"Live edge lumber" musings

[Jon Grider]

First, I do not wish to offend anyone, but I very well may and I apologize in advance if you are offended by my post.

First rant is that I'm way over the "live edge furniture" movement. It floods the on line and Etsy/Pinterest type market and much of it imo cheapens the artistic, functional, and intrinsic value of George Nakashima's work. It seems anyone with four pipe flanges,caps, 3/4" pipe sections and a slab of "live edge" wood views themselves as a creative genius for slapping together a hall table. Yes, I do love the beauty of a slab of figured or even character grade wood and in Georges view, the piece of wood should tell you what it wants to be; that doesn't let the craftsman off the hook as far as designing and building a base or other type component worthy of displaying that slab.

I buy much of my lumber from area small mill operators and a local on line auction which brings up my second and admittedly selfish rant. For me, the demand for "live edge" lumber has created price increases, lowered the quality, and generally made it tougher to find lumber that has the wane and bark removed. There are bidding wars on "live edge" full of knots, splits, checks, and insects that imo is most suitable for the fireplace. Around here, the lumber that is SLR has a large premium on a service that was for the most part standard a few years ago.

Apparently there must be a market for this rustic furniture as there is so much of it out there. I just wish this fad would pass. Thanks for listening.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Interesting, and I agree. The pipe flanges kill me...

My lumber supplier (a 1-man operation who specializes in high-quality slabs) had a good run with live edge slabs, but recently told me that he thinks this "fad" is almost over and is re-tooling in expectation of a shift to something else.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Totally agree. I have been asked to do a live edge table and may do so, but I’m not keen on it. My partner at the shop does them, and in fact I just left there and he was building a slab table that was quite beautiful, but it is hard to decorate around one in the home.

I am amazed that a slab actually sells for more than finished lumber. That is what has happened to the market. Also, while we are ranting, pen blanks have destroyed the chance to get decent sized exotic woods at any sort of reasonable price.

[Andrew Hughes]

I also think the live edge Bs has gone too far.
It’s become comical here’s a example of a live edge river table.:eek:
I really do not make fun of others work I think this was built for fun.:)

[Jim Becker]

No matter what the build style is, someone can find a way to "cheapen it". :) It's the "Biggie Mart" world we live in. Sadly.

I'm in no way tired of live edge and often do pieces this way, but I like "well executed" over everything. After all, I live about ten minutes from the Nakashima compound and George is one of my "idols" when it comes to woodworking design and philosophy. (and it is a compound!) What I think that so many forget is that furniture design (or design of anything for that matter) is more than just the materials and hardware. When folks don't think the whole thing through, what comes out of it can often be ordinary rather than extraordinary. Sometimes that's just a little thing and sometimes it's a bunch of big things.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I sell a fair amount of live edge as well as squared lumber from our little sawmill here. From my perspective I get a lot more value cutting a crotch log into slices and selling it as live edge than I would making it into firewood, so that's what I do. Some are so curved or crooked that if I edged them I would have very little left. Some customers make them into tables, some cut them up into shorter lengths and use them for chair seats, or whatever. I have never seen a picture of a river table that I liked, and doubt that I ever will, but I listen politely to customers when they come to buy lumber and tell me about them. i charge $1-$1.50 per board foot for hardwood lumber depending on species, and when I sell live edge I don't charge for the wane, just for the area of the smaller face. I see people trying to sell single "slabs" (what I would call flitches, but anyway) for hundreds of dollars and I wonder if they sell any. It's a weird market for sure.
Zach

[Ron Citerone]

While I have come to appreciate a nice live edge table, I feel it is overdone, over rated and the slabs are way overpriced.

[John K Jordan]

What's this "live edge". All the edges are dead by the time we get to them. Maybe "natural edge"?
Edges with bark are very popular in woodturning.

Tis is my unatural edge bowl - I left the chain saw marks on the rim.

422706

I have never understood the attraction of "river" tables

JKJ

[jack duren]

We paid almost a $1000 for live edges for tables. The width has a lot to do with it. You want a minimum 36" table with 12/4 top it's not cheap.

Personally I don't care for live edge. In the 80's nobody cared for it and I still don't today. I'll still continue
to make conference tables,etc for the ones that can pay for it.

Epoxy and live edge and an Internet has made everybody a genius. The internet says so....

[Darcy Warner]

At least with pallet stuff, I can still turn it back into something useful, like a pallet.

[Ron Citerone]

At least with pallet stuff, I can still turn it back into something useful, like a pallet.

Gotta love that response! Lol

[Phil Mueller]

When visiting Seattle a fews years ago, I stopped into the Northwest Woodworkers Gallery...a wood craft cooperative. Many very nice pieces on display. Right next door was a slab table store. I mentioned the slab store to someone at the Gallery and the reply was something like...”they are not really craftsmen...take a big slab, level it, and stick some legs on it...maybe add a bowtie or two”. A little harsh maybe, but I see his point.

[Stan Calow]

I blame Andy Rooney and his desk on 60 Minutes. It looks cool in the right environment, but overdone for typical suburban home. But as long as there's a market for it. . . .

[johnny means]

I wrote a haiku about it.

Not every edge
Deserves to be a live edge
Most are just kindling

[Jon Grider]

I wrote a haiku about it.

Not every edge
Deserves to be a live edge
Most are just kindling
:) Great haiku Johnny! It is to fine creative writing what live edge is to fine woodworking. Thanks for the grin.

[Tom Dixon]

If I could "like" this thread at a value of a million it would not be enough. Most of the live edge and river table things I see leave me totally cold and have nothing to do with why I love woodworking. Fine design and beautiful joinery. This is not to say that I don't occasionally see someone use a slab with fine woodworking to support it, but most everything I see from the world of slabs is dreck. I will not be sad to see it go away the sooner the better. HOWEVER.... I have noticed that the slab craze has introduced a new generation to working wood and that is a good thing.

[Pat Barry]

I think you can find similar groups of people that are sick of Arts and Crafts, Greene and Greene, Chippendale, Shaker, Rustic, Gothic, or what have you. Its OK to rant of course but that just isn't very productive. I think the appeal of the live edge is the naturalness and the uniqueness considering the large amount of pressboard / Ikea type furniture out there.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Not a big fan of live edge or river tables, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

[johnny means]

On a positive note, in ten years, when all these walnut river tables hit the curb, it's going to be a gold mine of easily recycled raw material.

[John TenEyck]

And don't forget, if you have a live edge table you MUST have a sliding barn door to go with it. I have nothing against either, and I'm happy to make either if someone is paying me, but I don't want either in my house. Remember avocado colored appliances? This too shall pass.

John

[William Hodge]

The popularity of live edge furniture will probably have a slower arc than the popularity of leisure suits. Live edge stuff will probably last longer, because not many people go out in public wearing it. I still have a house with avocado green Formica kitchen counters.

[Derek Cohen]

Nakashima did a whole lot more than market slabs as furniture. Unfortunately, there are too many who do not get this. The market is flooded with either slabs that pass for furniture, or furniture that displays highly figured wood without much else to define it.

What is absent is the understanding that there needs to be a sympathetic union of timber and design, along with the craftsmanship to bring this to fruition. This is not really surprising since many woodworkers are seeking to express their inner Nakashima, but are not Nakashima.

Many are also not trained or knowledgeable about furniture construction, traditional joinery, or how the achieve this. Few have an eye, whether trained or practiced, about form and balance. It is easy today to build a table or bench using metal fasteners for simple butt joints, and call it good. I particular dislike River tables, which are an extension of this.

One of the lessons I have learned since building variations of mid-century designs in the past few years is that these designs can be extremely complicated if attention is given to traditional joinery and the intent to create something that will endure for a few centuries. And yet, side-by-side with a factory mass produced piece, the average person could not tell the difference, or care. As an amateur, I have the luxury of building what I want and how I want. That makes it possible for me to sound off and be a snob. :)

on a train to Berlin ...

