"Should have bought a bigger jointer"

[julian abram]

I don't know how many times I have seen folks express this. I worked off a nice little Jet 6" for many years until I stepped up and order an 8" (Grizzly 490X) Christmas 2017. It has been a wonderful improvement over the little Jet but now seems like everytime I'm in the shop there is a 9" or 10" piece that needs flattened. Geez, just can't win. I'm eye balling 12"ers but it's a pretty strong step up in price from an 8". One thing I've learned with the 8", I will never go back to a straight knife unit. Sprial cut is just so sweet.

[Andrew Seemann]

I'd like a 12" jointer, but then again, I'd like a 37" Timesaver, a 14" radial arm saw, a 36" Tannewitz, one of them big old Powermatic lathes, a panel saw, an overarm router, and a stroke sander; but those aren't going to happen either, because I don't have the space, and honestly I really don't need them that badly. I will upgrade from my 6" Jet jointer someday, but to a 8" Grizzly. 12" would be nice, but 7 feet, half a ton, and four grand doesn't work with my shop or budget.

[Fred Falgiano]

I struggled with this expense when I set up my shop about 4 years ago. I took the plunge and got the 12” grizzly spiral jointer.

Of all my tools in the shop, the jointer, being is first step on every single project, is used the most frequently. Loads of cuts can be made on any of several saws, but the jointer is a one-trick pony (well except for tapering table legs) that can’t be replaced.

Bigger is indeed better in this case.

[Darcy Warner]

I will take straight knives any day over carbide inserts and those stupid screws.

My poor 30" jointer only has two knives...

[David Kumm]

If you find a 12" with flat tables and a large diameter head, don't worry about the knives. Dave

[Derek Cohen]

I don't know how many times I have seen folks express this. I worked off a nice little Jet 6" for many years until I stepped up and order an 8" (Grizzly 490X) Christmas 2017. It has been a wonderful improvement over the little Jet but now seems like everytime I'm in the shop there is a 9" or 10" piece that needs flattened. Geez, just can't win. I'm eye balling 12"ers but it's a pretty strong step up in price from an 8". One thing I've learned with the 8", I will never go back to a straight knife unit. Sprial cut is just so sweet.

Julian, I purchased a Hammer A3-31, which is a 12” combination jointer/thicknesser-planer several years ago. It was expensive for me, and would not have been more than a dream if not for a timely tax return and a supportive wife. My previous machine was a separate 8” jointer and a 12 1/2” lunch box. The lunch box was used less than a half dozen times in the 5 or so years of ownership, as it was so loud and scared the dog. Fortunately, I have a few decades of experience with hand planes. The jointer worked well enough, but had a bed like an aircraft carrier and look up too much space in my half of a double garage.

The Hammer was a revelation. Not just because it enabled preparation of realistically wide boards, but because it is quiet (you can hold a conversation next to it while it is running) and this made the thicknesser-planer usable. The helix carbide blades leave a very good surface - not finish, per se, since I hand plane my boards anyway, but most would be satisfied with the finish off the machines. The helix inserts are very tolerant of interlocked grain. And the space saved with one machine really made a difference for me. I found that I did not need the extra length of the 8” jointer. The extra width of the Hammer was what counted.

At the time I purchased this, there were one or two other combo machines, but they were not great. I was after the extra width, and a combo made this affordable since a stand-alone jointer was extremely expensive. It seems absurd, but this was a cheaper way to get there. Now there appear to be many other options in combo machines, but the concept remains.

Regards from Prague

Derek

[Stewart Lang]

I have a 16" restored old iron jointer with straight knives. I'm currently in the process of retrofiting a shelix head on it, so I bought a 12" spiral head grizzly to use in the meantime. It feels small :D

It's all perspective. I had a little 6" jointer for the longest time when I was starting out, and it felt fine. But I saw a 6" again in person not too long and I wonder how I ever used something so tiny haha

[Bill Space]

There are threads here showing how to flatten boards wider than your jointer, using a sled with your planer.

