Shapton 30K, talk me out of it

[David Sloan]

After much deliberation, I bought a Shapton 16K glass stone a year ago and love it. Have used it for plane blades, chisels and knives. Today I sharpened 15 knives for our next door neighbor. Such fun! Got me wondering again about the super expensive 30K stone! Will it take me to the next level? Happy New Year, David

[Rob Luter]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/157/itsatrap.jpg

[J. Greg Jones]

I love my 16k Shapton also, but that’s as fine as I’m willing to go! If you get one, let us know what you think.

[Rob Luter]

Try a horsehide (aka horse butt) strop first. I use a strop following 12K abrasive film (I use film on glass). It’s a cheap alternative that works very well.

[ken hatch]

David,

Shinny isn't sharp. One of the most knowledgeable sharpeners on this Forum, David W (no longer here, my guess is he got tired of the BS) does most of his sharpening with the final stone a Washita and a strop. Here is a link to a video he did comparing different types of stones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAPRC2WSEco.


(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAPRC2WSEco)

[ken hatch]

Had to double post, the link wanted to continue with the following text.

It is your money, and I love to spend other people's money but it is a lot of bucks for little or no effect.

[Phil Mueller]

I’m curious, what do you use prior to the 16K?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Stropping is a good as a 30k stone. I would only use a 30k for straight razors. I use a 16k for those now and have not felt the need to go with the 30k, but I admit that I have also been curious. I would almost see a 30k as a “hard strop.” I would use bare horse butt (removed from the horse first :p) and only make two passes to remove the burr if I had a 30k stone.

[Andrew Hughes]

I have Shapton 30k and hardly ever use it. I think the last time was to sharpen a very expensive pair of scissors.
I got mine from Hap and it was a deal I couldn’t pass.
I don’t think it worth the full price plus it’s a little softer then the 15k.
Save your money for a nice chisel or something.
Good Luck

[David Sloan]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful comments. Phil, I have a series of Norton waterstones as well as several diamond plates. I usually go from the 8000 Norton stone to the Shapton. Ken, I watched the David W. video and it was quite fascinating. He seems like a very knowledgeable and interesting person. Thanks for the link and I would commend it to others. It is probably because my technique is not very good but I have never found stropping that helpful. Malcolm, that makes sense that the 30K stone is akin to a hard strop. I guess I am just curious as they sell 30K stones and some a lot more expensive than the Shapton 30K glass stone. Andrew, I could buy a very nice LV or LN plane for the money so your point is very well taken. I would say I have learned so much about sharpening from this forum. My tools are now all much sharper thanks to what I have learned. An added benefit is that I can now sharpen kitchen knives for friends and family. I have discovered that almost all kitchen and chefs knives that I am handed are incredibly dull and have never been properly sharpened. Thanks again, David

[Barney Markunas]

I would vote for you already being at the point of diminishing returns. If I were shopping, some interesting lumber or some other tool I want but don't really need would come way before a stone that fine and expensive. I absolutely cannot fathom using something like that on a neighbor's kitchen knives. Honestly, for many kitchen tasks I think I'd rather have a little bit of tooth than something polished on a 30K grit stone. Don't let perfection get in the way of good enough.

[Robert Engel]

I would also say there is a point of diminishing returns, and I think 16K is probably it, for me at least.

That said, I don't notice an appreciable difference past 8K.

For the money, the Norton waterstones are hard to beat.

[Jens Hoffmann]

What are you hoping to get out of the 30k stone that your 16k stone doesn't do for you?

[David Silverson]

For kitchen knives I use a 1 inch power belt sharpener from Lee Valley with a fine grit belt. It is very quick and leaves a fine tooth which works best for kitchen knives. It takes me about 40 seconds a knife. The belts last seemingly forever. I love that sharpener and use it for many tasks where perfect is not the aim.

[Jim Matthews]

Suehiro Cerax 20000 has the same allure to me.

It's a pointless vanity that I desperately want.
https://www.mtckitchen.com/suehiro-gokumyo-20000-knife-sharpening-stone/

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Suehiro Cerax 20000 has the same allure to me.

