Accuracy of handsaws

[Jonathan Elliott]

Hi,

In the recent handsaw threads, some folks have mentioned choosing to use handsaws when cuts really matter. Tom King posted some examples of trimming cedar shakes and a porch railing.

I'm curious, due to my lack of experience, why some find a handsaw to be more accurate than a powered miter saw. It seems that the marking would be the critical part. Sawing to that marked line, whether with a handsaw or powered miter saw, seems like it would produce similar results based on skill level. At my skill level, the powered miter saw produces more consistent results. I'm curious what trouble or disappointment those that prefer the handsaw find with the powered miter saw. I'm not interested in a discussion of preferred work methods or any arguments, curiosity truly begs the question rather than a "right" or "wrong" approach.

Thanks!
Jonathan

[Doug Dawson]

Hi,

In the recent handsaw threads, some folks have mentioned choosing to use handsaws when cuts really matter. Tom King posted some examples of trimming cedar shakes and a porch railing.

I'm curious, due to my lack of experience, why some find a handsaw to be more accurate than a powered miter saw. It seems that the marking would be the critical part. Sawing to that marked line, whether with a handsaw or powered miter saw, seems like it would produce similar results based on skill level. At my skill level, the powered miter saw produces more consistent results. I'm curious what trouble or disappointment those that prefer the handsaw find with the powered miter saw. I'm not interested in a discussion of preferred work methods or any arguments, curiosity truly begs the question rather than a "right" or "wrong" approach.


If I really wanted super precision, and I had a lot of identical parts to cut, I'd use a crosscut sled on the table saw. But if I only have a couple of pieces to do, a hand saw is faster (and cuts to the line just as well IMO) when you include setup time. A miter saw is louder and dustier then both, and is intermediate in setup time. Of course it helps to be able to cut a straight line.

[Tom M King]

I answered your question, but somehow got the threads mixed up, and put my answers, along with some pictures, in the other thread on "taper in handsaws". Sorry, I think I got mixed up when I went looking for pictures.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm curious what trouble or disappointment those that prefer the handsaw find with the powered miter saw.

My trouble is there isn't a powered miter saw in my shop to compare to my handsaws. Like Doug mentioned, the quiet nature of the handsaw and a quick set up has left me not wanting a powered miter saw.

Once one has some experience a handsaw's results and consistency can rival that of a powered set up:

422218

The knifed line is visible all the way around this piece with a fairly smooth surface left by the saw.

jtk

[Thomas Wilson]

Power miter is faster and more accurate for me. Every handsaw I own drifts to the right. I have to ‘play the slice’ as golfers say and the use a shooting plane to straighten things up to get comparable accuracy with hand tools. (Dear Knowledgable Kneanderthals: Please do not try to help me with my handsawing technique. I am being facetious about it being the saws’ fault and I do know how to saw.)

[steven c newman]

There are some Mitersaws out there....that do not make a lot of noise....
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And are "cordless" Set up time? mark a line, make a cut....
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As for handsaws?
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Atkins No. 65, 8ppi, 26" length....trimmimg Ash
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There is a D-8 in the shop...
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With 11ppi. 26" length. Makes a bit finer cut cut than the #65....

422224
When a plank comes down to the shop....sometimes the ONLY way to cut it down to size is with a handsaw....
422225
This is what I use for dovetails, and finger joints....and even a tenon or 2....

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

Hi,

In the recent handsaw threads, some folks have mentioned choosing to use handsaws when cuts really matter. Tom King posted some examples of trimming cedar shakes and a porch railing.

I'm curious, due to my lack of experience, why some find a handsaw to be more accurate than a powered miter saw. It seems that the marking would be the critical part. Sawing to that marked line, whether with a handsaw or powered miter saw, seems like it would produce similar results based on skill level. At my skill level, the powered miter saw produces more consistent results. I'm curious what trouble or disappointment those that prefer the handsaw find with the powered miter saw. I'm not interested in a discussion of preferred work methods or any arguments, curiosity truly begs the question rather than a "right" or "wrong" approach.

Thanks!
Jonathan


With limited disposable funds available in retirement I'm not able to purchase the mega-bucks powered miter saws that have next to little or no play on the blade and/or that has a blade that is smooth cutting. Not to mention the noise and dust extraction required. I'm happy with my Japanese saws that I use while seated and sawing vertically and giving me more accurate results. It is also more transportable and takes up lots less space.