Derek

[John K Jordan]

...
Many are also not trained or knowledgeable about furniture construction, traditional joinery, or how the achieve this. Few have an eye, whether trained or practiced, about form and balance. It is easy today to build a table or bench using metal fasteners for simple butt joints, and call it good. I particular dislike River tables, which are an extension of this.


A friend had a "nice big" dining room table custom made. With solid ends fastened to thick edge-glued planks with no thought given to wood movement. From the looks of it the wood wasn't even quite dry when it was built. You can imagine how it looks now, a few years later. To pay money good for that...

On the other hand, I applaud people with little knowledge creating things for their own use - at least they are inventing and doing something with their hands instead of making another trip to Ikea or [gasp] Walmart.

JKJ

[Frederick Skelly]

I don't care much for live edge furniture. While I admire and aspire to George Nakashima's level of craftsmanship, I don't enjoy looking at much of his work. I'm sorry guys, I just don't.YMMV.

[Mark Gibney]

I've made a fair few live edge tables, and I've always worked hard to design a base that presents the top. Years ago a furniture designer told me a chair should feel welcoming to you, almost as if the back is like a pair of arms raised in welcome.
I use that when I fumble around trying to get a feel for what sort of a base might work with a table top.

The hairpin leg or welded steel bases on a live edge slab make me angry. These people put zero effort into the work, and it shows.

My wife keeps telling me the live edge fad is over, I think that's because she hopes I'll stop ranting about the ugly stuff on Etsy.

[Ira Matheny]

I, too, agree 'Live Edge' is a bit overdone. But it sure beat the gross 'particle' board junk.

[Erik Loza]

One of my commercial shops, who does slab-type tables (among other architectural millwork)...

https://www.instagram.com/4theditiondesign/

What I see is two distinct levels of offering: Very high-end furniture makers who can do actual steel fab and have dedicated finishing rooms, then the rest of us (myself included), who get it done with a track saw, R/O sander, and like to play with pretty colors. This all reminds me of the bowl-turning craze of the 2005's: All of a sudden, everyone was a turner and there were little bowls with sparkly veins for sale everywhere. I agree with Tom Dixon: It may not be your jam but it gets into ww'ing, which is a positive thing.

Erik

[Frederick Skelly]

Years ago a furniture designer told me a chair should feel welcoming to you, almost as if the back is like a pair of arms raised in welcome.

Well said Mark.

[Gordon Stump]

Well, I have been waiting for a post like this! I am not totally against the live edge movement. It has provided established small and large operation sawmills an opportunity to make money from what was essentially firewood. If you are interested in the sustainability of American hardwood furniture then that is a positive. Has it created a cottage industry for folks who buy a portable sawmill an sell "kiln dried" slabs out their back yards. Wait-a-minute!! Kiln Dried 12/4 slabs? I doubt it! Have you priced getting 12/4 slabs kiln dried lately.

My regular sawmill/kiln drying guy was backed up. He charges from $.80-$1.50 a bd ft for sawing and drying. So I went looking for a kiln drying service. If they would even consider taking my 4/4 and 5/4 rough cut walnut they wanted from $3-$4 a board foot. I was shocked but I figured they did not want some good-old-boy to slab his front yard oak tree and sell it for $450 a slab without paying the piper. I can be petty!

A few years ago I participated in a craft walk in my little town. I made Arts and Craft style clocks and other small furniture quality items. My son begged me to offer some small live edge shelves from some 5/8" kiln dried quality walnut I had with one edge with bark. Yup, they sold right away. Folks wanted to special order bigger sizes. Given the price of walnut, this was not a cost effective business proposition. I did not sell a single clock. So woodworking craftsmanship verses live edge popularity was a fail for me.

422764422765

Live edge will be the shag carpet of the future. Get that out of my house. (if you can lift it)


.

[Randy Heinemann]

I'm curious why this topic generated so much reaction and discussion? I would completely agree that there are tables out there that are needlessly expensive just because they have a live (natural) edge top. Plus, the slabs themselves are expensive and, sometimes, require a lot of work; maybe more than a standard table top made from boards. However, there are woodworkers out there at all levels and, if some feel a sense of accomplishment from installing a live edge top on pipe or metal legs (even purchased from another source), why is that bad? If they design something that maybe isn't exactly "fine furniture" (which covers a lot of ground) with beginner techniques, why is that bad? They are doing something that they must enjoy or making something for a family member or . . . I have always believed that we should make what makes us feel happy and satisfied. I am making my first live edge table and, after all the work prepping the top and designing a unique wood base for it, I'm guessing it will be my last slab table. I still think I learned a lot and, while it may not turn out to be my best work in the end, it still gives me satisfaction and makes me happy as I move through the design and build process. I guarantee it won't win any prizes and maybe would make others wonder what I was thinking when I designed it, but it's woodworking and woodworking always makes me happy and satisfied with life.

[Bill Carey]

I don't care much for live edge furniture. While I admire and aspire to George Nakashima's level of craftsmanship, I don't enjoy looking at much of his work. I'm sorry guys, I just don't.YMMV.


You are not alone Frederick. I just spent a while on the Nakashima web site, and came away thinking they are at least as good at marketing as they are at woodworking. I was not moved by the conoid desk - it made me think of a poor game of the woodworking version of Mr. Potato Head. IMHO. I also spent a bit of time looking for a pic of a live edge table I really liked. No luck. And the river stuff - not for me.

On the other hand, I'll be very sorry if the supply of slabs and flitches dries up. I buy a lot of my lumber in slabs because I see figure and character in some that I want to use. Almost all slabs have been resawn to capture that figure for use in a table, box, desk, lamp, clock, etc. Only one slab has ever left the shop intact and that was because the boss wanted a live edge coffee table that had something referencing the breast cancer ribbon. And she always gets what she wants.

But if someone is putting bread on the table making live edge tables, etc, more power to them. Pipe flanges, wire legs, stumps for a bases, whatever. If there is a market for it - and there surely is - why not if it will feed the family.

422773

[mike stenson]

I did not sell single clock. So woodworking craftsmanship verses live edge popularity was a fail for me.


It's been more than a decade since I've had a stand-alone clock in my house. I suspect I'm not alone, and this would highly affect marketability. Shelves, well.. we always need those.

I'll just agree, otherwise, with what Derek's said. He's stated it as well, likely better, than I could. The timing of this thread is interesting though, as I'm starting to sketch a mid-century credenza for our stereo and other entertainment electronics. Because of this, I've been looking at a lot of Nakashimas designs again, most of them without a live edge.

[John K Jordan]

It's been more than a decade since I've had a stand-alone clock in my house. I suspect I'm not alone, and this would highly affect marketability. Shelves, well.. we always need those.

Some people still like clocks. I can think of over a dozen in my house, shop, and barn. But only a few are in high quality cases, wood or metal.

[Cristobal Figueroa]

This entire thread is fascinating to me because you see the same reaction to trendy fads in all creative endeavors. I apologize for the lengthy diatribe but I felt compelled to share my two cents. I taught AP Art and Design and AP Photography and what was trendy in each discipline was always an important topic of discussion. At the end of the year, these students have their portfolios evaluated by a panel of experts and that score decides if they get college credit for the class. I quickly learned that students who submitted portfolios with work that followed trends often scored higher than work of similar strength that was much more original. It was clear that even “subject experts” were not immune to draw of what was trendy.

The rise of social media has accelerated this process immensely; things go from being novel and cool, to massively popular, to passé very quickly. With this being said, high quality work and true talent supersede trendiness. Just as the best work does not rely on a trend for its appeal or strength; it cannot be dismissed if it happens to fall into the trendy category.

Chile, where I am from originally has areas and groups of people that have relied on rugged, rustic furniture often made from slabs with basic hand tools (often of low quality at that) for at least 100 years. This has occurred not because of a trend but is the result of a lack of heavy machines, and an abundance of high quality lumber. The style is undeniably primitive but very functional. What is interesting to me is how easy it is to identify pieces made by the craftsmen who clearly “get it.” Despite being similar in style their work is more refined, with greater attention to detail, and an inherent understanding of good design.

