holes. Again, Dad and I sort of steadied the work and he just operated the press.
-- I do my standard shtick about, "What do we do when things go wrong?" and we all hold our hands in the air.

All in all, it went very well. I was satisfied that he got the experience of doing it himself while, in truth, we were the puppetmasters pulling the strings.

Bandsaw jig photos. The light colored car blank is a fairly tight fit in the U-shaped plywood. It's not a press fit but it holds the car well enough. The blank is not a perfect square so there is a piece of wood spacer for turning the blank on it's side. The kid did a great job of just holding on to the green part and keeping his hands away from the red part.

The plywood is 3/4" thick and the blade is 32 tpi or so. So even if we cut into the plywood a bit, it's not going anywhere very fast.

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[Prashun Patel]

"I was satisfied that he got the experience of doing it himself while, in truth, we were the puppetmasters pulling the strings."

Best of both worlds!

[Rick Potter]

OK, now that that is finished, let's get down to the question I have been waiting to ask.

You earlier mentioned the tilting head on your Sears bandsaw was not a good idea. I have never used one, but always wondered how well it worked.

Why do you say it was not a good concept? What is wrong with it?

[Roger Feeley]

Agreed Prashun,

I'm a big proponent of teaching children to manage risk. In my view, we as a society insulate our children from all forms of risk and then, at the age of 16, and them keys to a 3,000 pound battering ram and tell them to have a nice life. An old insurance agent of mine told me once that the odds of someone having a major car wreck between 16 and 24 is 80%.

My solution is to deliberately expose them to some sort of risk and teach them from a young age about managing risk. With our daughter is was scuba diving where, if you do about 4 things wrong in a row you can die. Rock-climbing is good. And, of course there is woodworking where the risk isn't generally deadly but certainly disfiguring.

But the risk doesn't have to be all that real to feel real. In the case of my jig, I feel pretty confident that all the adult hands and the jig had reduced the actual risk a lot. It certainly helped that I had the rapt attention of a very well-behaved boy and a dad with the right attitude. But the illusion of the risk was there and that's what counted for me. The boy saw the risk, saw us help him manage the risk and felt that he had earned the right to make that cut by listening and following directions. All good.

[Roger Feeley]

OK, now that that is finished, let's get down to the question I have been waiting to ask.

You earlier mentioned the tilting head on your Sears bandsaw was not a good idea. I have never used one, but always wondered how well it worked.

Why do you say it was not a good concept? What is wrong with it?

The head tilting mechanism is easily jammed up with sawdust and most of the time won't tilt. But the truth is that I seldom want to cut at an angle. The head stays at 90 degrees and otherwise works just fine. I rather like the very large work surface. I should also point out that there's probably no way to add a spacer to do resawing with this bandsaw but that's not a big deal since I also have an 18" Rikon. I keep this little guy around for very light duty precision work. I keep a 32 tpi x 1/4" blade in it. It's ideal for Pinewood Derby or thin plywood or whatever.

It's an interesting question, really. If a product feature that you don't personally use or want is faulty, does that make it a bad product. In the abstract, I would say yes. If a product is supposed to do something and doesn't then it's a bad product. But, for a particular user, it might not matter. I would say that my bandsaw is a faulty bandsaw by design but only if I want to sell it.

[Roger Feeley]

The real fun after the kids racing was the involved adults having their own races. I hate to brag (sure) but my anatomically correct, underweight, Swiss Cheese Wedgie was unbeaten for three years straight, when I retired it.

The next year the fastest adult used a totally untouched car blank with wheels.

Go figure.

I used to joke that they should have an unlimited class for the adults where all rules were suspended. Put a cage around the track and allow rocket motors, blank shotgun shells, electric motors, whatever will fit on the track. That would be troublesome in our area because the competition track has a hump. The cars start at about 6' high, go down to floor level for a bit and up about 2' and back down the the finish. In my view, that imposes a theoretical maximum speed on the cars. I've seen a lot of cars go airborne and flip over. Generally, those cars were in the lead when they took to the air. I tell the kids that I help that they need to put their center of gravity a bit more to the front of the car to account for the hump.

[Charlie Velasquez]

Ok, I am surprised; maybe I am being too cynical, but what was the purpose of the opening post?

The responses were unanimous. Not just unanimous, but generally forcefully so. Never before have I seen such a consensus among a group of woodworkers.

It seems the decision was already made irrespective of the comments.

[Eric Danstrom]

Ok, I am surprised; maybe I am being too cynical...It seems the decision was already made irrespective of the comments.

It's all about what's important. If the emphasis is the adults and not the Scouts this is what happens. Same thing for Packs that run adult Pinewood Derbys.

[Roger Feeley]

Ok, I am surprised; maybe I am being too cynical, but what was the purpose of the opening post?

The responses were unanimous. Not just unanimous, but generally forcefully so. Never before have I seen such a consensus among a group of woodworkers.

It seems the decision was already made irrespective of the comments.

Charles, you aren’t being too cynical. I was and am biased towards having the kids use the machines. The posts warning caution did change my perspective a bit. If three kids. And parents had actually shown up, I would have suggested that I do the bandsaw work and only offered up my jig if the kid. And parent were really enthusiastic and if the kid seemed teachable. When there was only one kid and dad and both were enthusiastic and the kid was very teachable, I proceeded.

absent the thread and advice, I probably would not have made the jig and just opted for various quickly made push sticks.

[Jim Becker]

I'm glad that things worked out to your satisfaction, Roger. I remain very sensitive to the liability that comes with allowing others, especially minors, utilize power tools like this. If it's our own child...well...that's always our prerogative. But even with attorney-authored waivers, the risk is huge for this kind of thing, especially in this day and age.

[Roger Feeley]

I'm glad that things worked out to your satisfaction, Roger. I remain very sensitive to the liability that comes with allowing others, especially minors, utilize power tools like this. If it's our own child...well...that's always our prerogative. But even with attorney-authored waivers, the risk is huge for this kind of thing, especially in this day and age.

jim, I do take some steps to protect myself.
1. I never take any sort of payment for my work or the use of my shop. Not even a cookie.
2. I work with guests intensely to explain what’s going to happen and how we will do it safely.
3. I probably overstress this but before every machine operation, we go through a little ceremony, “what do we do if something goes wrong?” (We put our hands in the air and step away) “Let the machine have it!”
4. I hover, often with my hands very close.
5. The parent (required) also hovers.
6. No operation proceeds until both kid and parent approve. Usually after several practice runs with scrap.

in a litigation happy world and an area brimming with lawyers, that might still be inadequate. I guess I’m an optimist.

[Ole Anderson]

Still have some of my old pinewood derby cars in the attic. As mentioned, band saws are used to cut meat and bone in the butcher shop. Nuff said.