I have used this technique with good results with my G0490X on boards up to 12 inches. You first flatten an 8” section, then using a sled with this flat surface resting on it, flatten the other 12” side. Finally you flip the board and run the flat 12” side (that side down) through the planer.

This works, but takes more time than having a wider jointer would. You may already be aware of this. Just mentioning it as an option if you have not considered it.

[Brian Holcombe]

The downside to carbide insert is that at least 1/2 their working life is spent slightly dull. I combat this on my Tersa head by keeping sharp knives handy and using my fuller set for most work. Swap
to good knives for finish cuts. On a spiral the options are to either turn the carbides sooner or deal with result of full cutters longer.

Straight knives can be sharpened much more often, so while they’re more setup work they do have a practical benefit.

[Ole Anderson]

My solution to flattening big boards is ten minutes away at Armstrong Millworks. My 6" jointer gets used for edge jointing, seldom face flattening.

[Matt Day]

Boggles my mind spending $4k on a new Grizzly 12” jointer. I couldn’t be happier with my 12” Northfield I got at auction and restored for under a grand, with straight knives.
I started with a 6” Delta, then an 8” Shop Fox, now the NF. And as much as I love the NF I’m sure at some point down the road I’ll be tempted by a 16”.

[Jim Becker]

Julian, the quote in your thread title is exactly one of the major reasons why I'm so gung-ho on jointer/planer combos...flattening capacity equal to thicknessing capacity relative to width. Separates that embrace the same is great if one can support that space and money-wise, but I do think that more folks could kick their woodworking up a notch in more modest shops by embracing the J/P combo configuration for that reason. Knife type is a subjective thing, too. I'm very happy with Tersa, but I'm sure that a nice, wide tool with spiral/helical would also make me smile.

[Curt Harms]

I too am happy with a J/P combo. 12" jointer and 12" induction motor powered planer in a space about 2' X 5'. I mostly work with rough stock that is often more than 8" wide. I generally cut long stock to rough length before flattening so don't really miss the long tables. A time or two I've used roller stands for infeed and outfeed support .that seemed to work OK. I guess if I did a lot of entry doors or beds I'd face joint longer stock.

[John TenEyck]

I don't know anyone who ever regretted having a jointer that was "too wide". My first jointer was an Inca 10-1/4" J/P. Even then, I never understood how anyone could get by with anything narrower. Now I have a 14" MM J/P and it's still not too big. Both of those machines I got used, and I recommend you look for a good used machine, too, before spending money just to get new paint. Folks will sell very good straight knife machines just because they have to have something with a spiral head, and that provides an opportunity for folks like me who actually like machines with straight knives.

In any case, bigger (wider, actually) is definitely better.

John

[Roger Feeley]

Darcy,
you are going against the grain a bit with your hatred of the carbide inserts. What’s your beef with them?


I will take straight knives any day over carbide inserts and those stupid screws.

My poor 30" jointer only has two knives...

[Mike Kees]

I started with a 6'' delta. It took me about 10 years to find a good used 8'' jointer,it was amazing compared to my 6''. Then about 6 years further down the road I had a deal worked out on a 12'' Cantek jointer that fell through. I found a 16'' Italian jointer about 3 weeks later for $1000 less. This is my last jointer,really glad that I skipped the 12'' step.I have no plans to change the cutter head on this machine,straight knives work really well for me. I just purchased a grinder to sharpen my own jointer and planer knives,so now will change them more frequently.

[Mick Simon]

+1 on the bigger is better side. I do not regret buying a 16" J/P combo for a second, for the reasons Jim mentioned above.

[Patrick Walsh]

I don’t want this to come off the wrong way so please don’t let it.

I’d say Darcy is absolutely not going against the grain regarding straight vrs carbide insert. Coming from a guy whom owns both. A 16” Felder Ad941 and a Martin T54 I feel I can speak to this quite well. Although I am a professional I feel I can also speak to this from both the hobby end of the Market at that’s where I started and in some ways still am and as a full time cabinet maker for a number of years now I can speak as a professional.