I think the same holds true with live edge furniture, river tables, pipe furniture, factory cart tables, fancy chopping boards, the distressed look etc. I have seen some stunning pieces, in addition to pieces that were only stunning in how bad they looked. We all have different aesthetic tastes, differing levels of talent and ability and differing access to tools and materials. Furthermore we undeniably influenced by those with whom we choose to associate. Groupthink and opinion echo chambers don’t really serve anybody. Just as it is no surprise when I see similar threads on internet photography enthusiast forums being dismissive of: low-fi aesthetic, selective coloring in BW, extreme HDR, etc; I am not surprised that a thread on SMC espousing a slightly smug dismissal of the live edge trend camouflaged as “musings” has mostly become a pile-on of homogenous opinions.
Yes there are some legitimate cons of the current fad, many of which were stated in previous posts, but anything that brings attention to our shared hobby/calling/profession and encourages people be creative, and make something for themselves or seek out one of us to make it for them can’t be all bad. Instead of merely focusing on the negative I believe we would be better served by analyzing what if anything can be learned from the rise in such trends.

I just wanted to add that posts like Jim Beckers are exactly what I mean by thoughtful analysis as opposed to dismissal.

[Prashun Patel]

Deriding live edge as a category is about as ridiculous as loving it as a category.

There is good and bad design in just about everything.

The proliferation of bad or lazy design is not unique to live edge furniture.

I would argue that good live edge furniture is hard to make because it’s so hard to hide in details. So much of what’s out there feels thrown together. But that doesn’t make the whole class of it bad.

[Jon Grider]

This entire thread is fascinating to me because you see the same reaction to trendy fads in all creative endeavors. I apologize for the lengthy diatribe but I felt compelled to share my two cents. I taught AP Art and Design and AP Photography and what was trendy in each discipline was always an important topic of discussion. At the end of the year, these students have their portfolios evaluated by a panel of experts and that score decides if they get college credit for the class. I quickly learned that students who submitted portfolios with work that followed trends often scored higher than work of similar strength that was much more original. It was clear that even “subject experts” were not immune to draw of what was trendy.

The rise of social media has accelerated this process immensely; things go from being novel and cool, to massively popular, to passé very quickly. With this being said, high quality work and true talent supersede trendiness. Just as the best work does not rely on a trend for its appeal or strength; it cannot be dismissed if it happens to fall into the trendy category.

Chile, where I am from originally has areas and groups of people that have relied on rugged, rustic furniture often made from slabs with basic hand tools (often of low quality at that) for at least 100 years. This has occurred not because of a trend but is the result of a lack of heavy machines, and an abundance of high quality lumber. The style is undeniably primitive but very functional. What is interesting to me is how easy it is to identify pieces made by the craftsmen who clearly “get it.” Despite being similar in style their work is more refined, with greater attention to detail, and an inherent understanding of good design.

I think the same holds true with live edge furniture, river tables, pipe furniture, factory cart tables, fancy chopping boards, the distressed look etc. I have seen some stunning pieces, in addition to pieces that were only stunning in how bad they looked. We all have different aesthetic tastes, differing levels of talent and ability and differing access to tools and materials. Furthermore we undeniably influenced by those with whom we choose to associate. Groupthink and opinion echo chambers don’t really serve anybody. Just as it is no surprise when I see similar threads on internet photography enthusiast forums being dismissive of: low-fi aesthetic, selective coloring in BW, extreme HDR, etc; I am not surprised that a thread on SMC espousing a slightly smug dismissal of the live edge trend camouflaged as “musings” has mostly become a pile-on of homogenous opinions.
Yes there are some legitimate cons of the current fad, many of which were stated in previous posts, but anything that brings attention to our shared hobby/calling/profession and encourages people be creative, and make something for themselves or seek out one of us to make it for them can’t be all bad. Instead of merely focusing on the negative I believe we would be better served by analyzing what if anything can be learned from the rise in such trends.

I just wanted to add that posts like Jim Beckers are exactly what I mean by thoughtful analysis as opposed to dismissal.
Cristobal,

I started this thread just to voice my opinion, nothing more, nothing less and I maintain my position that I think that much of L.E. movements' growth has cheapened George Nakashima's creative work in the same way as those who put their cell phone in B&W mode and take a selfie at the base of Half Dome and think of themselves to be a photographer like Adams or Weston. I would think that a former instructor of design, art, and photography would be somewhat alarmed at the sacrifice of skill and knowledge at the altar of the creativity of the masses. I don't hate all live edge. I like some of Nakashima's original pieces and there are some craftsman today, including members on this forum that have produced L.E. pieces that are thoughtfully and skillfully done. It is not a style I'm drawn to anymore though and if I sound smug for saying so, so be it but as I said my intentions were not to offend.

I would also like you to share what you personally have learned if anything by analyzing the rise in such trends.

I would also like you to know I feel honored by drawing out from you your first post after your membership of 10 years on this forum. Welcome to SMC

[Jon Grider]

Deriding live edge as a category is about as ridiculous as loving it as a category.

There is good and bad design in just about everything.

We can hate the proliferation of bad or lazy design but that’s not unique to live edge furniture. I would argue that GOOD live edge furtnitue is very hard to make because it’s so hard to hide in details. This is why nakashima was so good. If you don’t get it, I humbly suggest studying the good stuff more before deriding it all as a class.

Not sure if this was directed at me as the OP or not but I'll try to clarify my position anyway. One of the first books to draw me into Woodworking was "Soul of the Tree" I liked Nakashima so much that I read his materials over and over. I did like live edge but no longer do I care for it partly due to the proliferation of poorly created interpretations of George's work and partly just because my tastes have changed. I also liked Chippendale and Hepplewhite and though I still admire the skill of those early fine craftsmen and their work, the mass produced imitations last century had the effect of me getting tired of that style. And yes I do know there are some fine craftsman much better than myself still producing that style. I do think that because of the ease of making a poorly crafted live edge piece more folks make it. Even massed produced Hepplewhite an Chippendale required some skill if you were a moulder, saw, or duplicator lathe operator.

[Frederick Skelly]

Just as it is no surprise when I see similar threads on internet photography enthusiast forums being dismissive of: low-fi aesthetic, selective coloring in BW, extreme HDR, etc; I am not surprised that a thread on SMC espousing a slightly smug dismissal of the live edge trend camouflaged as “musings” has mostly become a pile-on of homogenous opinions. .

Rant ON.
I couldn't care less about what is artistic or trendy: if it is ugly, I don't like it. I don't need "experts" to tell me what is ugly or what is unappealing - only my 2 eyes. There's no "group think" or "smugness" involved, no "pile on" or "homogeneous opinions". Just my own eyes. I personally find most live edge unappealing. Likewise, I personally find Picasso's painting ugly.

Can new painters learn about color and texture from Picasso's butt-ugly work? Yes, even my untrained eye can do so. But I sure hope they don't have to copy it to pass an art course. And if a school requires students to emulate a stupid or ugly trend to get college credit, then the "art" department has FAILED - they are evaluating against the wrong criteria.
Rant OFF.

YMMV.

Fred Skelly

[Jim Becker]

What's really important here is that this is a subjective and individual thing as is the concept of "ugly". Fortunately, we have SO many choices in the world!

[Doug Dawson]

Rant ON.
I couldn't care less about what is artistic or trendy: if it is ugly, I don't like it. I don't need "experts" to tell me what is ugly or what is unappealing - only my 2 eyes. There's no "group think" or "smugness" involved, no "pile on" or "homogeneous opinions". Just my own eyes. I personally find most live edge unappealing. Likewise, I personally find Picasso's painting ugly.


Is this an argument against Picasso, or an argument against medical malpractice?