It's a pointless vanity that I desperately want.
https://www.mtckitchen.com/suehiro-gokumyo-20000-knife-sharpening-stone/

The Shapton 16k is 0.92 micron. The 30k is 0.48. The Suehiro 20k is 0.50. Sounds like a better deal at roughly $100 less than the Shapton 30k and only 0.02 difference in grit size. I have heard good things about the Suehiro Cerax stones. I would probably end up with that one if I felt the need to go beyond my Shapton 16k, which, by the way, I can’t even remember the last time I used because I haven’t been using straight razors lately, and that’s mostly what I use that stone for. For knives, I find the Chosera 10k is as fine as I ever need, and frequently I stop at the Shapton 8k, or Chosera 5k, depending on the knife (type of steel, intended use, bevel angle). Sushi knives and single bevel knives benefit from finer grits, as do high carbon versus stainless steel. I do sometimes sharpen carving chisels to 16k if I am doing some sort of detail work in tricky grain, but mostly I stop at 5k for woodworking tools other than chisels, and strop with green chromium oxide. Chisels I go to 8k or finer. This is generally speaking, as I play around with lots of different stones.

Just remember that beyond 8k, really the difference is minimal and much of the difference is lost after a few uses, but it is fun trying to get the finest edge possible. I fully admit to being at this level of “sharpaholic” and spending more than needed on stones just to see how sharp I can get stuff. I add this disclaimer to ensure I don’t suggest to the general public that they have to go “to infinity and beyond” for every sharpening.

[Jim Koepke]

The grit size on the Sueiro 20, elluded me. What did seem interesting is one of the claims made in the sales pitch:


Straight razor sharpeners will love this stone as, depending on individual skill, HHT4/5 are easily achieveable without stropping.

That is definitely a stone for straight razor users more than for woodworking. HHT is the Hanging Hair Test method of testing for sharpness. It is beyond the testing of sharpness by arm hair shaving, end grain shaving or paper cutting. It is the next level of sharpness.

Resistance isn't always futile.

jtk

[Ray Newman]

To satisfy my curiosity, I looked at the HC and HR series Shapton 30K stone on the Sharpening Supplies site.That stone is on sale for US $324.00, normally $360.00. At those prices, I would not need to be talked out of buying one. With my 73 year old clumsy hands, I would be sure to drop it! https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Water-Stones-C4.aspx

[Tom M King]

If you want to try the sub micron surface, without spending a lot of money, the next time you order something from Lee Valley, order a sheet of the .5 micron, and .1 micron Diamond Lapping film. I did, and had a spare Granite Surface Plate for when Woodcraft used to sell them, on sale, for 25 bucks. I liked it so much, that I have kept it on the drainboard of my sharpening sink, for several years now. https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/sheets-and-belts/68943-diamond-lapping-film

It is fragile though, to a sharp edge, so you can only back up with the cutting edge. It lasts a Long time, if you remember to only go backwards. I doubt mine has been changed any more frequently than once a year, and probably less than that. Once you take an already sharp edge to it, it takes a very few strokes, so it doesn't suffer much wear from each use.

To me, having an edge "too sharp", is like having a girlfriend that is too good looking. Neither is a reality in my opinion. Since my sharpening setup is already sitting out, ready to go, there is almost no extra work involved to take it all the way. The sharper it is to start with, the longer you have before it needs honing again, and the extra time in use is always way longer than the extra 10 or 15 seconds it takes, but that's with my setup. If you have to drag sharpening stuff out every time you use it, the number of stones will make more of a difference.

[David Bassett]

... and had a spare Granite Surface Plate for when Woodcraft used to sell them, on sale, for 25 bucks. ...

An alternative to a granite plate is float glass. If you can't score some scrap free, LV has a "Glass Lapping Plate" for $15 intended for use with the lapping film they stock.

[Jim Matthews]

An experiment in progress...Richlite fingerboard with Diamond paste. For $20, it's an interesting substrate.

I had a stash of diamond paste in three "flavors" already. Richlite is just compressed paper.

So far, it's easy enough to handle but I can't say the results are appreciably different than two stones and a strop.

https://richlite.com/products/guitar-fretboard-blank-black-diamond

[Vincent Tai]

I have the Shapton 30k. Got it for very cheap from a kind woodworker years ago. It rarely gets used, I prefer ending on a sigma 13k for synthetic water stones, a Jnat, or a nice oilstone. If you are buying the Shapton 30k full price; don't. It doesn't feel very nice, good bit of stiction, and Shaptons are hard on most diamond plates and my elbows when flattening.

[David Sloan]

I would vote for you already being at the point of diminishing returns. If I were shopping, some interesting lumber or some other tool I want but don't really need would come way before a stone that fine and expensive. I absolutely cannot fathom using something like that on a neighbor's kitchen knives. Honestly, for many kitchen tasks I think I'd rather have a little bit of tooth than something polished on a 30K grit stone. Don't let perfection get in the way of good enough.

