shaper questions - offset fence

[David Zaret]

we recently upgraded shapers, and i'm having a few issues that i'm hoping the hive mind can assist with.

this is a Martin T12 with the digital aigner offset fence - i've used this offset fence on other shapers for years, it's not a new piece of equipment. what i'm finding now is that when i'm running sticking cuts, with the feeder toed out towards the offset fence, I'm getting a strange divot in the part a few inches back from the start - it appears to be catching one of the feeder wheels and somehow kicking towards to the cutter, away from the offset fence, 1/4" or so, causing a concave divot in the edge. the piece appears to be shoved against the outfeed fence, there's nothing obvious going on (though obviously there is). the cutter is a Zuani cope/stick set.

my gut feel is that it's an issue with the feeder alignment, but it looks ... ok to me, and attempts to tweak it don't seem to help.

so, with this as the backdrop, i have two questions:

1) how much toe-out should i be using with this feeder - let's say, with the feeder ends relative to the parallel offset fence, is 1/4" too much? not enough?

2) how much downward pressure should i be using with this feeder? the feeder on the Martin has a height gauge in mm, and i have it pushing .... a few mm or so.

3) i would like to add pressure boards to the infeed and outfeed fences, but with the Martin it's not clear how to do so - we have the aigner fences on (and backed off the cut, obviously). should i look at attaching something to the infeed edge of the table? does anyone use pressure fingers, aiming out towards an offset fence, with the aigner fences?

thanks for any guidance.

--- dz

[brent stanley]

By offset fence, do you mean outboard fence?

Does the timing of the divot coincide with when the end of the piece meets a feeder wheel? Perhaps the last wheel is sagging down a bit or is misshapen and causes momentary resistance that results in the piece kicking out momentarily.

[Patrick Walsh]

Sounds to me like you have it set up as usual like a shaper to take a bit off the stick. So outfeed is set a whisper behind knife and infeed set a bit back from that.

I know at least for me when I’m struggling with sticking and cut quality and my fences are setup right it always the feeder not toed in correctly and or applying enough and or to much pressure.

I assume you checked to make sure everything on the new machine is flat. Also just not having a fresh perfectly jointed edge can cause issues or a slightest splinter on the leading edge.

Once you get it lied though it should be mindless..

[Joe Calhoon]

Dave,
Snipe at front of workpiece indicates entire fence needs to move back a bit. But you are saying the snipe is after it starts and the leading edge has no snipe?
Check all the basics first- With a straight edge check that the fence plates are coplaner when digital display is on 0. If not set fences correct and recalibrate the zero. Check that fence is calibrated to center of spindle. Cutter you are using is 130mm cutting circle so fence zero will be 65mm or 0 if you have programmed the cutter. T12 has a fence that is accurate to 100th mm and if getting snipe at either end you might have to move it just slightly to get no snipe. For example instead of 65mm might be 64.96 or something like that if fence needs to move back a hair.

But if you are getting snipe after it starts and hits the outfeed fence it could be the feeder.
First make sure feed wheels are flat across their width to the table. When you lower the feeder to the table the outfeed wheels should touch first by about 2mm or so. In other words the feeder is not exactly parallel to the cast table. For feeder height in relation to the workpiece usually 3 to 6mm - workpiece thickness is best. I set the readout on the Wegoma feeder so I just have to set it to workpiece thickness. Too much pressure can cause problems.

Toe in to the fence can be 5 to 8mm. This is pretty forgiving and some people go more. I normally center the feeder wheels on the shaft. 2 wheels feeding in and 2 outfeed.

I have set up a few Wegoma feeders with the smart stand and have found a few things. Sometimes they are not as tight as they should be when locked and will move. There are some adjustments for this. When you have it locked in place grab it and see if any movement. If so I will take some pictures when back in the shop to show the adjustments.
also if you are using the split wheels on the 2 center wheels they sometimes are slightly different diameter than the stock wheels on the ends. Don’t remember if Martin sends the split wheels on all four wheels.

let me know if any of this works.
Joe

[brent stanley]

It sounds to me like your outfeed roller is causing you some headache. Check too that the rollers are parallel to the table left to right and only a little toe down along the length of at all. The amount of toe-out (or in depending) is pretty forgiving but is usually somewhere around a few degrees. Your 1/4" should be just fine. I don't usually compress the wheels more than 5mm. I have a fence similar to the Aigner but use featherboards to help if needed. Some shop made narrow ones or magnetic if there's room. Aigner probably has a nifty Gizmo for this purpose that attaches to the main fence.

[Matt Tebo]

Dave,

If I understand you correctly, I think you’re using an outboard fence, not the factory fence with the aigner fence plates. It seems like you’re having an issue with the board pulling into the cutterhead and away from the out outboard fence.