[Zachary Hoyt]

I like live edge and Adirondack styles, if they're well thought out (in my subjective opinion) and well executed. I am not so fond of epoxy and such things for furniture, though I do like it for canoe building, to keep the water on the outside. I know a lot of people like things that I think are ugly, and I like things that probably many other people find ugly too.
Zach

[Cristobal Figueroa]

Jon first let me reply to you. I apologize if my comment felt aimed at you, it was not intended that way. I am actually thrilled you made you post and opened this topic up for discussion and I agree that you didn’t do so in an offensive way. I certainly wasn’t trying to single you out but I see how my quoting “musings” made it seem that way. My apologies. I certainly have fairly strong opinions regarding design and aesthetic sensibilities and I am not out to change anybody’s mind. Part of me thinks we can have an interesting discussion and it was disheartening to see to an interesting topic devolve into what felt a little bit like “let’s collectively make fun of live edge.” Obviously if the topic drew me out of lurking I am interested and believe we can discuss LE and “over done” trends without potentially insensitive comments comparing peoples projects that they have shared with the forum to shag carpeting needing to be thrown away. Prashun perfectly captured my feelings when he wrote, ”Deriding live edge as a category is about as ridiculous as loving it as a category” and with significantly more parsimony. My eyes roll just as hard when I hear things like "slab tables are so played out, everyone is making them now" as when I hear "GAWD I loves me some live edge furniture MOAR river tables!" I was/am merely trying to encourage us as a group to avoid 50 posts about how we all agree LE is played out and have the more interesting discussion. Darcy's comment about pallet trend was hilarious, and the Haiku actually made a good point.

Now I don’t understand/agree with the concept that poor but widespread imitation somehow cheapens Nakashima’s work. I think if anything it shows that simply trying to emulate the look of something without understanding the intricacies in the design philosophy will often lead to subpar results. It speaks to Nakashima’s brilliance that despite a seemingly simple approach there are layers of complexity in the many minute choices he made in his designs. The same applies to Ansel Adam's work. In photography it is even more frustrating because technology has gotten so good that it is easier than it has ever been to become competent technically. It also forced me to come to terms that simple technical competence of a subject does not equal inspiring work. There were a bunch of average photographers who were no longer able to rely on expensive initial investment and lack of access to protect their livelihood. I truly believe that a master of hand cut dovetail joinery should not be threatened but a hobbyist with a side gig making pocket hole drawers and cabinets.

I did try and touch upon what I have learned in similar situations with my involvement teaching AP Art and Design (photography is included in the design designation). I believe that I may not have done a good job because it seems like my intent was misunderstood. I was in no way defending situations where "trendy" art received a score higher than it probably deserved. Let me make this clear, those situations were reprehensible especially when you consider the qualifications needed to become an AP reader. I was merely trying to point out the power of trends in shaping people's aesthetic sensibilities, especially when they lack exposure and background in a subject. I was also trying to point out the predictable reactions from different demographics. Obviously a community like SMC is going to have a much higher percentage of people who are able to recognize the widespread proliferation of work in a trendy style that is often not very good which is why I said I was not surprised at the overall direction that the thread took. I agree with your sentiment that you cannot wait for the the passing of this fad, but perhaps for a slightly different reason. Fads like this make it all too easy to simply dismiss good work just because it's trendy, and often as you stated yourself, good work that is not part of the trend gets lost in the flood of subpar work that dominates etsy, tv programming, instagram etc.

Fredrick Skelly I will try to tackle a thoughtful response to your contribution but it is going to have to be in subsequent post I am tired of thinking and typing.

[Mel Fulks]

Is this an argument against Picasso, or an argument against medical malpractice?
I don't think it's either one. Leanardo De Vinci made fun of Michalangelo and the dirtiness of chiseling rocks. But some
think he had talent.

[johnny means]

I think it's all a giant conspiracy by the resin/epoxy industry. Economist Bruce Yandle might call them the bootleggers to the woodworking Baptists in this movement.

[Frederick Skelly]

Is this an argument against Picasso, or an argument against medical malpractice?

Hehehe. That was pretty good Doug.

[Gordon Stump]

Some people still like clocks. I can think of over a dozen in my house, shop, and barn. But only a few are in high quality cases, wood or metal.


I like clocks

[Patrick Kane]

I didnt read a lot in the middle, just the beginning and the end. I would argue Nakashima's greatest skill was visualizing piece in a log and sawing to that piece. To an extent, his work is absolutely diluted by the last decade or two of proliferation, but that is what will always stand out in his pieces versus Tom, Dick, and Harry's Etsy pages. It's also a skillset his daughter lacks, i think.

I will pile on that the sawyers are making hay while the sun is shining. I know two local tree services that slab residential walnut logs and sell the green slabs for $5-7 per board foot. I have no idea how they keep getting those rates for green lumber, but it seems like they move product. Like the OP observes, one of the better one-man-outfits here is almost exclusively sawing live edge. I cant blame him, it looks like half the work and you have a product that is somehow more valuable. I missed the boat on riding the LE wave. Too bad, i think there was some decent money to be made.

[Andrew Gibson]

I have made a few live edge pieces and personally find them to be more challenging from a design standpoint compared to a traditional piece of furniture. Most who pump out Live edge tables and river tables seem to just grab any old slab and throw it together using the live edge as an excuse to not actually worry about design, proportions, or aesthetic. Most slabs would be better served if rendered down significantly IMHO. I am fully in the camp that river tables are the shag carpet of the 2010s, though I have seen some that I like. I believe social media is to blame, anyone can buy a slab throw some store bought legs on it and suddenly become a "maker". At the end of the day if it gets more people woodworking, maybe it's not all bad.

Here is my personal coffee table. I am quite happy with how it turned out. The top was made from a rather ugly, twisted slab that was originally about twice the size. I think I found what the slab wanted to be.

[Andrew Hughes]

I have made a few live edge pieces and personally find them to be more challenging from a design standpoint compared to a traditional piece of furniture. Most who pump out Live edge tables and river tables seem to just grab any old slab and throw it together using the live edge as an excuse to not actually worry about design, proportions, or aesthetic. Most slabs would be better served if rendered down significantly IMHO. I am fully in the camp that river tables are the shag carpet of the 2010s, though I have seen some that I like. I believe social media is to blame, anyone can buy a slab throw some store bought legs on it and suddenly become a "maker". At the end of the day if it gets more people woodworking, maybe it's not all bad.

Here is my personal coffee table. I am quite happy with how it turned out. The top was made from a rather ugly, twisted slab that was originally about twice the size. I think I found what the slab wanted to be.

Thats a good looking piece Andrew.
You definitely captured the spirit of that slab.

[Jon Grider]

I have made a few live edge pieces and personally find them to be more challenging from a design standpoint compared to a traditional piece of furniture. Most who pump out Live edge tables and river tables seem to just grab any old slab and throw it together using the live edge as an excuse to not actually worry about design, proportions, or aesthetic. Most slabs would be better served if rendered down significantly IMHO. I am fully in the camp that river tables are the shag carpet of the 2010s, though I have seen some that I like. I believe social media is to blame, anyone can buy a slab throw some store bought legs on it and suddenly become a "maker". At the end of the day if it gets more people woodworking, maybe it's not all bad.

Here is my personal coffee table. I am quite happy with how it turned out. The top was made from a rather ugly, twisted slab that was originally about twice the size. I think I found what the slab wanted to be.

Although it's not my style, that is a well executed table. The base shows skill and thought with the through M&T's and gentle curves. The proportional size of the live edge to the rest of the slab perimeter actually compliments the table and does not add a clumsiness to the top as so much LE slabs do. The table would have been lovely with a solid oval top as well. Just my opinion.