I think it’s pretty well known any professional would much prefer a straight or Tersa knife. If I remeber correct Darcy does not like Tersa either but I don’t want to put worlds in his mouth so don’t take me to the bank on that.

Here is my two cents. I’ll start with my use for a jointer and planer and the purpose I think they serve for most. I use them to get dimensioned material. That’s it plain and simple, I rely on a hand planed fishing, sandpaper and or a wide belt post dimensioning stock. I would never build right off either a jointer or planer.

So let’s start with carbide insert. Advantages, stay relatively sharp for a long long time. Sharp enough to do what I need a jointer or planer to do in even the most difficult figured material. And for years not weeks or months. So for me the argument that they spend more time in service kinda dull vrs actually sharp is a mute point as I rarely depend on either a jointer or planer to give me a finished cut. Be it carbide insert or straight/Tersa if I’m getting tear out I change or rotate. In the case of Tersa I get weeks or a few months depending before I get tear out in non figured material much less. With carbide insert I get more like 8-16 months if not more before getting tear out in highly figured material. So clearly carbide wins if you take into account life of blade regarding mediocre sharpness service life and add to that I get many more months even in figured material with carbide insert.

My two cents and some will not like me saying so. But pros I think have a attitude with insert as they are seen as a hobby gimmicky thing. And Honestly they might be right from that perspective as if it ain’t broke don’t fix it with and surely not with something more complicated. Changing or rotating inserts is a royal pain in the rear when you have like 100 of them. Getting tear out with a straight knife and a Tersa head is easy peasy, change them out for the intended important cuts “2 min tops” then throw the dull ones back in for general processing.

Having had and having both and using one machine in a combined hobby pro setting and one in a only pro setting i side with straight knives also but only Tersa as I’m not gonna go through setting knifes or sharpening jigs and 30 minutes down time vrs 3 minutes down time. I don’t do enough production to care about buying new knives 3-4 times a year max.

I can see in a hobby setting the allure of carbide as you will pretty much never change them and never get tear out in even highly figured wood. Sure you will get more scalloping sharp or dull than straight knives but you gonna hand plain or sand that out regardless so again a mute point. For hobby the win imop goes to insert. But not really as changing Tersa knives and the cost is also a mute point. So then I am right back to straight Tersa.

As for width well that’s personal also but I would loath using anything less than 16”. I regularly even as a cabinet maker use 16” of width. Do I do it everyday, nope. But enough throughout a year that I would not want to be without it. Table tops, bench seats whatever kind of lamination and it just means fewer glue joints and or being able to glue a few boards then re joint and plane so you last glue up can come out nearly perfect regarding alignment and flatness.

Do you need the 20” of my Martin. No not really, the length in my case yes all the time. But again this depends on what you build. Honestly my favorite part of such a large machine is that as I’m processing material “sticks” I can pile them up on the portion “often large portion” of the machine I’m not using. It also gives me one more perfectly flat reference point in the shop to check my work.

My opinion is purchase the biggest machine you can afford and not crowd yourself out of valuable real estate.









Darcy,
you are going against the grain a bit with your hatred of the carbide inserts. What’s your beef with them?

[Carl Crout]

I don't know how many times I have seen folks express this. I worked off a nice little Jet 6" for many years until I stepped up and order an 8" (Grizzly 490X) Christmas 2017. It has been a wonderful improvement over the little Jet but now seems like everytime I'm in the shop there is a 9" or 10" piece that needs flattened. Geez, just can't win. I'm eye balling 12"ers but it's a pretty strong step up in price from an 8". One thing I've learned with the 8", I will never go back to a straight knife unit. Sprial cut is just so sweet.

Just take the guard off, turn the board around and joint the other inch or two. If you only occasionally have a board I see no reason to buy a larger jointer

[jack duren]

I'm happy with straight blades. Had inserts at work.and worked fine, straight blades work fine. Depends on the tool, individual and it's use..

