Reasons NOT to use hide glue for workbench

[chris carter]

Is there any reason NOT to use hide glue when building a workbench? I’m in the early stages of building a new split-top roubo bench and approaching my first M&T glue-ups. I mostly use hot (and sometimes liquid) hide glue building my furniture and other projects and it just makes joints go together so ridiculously easily without any force. But I know that despite being strong hide glue is very brittle when it’s fully dry. I’m wondering if that’s potentially problematic once I start pounding away on this bench for the next 40 years or however long I live and can raise a mallet. I just wonder if all the hard shocks combined with some flexing will cause the glue to crack the way a luthier cracks open the top of a violin for a repair. I realize that back in the day they used hide glue for everything, but they also had no choice and I’ve been unable to find good info on how well these benches held up over time. The abuse a piece of furniture takes is one thing, but the abuse a workbench takes is on a whole different level of torture. Granted, I could easily repair any M&T joints, but I was also planning on drawboring them which would complicate such a repair down the road. Would love some thoughts on this....

[Doug Dawson]

Is there any reason NOT to use hide glue when building a workbench? I’m in the early stages of building a new split-top roubo bench and approaching my first M&T glue-ups. I mostly use hot (and sometimes liquid) hide glue building my furniture and other projects and it just makes joints go together so ridiculously easily without any force. But I know that despite being strong hide glue is very brittle when it’s fully dry. I’m wondering if that’s potentially problematic once I start pounding away on this bench for the next 40 years or however long I live and can raise a mallet. I just wonder if all the hard shocks combined with some flexing will cause the glue to crack the way a luthier cracks open the top of a violin for a repair. I realize that back in the day they used hide glue for everything, but they also had no choice and I’ve been unable to find good info on how well these benches held up over time. The abuse a piece of furniture takes is one thing, but the abuse a workbench takes is on a whole different level of torture. Granted, I could easily repair any M&T joints, but I was also planning on drawboring them which would complicate such a repair down the road. Would love some thoughts on this....

I don't see how a properly made draw bore would complicate a repair. FWIW, if you draw bored a M&T joint in a workbench, you likely wouldn't even _need_ to glue it.

[Andrew Seemann]

The main reason I would see for not using hide glue on a bench is the reason that musical instrument makers like it: lack of creep. While this is (debatably) a positive for a musical instrument, it usually is a negative on a piece of furniture where you are fighting expansion and contraction. On a Roubo, you have that long, wide joint on the top. Even with book matched pieces, there probably will be some uneven movement.

Titebond or similar will accommodate this movement (to a point) without failure. Also, a joint that large is going to be a bit difficult to do without the shop being really hot or adding urea or a similar retardant (basically making Liquid Hide Glue), which at that point you might as well use Titebond. If you go the Titebond route, use original, rather than 2. It has a longer open time. Same thing with the M&T joints. It is just easier to use and gives just a little bit in service, especially on the long and wide joints of a workbench. On my first Frid bench, the dovetails on the tail vise would have cracked if I had used hide glue, they were just wider than what the maple wanted to do.

Background: I used to be a hide glue snob, but now I only use it where its properties make sense in application/usage. Cold glue is just so much easier to use, and it works for 90% of what I do. And for all the mystique and reverence I see piled on hide glue by purists, over my life, I have seen much more failure in hide glue joints than any other type.

[J. Greg Jones]

It was 10, perhaps 11, years ago this month when a group of us spent a week at Kelly Mehler’s woodworking school building 10 all new workbenches. We made some with a Roubo split-top, some were more of a Holtzapffel design, but all the bases were assembled with drawbored M&T joints and Old Brown Hide Glue. To my knowledge, there has not been any failures in any of them.

[Derek Cohen]

It was 10, perhaps 11, years ago this month when a group of us spent a week at Kelly Mehler’s woodworking school building 10 all new workbenches. We made some with a Roubo split-top, some were more of a Holtzapffel design, but all the bases were assembled with drawbored M&T joints and Old Brown Hide Glue. To my knowledge, there has not been any failures in any of them.

Yes, Greg ... but it has only been 10 years. Please report back in 100 years :)

I cannot recall what glue I used. It is likely I used Titebond Liquid Hide Glue on anything that may need pulling apart for repair (such as a leg joint), since that is my usual rule). I am happy to use yellow glues on a panel, such as the bench top, where it is not expected to come apart.

Regards from Berlin

Derek

[Dave Anderson NH]

Andrew has some good points about hide vs Titebond. I do disagree on which Titebond to use. When I built my bench I chose Titebond Extend which has the longest open time of all the various Titebonds. It made the glueups much less stressful and eliminated rushing to get everything together and clamped. For furniture I use hide glue, either liquid or hot.