[Jon Grider]

Jon first let me reply to you. I apologize if my comment felt aimed at you, it was not intended that way. I am actually thrilled you made you post and opened this topic up for discussion and I agree that you didn’t do so in an offensive way. I certainly wasn’t trying to single you out but I see how my quoting “musings” made it seem that way. My apologies. I certainly have fairly strong opinions regarding design and aesthetic sensibilities and I am not out to change anybody’s mind. Part of me thinks we can have an interesting discussion and it was disheartening to see to an interesting topic devolve into what felt a little bit like “let’s collectively make fun of live edge.” Obviously if the topic drew me out of lurking I am interested and believe we can discuss LE and “over done” trends without potentially insensitive comments comparing peoples projects that they have shared with the forum to shag carpeting needing to be thrown away. Prashun perfectly captured my feelings when he wrote, ”Deriding live edge as a category is about as ridiculous as loving it as a category” and with significantly more parsimony. My eyes roll just as hard when I hear things like "slab tables are so played out, everyone is making them now" as when I hear "GAWD I loves me some live edge furniture MOAR river tables!" I was/am merely trying to encourage us as a group to avoid 50 posts about how we all agree LE is played out and have the more interesting discussion. Darcy's comment about pallet trend was hilarious, and the Haiku actually made a good point.

Now I don’t understand/agree with the concept that poor but widespread imitation somehow cheapens Nakashima’s work. I think if anything it shows that simply trying to emulate the look of something without understanding the intricacies in the design philosophy will often lead to subpar results. It speaks to Nakashima’s brilliance that despite a seemingly simple approach there are layers of complexity in the many minute choices he made in his designs. The same applies to Ansel Adam's work. In photography it is even more frustrating because technology has gotten so good that it is easier than it has ever been to become competent technically. It also forced me to come to terms that simple technical competence of a subject does not equal inspiring work. There were a bunch of average photographers who were no longer able to rely on expensive initial investment and lack of access to protect their livelihood. I truly believe that a master of hand cut dovetail joinery should not be threatened but a hobbyist with a side gig making pocket hole drawers and cabinets.

I did try and touch upon what I have learned in similar situations with my involvement teaching AP Art and Design (photography is included in the design designation). I believe that I may not have done a good job because it seems like my intent was misunderstood. I was in no way defending situations where "trendy" art received a score higher than it probably deserved. Let me make this clear, those situations were reprehensible especially when you consider the qualifications needed to become an AP reader. I was merely trying to point out the power of trends in shaping people's aesthetic sensibilities, especially when they lack exposure and background in a subject. I was also trying to point out the predictable reactions from different demographics. Obviously a community like SMC is going to have a much higher percentage of people who are able to recognize the widespread proliferation of work in a trendy style that is often not very good which is why I said I was not surprised at the overall direction that the thread took. I agree with your sentiment that you cannot wait for the the passing of this fad, but perhaps for a slightly different reason. Fads like this make it all too easy to simply dismiss good work just because it's trendy, and often as you stated yourself, good work that is not part of the trend gets lost in the flood of subpar work that dominates etsy, tv programming, instagram etc.

Fredrick Skelly I will try to tackle a thoughtful response to your contribution but it is going to have to be in subsequent post I am tired of thinking and typing.


Cristobal,

Thank you for your post. I probably did misinterpret your first post but I believe I now understand your intent. I don't necessarily agree with your position on the effect of "widespread imitation" of Nakashima's work but my opinion is worth just what I ask for it. I can agree to disagree and don't wish to have the tone of being the final authority on anything. I was surprised at the direction the thread took but in retrospect I can see that I should have anticipated a divisive response . I apologize to all if I added fuel to the fire.

I do hope you'll continue to post on SMC; like you, I enjoy different perspectives and usually this forum is one of the most cordial I have participated on.

"

[andrew whicker]

Why would a thick slab cost less than a rough cut board? The rough cut boards are being produced by the millions (or something). Slabs commit the tree owner to producing less volume of wood and producing something that will probably sit in inventory longer.

Everything has it's place in furniture design / functional art.

If one is going to go off on a 'generic' rant, then every design is up for that treatment. I don't like G&G furniture because I think it's furniture designed by a woodworker trying to show off their skill vs a furniture designer trying to make an elegant design. I don't think every complicated joinery piece is bad, I just think it needs to either be a part of the design or left out. G&G looks forced to me.

Anyway, my biggest frustration is the epoxy thing. But that's mainly because I have hard time seeing any epoxy furniture as heirloom quality. All the clear stuff will eventually cloud. But I also see it the same way I see G&G stuff, it's an epoxy person making a design based on their skills vs making a design based on.... good design. And besides, it simply isn't going to sell at the heirloom quality prices. So it's not something I have to worry about.

My thought on design: loosen up, look around, make sure you are doing something that fits the concept and not the other way around. Try not to be a hammer that always sees a nail. Live edge, complicated joinery, epoxy, scroll work, etc etc. Try to get out of the box. I think my live edge table worked because the edge worked with the overall design, it doesn't look forced. Not a normal table base with a slab thrown on top.

But the reality boils down to: if the end user likes it, who cares? Picasso doesn't care that you don't like his work. My customer and I don't care if you don't like my dining table.

[Bill Carey]

...... I was not moved by the conoid desk - it made me think of a poor game of the woodworking version of Mr. Potato Head. IMHO. ........

The Mr Potato Head comment has been bothering me. Thought it was clever at the time, but now it seems petty and silly. In truth, I do not care for his work. His skill and vision and execution however are very impressive, and the truth that he found for and in himself seems to have been the path he unerringly took. And he and the work of his family deserved better than the potato head comment. Mea culpa.

[Derek Cohen]

There is one aspect to the live edge furniture I do like .... in a few years time, when the fad dies and fashion moves on, there will be a plentiful and hopefully cheap source of slabs for re-sawing into timber for furniture. :)

Regards from Berlin

Derek

[Jerry Wright]

Most of these posts sound like sour old men who are bitching about the weather. More time in the shop and less time on the keyboard will cure that ailment. Remember that " there are those who do and those that boo. Doers never boo and booers never do".
Another grumpy old man!:)

[jack duren]

Most of these posts sound like sour old men who are bitching about the weather. More time in the shop and less time on the keyboard will cure that ailment. Remember that " there are those who do and those that boo. Doers never boo and booers never do".
Another grumpy old man!:)



Agree..........

[Frederick Skelly]

Most of these posts sound like sour old men who are bitching about the weather. More time in the shop and less time on the keyboard will cure that ailment. Remember that " there are those who do and those that boo. Doers never boo and booers never do".
Another grumpy old man!:)

That's a very good point, Jerry. Thanks for the reminder.

[David Utterback]

For me, the works are all about the unusual grain figure and the texture of the natural edge especially with cherry bark attached. The contrast of heart wood, sap wood and cherry bark is a "natural" feature that enhances the elegance and ties it firmly to the original material. I plan to use much more of my stash in this fashion.

I have not read any Nakashima but have admired his work in books and articles and have sat on his products in museums. His use of natural materials is emblematic of his authentic artistic impression from the real world. Many great artists have this special sense. And, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

We all have our own ways and may the great diversity of all continue to enrich the whole world.

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m not much for the style. But as a maker sometimes a piece of lumber is just perfect the way it came off the mill or it was sawn. When you see a piece like this it can’t be argued with.

But as a maker, lover of furniture craft and anything hand made I don’t much care for the style either.

Just so much crap out there. Last year i was installing some cabs I build in a clients house. They had this beautiful slab style bubinga dinning table. Well the slab was beautiful it only had one live edge but the maker be it at the request of the buyer or not I don’t know glued another live edge onto it. The glue line was clear as day and just a horrific. So may better uses for that particular piece of wood. As a lover of lumber and I guess collector I wouldn’t had been willing to sell that piece to that client for any amount. It imop is a waste of a natural resource we will one day not have. Money is just not that important. I would had waited for a paying project I could be proud of or kept it for myself.

[Frederick Skelly]

I have not read any Nakashima but have admired his work in books and articles and have sat on his products in museums.

David, I dont "know" anybody who has sat on Mr. Nakahima's products. Did you find them to be comfortable? I ask because ... well, some of them just don't look comfortable. I keep thinking of this one when I say that. And I acknowledge that I may have missed the whole point of this piece- I'm not trying to be a wiseguy.
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[Jim Becker]

Fred, I've sat in several different Nakashima chairs...they are available in the Nakashima Reading Room in the nearby Mitchener (yes, "that" Michener) Art Museum. (https://www.michenerartmuseum.org/mam_exhibitions/nakashima-reading-room/) They also have some at the Nakashima compound. Rago Auctions in nearby Lambertville NJ gets quite a few pieces through from time to time, too.