If that’s the case, I am imagining you have the aigner centrex guard too. I can’t remember exactly if the plastic pressure fingers come with that guard or are aftermarket, but Joe would know for sure. This plastic device provides a light pressure against the outboard fence keeping what you describe from happening.

I don’t have the centrex guard but I have had great results with my homemade outboard fence and the mag switch feather boards. They work great and are 100% universal for all machines.

I hope I’ve understood your issue correctly.

Matt

[Joe Calhoon]

Matt, I think you are right. After re reading I think Dave is talking about the Aigner outboard fence. They call it a Thickness Stop.

I find when doing thicker workpieces 1 3/4” door parts and thicker you need spring pressure against the outboard fence. Otherwise the cutter wants to suck the piece in towards the start of the cut. Cabinet door parts you can get away without this pressure.
here is a video showing the Aigner pressure jaws putting pressure towards the outboard fence.

,https://youtu.be/usa_YmhWTpE

You can also use the infeed fence to keep pressure against the outboard fence. For this your fence and outboard fence need to be parallel and the S4S of parts accurate and consistent.

here is a Instagram link showing inside and outside profiling on the T12 with the outboard fence used for inside profiling.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B4pMVj7gv7y/?igshid=ookfa2y08ey8

swipe right to see all the pictures

[brent stanley]

Dave,

If I understand you correctly, I think you’re using an outboard fence, not the factory fence with the aigner fence plates. It seems like you’re having an issue with the board pulling into the cutterhead and away from the out outboard fence.

I
Matt

That's what I understood.

[David Zaret]

guys, sorry for the delay. first of all, yes, it's the aigner digital adjustable outboard fence - here's a link to a picture of my rather simple setup:

aigner outboard fence (https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0b5GNi8frFD2V;74C4F06A-EC73-4CDA-AB15-CD34997229B6)

the feeder has split wheels on all four, and joe, they are pretty much dead nuts flat to the table:

feeder wheels (https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0b5GNi8frFD2V;9156B635-450F-43F0-9F46-1F59B0217D7F)

the stock is definitely straight, S4S, and the fence edge is ... perfect. it has to be something with the feeder. i'm going to go back and study your responses, see if anything jumps out. thanks again.

-- dz

[Joe Calhoon]

Dave,
outboard setup is pretty simple and eliminates all the nuances of the split fence. Although with the accuracy of the T12 fence split fence setups are no problem.

I think pressure against the fence is good for the thicker parts. If you don’t have the setup for this you can turn the feeder more toward the outboard fence. Like 1/2” or more overall. Some shops do this instead of side pressure and seem to have luck with it. Will wear the wheels faster though.

[brent stanley]

guys, sorry for the delay. first of all, yes, it's the aigner digital adjustable outboard fence - here's a link to a picture of my rather simple setup:

aigner outboard fence (https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0b5GNi8frFD2V;74C4F06A-EC73-4CDA-AB15-CD34997229B6)

the feeder has split wheels on all four, and joe, they are pretty much dead nuts flat to the table:

feeder wheels (https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0b5GNi8frFD2V;9156B635-450F-43F0-9F46-1F59B0217D7F)

the stock is definitely straight, S4S, and the fence edge is ... perfect. it has to be something with the feeder. i'm going to go back and study your responses, see if anything jumps out. thanks again.

-- dz

That's exactly the settup I was picturing from your post, and it looks like there's plenty of material for the stock feeder to grab on to. Feather boards or similar pushing against the outboard fence wouldn't hurt of course but I've never needed it for wide stock the feeder can get a full purchase on with a lighter cut. I would check to see if the divot happens when the stock is just hitting the last wheel.

[Patrick Walsh]

Forgive me for interrupting or just tell me to go away “really” I get it.

But how do you setup a outboards fence for sticking. Like in the case of shaker style freeborn set that puts 3/8 groove in the material.

As I understand the outboard fence the material runs against this as apposed to the split fence. The split fence had a pressure bar that applies pressure back at the outboard fence.

So do you just move your split fence way back and inboard fence forward till the cutters at putting that 3/8 rebate in your workpiece.

This technique was explained to me by the seller of my t75 but he did it with a home made deal with a spring that put back pressure on everything and climb cut.

I’d like to get comfortable working with a back fence for sticking I suppose if for no other reason than another option. Normally I have zero issue doing stick cuts with a split fence setup to take a 32nd or so and the powerfeeder.

[brent stanley]

Forgive me for interrupting or just tell me to go away “really” I get it.

But how do you setup a outboards fence for sticking. Like in the case of shaker style freeborn set that puts 3/8 groove in the material.

As I understand the outboard fence the material runs against this as apposed to the split fence. The split fence had a pressure bar that applies pressure back at the outboard fence.