I've seen people on the forum buy insert cutters just because everyone said buy insert cutters. Luckily I was a cabinet maker before the internet...

[julian abram]

I feel like I should clarify my comment on not going back to straight knives. I would have no problem with owning a Tersa or other large head straight knife models. I'm only speaking from experience as a hobbyist with these smaller model jointers and lunch box planers. I did consider going the combination J/P route a couple years ago. Since space was not an issue, I went stand alone direction with a 15" Grizzly floor planer and the 8" jointer. I could back track and sell both, then purchase a Hammer, MM or etc. But here is an issue I wrestled with 2 years ago. The lack of local sales and service. I don't exactly live anywhere near a metro area. Where do I get help with parts, service, advise and just friendly questions answered on these European machines? But I live 2 hours from Springfield Grizzly.

[Patrick Walsh]

Honestly I think it’s the same anywhere you are. It’s been my experience that maintaining or fixing machinery is a skill and task that as woodworkers needs to develop along side you skills making things of wood.

And honestly if you buy a lemmon your gonna have a hard time getting any manufacture to really tend to the problem without incurring some kind of cost.


I feel like I should clarify my comment on not going back to straight knives. I would have no problem with owning a Tersa or other large head straight knife models. I'm only speaking from experience as a hobbyist with these smaller model jointers and lunch box planers. I did consider going the combination J/P route a couple years ago. Since space was not an issue, I went stand alone direction with a 15" Grizzly floor planer and the 8" jointer. I could back track and sell both, then purchase a Hammer, MM or etc. But here is an issue I wrestled with 2 years ago. The lack of local sales and service. I don't exactly live anywhere near a metro area. Where do I get help with parts, service, advise and just friendly questions answered on these European machines? But I live 2 hours from Springfield Grizzly.

[Derek Cohen]

The downside to carbide insert is that at least 1/2 their working life is spent slightly dull. I combat this on my Tersa head by keeping sharp knives handy and using my fuller set for most work. Swap
to good knives for finish cuts. On a spiral the options are to either turn the carbides sooner or deal with result of full cutters longer.

Straight knives can be sharpened much more often, so while they’re more setup work they do have a practical benefit.

Brian, do you finish off the thicknesser/planer? If not, what is the point of a straight blade which wears faster? I work with interlocked timber and it is rare I find any tearout with my “dull” carbide inserts. The finish may not be as bright as off a straight blade, but I use planes mostly, and sometimes a sander, to finish. I am interested to hear why you find straight blades an advantage, especially when they require sharpening as frequently as you mention.

Regards from a freezing day walking around Prague

Derek (thawing out now)

[Ray Newman]

Once again today, I agree with Jim Becker. Right now I have a GEE TECH 15" planer (straight knives) and a JET 8" jointer with Tersa knives in my shop.

If starting out or upgrading, I would definitely look into a jointer/planer for the reasons Jim Becker mentioned, with careful consideration as to how easy and how long it took to mover from one operation to the other as well as the ease and amount of effort to adjust the depth of the cut, esp. on the planer for stock of various thicknesses.

[John TenEyck]

I feel like I should clarify my comment on not going back to straight knives. I would have no problem with owning a Tersa or other large head straight knife models. I'm only speaking from experience as a hobbyist with these smaller model jointers and lunch box planers. I did consider going the combination J/P route a couple years ago. Since space was not an issue, I went stand alone direction with a 15" Grizzly floor planer and the 8" jointer. I could back track and sell both, then purchase a Hammer, MM or etc. But here is an issue I wrestled with 2 years ago. The lack of local sales and service. I don't exactly live anywhere near a metro area. Where do I get help with parts, service, advise and just friendly questions answered on these European machines? But I live 2 hours from Springfield Grizzly.


That's why I recommend buying used. Warranties, after sales service, spare parts, is a crap shoot and generally a frustrating process with the best of companies. You plunk down serious money only to find a damaged or otherwise defective machine inside that ugly crate, and then have to deal with repair (which you will being doing) or replacement (last resort for the company). Better to buy a used machine. You get to inspect and run it before plunking down your money. It will be a lot less money, too, and the seller will often throw in the accessories for it for free or at similar deep discount.