Most that I've sat in are comfortable. The one you portray isn't likely ideal, but he did pay good attention to keeping the back parallel to the front edge so that seat depth was somewhat similar across the seating area.

[Prashun Patel]

Yes, you missed the whole point of that piece.

There's some irony to this piece which I personally find works well. I had this same feeling when visiting the Picasso museum in Barcelona. His later, abstract work is impressive in the context of what he painted when he was young. He was traditionally very talented before he started breaking rules. Nakashima was a trained architect. The end spindles on the back of this piece show us he knows what he was doing. The elimination of a bottom stretcher or way to otherwise stabilize the base is a conscious choice in the context of his ability.

He made plenty of large pieces with more traditional bases like the Conoid dining table. If you've ever REALLY sat down and tried to design something like a Nakashima, you can appreciate how very difficult it is to be simultaneously minimalist yet structurally sound - or knowing when the rules can be broken.

Picasso said [paraphrasing]: It took me 30 years to learn how to make a 5 minute sketch.

I wouldn't show a red hot chili pepper to someone who likes spicy food and expect them to explain if they found it savory and delicious.

[Patrick Walsh]

I’ll admit I have had a bit to much time on my hands as of late. Two weeks vacation currently caring for a dog that had four teeth removed all at once. I think often people whom really get into it online have well to much time on their hands.

Anyway Prashun’s responses reminds me of when I was teenager in art school. My heart was as a oil Pinter and fine artist. My real talent ended up being pottery. I can remember clear as day the my instructor coming to me as he regularly did to critique my work. At the time I was smitten by tea kettles. Anyway he came to me and asked why it was I always incorporated something into a what would be a perfectly functional piece of pottery that rendered it otherwise useless. Clearly he knew the answer before he asked being artist himself. His point though was to make me question myself as a artist. My response was that I identified pottery and the process of making pottery no different than painting a picture. That my pottery I created with the intention of it being viewed first and used second if at all. Being used was never my intent when creating.

Anyway fast forward thirty years and I am still making stuff. I have come full circle in many ways with a appreciation for period reproductions and fine quality joinery and a piece that will last a few hundred years vrs just look good. As a maker and identifying as a maker and not a artist I see the two clearly overlap. As nakawhoever did, I have never been smitten by others work more interested in making than looking. Clearly I know who Nakashima is point being I dint think makers always have the intent of something being functional. I think often that is missed by the lay person and the crafts person vrs the artist.

As a guy that started out as a artist and developed into a craftsperson I feel as my professor years ago was probably trying to instill in me that both could be realized under one roof. Even still depending I do and do not feel the need for myself or others to adhere to rules.

I was never much impressed with rules.

[Frederick Skelly]

Ok. Thanks for explaining it to me guys. It's not my cup of tea, but as someone pointed out earlier, I don't have to like it (Picasso, Mr. Nakashima or live edge :) ). Fair enough. I appreciate you all trying to teach me, and your patience while doing so.

Jim, maybe I'll get to try one of those chairs some day. Sounds like that museum sould be worthwhile.

Thanks all.
Fred

[Pat Barry]

David, I dont "know" anybody who has sat on Mr. Nakahima's products. Did you find them to be comfortable? I ask because ... well, some of them just don't look comfortable. I keep thinking of this one when I say that. And I acknowledge that I may have missed the whole point of this piece- I'm not trying to be a wiseguy.
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When you lean back and you hear cracking noises you've gone too far. This was a pretty big waste of nice lumber IMO. No offense lovers if the 'art'.

[Andrew Hughes]

To me it looks like a tree grew around a bench.

[Patrick Walsh]

It’s like the banana on the wall for $100k’

Except that’s ridiculous.

Except to the person that thinks it’s not.

Beauty and value can be defined so many ways.

It’s all in the eye of the beholder.

I see nothing wrong with making a piece of art that recognizes the qualities one appreciates and Inspiration sometimes found in a functional piece of furniture but fully leaves function behind in pursuit of form.

You know like a chair that’s clearly a chair but the viewer knows darn well don’t sit in it as it clearly is not meant to be sat it.

I know most nice things I make I don’t want anyone ever to lay a finger on as I know they will just ruin them. Even if it’s perfectly functional I’m also ok with just leaving it to look pretty all it’s days.

[Jerry Wright]

Re: using or beholding custom furniture....

I once visited the shop of a guy in Saranac Lake who builds beautiful wooden classic Adirondack guide boats. They sell for $13K. He says he hopes that they get used, but often end up hanging on the wall in a lodge. He says "once the check clears, they can do what they want with it." :)

[Patrick Walsh]

The good news for me is to date at least I don’t build anything I get very much all that attached to as most of it really is junk all plywood and pocket screws dominos and biscuits. So I honestly at work can relate to the boat builder.

But advocationally speaking I build things in a manner I don’t want to let them go. Once in a blue moon I get to do that for a paycheck and yes even they I’m normally so tired of the piece I’m ready to see it go.


Re: using or beholding custom furniture....

I once visited the shop of a guy in Saranac Lake who builds beautiful wooden classic Adirondack guide boats. They sell for $13K. He says he hopes that they get used, but often end up hanging on the wall in a lodge. He says "once the check clears, they can do what they want with it." :)

[John Makar]

Okay, LMAO. I have spent the past month ranting to my son-in-law on exactly this topic, you guys are all repeating what I already said (tho no Haikus. Yet). I also think it's generational, and suspect I am in the company of a bunch of olde fartes. What has begun to persuade him is sending him links with prices. I will survive, this too shall pass, but for now I love working with Walnut and the current offerings of even remotely dimensioned wood are getting depressing.

[John Makar]

I personally am LOVING this discussion. I have a youngish [50s] friend who is a full prof of art at one of Colo's outer universities. We go back and forth on this type of stuff all the time. I am a simple semi-craftsman (w/pension and MAS in Comp Sci) so all this esthetic stuff is something to dabble in and antagonize youngish [50s] feminist art profs. Please, Cristobal, don't take offense, come back and make some effort to enlighten us, otherwise we will fall back in to discussing router bits.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Okay, LMAO. I have spent the past month ranting to my son-in-law on exactly this topic, you guys are all repeating what I already said (tho no Haikus. Yet). I also think it's generational, and suspect I am in the company of a bunch of olde fartes. What has begun to persuade him is sending him links with prices. I will survive, this too shall pass, but for now I love working with Walnut and the current offerings of even remotely dimensioned wood are getting depressing.

I am only 33 but my sister has been telling me for at least 10 or 15 years that I am already so much of a grumpy old curmudgeon that she can't imagine what I'll be like in 40 years.
Zach

[John Makar]

I suggest a study of Victorian British wit. They were masters of snide, concise put-downs. If you must be a curmudgeon, have an edge! The downside is you can never read twitter again. It is such unskillful dreck.

[John Makar]

This may screw up the market further, but do you have any idea what Claro Walnut slabs go for?

https://cswoods.com/

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Well, I mentioned that my business partner was building a live-edge table. Here it is, and I must say, I am very impressed. I do not usually like these, but a I love this one, and the mahogany slab has a local history to it- It was one of the trees cut to widen the road, and many people protested this decision.

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He he has received an order for one for $8500. He is much better at pricing things than I am. :-)

[Patrick Walsh]

Love love love Claro

But man I have come to loath walnut in general. It’s so in gauge right now. Everybody whom can afford a $150k plus kitchen renovation or or 3 million dollar home just has to have walnut floor and or counters cabs island something. It can be very beautiful but it’s so overused. Then the stain generally slathered all over it to even it out just takes everything I love about wood right out of it.

