Is dust collection it's own sub hobby now?

[jeff norris 2011]

'Woodworking' seems to have lots of sub hobbies, like guys who spend more time restoring hand planes than using them or guys that prefer making shop projects over producing something in their shop. All good with me.

But have we reached a point where dust collection is not about practicality, but rather a hobby in itself?

[Mike Cutler]

Sometimes I think it has reached cult status.:eek:
Seriously though,it is an important topic, and aspect of wood working.

[jeff norris 2011]

Yes dust collection is very important, but people are designing and building their DC systems for pleasure now in many instances . It is kind of a neat evolution of a task that once was a necessary but unpleasant part of woodworking.

[John K Jordan]

But have we reached a point where dust collection is not about practicality, but rather a hobby in itself?

My opinion: I don't think so, no more than lighting, HVAC, electrical wiring or air compressor plumbing. I think of all these things as important infrastructure for the shop. All of them may take a lot of research, money, and effort to put into place and do it right. But once in place they are just used and and never touched again unless broken or for maintenance (changing bulbs, filters, draining tank, emptying bin) Those who don't get them right the first time may spend more time and money on them later but by necessity. I can't imagine anyone enjoying working on these things like a hobby.

JKJ

[Larry Frank]

There are some who enjoy trying to improve dust collector. It seems that there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time and money with the Harbor Freight dust collector.

Not me, I got a powerful cyclone and just enjoy how well it works.

[Frank Pratt]

For me, it's part of the WW hobby. I enjoyed the whole installation, although it mushroomed a LOT, now it's done I sure am glad I have it.

[Bill Jobe]

For me it is trying to become a career.....

[Andrew Seemann]

For some it is. Most people put in their collection set up and are done with it, but some folks like to tinker and keep finding ways to get that particle count down. Kind of like those that get into sharpening. Most people sharpen when they have to, but for some it is an end onto itself, rather than just a maintenance issue.

I would not be either of those people, although I need to consciously try to keep myself from doing nothing but shop improvement projects sometimes:)

[Mark Hennebury]

50 years in the workshop, full-time, long hours, long weeks, covered in dust every day. According to what i read on the current clean-room dust collection concept, i should have died within the first month. But then i also eat peanut butter everyday, and some people it would kill. I always wore a dust mask, ear plugs and safety glasses and occasionally used a small dust collector that didn't do much dust collecting, seemed to do okay for me.

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[Ted Reischl]

I had to chuckle reading through this thread.

IMHO it is sort of like "virtue signaling". SEE! MY air is cleaner than yours, so that makes me a better woodworker and person!

Then I think about the concept of "The area of diminishing returns" . Initial effort and investments pays large dividends, but getting the last little bit takes much more time, effort and investment with minimal improvement.

So, no, I do not think it has become a hobby, more like a quest. It provides a wind mill for the Don Quixote in some of us, LOL.

[glenn bradley]

Woodworkers in general seem to be a clever lot. Certainly there is a sampling of us who would rather talk numbers than real-world results. Others find "good enough" to be measured in 8ths while others use 128ths. Some of us like to build shops and are constantly rearranging and improving them but, never make anything more involved than a cutting board. It's all good.

I recall a thread, I think it was here . . . A store owner had a customer that came in regularly and bought all sorts of machines, supplies, accessories, etc. etc. Finally the store owner asked the guy what sort of furniture he made. The guy seemed a little embarrassed as he explained that he hadn't made anything yet. The store owner never saw him again.

I for one, am fine with any take on the craft you want to use your time and money on. Knock yourself out and have some fun. :)

[Andrew More]

Yeah, I think so. It definitely seems to dominate the discussion in this forum in a way that lighting, HVAC, and other workshop topics do not.

Part of it is the effect of Bill Pentz's site on the discussion, which has raised awareness of the issues. OTOH, I also think that the site has added an unnecessarily amount of FUD to it as well.

Further, unlike a lot of other shop projects it's a very complex subject. First you have all the information that's been made available by Mr. Pentz and others. Information that really take a while to read and fully digest. Then there is the specifications from the manufacturers, which may or may not be suspect, and according to Mr Pentz really matters in a way that it does not for things like a table saw, or drill. These specifications are then effected by a host of situations in the shop itself, some of which are simple (seal your ducts) some of which are more complex (when to narrow the duct, what length the drops, where to put the gates, which gates to use, etc.) to the downright byzantine (what is the air flow around a miter saw when it has such and such a shroud).

Further it is difficult to do a personal evaluation of dust collectors, since it's a major purchase. Most people are going to buy one, or maybe 2-3 in the course of their wood working. It's really the sort of thing you'd want done by an objective, professional organization, such as a magazine, just like they do with cars. To the best of my knowledge there has been one evaluation of dust collectors, by Wood magazine, about a decade ago, and it didn't cover cyclones.