I have a shop full of mostly used machines. Some are as old as I am, have needed fewer repairs than me, and will outlive me by far. I've never had a serious failure and none I couldn't deal with myself or through a local motor shop, etc. The stationary machines you want are made like battle ships. Not much important ever breaks or goes bad. Even the lighter duty ones like Hammer, Jet, etc. will last a lifetime or two. At one half or often much less the pirce of a new machine it's hard not to give them a serious look, first.

John

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy,
you are going against the grain a bit with your hatred of the carbide inserts. What’s your beef with them?

I think they are an expense that isn't necessary for most applications.

I do not really care for the little square inserts and the stupid little screws. Wait until you have to install or rotate a couple hundred, that's easily 4+ hours of work.

Applications where I like carbide (but by carbide I mean something like the Newman quiet cut head) facers, first bottom head and first inside head on a moulder, double surfacers where I am sending glued up panels through (like my big whitney s970) widebelt sanders with carbide heads.

I like the idea of tersa, I think the knives are way over priced.

I can change knives in my 30" jointer in 20 minutes with a stick of wood with two pencil Mark's on it. I can grind the knives in my big buss planers right in the machine.

I have installed many Hermance heads for people, it's their money and I will gladly do it as I like feeding my family.

The common consensus is that carbide inserts are quicker to change/rotate than dealing with straight knives is far from the truth.

[mreza Salav]

went from a 6" J to a 14" J/P combo. quite happy with it (only a few times had larger board). Kick myself for not picking up a 20" J/P that came up at an auction 3 hours away from me about 4 years ago (I was in the middle of a move and packing and moving the house AND the shop).

[David Kumm]

For those with insert heads, how often does the carbide nick? I have a Byrd on a small delta planer ( good upgrade because lower end machines have either poorly designed or lack chipbreakers and pressure bar all together ) but only use it for small clean pieces. The large machines are straight knife or Tersa. Shifting knives is easy. If carbide nicks, does rotating to fresh carbide cause visible lines and do you mark the edges to keep track of the edges used? Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Dave,

I only turn mine all at once.

Just like when you get a nick in any other knife I just consider it to be “it is what it is” I at least wan to be able to move them all at once and know everything is fresh. I’m not gonna get into rotating one then having to keep track and maybe replace just that one if I want to rotate to all new and fresh.

Again it’s a jointer or a planer and I don’t ever think or expect to get a fished product off the machine.

I am very much in the corner with Derek “although I choose Tersa at this point” what a straight nite had over a insert knife that cuts fine even dull can only be that it can be changed very very quick. That ability to change knives quickly if I have a problem I insist on addressing is worth foregoing the longevity of inserts and it’s capacity to deal with figured wood.

The amount of time it takes to flip all the knives on a cutter head means I’m pretty much only gonna do when I have no other option. Tersa is painless regarding switch over and Il l often do it just because I either don’t want to deal with tear out and or I don’t car about tear out as I’m starting say the milling process of 6/4 material to make finished 1” doors. Often I’ll do that over a couple weeks and 1-3 milling sessions. Sounds like a waste of time but I work the milling in between others lulls in the rest of my workflow and it assures I’m always busy when on the bosses clock.


For those with insert heads, how often does the carbide nick? I have a Byrd on a small delta planer ( good upgrade because lower end machines have either poorly designed or lack chipbreakers and pressure bar all together ) but only use it for small clean pieces. The large machines are straight knife or Tersa. Shifting knives is easy. If carbide nicks, does rotating to fresh carbide cause visible lines and do you mark the edges to keep track of the edges used? Dave

[Paul F Mills]

My first planer was a 735x. I had used my dad’s smaller 733? and knew I wanted something better. My first jointer was an 8” Powermatic with HH. I am very glad I bought both. I looked for used first and could not find anything so I bought new.