There are kitchen knives and there are kitchen knives. My wife has several really good non stainless steel Japanese knives that are now beautifully sharp. You can spend hundreds of dollars even thousands on a single sushi knife. Not sure how happy a Japanese Sushi chef would be with your technique.

[Frederick Skelly]

I've also been interested in the 16k stone (which you already have) and the 30k you're considering. As I've read this thread, it sounds like a Shapton 30k is 0.49 microns. Lee Valley claims their green honing compound is about that size ("The average size of scratch pattern it leaves behind is 0.5 microns.")
Link (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/compounds-and-pastes/32984-veritas-honing-compound)

I use the LV compound on a piece of hard leather mounted to a block of wood. Is honing this way actually comparable to the 30k stone as it seems, or is there some difference I havent figured out? I'm not trying to be a wiseguy or anything - just trying to learn from you all.

Thank you.
Fred

[Andrew Hughes]

I've also been interested in the 16k stone (which you already have) and the 30k you're considering. As I've read this thread, it sounds like a Shapton 30k is 0.49 microns. Lee Valley claims their green honing compound is about that size ("The average size of scratch pattern it leaves behind is 0.5 microns.")
Link (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/compounds-and-pastes/32984-veritas-honing-compound)

I use the LV compound on a piece of hard leather mounted to a block of wood. Is honing this way actually comparable to the 30k stone as it seems, or is there some difference I havent figured out? I'm not trying to be a wiseguy or anything - just trying to learn from you all.

Thank you.
Fred

Fred I don’t find them to be comparable. Since stropping rounds over the edge slightly each time we do it. The Shapton 30 k doesn’t. But it also doesn’t cut nearly as fast as the 16k.
I would say it is a good polishing stone if you had the right steel to see the difference.

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred I don’t find them to be comparable. Since stropping rounds over the edge slightly each time we do it. The Shapton 30 k doesn’t. But it also doesn’t cut nearly as fast as the 16k.
I would say it is a good polishing stone if you had the right steel to see the difference.

Thanks AJ!

[Tom M King]

Stropping on a pliable surface (leather) works for those sharpening by hand because the already sharp edge doesn't have to be presented at just the perfect angle. It will, of course, also round over the edge, to some degree. If one uses a guide, there is no reason to use a pliable substrate, but you can still use the same sub-micron grit range with a flat hard backing, and not worry about dubbing the edge. Either is really just a further refinement of an already sharp edge.

[Jim Koepke]

I would vote for you already being at the point of diminishing returns. If I were shopping, some interesting lumber or some other tool I want but don't really need would come way before a stone that fine and expensive. I absolutely cannot fathom using something like that on a neighbor's kitchen knives. Honestly, for many kitchen tasks I think I'd rather have a little bit of tooth than something polished on a 30K grit stone. Don't let perfection get in the way of good enough.


There are kitchen knives and there are kitchen knives. My wife has several really good non stainless steel Japanese knives that are now beautifully sharp. You can spend hundreds of dollars even thousands on a single sushi knife. Not sure how happy a Japanese Sushi chef would be with your technique.

David, You did mention sharpening knives for a neighbor in your original post. You did not mention sharpening speciality knives for a discerning wife.

A bit of tooth on a knife may be useful for some tasks. For other tasks the 'tooth' can become a snagging point in delicate slicing.

Candy, my wife, used to always slice tomatoes with a serrated knife. They came out a mess. For me, a test of sharpness of a kitchen knife is how thin it can slice a tomato without 'sawing' the tomato. Now, Candy has me slice the tomatoes when we have burgers or other foods that need sliced tomatoes.

When the wife will easily agree that having super sharp kitchen knives is a good thing, why are you asking a bunch of knuckle dragging Neanderthals about getting the next step in super sharp?

If you can afford it, my suggestion would now be to go for it.

BTW, let your wife know when you sharpen the knives. One time when Candy wasn't notified the first time she used a knife its sharpness gave her a fright. That may be what "Scary Sharp" is all about.

jtk

[Barney Markunas]

To the OP... my neighbors aren't sushi chefs - they don't own yanagibas made by the descendants of swordsmiths; much more likely that they are folks that have Cutcos rattling around in a drawer or a block of Henckels that they received as a wedding present decades ago. If my neighbors were sushi chefs, it is very unlikely they would come to me for sharpening help - they'd do it themselves or take their babies to a specialist sharpener.