So do you just move your split fence way back and inboard fence forward till the cutters at putting that 3/8 rebate in your workpiece.

This technique was explained to me by the seller of my t75 but he did it with a home made deal with a spring that put back pressure on everything and climb cut.

I’d like to get comfortable working with a back fence for sticking I suppose if for no other reason than another option. Normally I have zero issue doing stick cuts with a split fence setup to take a 32nd or so and the powerfeeder.

You've got the gist of it! There are always multiple ways to skin a cat, and the additional pressure against the outboard fence can happen in a number of different ways, but pressure against it usually cant hurt. No need to move the split fence any further back than necessary especially if it's required for guarding and dust collection.

It's quite quick to set up especially with templates for the various cutter/sticking width combinations that you can use to make sure the outboard is set at the right offset.

[David Zaret]

i think i know what's happening. i think that the board is hitting the split in the last (or perhaps third) feeder wheel, and due to the "lift" from the first few, the edge of the split is kicking the board temporarily towards the cutter before the material gets under the wheel. so, a few things:

1) i like those aigner plastic fingers - where and how do they mount to the fence? the video doesn't really show that.
2) i'll try backing off the feeder so only the "front half" of the split wheels contacts the material
3) joe - how do you mount the aigner outboard unit to the machine? do you have an aigner mounting bar in-between the two posts for the big outfeed extension?

thanks again guys.

--- dz

[David Zaret]

patrick - for what it's worth, and despite my recent issues, i would never go back to doing sticking cuts against the fence. this method effectively ensures there's no snipe, and, you only have to S3S the stock - the cut edge is removed entirely, and can be... rough. sticking is a breeze with an outboard fence.

that is, of course, unless your split feeder wheels (and your lack of experience) kick the stock back towards the cutter, causing a nice dip in your perfect cut.

--- dz




Forgive me for interrupting or just tell me to go away “really” I get it.

But how do you setup a outboards fence for sticking. Like in the case of shaker style freeborn set that puts 3/8 groove in the material.

As I understand the outboard fence the material runs against this as apposed to the split fence. The split fence had a pressure bar that applies pressure back at the outboard fence.

So do you just move your split fence way back and inboard fence forward till the cutters at putting that 3/8 rebate in your workpiece.

This technique was explained to me by the seller of my t75 but he did it with a home made deal with a spring that put back pressure on everything and climb cut.

I’d like to get comfortable working with a back fence for sticking I suppose if for no other reason than another option. Normally I have zero issue doing stick cuts with a split fence setup to take a 32nd or so and the powerfeeder.

[Joe Calhoon]

Keeping the fence close is good for dust collection, that’s the advantage fo the Aigner Pressure jaws. Early on I used the Weaver setup for outboard where you remove the fence to place spring hold downs for pressure. That setup was not good for dust collection.

Here are pictures of using the Aigner outboard setup on the T23. These are 4” thick window frame parts being machined in one pass. One picture shows the pressure jaws removed. If you have a heat gun these plexiglass Springs can be shop made easily.

422173
422174

[brent stanley]

patrick - for what it's worth, and despite my recent issues, i would never go back to doing sticking cuts against the fence. this method effectively ensures there's no snipe, and, you only have to S3S the stock - the cut edge is removed entirely, and can be... rough. sticking is a breeze with an outboard fence.

that is, of course, unless your split feeder wheels (and your lack of experience) kick the stock back towards the cutter, causing a nice dip in your perfect cut.

--- dz

Glazing bars with split wheels is a pain too!

[David Zaret]

joe - got it. looks as though i have a few more aigner things to purchase.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah joe it was the weaver setup.

He also had this dedicated mini shaper solely for sticking.

I’d like to at least give the back fence method a try when I get the new t23 if only for another tool in th toolbox.

Even sticking with the feeder I only s3s..

Well that’s not entirely true. That is how I was taught I tend to s4s even though I take that 32nd off as I find when it comes to gluing up my doors it’s so much more easy to get them consistently square. I just hate making anything not perfectly square. Really gets my goat to be out even a 64th as they add up..


Keeping the fence close is good for dust collection, that’s the advantage fo the Aigner Pressure jaws. Early on I used the Weaver setup for outboard where you remove the fence to place spring hold downs for pressure. That setup was not good for dust collection.

Here are pictures of using the Aigner outboard setup on the T23. These are 4” thick window frame parts being machined in one pass. One picture shows the pressure jaws removed. If you have a heat gun these plexiglass Springs can be shop made easily.

422173
422174

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm a back fence is the perfect setup for window mullions and or glazing bars.


Yet another good reason to get familiar.. funny how we all can just keep doing what it is we know as apposed to learn a new trick..