I had had issues with jointer power switch upon purchase and Woodcraft took care of it immediately. Very happy with their service.

I do kind of wish I had bought a combo unit to start with instead of individual units. The wider jointer would be the main benefit, but my understanding is that most have shorter tables than a standalone jointer.

[Jim Becker]

Paul, it's true that most J/Ps have shorter tables than big stand-alone machines. But honestly, unless someone is regularly needing to make very long stock pristinely straight, it's not really a problem at all. If I'm skim planing rough, long material I'll employ auxiliary support but I find that the high-majority of the time, I'm milling component sized stock for which the table lengths of my J/P are more than adequate. I actually plan my work flow that way on purpose. I've only had one project in the past year where I had to actually build something with really long stock and I made do with roller stands very carefully setup while face jointing and edging. Otherwise, I rarely process a board more than six feet or so long.

[Derek Cohen]

The wider jointer would be the main benefit, but my understanding is that most have shorter tables than a standalone jointer.

Paul, the shorter length of the combo jointer tables has never been an issue for me. I build medium-large furniture designs in solid wood only, but these are rarely made from single pieces. A table top would be the exception, but I rarely make diningroom tables - and if I did, I’d use extensions. For most, the rough sawn timber sections are broken down prior to jointing. That is both economical of the timber thickness, and more manageable as well. The Hammer has no difficulty managing this. Plus, as mentioned, it has a facility of adding extensions. I rarely have felt the need.

Jim and I have expressed the same thoughts here.

Regards from a cold Prague

Derek

[Stewart Lang]

I’m gonna weigh in on this spiral vs. straight knife debate, as I’m very much for the spiral head.

I’ve had several straight knife jointers. Sure you can change and align those 3 knives quicker than changing 162 spiral carbide inserts, (30 mins vs. 4 hours for me) however because those inserts are carbide, they last probably 10-15x as long as HSS knives.

To give a real life example, I need to sharpen my knives in my jointer about every month. I change the inserts in my spiral head planer about every year or two. So over time, you spend more time on a straight knife head (12x 30 mins vs 4 hours, you can do the math). In addition to the fact that every time you change them, it’s a variable trying to get them all on the same height again.

I’m sure a Tersa head eliminates a lot of this and probably brings straight knives very close to a spiral head. But I’d think the issue still remains of can you get a year or two out of Tersa knives? I think Tersa makes carbide knives, but then you still don’t have the “shear” cutting ability of a true shelix spiral head. In addition, a large shelix head can have up to 6 or 8 “spirals” (my planer has 6). Which means a lot less wear on each insert vs. someone running a 2 or 3 knife head. Which again equates to inserts lasting a lot longer.

I feel spiral heads are cheaper as well. I send my straight knives in to get sharpened. $10 shipping, $30 sharpening, $10 return shipping. 12x $50 = $600. 162 carbide inserts run about $450-500. Oh wait. I can get 4 sides out of my inserts. Suddenly it’s $600 x 4 = $2400 vs $450-500. Sure you can buy a machine to sharpen them yourself, make a jig, but how much is your time worth? If it takes you an hour to sharpen, that’s still $30-50 depending on what an hour in your shop costs.

I run a professional shop, and honestly I have no reason to ever switch to straight or Tersa head.

[Larry Edgerton]

I will take straight knives any day over carbide inserts and those stupid screws.

My poor 30" jointer only has two knives...

I agree. But I will stick to Tersa. I run carbide straight knives in my jointer, but if I buy a new one that will be Tersa as well.

[Curt Harms]

..................................................
I do kind of wish I had bought a combo unit to start with instead of individual units. The wider jointer would be the main benefit, but my understanding is that most have shorter tables than a standalone jointer.

One rule of thumb I've seen is max length of stock that can be comfortably jointed is 1.5 to 2 times the length of the tables. My J/P has 55" tables. 55 x 1.5=82.5 inches or just under 7 feet. I generally cut stock to rough length before flattening - less waste that way - so 7 feet is enough for my purposes.