I could easily be wrong but I'll stick with my contention that it is a lot of money to spend for what is likely to be a miniscule improvement in the end result. I'd feel differently if you were sharpening microtome blades, but for not if you are working on chisels and kitchen knives. My dad used to tell me that most fishing lures were really designed to catch fisherman more than fish. I think a 30K stone is probably the sharpening equivalent. Enjoy your purchase regardless of what you decide.

[David Sloan]

Thanks again everyone for your input. To close the loop, you have talked me out of buying the 30K stone (at least for now anyway). Instead, I am using my Christmas gift money to buy a Lie Nielsen #164 low angle smooth plane. It's considerably cheaper and I suspect will be more useful!

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

Thanks again everyone for your input. To close the loop, you have talked me out of buying the 30K stone (at least for now anyway). Instead, I am using my Christmas gift money to buy a Lie Nielsen #164 low angle smooth plane. It's considerably cheaper and I suspect will be more useful!

When I read threads like this I cannot help but think that the sharpness gets at the level of a razor. Then I give thought to how many shavings on timber it will take before you would be unable to shave the hair on your arm, 2, 3, 5, 10? For me a quick grind on the Tormek, a few strokes on a Shapton 4000 and it is sharp enough to continue my work. It takes me perhaps less than one minute to sharpen.

Spending a money on a smoothing plane is imho a far better investment.

[Rob Luter]

Thanks again everyone for your input. To close the loop, you have talked me out of buying the 30K stone (at least for now anyway). Instead, I am using my Christmas gift money to buy a Lie Nielsen #164 low angle smooth plane. It's considerably cheaper and I suspect will be more useful!

This calls for a four page thread discussing the merits of bevel up smoothers. :D

[Will Blick]

I have owned the Shapton 30K stone for a long time, prob. 9 years.

What I have learned from sharpening is....no blanket answers. too many variables.
what we need to consider is, how sharp do you need.... and how sharp of an edge can the metal hold? Not all metal created the same.

I use my stones mostly for plane blades. For that, the 30K stone is a luxury for sure. For A2, I would say, it works, BUT, A2 can NOT hold that sharp of an edge for long... a handful of strokes, and its back to 16K sharpness. So, not so great.

However, with PMV11, this is not true. PMV11 holds the 30K edge MUCH longer and the dull to 16K is gradual. So I use it all the time with my PMV11 blades, and love it....

I also noticed, that not all stones work ideally with all metals. For example, Shapton Prof. series stones, not so great with A2 and PMV11. But the HR series is superb, the metal melts like butter, a marriage made in heaven.

I agree with other posters as well, stropping rounds over the edge, not acceptable IMO for plane blades.

NOw, for kitchen knives, I think 30K is overkill. NOt many blades can benefit from level of sharpening, and almost none I tried can hold it. A few strokes on a wood board, and any benefts would be negated.

[David Sloan]

This calls for a four page thread discussing the merits of bevel up smoothers. :D

I just might start another thread Rob! Received the LN 164 yesterday. Took it apart, cleaned it, waxed it and honed a secondary bevel (up to 16 K on my Shapton not 30K!) What a beautiful plane!

424027

[Eric Danstrom]

I love my BU planes with A2 blades! I sharpen A2 blades with DMT plates and don't care about rouge diamonds! With a MKII guide no less! Did I mention windex?

[Ray Newman]

David Sloan: your LN #164. The wood grain is really eye catching! The grain caught my eye immediately. Special order/request wood or did you just "luck out"??

[David Sloan]

David Sloan: your LN #164. The wood grain is really eye catching! The grain caught my eye immediately. Special order/request wood or did you just "luck out"??
Just lucked out Ray. Nicer than the knobs and handles I made for the three other planes shown.424071

[Rob Luter]

I just might start another thread Rob! Received the LN 164 yesterday. Took it apart, cleaned it, waxed it and honed a secondary bevel (up to 16 K on my Shapton not 30K!) What a beautiful plane!

424027

Very nice! Have you used it yet? I've not seen a cutter adjustment quite like that before. Does it work well?

[David Sloan]

Very nice! Have you used it yet? I've not seen a cutter adjustment quite like that before. Does it work well?
Rob, I have and love it. I was wondering about the adjustment wheel before I bought it because it is so unusual. I t works nicely though. The plane fits nicely in my hands and has a nice weight.

[Jim Koepke]

Nice looking plane David.

The #164 is likely one Lie-Nielsen plane costing less than its Stanley original.

jtk