Then you get into the health effects. For some people there are none, and it's not clear if they're like the granny who smoked and drank for years and lived to 99. For other people there are immediate effects, such as the ones Bill Pentz ran into, where he had an immediate reaction. This is before you start talking about the wildly varying sentization effects of various woods. If you work with Pine all day long, you can probably bath in the stuff. If you work with rosewood, you probably should wear a full tyvek suit or something. Add onto this the difficulty in assessing any sort of health problem. If I cut myself on the table saw, the chain of cause and effect is immediate. If I develop lung cancer or a breathing problem is it because of the wood I'm using, dust collector, the coal plant down the road, cars driving by, my chain smoking, or some other carcinogen I don't even know about?

Then there are the different goals associated with it. For some people it's just a nicety to keep them from having to clean the floor as much, or keeping tools from getting jammed with chips. For others, such as Bill Pentz it's a requirement to have the shop to near clean room specifications to avoid a serious health reaction.

Also there are nuances in measuring the efficiency of the collector. You need to buy additional tools and understand their use to evaluate the job done by the dust collector. Some of these have their own complex skills, such as reading and understanding a anemometer. Depending on the reading, your skill with the measuring tool, and a variety of other complex factors you may or may not be at risk for health problems.

Contrast this with just about any other tool in the shop. Generally you buy the tool, make a few minor adjustments, and you're done. The goal of the tool can easily assessed (did it cut/shape the wood? how clean is the cut?). Everybody can see and agree that the result is good, and generally they're going to be in agreement as to the goal of the tool.

[Ole Anderson]

I suppose for some that are uber detail oriented and cannot ever reach a final conclusion that may seem the case. For me, I did a lot of research, starting of course With the Bill Pentz website, then I designed and built my dust collection system including a downdraft table and hanging an ambient air cleaner. I loved building that setup as much as any woodworking project I have ever undertaken. Haven't really needed to tweak it since February 2011 when I built it. I will say that I do occasionally stop and admire it. Some of us enjoy the shop building journey as much as the end stop of making woodworking projects. I will spend an hour making a jig that will save me ten minutes. "God I love my shop" is a thought that often occurs to me as I enter it. But then it has been a 45 year journey. I just got a PC 20 volt grinder/jigsaw/recip saw combo and realized I have no space on my walls to hang them.

[Andrew More]

I loved building that setup as much as any woodworking project I have ever undertaken.

Ain't that the truth. As a weekend warrior I often joke with people I built a dust collector more for the challenge than the utility. It's often the thing I'm most proud of in the shop. It's also a lot of fun with the kids as I pretend to have it eat their fingers, hands and toes, or have them feed "Mr Chompy" some sawdust off the floor. (Not sure if I'm allowed to admit to playing with the dust collector to the Very Serious Cult of the Dust Collector :) )

[Bill Dufour]

I strongly suspect all the CFM and pressure data supplied with dc equipment made in China. I think they are all basically the same and made in the same factory. I assume as the motor gets bigger the dc becomes more powerful. But I think all these figures are inflated like sears vacuum power numbers.
I buy made in Sweden ear protectors because I believe their ratings but not the china stuff, which is rated lower anyway.
Do I really believe the appliance efficiency rating? The noise rating? The Mitsubishi quiet split system is more then twice as loud as mine at the lowest settings. I do think mine is quiet enough. Sound ratings are very easy to fudge by moving the micro phone a little bit further away.
Being taller probably reduces the sound by 20% or more for a hand held device like a sander. Think about that if my extra arm length and spine length moves my ears up 6" higher over say 2.5' that is like 20% more distance squared so 6.25 compared to 9 is about 30% reduction. Please check my math.
Bill D.

[Tom Dixon]

For me, dust collection has been a project to complete. An aspect of the construction of my dream shop. The one I plan to spend my retirement years in creating beautiful wood things. Up until I moved where I live now, dust collection was a 2HP G0548 with a couple 10' hoses and a rigid shop vac. Once I started planning building my dream shop, (after a 4 year hiatus without any shop), dust collection became an integral part of the overall plan. It took over 2, almost 3 years, to go from empty new shop building to having a well planned and executed DC system installed to meet my machine workflow pattern. Over the last 8 months I built an external insulated shed to house the cyclone, installed the cyclone and then installed all the spiral ducting. Now that I have all the major stuff done it is an absolute pleasure to work in an almost dust free shop. I can't imagine needing to spend any more time making a hobby out of tweaking my setup. Unless I add a machine beyond my existing plan, my focus will be elsewhere. However, I did spend a pile of money to "do it right the first time" because I saved specifically for what I had planned and waited until I was ready to execute in full and even that took 8 months to complete from start to finish.