But claro is beautiful. I live near Berkshire products and man o man is that stuff expensive. I’m about to purchase some black and white ebony for a project if you wanna talk expensive though. Holly smokes best sit down..


This may screw up the market further, but do you have any idea what Claro Walnut slabs go for?

https://cswoods.com/

[Pat Barry]

Maybe its just me, but I don't think a table with large holes in it is very practical. Love the beauty of the wood though.

[Scott T Smith]

Without delving into the artistic issues, from a manufacturing standpoint it costs me a lot more to produce wide slabs as compared with standard lumber.

For starters, frequently each slab weighs several hundred pounds (the one in the photo below is over 1000 lbs). This means that you're not offbearing them with a person or two. Instead you have to shut down the mill and use a combination of muscle and heavy equipment to remove them one by one from the log. Then you have to sticker them (without crunching your fingers). Production rate when milling and stickering large slabs is very slow.

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Second, the production rate when sawing through a ultra wide log (48", give or take) is much slower than slicing up an 18" log into lumber. Sometimes it takes us 20-30 minutes or more to mill a single slab. Some of you may recognize this photo from the current issue of FWW Tools and Shops (photo used with permission of The Taunton Press). It took us almost 25 minutes per slab on this log, and another 10 -15 minutes to off-bear and stack it. In that same amount of time we can produce several hundred board feet of typical flat sawn 4/4 lumber with our hydraulic band mill.

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Third, big old trees are usually yard trees, and they almost always have metal in them. So your yield is lower and your costs are higher ($150 loss per destroyed chain in my instance).

Fourth is the drying costs. I just pulled several very large oak slabs out of the kiln that have been air drying in a shelter for over 4 years. Even then they required over a month in the kiln to finish off and sterilize. So maybe this year I'll see a partial return on investment for significant costs that I incurred back in 2015 to acquire, mill and transport slabs.

Fifth is the drying losses. Long, wide slabs are going to move as they dry, and there isn't a whole lot that you can do to prevent it. I've had slabs distort that had over 20,000 lbs of weight on them. So if you've got a 70" wide, long gnarly log that you want to net a 2" S2S kiln dried slab out of, you'd better be milling it around 4" green in order to have enough room to flatten it after drying and still net 2". So you're yield drops almost in half, and your costs are significantly greater. It takes us about half a day to S2S ultra large slabs.

Sixth is loading and transportation costs. The log in the photo below weighs almost 35,000 lbs. That requires very expensive cranes on each end for loading and unloading, not to mention setting up to mill.

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These factors don't apply as much to narrower slabs (less than 20"), or green slabs, but if you're buying well dried, very large slabs there are a lot of costs associated with milling, drying and surfacing them.

[Prashun Patel]

I am renovating my kitchen and doing a walnut island. Oh yes, and one edge will be live.

The worst of all worlds ;)

[Malcolm McLeod]

I am renovating my kitchen and doing a walnut island. Oh yes, and one edge will be live.

The worst of all worlds ;)

No worries! Kitchens are dated and worn in 7-10 yrs anyway, so just re-purpose the slab when you demo the whole enchilada. ;)

[John Makar]

Or, sell it to itinerant kitchen refurbishers. They are a noble breed, certain to make good social use of it.

[Jim Becker]

I am renovating my kitchen and doing a walnut island. Oh yes, and one edge will be live.

The worst of all worlds ;)

Great choice, IMHO!!! If I were going to stay at this property for longer than is likely going to happen at this point (once the younger graduates from PSU and the older ... hopefully ... gets more independent, Professor Dr. SWMBO and I will likely consider down-sizing) I'd cheerfully re-do our kitchen island with a natural edge top, one-side like you describe with the straight edge on the "work" side which is galley-like. Honestly, I may still do that. :)

[David Utterback]

David, I dont "know" anybody who has sat on Mr. Nakahima's products. Did you find them to be comfortable? I ask because ... well, some of them just don't look comfortable. I keep thinking of this one when I say that. And I acknowledge that I may have missed the whole point of this piece- I'm not trying to be a wiseguy.
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The experience was entirely pleasant. Besides that, the seating was comfortable as well.

[jeff norris 2011]

I have to admit I have started making 'live edge' cheese boards to give away.:)

Of course you guys will recognize them for what the really are - off cuts. I make sure to set the mitre saw up at 15* an 27* or whatever and chop off some corners and hack at the previously square boards with a chisel, then work them over with my Rotex and finish with mineral oil. Takes about 30 minutes to make three boards.

Never wanted to make them, but the wife wanted a cheese board for a dinner party starting in 30 min so I made one for her fast as she said she like this style. Then people asked for them, so I made more.

It does help with the scrap pile shrink though.

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[Tony Shea]

Without delving into the artistic issues, from a manufacturing standpoint it costs me a lot more to produce wide slabs as compared with standard lumber.

For starters, frequently each slab weighs several hundred pounds (the one in the photo below is over 1000 lbs). This means that you're not offbearing them with a person or two. Instead you have to shut down the mill and use a combination of muscle and heavy equipment to remove them one by one from the log. Then you have to sticker them (without crunching your fingers). Production rate when milling and stickering large slabs is very slow.

422979

Second, the production rate when sawing through a ultra wide log (48", give or take) is much slower than slicing up an 18" log into lumber. Sometimes it takes us 20-30 minutes or more to mill a single slab. Some of you may recognize this photo from the current issue of FWW Tools and Shops (photo used with permission of The Taunton Press). It took us almost 25 minutes per slab on this log, and another 10 -15 minutes to off-bear and stack it. In that same amount of time we can produce several hundred board feet of typical flat sawn 4/4 lumber with our hydraulic band mill.

422981


Third, big old trees are usually yard trees, and they almost always have metal in them. So your yield is lower and your costs are higher ($150 loss per destroyed chain in my instance).

Fourth is the drying costs. I just pulled several very large oak slabs out of the kiln that have been air drying in a shelter for over 4 years. Even then they required over a month in the kiln to finish off and sterilize. So maybe this year I'll see a partial return on investment for significant costs that I incurred back in 2015 to acquire, mill and transport slabs.

Fifth is the drying losses. Long, wide slabs are going to move as they dry, and there isn't a whole lot that you can do to prevent it. I've had slabs distort that had over 20,000 lbs of weight on them. So if you've got a 70" wide, long gnarly log that you want to net a 2" S2S kiln dried slab out of, you'd better be milling it around 4" green in order to have enough room to flatten it after drying and still net 2". So you're yield drops almost in half, and your costs are significantly greater. It takes us about half a day to S2S ultra large slabs.

Sixth is loading and transportation costs. The log in the photo below weighs almost 35,000 lbs. That requires very expensive cranes on each end for loading and unloading, not to mention setting up to mill.

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These factors don't apply as much to narrower slabs (less than 20"), or green slabs, but if you're buying well dried, very large slabs there are a lot of costs associated with milling, drying and surfacing them.


Scott this is very good information. I don't know that side of the craft that well therefore make assumptions that apparently aren't true.

It is still my opinion that this live edge epoxy table movement has caused prices of slab lumber to sky rocket. I prefer to buy my lumber this way, especially in flitches that can warrant great grain matching. But recently they have been separating these slabs and increasing the prices of this lumber much higher than a similar piece without the live edges. I've never used live edges in my work but buying lumber that has been sawn through and through gives me much more options when laying out the pieces. IMO lumber suppliers are taking advantage of this new fad and increasing the cost of live edge lumber slightly unnecessarily. But after reading Scott's post I do understand why the extremely large slabs have a premium price associated with them. It does seem a bit odd that similar sized slabs, one with the live edge left on and one with the edges ripped off would have any difference in price per board foot.

[Michael A. Tyree]

First, I do not wish to offend anyone, but I very well may and I apologize in advance if you are offended by my post.