[Jim Matthews]

To achieve mechanical advantage, lateral travel of the sawplate must approach zero. Jeff Miller built a device to make cutting tenons in this manner.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/jeff-miller%E2%80%99s-incredible-tenon-jig/

In practice, it's easier to freehand cut and plane (or chisel) the fit for precision.

A properly tuned saw should track straight in most North American wood species. Saws that "wander" might need a tune-up.

[Andrew Seemann]

I prefer to do precision cuts on the powered miter saw or miter gauge on the table saw. It is just quicker and more accurate for me. I do occasionally break down long boards with a handsaw, for the same reason, quicker and more accurate. I like hand tools, but I don't feel the need to use them just to use them. I'll occasionally do some handsawing to stay in practice though, just not where I need to hit a 1/32.

I tend to do more handsawing when I am doing field repairs at the family biz. It's just faster and easier to grab a hand saw or the Swede saw to cut a couple 2x4s rather than drag out the miter saw, extension cords, set up, take down, etc. Plus there, accuracy isn't quite as important. Most things are rough carpentry and working to +/- 1/8.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

For as much satisfaction as I get from hand tool work, I’m in Andrew’s camp on this one. Except for dovetail or mortise and tenon joinery, I don’t do much hand sawing anymore. My CSMS and radial arm saws are precisely tuned; with their Forrest blades the cuts are as smooth and accurate as if they were planed with a shooting board. In other words, no additional fitting or clean-up is required.

[Tom M King]

I put my post, that were supposed to be a reply to this thread, in the wrong thread. Here is a link to the page in the other thread that has my replies to this:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278963-Taper-in-hand-saws-and-panel-saw-plates-how-much-difference-does-it-make/page2

[Jim Koepke]

I put my post, that were supposed to be a reply to this thread, in the wrong thread. Here is a link to the page in the other thread that has my replies to this:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278963-Taper-in-hand-saws-and-panel-saw-plates-how-much-difference-does-it-make/page2

Some of the images in your post reminded me of cutting the ends from the top of the legs of saw horses and saw benches after assembly. Also the bottoms of the legs were marked and cut after assembly. That is a compound angle that would might be difficult to set up on a miter saw when trying to support a cumbersome item.

With a hand saw all one needs is a line and cutting small pieces can be unsafe on a power saw.

This is the build of one saw horse:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?146777

Dang, that was 9 years ago. All the saw horses in the picture are still in use. The ones that spend winters out side are getting a little ragged. Maybe it is time for a coat of paint.

jtk

[ken hatch]

As Jim points out not all cuts can or should be made with power saws. If you go to the trouble of making a 1st class cut the cut off a back saw or even a hand saw will be cleaner than that from a power saw (provided correct TPI for the cut). I have no problem using power saws for "rough" work but if I want a clean joint if will be done without power.

ken

[Jonathan Elliott]

Thank you to all that have responded and shared your experiences. I'm really enjoying the different perspectives. As mentioned in the initial post, I currently fall in the power-saw-for-accurate-cuts camp but look forward to having the confidence to use a handsaw when it really counts, I can see the advantage.

Jonathan

[Laurent Marshall]

Thanks for posting this one Jonathan - it's something I've been wondering about as well. For me, achieving consistency and acceptable accuracy with my hand saws is a challenge. I have access to some power tools (none mine, and with a possible move in the future for me, I won't have access to these forever!), including a sliding compound miter saw, table saw, and band saw, which all produce very accurate and consistent results with the right set up. The compound miter saw needing the least set up for square cross cuts. Of course, without a jointer, the final accuracy of the cut depends on me jointing an edge straight and square by hand, which I feel pretty confident about at this point.

As far as cross-cutting with hand saws goes, I've yet to have that "aha!" moment. Maybe my expectations for accuracy and consistency are too high from using the power tools? Right now I'm working on acquiring some better saws, and learning to sharpen. I also need to get more practice with the saws I do have.

[steven c newman]

Have always found the accuracy of a saw depended on the user's skill. They do not make a "Smart Saw" that is self-guiding.......the operator is the one doing the guiding. Seems to be rather poor form to blame the saw, as it goes only where the hands using it tells it to go.

[Phil Mueller]

Hand saws can, of course, be extremely accurate. Takes a well set up saw and good technique. The well set up saw part, I have. The technique is getting better with every cut. When I’m on I can close my eyes and saw a perfectly straight line. When not, a few swipes with a shooting board cleans things up. I can’t remember the last time I used a power tool to crosscut. The exception were some 3” table legs that would be too much for the shooting board, so used a power chop saw.