[David Zaret]

i have a 530mm jointer (21"), and i run carbide tersas in it, and never would go back to spiral/inserts. the machine prior to this had inserts, and it was fine, but the cut quality was unquestionably inferior to sharp tersas, and the time to set the tersa knives is negligible. the downside, of course, is that carbide tersas are very expensive.

we have a new planer, an SCM Invincible 25", with four tersas, also carbide... and we barely need to sand even figured material that comes out the back.

tersas are wonderful when sharp... but steel tersas dull rather fast. the upside is that the time to change them is trivial, the downside is that they are disposable (except the carbides), and don't last very long. but, the results from sharp blades is almost unparalleled.

--- dz

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m also pretty happy with Teresa’s, my change interval is good with carbides and making the exchange in 2 minutes is nice.

[Joe Calhoon]

Another one in the Tersa Camp here. I ran and sharpened straight HSS planer and jointer knives the first 25 years of my career and would never go back. The cut and finish quality quality is amazing and sometimes wonder why I have a wide belt.

I think large mills that kick out thousands of linear feet per day still use HSS with on board sharpening still prefer that but it’s a different world than home shops and small pro shops doing high end work.

[David Kumm]

The problem when buying used is that TERSA machines are rare, mainly 20 year or newer Euro which limits choices. Most old high quality machines were straight knife. You can't swap to Tersa. Terminus straight knife heads are available but cost as much as swapping to insert. A used 12-16" cast iron jointer with straight knives goes for 2500-5000 depending on luck and condition. The head will add 1000-3000 depending on machine and if direct drive. A Tersa Euro jointer of similar condition will go in the 4500-7500 range or higher. For me, the question is if insert heads are worth the upcharge on a jointer in a low volume shop.

Planers on the other hand can be found in Tersa easier than insert on the used market and the upcharge for Tersa is much less. A 20" Tersa planer of the SCM, SAC, Griggio level of quality can be found in the 4-5000 range. It is pretty hard to find an insert head planer of similar quality for that price point. A new SCM or Felder 900 planer with an insert head would be well over 10K so Tersa can be a good deal on a used planer. Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

My issue with inserts is the tearing they cause of softer woods. I occassionally get sections of poplar and pine that compresses and leaves a rough surface. I don't get that with carbide shear heads or hss.

As for jointer size, I have a stack of 20"+ wide boards next to my 16" jointer. Seems as though until you have a 24 or 30 you will always have a board or three that are wider than the jointer.

[John TenEyck]

For a hobbiest like the OP, and me, time is often in greater supply than money. Used straight knife jointers are often available at exceptional prices which make them very attractive. On both the machines I've owned changing the knives takes less than 30 minutes, start to finish. I sharpen the set I took out when I feel like it. I have a knife grinder and it takes about 30 minutes total to sharpen the 3 knives. So the total time to change the knives is an hour and the cost is essentially $0. Before I got the knife grinder I used water stones which took about an hour. I change the knives maybe twice a year. To me, two hours a year to change and sharpen knives is perfectly acceptable "payment" for the low price I paid for a used straight knife machine.

John

[Paul F Mills]

Jim, Derek, and Curt,
It sounds like I should have looked more at combos units before buying the 8”. People at two shops suggested that since I already had the 735, I should buy a separate jointer. Since buying the jointer in November, I have jointed some 70-80” boards because i wanted continuos grain wrapping around the box, but I guess I could have done this with shorter beds and more planning.

[ChrisA Edwards]

The A3-31 allows you to put extension tables on both the infeed and outfeed. I have just the one extension table, but with two, you get almost 10 feet of support.

I had a Jet 6" jointer and a DeWalt 735 prior to buying the A3-31. Both tools performed well for my hobbyist needs, but the A3-31 is a major step up and tables up about the same floor space as my old Jet jointer.