I think a lot of the "dust collection hobbyists" just can't afford to do it all at once and feel they need to, so it is always an ongoing project to improve what they have and therefore becomes a quest to obtain a better system than what can initially be acquired. If you are constantly tweaking on the cheap it becomes a way of life. I made do with a $500 "gud nuff" DC for a lot of years before I finally pulled the trigger to get it all. Man was it worth the wait.

[Mike Rambour]

for me, it was a pandora's box, once opened it was hard to stop. I have never had a DC in my shop, just a shop vac for the last 40 years. I got a new table saw to replace my Unisaw, there was nothing wrong with my Unisaw except it had a 52" fence and I decided that I no longer needed that since I purchased a track saw for sheet goods, so I got the 36" saw and decent casters (the Unisaw had no casters, very stationary). The Unisaw had no dust collection port, it just dumped the sawdust on the floor, the SawStop came with a dust port and i started looking into a DC. I quickly went from a Harbor Fright one to Oneida to Clear Vue and the price went up each time I thought about it. I went from around $500 to $3,500 once the ducting was done and the price was still climbing as I was adding things when I finally put the brakes on.

I ended up finding a used Oneida 3HP Dust Gorilla and ducted it with cheap Home Depot ducting, quite happy for 4 days, it really sucked (in a good way) and then the cheap ducting collapsed, so now I am putting in proper ducting. Dust Collection is a part of the hobby but for me at least it was super easy to go "just a little better" over and over again until it was stupid expensive.

The good part about the used unit i bought, i am using the old filter that came with it for Bondo work on the car and saving the new filters for woodwork as soon as I paint the car.

[Frank Pratt]

I'm enjoying this thread, which is really more about the psychology of a hobby than it is about dust collection. It's nice to have a hobby with so many interesting diversions to it. To bad it's so damned expensive ;)

[jeff norris 2011]

Woodworkers in general seem to be a clever lot. Certainly there is a sampling of us who would rather talk numbers than real-world results. Others find "good enough" to be measured in 8ths while others use 128ths. Some of us like to build shops and are constantly rearranging and improving them but, never make anything more involved than a cutting board. It's all good.

I recall a thread, I think it was here . . . A store owner had a customer that came in regularly and bought all sorts of machines, supplies, accessories, etc. etc. Finally the store owner asked the guy what sort of furniture he made. The guy seemed a little embarrassed as he explained that he hadn't made anything yet. The store owner never saw him again.

I for one, am fine with any take on the craft you want to use your time and money on. Knock yourself out and have some fun. :)

I hope my first post did not come off as criticism of any one. Not my intent. Being tinkerer is a great hobby.

[Jim Andrew]

Most of my career, did not have any dust collection. When I retired, decided to read up on table saws, and find the best one for my use. Got rid of my old table saw and jointer, and bought bigger better. Decided I needed a DC system, came back to the forum to read up on all the choices to make. This forum has cost me a lot of money, but I also have a much nicer shop.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I made the jump early last year to upgrade my original Delta 1.5 HP with 30-micron top bag. I was tired of sneezing out a nose full of dust after running the DC, no matter which tool it was hooked up to. Often my airways would stay dusty well into the night even after a hot shower. No bueno.

First I hung a Jet air cleaner overhead, and that would clear the air after the leaky white bag blasted all the sub-30-micron dust into the shop. The dust didn’t last with the Jet running on high, but it would fill the air before getting cleared. Something still had to change. 30 microns is big when it’s in the air you breathe.

Along came the Super Dust Deputy, Wynn 1-micron* filter, 30 ft of 4” PVC pipe, lots of 45° pipe fittings, and shop-made blast gates. Lots of design/layout time locating a dropdown for every tool. Choosing a pipe hanging method. Choosing the bucket. Then came the dismantling and hanging the DC components and system construction. Weeks later, there it was.

Now there’s no noticeable dust coming out of the Wynn, and if there is any it blows right into the Jet’s intake filter. The table saw still kicks up dust and bits on thin rips, but that’s the only particle invasion I have anymore. If I can figure out an effective above-table dust catcher, I’ll add that someday.

With the Deputy in line, I use the system to suck up a foot-tall benchful of shavings after hand planing. It’s fun watching all that stuff just float away. At the end of the session, the floor gets swept and then sucked clean.

Yes, the DC is loud. But after all, I mostly only use it when I’m running a power tool anyway, when I’m already wearing my high-dB earmuffs. Using the muffs for just the dust system is not a bother.

Not only do I admire my handiwork every time I switch on the dust system, but I also love the clear nostrils — not because I think dust is some kind of imminent killer health risk, but because a dusty nose is unpleasant.

*Filter rating is MERV 15: traps 85 to 94% of particles between 0.3 and 1.0 micron. Also traps bacteria!