Rip cuts are pretty much the same; saw, plane, move on. The old contractors saw comes out for narrow piece rip cuts 1/4” or so and less, because it’s just more accurate and less risk of wasting stock than I can achieve with handsaw and planes.

Now my situation is likely different that most, given an extremely small shop. If I want to use the contractors saw or miter saw, it’s dragging them out from the corner they live in, and being prepared to clean up a big mess after...if a lot to do, they need to be carried outside. So the effort is high and often not justified versus handsaws and planes. If I had a larger shop and readily available power tools with good dust collection, it would likely be different. But then again, I do enjoy using a nice handsaw.

[Andrew Seemann]

Have always found the accuracy of a saw depended on the user's skill. They do not make a "Smart Saw" that is self-guiding.......the operator is the one doing the guiding. Seems to be rather poor form to blame the saw, as it goes only where the hands using it tells it to go.

I'd agree, assuming a saw is set up well enough. If not, you spend a lot of time fighting the saw. I know this, as I had one that always pulled to the right, because the set wasn't even on it. Since I was to lazy to fix it, I fought with it for a few years before finally getting around to correcting it:)

Fortunately it was my site box saw, so I was normally just using it for rough carpentry. Precision wasn't that critical, hence waiting a few years to fix it.

[Brian Holcombe]

The accuracy of both power and hand saws depends on how well they’re setup and the user.

[Jim Koepke]

They do not make a "Smart Saw" that is self-guiding......

It's called a miter box.

If the box & saw aren't properly adjusted, sharpened and set it can self-guide the user into sloppy work.

jtk

[steven c newman]

The "guide" for a saw like this..
422368
Is usually either my left thumbnail, or the knuckle right behind the thumbnail. If a saw starts to "drift" in a cut...lower the saw angle as low as you can go, and allow the rest of the cut to steer the blade to straight, again.
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"Sloyd" used to teach how to set a try square along the saw, to guide the cut....keeps the plate vertical. Easier to just use the thumbnail.
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There are other "guides" out there.
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Mitre box trimming off a bit off the end....
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Doesn't require a shooting board, either.

[lowell holmes]

A Swanson speed square makes a good cut by placing it on a board and place a saw against it to guide the saw.
I will scribe a line with a knife against the square and chisel a bevel with wood chisel.
Try it. The saw rides against the resulting shoulder.

[Jason Buresh]

I have a power miter saw and recently it only gets used for rough construction projects. For me it's about efficiency in the shop. I do not have dedicated dust collection piping in my shop and if I have a few cuts to make it is far faster to grab a hand saw and get to work than to hook up the dust port, set up the saw, etc. If I have a lot of repeated cuts to make I usually throw my crosscut sled on the table saw because my dust collector is usually hooked up to it. I also made a mitre sled for my table saw I use for 45 degree cuts. Recently I find my power miter saw used either for construction or repeated odd angle cuts.

[michael langman]

I put a wide plank red oak floor in my living room,7" wide planks, 8-14 feet long; and had to cut the ends square and perpindicular, to get a seamless transition from one board to the next.
I bought a reconditioned makita ls1013fl compound dual bevel compound miter saw. After fixing the problems of why it was reconditioned, and then setting it up, I cut glass smooth, tear free, perfectly straight right angles, on the ends of all of my boards without any further adjustments.
I coudl never do that with a hand saw.

The mounting holes for the back fence were too small on the fence to get a square cut with the saw when I got it. I had to open the hole up on one end to get enough movement of the fence to bring it in square to the blade.

[alan west]

A sharp handsaw will cut more accurate, safer and cleaner than a powered saw, with significant practice on the handsaw. I also think a handsaw is quicker if you factor in set up time for the powered saw. I think handsaws fell out of favor due to the skill that has to be learned for use and sharpening.

I am talking about crosscuts here. Long rip cuts are much faster and accurate with a powered saw.

[steven c newman]

Ok....back when I was in Junior High School ( late 60s...1960s) we were given a list of wood joints to make, with just hand tools, and were graded on how well they were done....before any power tools could be touched....even though the Ind. Arts shop had a full range of power tool made by Rockwell. We were taught how to use the hand tools, and also were given Drafting classes.

To do most of the wood joints in the "test", we had to at least learn HOW to saw. How to lay out a wood joint. Learned how to not only hold the saws, but how to guide them in the cuts.
All done with 3/4" x 4" x 12" Pine. Including mitered 1/2 lap joints.

Was a LONG time ago....even the school building is long gone.....the factory in Bellefontaine, OH from where all the Rockwell power tools came from? Still there, used as a recycle/storage company....Rockwell moved out long ago...