Veneer vs... wood

[andrew whicker]

Hi,

I'm not sure how to ask this, so maybe it won't come across very well. I'm designing an heirloom quality TV console type entertainment center (the low squat / long rectangular type). I'm designing the doors and sides to be 1" because I think it would be a rad design (vs the std 3/4").

My question is to veneer or not to veneer. I don't think I see any huge growth problems if I keep the joinery correct (basically Euro style cabinetry with inset doors... ie just a simple carcass with inset doors using Soss hinges for the doors). I'd rather use 'real wood' than veneer, but maybe that's because my experience limits me to think this way? Is there any reason to choose veneer over the lumber? I like the veneer idea ONLY because I can make the interior of the piece different than the exterior, which would be fun.

As a side note, I'm trying to move more towards furniture designer vs builder, so I'd need to find vendors for the majority of the work (including veneering).

[Mike Henderson]

The advantage of veneer is that you can do some very interesting designs on the panels that you can't do with solid wood. It's all a design choice.

Working with veneer is not difficult but does have a learning curve and you need some special equipment for pressing the veneer. Best is a vacuum pump and a vacuum bag.

Mike

[David Kumm]

I build doors with 1-1 1/16" doors and movement is no different than with 3/4". Dave

[johnny means]

What type of veneer are we talking about? Commercially available paper thin sheets or shop made ⅛" thick type stuff. How would you be gluing up your panels? Contact cement with paper backed veneer isn't going to add up to heirloom quality. "Solid" veneer provides the look and durability of solid wood without the drawbacks. It can also be a more economical use of unique or limited materials.

[Jim Becker]

From a design and aesthetics standpoint, veneer gives you the most flexibility and variety for your project and will also help with cost containment over all solid stock, depending on the species, figure, etc. There is NOTHING wrong with using veneer in any project where it will benefit said project...outside of, perhaps, some period pieces that are trying to represent true and authentic construction methods. For a cabinet like you describe, veneering quality sheet goods will also make for a very strong casework. Go for it!

[andrew whicker]

If the doors were solid lumber and the case was veneer, would it be noticeable? I guess it would take some good color matching. I want to use walnut and I know there can be purples, etc in some cuts that aren't in others. I think most veneer people use sheets from the same tree.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi,

I'm not sure how to ask this, so maybe it won't come across very well. I'm designing an heirloom quality TV console type entertainment center (the low squat / long rectangular type). I'm designing the doors and sides to be 1" because I think it would be a rad design (vs the std 3/4").

My question is to veneer or not to veneer. I don't think I see any huge growth problems if I keep the joinery correct (basically Euro style cabinetry with inset doors... ie just a simple carcass with inset doors using Soss hinges for the doors). I'd rather use 'real wood' than veneer, but maybe that's because my experience limits me to think this way? Is there any reason to choose veneer over the lumber? I like the veneer idea ONLY because I can make the interior of the piece different than the exterior, which would be fun.

As a side note, I'm trying to move more towards furniture designer vs builder, so I'd need to find vendors for the majority of the work (including veneering).

Andrew, my take is that it comes down to the design and joinery.

A simple "box" connected with butt joints will work as well with both materials, but I think that ply/MDF-veneer is traditional for this since mechanical joinery (biscuits, dominoes, dowels) is the go. If you planned to use dovetails of some form (through-, half-blind, or full blind/mitred) - not just for strength, but for aesthetics - then obviously it would be necessary to use solid wood.

Further, by "heirloom quality", I take you to mean a piece that could last a few generations. The simple fact is, however, that there is no TV console that will last more than 5 or 6 years since TV design (type and size) are in constant transition. We upgraded 3 years ago to a 55cm OLED - then SOTA - and already it is becoming dated.

I build exclusively in solid woods, excluding laminations for curves. The reason is that I find that veneered work ends up "clinical" and lacking warmth. I like to finish with hand tools, and even when I sand, there are slight undulations that soften the presentation. I build curves into work for this reason. While my pieces are generally my own designs, the recreations I have built of pieces made originally in veneered ply/MDF, and recreated now in solid wood, have quite a different feel to them.

Here is an example. The first is a photo of a piece requested to be built ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable9_html_m7fcab0c6.jpg

Here is the piece I built ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable9_html_43990ca8.jpg

I would also argue for hinges used traditionally, such as butt hinges, rather than Euro hinges or their variations. This is my personal bias since I associate the latter with kitchens and not fine furniture.

Regards from Berlin

Derek

[Steve Jenkins]

Another thing to think about is conservation. The amount of wood in a 4/4 board would make 50 leaves of veneer.Many highly figured and or exotic woods are much more readily and economically available in veneer rather than solid.

[Jim Becker]

If the doors were solid lumber and the case was veneer, would it be noticeable? I guess it would take some good color matching. I want to use walnut and I know there can be purples, etc in some cuts that aren't in others. I think most veneer people use sheets from the same tree.

That's part of the craftsmanship here...careful color and grain matching. You mention walnut...air dried and non-steamed KD walnut will have more color variations than steamed KD walnut. Your finishing schedule will also determine if there will be contrast or not between veneers and solid stock. Lots of variables here!

[Don Stephan]

There are some "looks" that are done with veneer, such as starbursts and multiple piece book and slip matches. Some highly figured grain patterns often are labelled unstable as solid boards, for example crotch figure, (my understanding is seasonal movement is more pronounced), but quite stable as veneer appropriately glued to a stable core. There are many woods available as veneer at Certainly Woods that I cannot purchase as lumber here in Cincinnati. But I would not want to try to veneer a raised panel. But an exposed edge of a veneered baltic birch plywood or MDF panel would not be very attractive.

My two cents there are many places to use veneer, many to use solid wood, and many places to use a combination.