[Andrew More]

The table saw still kicks up dust and bits on thin rips, but that’s the only particle invasion I have anymore. If I can figure out an effective above-table dust catcher, I’ll add that someday.

These overarm collectors (https://woodworker.com/excalibur-overarm-tablesaw-guard-with-dust-collection-mssu-914-337.asp)seem to work decently. This one is from General Internation, but I've seen similar designs from Grizzly, and SawStop.

[David Justice]

I'm a full time furniture maker and DC is just another tool to me. I just want one that works and I don't have to think about, not something to spend any more time on than I need to. Like other tools that usually means it's going to be expensive, but that's OK, I'll gladly pay for the convenience and the time back to actually make furniture.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Andrew, The photos always look nice, but I never seem to see video of them under working conditions. I did see a YouTube video once where all kinds of dust still came out under the bottom edge of the unit.

[Rod Sheridan]

Andrew, The photos always look nice, but I never seem to see video of them under working conditions. I did see a YouTube video once we are all kinds of dust still came out under the bottom edge of the unit.

Once I went to over blade dust collection I no longer had to empty out the saw dust from my apron pockets.

The particle counter showed huge improvements as well............Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Dust collection is one of those things that we all have the constant opportunity to try and improve, so yes, sometimes it can seem like it's a "quest of its own". But that's honestly not such a terrible thing unless, of course, the dust producing side of activities stops happening. :)

[John Makar]

I don't know the motivations of other shop owners, other than what they post here. What I find interesting is when someone else posts exactly what I am thinking in exactly the same words that I use. Thanks for the tip on the PC20. I also don't have room, and probably would have bought it or similar. Do let me know when you solve that problem.

[Andrew More]

Andrew, The photos always look nice, but I never seem to see video of them under working conditions. I did see a YouTube video once we are all kinds of dust still came out under the bottom edge of the unit.

Here's the collector in action. Rob Cosman seems to think it's worth the cost, despite having some issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxmeTNhHPkU

More DIY version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1HbHtmY138

It also depends quite a bit on the cut being made. Some cuts are better than others at throwing dust into the cabinet.

Finally some blades seem better than others. Most blade teeth strike the wood flat, but I've got a Frued blade that has slanted teeth, so that when the blade cares the dust into the cabinet it throws it off the blade once it exits the wood. A flatter tooth would carry more of the dust around with it, flinging it up in the air as it exits the saw cabinet.

If you want to argue that they aren't useful I'm going to respectfully disagree. If you want to argue they don't collect all the dust, I think we're mostly in agreement. However, I find that with almost all the dust collection shrouds for my equipment. No perfect dust collection.

[jeff norris 2011]

Here's the collector in action. Rob Cosman seems to think it's worth the cost, despite having some issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxmeTNhHPkU



Any one else notice the rob has a 4" drop and then runs 4" above and below the saw? His table dust collection would go way up with a 6" drop.

[Bob Jones 5443]

If you want to argue that they aren't useful I'm going to respectfully disagree. If you want to argue they don't collect all the dust, I think we're mostly in agreement. However, I find that with almost all the dust collection shrouds for my equipment. No perfect dust collection.

I'll argue the latter with you. I would also say that having any kind of collector shield will keep bits from flying up into your face. So I'll very likely mod something up this year. We're in active agreement.

[Frederick Skelly]

I loved building that setup as much as any woodworking project I have ever undertaken. Some of us enjoy the shop building journey as much as the end stop of making woodworking projects. "God I love my shop" is a thought that often occurs to me as I enter it.

I'm right there with you Ole! I like making shop furniture as much as I like making something for the house. And it makes me happy as heck just to go in and sit there. Sometimes when I leave for work, I just step in, look around, smile and go on my way. It's nothing fancy, expensive or enormous and you cant eat off the floor. But it's a pretty nice shop.

[Andrew More]

I'll argue the latter with you. I would also say that having any kind of collector shield will keep bits from flying up into your face. So I'll very likely mod something up this year. We're in active agreement.

I'm still trying to figure out what to do for overarm dust collection on my tablesaw, so I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with.

[Andrew More]

Any one else notice the rob has a 4" drop and then runs 4" above and below the saw? His table dust collection would go way up with a 6" drop.

Good point,if he ran 6" to the two 4" splits he'd likely get better results.

[Tom Dixon]

I'm using the Grizzly over arm dust collector on my Unisaw. It is a 4" wye off of a 6" pipe that goes all the way to the Uni using a custom 6" fitting The Blastgate Company built for me.

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[jeff norris 2011]

I'm using the Grizzly over arm dust collector on my Unisaw. It is a 4" wye off of a 6" pipe that goes all the way to the Uni using a custom 6" fitting The Blastgate Company built for me.

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yes this how rob should run it. gorgeous shop by the way.