First rant is that I'm way over the "live edge furniture" movement. It floods the on line and Etsy/Pinterest type market and much of it imo cheapens the artistic, functional, and intrinsic value of George Nakashima's work. It seems anyone with four pipe flanges,caps, 3/4" pipe sections and a slab of "live edge" wood views themselves as a creative genius for slapping together a hall table. Yes, I do love the beauty of a slab of figured or even character grade wood and in Georges view, the piece of wood should tell you what it wants to be; that doesn't let the craftsman off the hook as far as designing and building a base or other type component worthy of displaying that slab.

I buy much of my lumber from area small mill operators and a local on line auction which brings up my second and admittedly selfish rant. For me, the demand for "live edge" lumber has created price increases, lowered the quality, and generally made it tougher to find lumber that has the wane and bark removed. There are bidding wars on "live edge" full of knots, splits, checks, and insects that imo is most suitable for the fireplace. Around here, the lumber that is SLR has a large premium on a service that was for the most part standard a few years ago.

Apparently there must be a market for this rustic furniture as there is so much of it out there. I just wish this fad would pass. Thanks for listening.


I became interested in live edge rustic tables, benches, etc. a very long time ago when an early issue of Fine Woodworking did a feature on the then living George Nakishima who worked in PA. It is not a fad in that it's been around much longer, however that isn't said to "make you like it" or not. Fads are more so something that comes and goes and slabs came long ago. I fail to understand a slabs effect on a lumber price in that species? If it does it's from that seller not all sawmills. The Hardwood Market Report is a better price point indicator? Things like recent tariffs, demand for white oak stave grade logs drive prices in the larger world of timber?
Your "fad" is easily seen in my LR coffee table and end table and much more, built about 40+ years ago. It is a style that fits our log home built from scratch in 1979-80. I'm sure much more recent natural edge items has gone into more modern homes, like the bunch of natural edge shelves i made from walnut for my son in TN kitchen refurb. They actually look quite nice with white china on them. Not all work I do is slabs for sure. I will add that I dislike the use of metal legs as I prefer round turned, wedged tenons in my legs for slabs. OK if you like them but not for me. It is a great way for a entry level wood worker to throw something together who lacks the ability to pull off a large angled hole or turn a leg tenon, etc..

[Jerry Wright]

All those darn fads...Louis XIV, Shaker, Colonial, Danish modern, Arts and Crafts, wrought iron, ..... Have built a number of tables - a glued up top is way more predictable than dealing with a large live edge slab. Also, have never heard "Wow, what a table" said about a glued up colonial, but still get that comment about live edge claro walnut or beech tables. Different strokes for different folks.....

[Don Penniman]

Very timely thread. I have been unwittingly sucked into the world of live-edge woodworking. A giant elm tree in our back yard died and we had it taken down last fall. I didn't want it to go the the landfill, so I inquired at the local Woodcraft store and was connected to a gentleman with a bandsaw mill and vacuum kiln. This got totally out of control and I now have 26 large live-edge slabs and about 400 board feet of dimensional lumber. Had to rent a storage unit to store it over the winter.

What am I going to do with it? Good question. We considered a 3'x6' coffee table for the living room, but it really doesn't fit our 1920s-vintage urban house. Maybe a desk and bookshelves for my home office. My son wants to make a coffee table and my daughter wants a river table (little does she know how much sanding she will be doing).

The dimensional lumber is another issue. Some of it will be used for trestle bases for live-edge pieces. Some of the boards are 6/4, 8" wide, 12' long, with one-foot sections with interesting quilted figure.

The elm tree experience prompted me to join SMC. I will be popping in here with lots of questions on working with elm wood.

[Mark Gibney]

You could put the slabs up for sale on craigslist or a similar platform.

[Frank Pratt]

If I were in your position, I'd cut the live edges off some & keep it for my own use & some I'd sell with the live edge on kijiji. It's crazy how much a live edge slab will sell for, even if the quality is poor.

[Don Penniman]

I will indeed be selling as much as I can, although lumber marketing was never one of my career choices. Lots of competition on craigslist - several guys around here are selling high-quality cherry slabs. I will check out kijiji.

[Randy Heinemann]

Cristobal,

I started this thread just to voice my opinion, nothing more, nothing less and I maintain my position that I think that much of L.E. movements' growth has cheapened George Nakashima's creative work in the same way as those who put their cell phone in B&W mode and take a selfie at the base of Half Dome and think of themselves to be a photographer like Adams or Weston.

Nothing cheapens great work, especially something at the level of George Nakashima. I feel the only thing trends really do in woodworking is take a design or concept and generate a lot of pieces that end up being appealing to a wide range of tastes in the population. There is nothing wrong with that and the work like George Nakashima's still remains what it is - great, unique work from a great craftsman and designer.

[Steve Ondich]

First, I do not wish to offend anyone, but I very well may and I apologize in advance if you are offended by my post.

First rant is that I'm way over the "live edge furniture" movement. It floods the on line and Etsy/Pinterest type market and much of it imo cheapens the artistic, functional, and intrinsic value of George Nakashima's work. It seems anyone with four pipe flanges,caps, 3/4" pipe sections and a slab of "live edge" wood views themselves as a creative genius for slapping together a hall table. Yes, I do love the beauty of a slab of figured or even character grade wood and in Georges view, the piece of wood should tell you what it wants to be; that doesn't let the craftsman off the hook as far as designing and building a base or other type component worthy of displaying that slab.

I hear you.

I'm more on the wood supplier-end than the woodworker-end. From my perspective, anyone with a chain-saw and access to Craigslist is now a purveyor of fine hardwoods. Who cares about moisture content, specie, bugs, grade, mold, etc. LOL

The biggest issue for woodworkers is that rustic live-edge often allows for craftsman-ship sloppiness that would never be tolerated in traditional furniture. So the average person sees a well designed high-end live edge piece as not significantly different than one slapped together on etsy. When the focal point of a piece of furniture is the wood, it's easy for people to lose sight of the design, hardware, finish, and all the other details that make something a piece of fine furniture.

Consider this hypothetical:

You have 24 hours create an art forgery that will fool at least some art experts. It can be either a Rembrandt or a Jackson Pollock. Which do you choose?

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If you're like me, you feel you have zero shot at the Rembrandt but you might be able to pull off a long-lost Jackson Pollock.

[mike stenson]

If you're like me, you feel you have zero shot at the Rembrandt but you might be able to pull off a long-lost Jackson Pollock.

Only if you're chain smoking while painting it.

Actually, either way you'd be hard-pressed (pretty impossible) to fool anyone with either ;)

[Steve Ondich]

Probably...but you get my point. No one actually believes they could pull off a Rembrandt :rolleyes: but lots of amateurs think they could create an abstract masterpiece by sloshing some paint around.

I think that a lot of marginal woodworkers see the high price tags on rustic/live edge furniture and think :rolleyes:, "That's something I can pull off!" No hack woodworker thinks that after seeing a Sam Maloof chair.

FYI - my daughter just adopted 5 rats. They're a lot smarter than I thought.


Only if you're chain smoking while painting it.

Actually, either way you'd be hard-pressed (pretty impossible) to fool anyone with either

[mike stenson]

Probably...but you get my point. No one actually believes they could pull off a Rembrandt :rolleyes: but lots of amateurs think they could create an abstract masterpiece by sloshing some paint around.

I think that a lot of marginal woodworkers see the high price tags on rustic/live edge furniture and think :rolleyes:, "That's something I can pull off!" No hack woodworker thinks that after seeing a Sam Maloof chair.

FYI - my daughter just adopted 5 rats. They're a lot smarter than I thought.

Yea, I've been removing them (pack rats) from the building that's becoming my shop.

I think ultimately it's pretty much like this. Any style that's poorly done is just poorly done. Look at all the low end shaker and A&C knock offs that are out there, and there are a lot of those. All that's happened now is modern furniture design (and more specifically mid-century modern) happens to be in vogue. In all three of those cases, they all look deceptively easy to do.

No one looks at Federalist furniture and thinks it's easy to make either :)

full disclosure: I'm about to shamelessly rip off Nakashima, I need something to house stereo equipment and I've always appreciated the simplicity of his studio cabinets.