[Mike Henderson]

The main reason I would see for not using hide glue on a bench is the reason that musical instrument makers like it: lack of creep.

I don't think lack of creep is the reason luthiers use hide glue. I spent some time with a luthier and discussed glue. He said he uses hide glue because it breaks away, allow him to remove a top(also called the "front") or back for repair of the interior of an instrument. I asked about fish glue and he said that if he used that, he wouldn't be able to remove the top or back.

He said he uses a thin tool, and hunts for an opening between the top and the side. He slips the tool into that opening and then pries the top off slowly. The hide glue apparently does not have a lot of strength in tension and it allows the top or back to break free at the glue line.

I want to be very clear that luthiers do not use heat to remove a top or back. Attempting to do so would damage the finish and cause significant harm to the value of the instrument.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Of course, if you want really long open time, there are some very slow epoxies available. West Systems has a slow hardener that gives you at least an hour of open time. If you put the glue on ice you can get a lot more.

I tried hot hide glue and open time is a serious problem. I don't know how our ancestors applied hot hide glue to dovetails and got them together before the glue gelled.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, the best thin tool for opening glue joints is the springs from broken tape measures. Break them to size and file off
the burr.

[Andrew Seemann]

I don't think lack of creep is the reason luthiers use hide glue. I spent some time with a luthier and discussed glue. He said he uses hide glue because it breaks away, allow him to remove a top(also called the "front") or back for repair of the interior of an instrument. I asked about fish glue and he said that if he used that, he wouldn't be able to remove the top or back.
Mike

It is one of the reasons that instrument makers use it, not specifically luthiers, particularly for something like a bridge on a harpsichord or piano, where there is a lot of sideways force. Additional reasons are supposed enhanced transfer of vibrations and other things like that. Glue is quite controversial in instrument making, kind of like finishes, (nitro vs poly for a guitar or Stradivarius magic vs whatever modern-varnish-that-couldn't-hope-to-be-as-good). Many a flame war and probably a fist fight or two has been started by glue discussions. My personal belief is that since hide glue is harder to use vs standard glue, the romantic nature of instrument makers makes some of them believe it to be superior just because it is harder to use. Kind of like a planed vs sanded surface debate.

As you mention, reversibility is one of the main reasons it gets used, and probably the most legitimate instrument making reason to use it. Shock, water, and heat can all be used, or combinations thereof as appropriate. The supposed acoustic and need for non creep properties relative to standard Titlebond style glues are probably exaggerated at best in the practical physics of instruments.


To extend the working time of hide glue, either the work (or the whole shop) can be heated to make it take longer to cool and gel, or else retardants can be added like salt, urea, or other chemicals with long names I can't remember off the top of my head.

Even with set up extended, I probably wouldn't use it on a work bench, as most of its "good" properties are lost on a bench at best, or not helpful at worst:)

[chris carter]

Thanks Andrew and Mike. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for! I think I'm going to stick with white glue for this one. I'll just make sure my tenons aren't so snug that I need a sledge hammer to get them together.

BTW - yes, when I do long glue ups, if I use hot hide glue I just add salt to give me more time... or I use the titebond liquid hide glue, but I find that stuff takes FOREVER to harden. If I need a lot of time for non-hide glue, I tend to use Elmers Glue-All which has a very long working time.

[J. Greg Jones]

Yes, Greg ... but it has only been 10 years. Please report back in 100 years :)
I suspect it is highly unlikely that I’ll be around in 30 years to report how they’ve done after 40 years! :)

[Andrew Seemann]

Thanks Andrew and Mike. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for! I think I'm going to stick with white glue for this one. I'll just make sure my tenons aren't so snug that I need a sledge hammer to get them together.


I'd probably go with a "yellow" glue one a "white" glue. They are stronger, and white glues can exhibit quite a bit of creep, sometimes more than desire. White glues also can be a bit on the gummy side. Titlebond Extend as noted above is ideal for the slab joint, Original would probably work fine if you can't find Extend (it isn't as readily available here), or their equivalents.

[Doug Dawson]

I suspect it is highly unlikely that I’ll be around in 30 years to report how they’ve done after 40 years! :)

How are the benches doing that are already 100+ years old...

[chris carter]

You could probably count on one hand the number of workbenches that are still in use today after 100 years of continuous use (even ones that didn't get continuous use are few and far between). The problem is determining what retired the bench before its 100th birthday. Did the hide glue crack and fail? Did it take so many dings and dents that after 80 resurfacings there was nothing left to resurface? Termites? Rot? Did someone have a bad winter and need more firewood?