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/ExtensionTable1_zps9whornec.jpg

[Jim Becker]

There are a lot of myths and "personal opinions" about tools like J/P combos out there. Some are semi-valid, some are exaggerated, but most "objections" or limitations can be easily mitigated with a little forethought. In an idea world, we'd all have huge shops and be able to fit big iron separates for every function. But reality isn't like that. Combos can bridge the gap between space and capacity really nicely. It's worked for me for sure. Of course, it's perfectly ok for anyone to prefer separates, too! Paul, don't lament buying that nice 8" jointer. Use it for what it does best...making lumber flat and straight. It's a critical tool, IMHO.

[Scott Bernstein]

I’ll chime in, too. Like many I started with a 6” jointer and it worked great (Grizzly, helical head). I used hand planes, planer jigs in my 13” benchtop planer, and a large-panel router jig for various projects with larger boards that were too big to face-joint with my 6” jointer. All this worked and got the job done, although not particularly efficient or straightforward. Although I’m not a pro (or even an especially talented amateur) my time in the shop is limited and so being efficient is important. So I upgraded to one of the combo J/P machines (a Hammer 16” model) and it’s been eye-opening. It is so much more efficient and I would say liberating – since I don’t have to plan ahead or take out special jigs for wide boards. The finish on the pieces is great right out of the machine with the spiral head and the table extensions are fantastic when I have really long boards. I considered stand-alone 8-12” “American style” jointers, but very happy with the combo unit and would not hesitate to purchase it again. The 16” wasn’t all that much more then the 12”, but I figured I will never have to upgrade….

[jack duren]

I’m gonna weigh in on this spiral vs. straight knife debate, as I’m very much for the spiral head.

I’ve had several straight knife jointers. Sure you can change and align those 3 knives quicker than changing 162 spiral carbide inserts, (30 mins vs. 4 hours for me) however because those inserts are carbide, they last probably 10-15x as long as HSS knives.

To give a real life example, I need to sharpen my knives in my jointer about every month. I change the inserts in my spiral head planer about every year or two. So over time, you spend more time on a straight knife head (12x 30 mins vs 4 hours, you can do the math). In addition to the fact that every time you change them, it’s a variable trying to get them all on the same height again.

I’m sure a Tersa head eliminates a lot of this and probably brings straight knives very close to a spiral head. But I’d think the issue still remains of can you get a year or two out of Tersa knives? I think Tersa makes carbide knives, but then you still don’t have the “shear” cutting ability of a true shelix spiral head. In addition, a large shelix head can have up to 6 or 8 “spirals” (my planer has 6). Which means a lot less wear on each insert vs. someone running a 2 or 3 knife head. Which again equates to inserts lasting a lot longer.

I feel spiral heads are cheaper as well. I send my straight knives in to get sharpened. $10 shipping, $30 sharpening, $10 return shipping. 12x $50 = $600. 162 carbide inserts run about $450-500. Oh wait. I can get 4 sides out of my inserts. Suddenly it’s $600 x 4 = $2400 vs $450-500. Sure you can buy a machine to sharpen them yourself, make a jig, but how much is your time worth? If it takes you an hour to sharpen, that’s still $30-50 depending on what an hour in your shop costs.

I run a professional shop, and honestly I have no reason to ever switch to straight or Tersa head.

4x50 not 12x50 . $200 not $600. Vs 4x on inserts for $600.. I've used both .only care if there in the SCM on a 60" planer sander. Wait.... there wasn't an option..

[glenn bradley]

I don't know how many times I have seen folks express this. I worked off a nice little Jet 6" for many years until I stepped up and order an 8" (Grizzly 490X) Christmas 2017. It has been a wonderful improvement over the little Jet but now seems like everytime I'm in the shop there is a 9" or 10" piece that needs flattened. Geez, just can't win. I'm eye balling 12"ers but it's a pretty strong step up in price from an 8". One thing I've learned with the 8", I will never go back to a straight knife unit. Sprial cut is just so sweet.

Mirrors my experience precisely. I have found that for me, in practice the need for more than 8 inches is really quite rare in the grand scheme of things. At the time I’m holding a 9 inch board in my hand it seems to be very present.