[John Makar]

I've done a fair amount of small sized veneering. Something like a door would make me nervous. Veneer works best when it doesn't have hard contact with reality. Doors get slammed, kicked, bumped, scratched at by the dog. Even if the adhesive survives the surface layer is weak.

[Mike Henderson]

There are some "looks" that are done with veneer, such as starbursts and multiple piece book and slip matches. Some highly figured grain patterns often are labelled unstable as solid boards, for example crotch figure, (my understanding is seasonal movement is more pronounced), but quite stable as veneer appropriately glued to a stable core. There are many woods available as veneer at Certainly Woods that I cannot purchase as lumber here in Cincinnati. But I would not want to try to veneer a raised panel. But an exposed edge of a veneered baltic birch plywood or MDF panel would not be very attractive.

My two cents there are many places to use veneer, many to use solid wood, and many places to use a combination.

When using plywood, such as Baltic birch, you have to prepare the substrate first. What I do is put solid wood all around the plywood - I use the same wood as the veneer (or a matching wood). Get the panel flat (make the solid wood edging flat to the plywood) then veneer.

Here's an end table I did that has cheap wood for the substrate and mahogany edging applied before I put the veneer on. Same concept for plywood.

422993 422992 422994

Mike

[johnny means]

Andrew, my take is that it comes down to the design and joinery.

A simple "box" connected with butt joints will work as well with both materials, but I think that ply/MDF-veneer is traditional for this since mechanical joinery (biscuits, dominoes, dowels) is the go. If you planned to use dovetails of some form (through-, half-blind, or full blind/mitred) - not just for strength, but for aesthetics - then obviously it would be necessary to use solid wood.

Further, by "heirloom quality", I take you to mean a piece that could last a few generations. The simple fact is, however, that there is no TV console that will last more than 5 or 6 years since TV design (type and size) are in constant transition. We upgraded 3 years ago to a 55cm OLED - then SOTA - and already it is becoming dated.

I build exclusively in solid woods, excluding laminations for curves. The reason is that I find that veneered work ends up "clinical" and lacking warmth. I like to finish with hand tools, and even when I sand, there are slight undulations that soften the presentation. I build curves into work for this reason. While my pieces are generally my own designs, the recreations I have built of pieces made originally in veneered ply/MDF, and recreated now in solid wood, have quite a different feel to them.

Here is an example. The first is a photo of a piece requested to be built ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable9_html_m7fcab0c6.jpg

Here is the piece I built ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable9_html_43990ca8.jpg

I would also argue for hinges used traditionally, such as butt hinges, rather than Euro hinges or their variations. This is my personal bias since I associate the latter with kitchens and not fine furniture.

Regards from Berlin

Derek

That waterfall made my heart skip a beat.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Mike, I browsed through your website and watched a couple of your videos. You do beautiful work.

[andrew whicker]

Thanks, all good comments. I'm giving it some noodling.

[Jesse Brown]

Some designs are suited for plywood/veneer, and some are suited for timber. I'd take Derek's coffee table 10/10 times over the comp, and I agree that his version has a warmer feel to it, but it also looks like he used a reduced radius because of material constraints--at least that's my guess. The comp doesn't exactly demonstrate beautiful veneer or finish either :). I guess all I'm saying is that I personally value design and execution over material.

[John Makar]

Okay, I'm in the middle of a couple of books on design, and looking hard at proportions, golden rectangles, etc. I keep going back and forth between the two photos. It's hard to tell, different angles and light, etc., but the proportions on the first table seem different from the second. The second seems a good bit shorter, narrower, and blockier. The middle drawer on the first one seems longer. Is that really the case or is it just the photos?

I'm also coming up with an almost 1970s sense on the first one. That era produced some really poor examples of veneer work. The second one is definitely better executed, but possibly simply because I see it with eyes from a different world.

[Derek Cohen]

Okay, I'm in the middle of a couple of books on design, and looking hard at proportions, golden rectangles, etc. I keep going back and forth between the two photos. It's hard to tell, different angles and light, etc., but the proportions on the first table seem different from the second. The second seems a good bit shorter, narrower, and blockier. The middle drawer on the first one seems longer. Is that really the case or is it just the photos?

I'm also coming up with an almost 1970s sense on the first one. That era produced some really poor examples of veneer work. The second one is definitely better executed, but possibly simply because I see it with eyes from a different world.

John, don't that the comparison of the two coffee tables too literally. They are merely meant for illustration of the argument I was making (that the effect is different). It is not just that the ply/veneer builds can look clinical to me, but the joinery has preferred methods for each. Again, as an illustration, the waterfall in the coffee table could be done with either veneer or solid wood, but only the latter could include through dovetails ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable9_html_m5564ee87.jpg

... and the overall effect is quite different as a result ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable9_html_3d0ae63c.jpg

Further, veneer has edges. Not only do they eventually chip and/or peel away, but the grain direction on edges will tell the story that they are veneer. Some may not care, or recognise this, but I do.

Solid wood - which also enables hand-cut dovetails ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable9_html_3101c72a.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable9_html_m3df4d95f.jpg


Regards from Berlin

Derek

[John Makar]

I do restoration work occasionaly. The veneered/MDF (if '70s more likely particle board) pieces show up from time to time. They can usually be salvaged, and they fit a decor, but it's a retro look I have no nostalgia for. Your piece will hopefully never show up in a shop like mine. Ironically, it is easier to fix a cheaper piece, even improve it mechanically. Festool Dominos, MDF, Bessy clamps, my vacuum press, and bandsaw can manufacture cheap wood that is quite good, with today's adhesives and veneer selections magic happens. But, yeah, it still looks like veneer on particle board.