[Jim Koepke]

You could probably count on one hand the number of workbenches that are still in use today after 100 years of continuous use (even ones that didn't get continuous use are few and far between). The problem is determining what retired the bench before its 100th birthday. Did the hide glue crack and fail? Did it take so many dings and dents that after 80 resurfacings there was nothing left to resurface? Termites? Rot? Did someone have a bad winter and need more firewood?

Maybe a worker retires where no one wanted an old bench other than family. Over time even the family has no place to use or keep it. A bench that remains in pristine condition after a century has likely not seen much real work taking place upon its surfaces.

A bench my father built of construction lumber and nails had years of use until he retired. It sat protected in my yard for a few years until a friend had a place to use it. After many years he moved and left it in the garage of his home. Neither of us know the new owners. My hope is they will find it useful for many years to come.

jtk

[John K Jordan]

... reversibility is one of the main reasons it gets used, and probably the most legitimate instrument making reason to use it. Shock, water, and heat can all be used, or combinations thereof as appropriate....

The ability for the next rebuilder to take the joints apart is the reason I used hide glue when extensively rebuilding a player piano mechanism. The books, player mentor, and a piano technician friend strongly recommended this. If this 80+ year old piano had not been put together originally with hide glue I probably would have had great difficulty rebuilding it. For this use the working time wasn't a problem since there were scores of smaller joints but no large assemblies. A hot iron was my friend.

Still plays fine at least 30 years later!

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JKJ

[Doug Dawson]

You could probably count on one hand the number of workbenches that are still in use today after 100 years of continuous use (even ones that didn't get continuous use are few and far between). The problem is determining what retired the bench before its 100th birthday. Did the hide glue crack and fail? Did it take so many dings and dents that after 80 resurfacings there was nothing left to resurface? Termites? Rot? Did someone have a bad winter and need more firewood?

You'd probably want to query "historic industrial" sources. Colonial Williamsburg? The museums? Heirs of the factories of the past? Even the patternmaker-type sources from the early 20th century (the Henry Ford museum, design shops, etc.) We can't _all_ have been using modern adhesives. If somebody wants to do a Masters thesis on this, hey...

[J. Greg Jones]

How are the benches doing that are already 100+ years old...
Interesting that you should ask that. With the bench build I discussed above, we replaced every bench in Kelly’s shop... but two. One is the LN bench in the middle of the picture (excellent bench BTW, nicer than the ones they make today). The second is the bench seen along the wall in the right side of the picture. Honestly I don’t remember the entire history of the bench, other than it was Kelly’s first workbench and it is well over 100 years old. Still in action today.
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[Warren Mickley]

You could probably count on one hand the number of workbenches that are still in use today after 100 years of continuous use (even ones that didn't get continuous use are few and far between). The problem is determining what retired the bench before its 100th birthday. Did the hide glue crack and fail? Did it take so many dings and dents that after 80 resurfacings there was nothing left to resurface? Termites? Rot? Did someone have a bad winter and need more firewood?

I have seen hundreds of 19th Century workbenches. I have worked on some. I would be surprised if there were not a dozen or two in use in my township. Here is a picture of one of the Dominy benches. All three have seen over 150 years of continuous use, starting in the mid 18th century.
In the original shop:

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At Winterthur:

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[Christopher Charles]

Hi Chris,

I use hide glue for nearly everything, but I used yellow glue (titebond 2) when I glued the top for my Roubo. To minimize (mental) stress, I glued up the top by building up larger sections over three or four gluing sessions, which eliminated concerns about open time. No issues after a mere six years.

Good luck!

[Chris Fournier]

Is there any good reason "to " use hide glue on a bench? You can get PVAs with very generous open times from many manufacturers.

[Curt Putnam]

The one thing I've not yet seen mentioned is moisture. As in coffee or soda or beer spilled on the top. I do not think that such a (presumptively) brief exposure would destroy the glue bond, but then I have little familiarity with hide glue.

[Andrew Seemann]

The one thing I've not yet seen mentioned is moisture. As in coffee or soda or beer spilled on the top. I do not think that such a (presumptively) brief exposure would destroy the glue bond, but then I have little familiarity with hide glue.

A spill that ran off or was cleaned up probably would not do much. Leaving a wet rag on the glue joint overnight or some kind of constant exposure to water like a roof leak might do some damage though.

[J. Greg Jones]

Just as a FYI, when I discussed earlier about using hide glue in the workbench builds, its use was specific, and limited to, to the drawbored M&T joints. Everything else on the benches was glued with Titebond II. I can’t imagine any benefit to glueing up a workbench top with hide glue.