Glazing bars with split wheels is a pain too!

[brent stanley]

Hmm a back fence is the perfect setup for window mullions and or glazing bars.


Yet another good reason to get familiar.. funny how we all can just keep doing what it is we know as apposed to learn a new trick..

Yup! I use it a the time. I actually use the outboard fence on the shaper for bringing stock down to final width on a big job with miles to do because I don't have a power feeder on the bench saw yet.

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm

I don’t do miles of anything in my work but that is another viable logical use of a shaper.


Yup! I use it a the time. I actually use the outboard fence on the shaper for bringing stock down to final width on a big job with miles to do because I don't have a power feeder on the bench saw yet.

[Joe Calhoon]

joe - got it. looks as though i have a few more aigner things to purchase.

Dave, there are 2 ways to attach the Thickness stop to the pull out bar. When I get home I will get some pictures for you.

here is a example of some shop made springs a friend put on his SAC profiler
422175

[brent stanley]

Hmm

I don’t do miles of anything in my work but that is another viable logical use of a shaper.

I don't usually either but every now and then something comes along. I made reproduction wooden siding for half of a big old east coast house one time and that was a big job. Had to roll the small shaper outside to allow for the lengths. I couldn't use dust collection out there, so I had to clean up with a snow shovel! :)
B

[Joe Calhoon]

Hmm a back fence is the perfect setup for window mullions and or glazing bars.


Yet another good reason to get familiar.. funny how we all can just keep doing what it is we know as apposed to learn a new trick..

Patrick,
Yes the Weaver setup is only effective on a dedicated shaper. The Euro shapers and accessories are set up for quick change over. All my work is mostly short run and that works well with what I use.
I like the outboard fence for window parts and short parts. Doors I prefer the split fence so I don’t have to keep changing width of the outboard fence. For narrow bars the outboard fence can work with some modifications but I prefer a add on fence for the split fence. This fence removes 1 mm from the edge. Pictures should be self explaining.

422177
422178
422179

[Patrick Walsh]

Joe,

To date that is what I have done for window parts or in my case door parts for lites..

Man in anticipation of what I hope to be bringing home a T23 this thread is helping me spend spend spend.

The Aigner fences are a must this time as I said I would get them for my Z700 and never did. If I don’t get hem now I never will. Why I think they are a must I don’t know as they really are not but I really want them.

But now I think I have good use for the aigner back fence and centrex or whatever gadget it is that puts pressure back against the outboard fence.

Love these threads.

[James Biddle]

Hi Joe,
I'd like to buy that Aigner Pressure Jaw setup.

The Aigner part number for the Pressure Jaws appears to be 214 448 000 193 (my old 2014 catalog calls it 214 572 000 192).

That looks like it attaches to a pressure module that is used for all of the roller setups, right? We have one of those (214 526 000 192), will it work?

That in turn looks like it mounts to a Supporting Rail, part number 213 505 000 193, that attaches to the fences.

Is that all the parts required?






Keeping the fence close is good for dust collection, that’s the advantage fo the Aigner Pressure jaws. Early on I used the Weaver setup for outboard where you remove the fence to place spring hold downs for pressure. That setup was not good for dust collection.

Here are pictures of using the Aigner outboard setup on the T23. These are 4” thick window frame parts being machined in one pass. One picture shows the pressure jaws removed. If you have a heat gun these plexiglass Springs can be shop made easily.

422173
422174

[Jeff Duncan]

Lots of good info here already, but the one thing I do when I run into a situation like this is start basic. Turn off the machine, raise the feeder, then slide the workpiece in until you get to the exact spot where the problem happens. Just doing that will let you see where everything is at that point and usually yield the "aha" moment, and get you back on track. Trying to do it without is far more difficult.

Sounds like you've identified your problem already and luckily the solution is an easy one.

good luck,
JeffD

[brent stanley]

Lots of good info here already, but the one thing I do when I run into a situation like this is start basic. Turn off the machine, raise the feeder, then slide the workpiece in until you get to the exact spot where the problem happens. Just doing that will let you see where everything is at that point and usually yield the "aha" moment, and get you back on track. Trying to do it without is far more difficult.

Sounds like you've identified your problem already and luckily the solution is an easy one.

good luck,
JeffD

Exactly, good advice.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Joe,
I'd like to buy that Aigner Pressure Jaw setup.

The Aigner part number for the Pressure Jaws appears to be 214 448 000 193 (tel:214 448 000 193) (my old 2014 catalog calls it 214 572 000 192 (tel:214 572 000 192)).

That looks like it attaches to a pressure module that is used for all of the roller setups, right? We have one of those (214 526 000 192 (tel:214 526 000 192)), will it work?

That in turn looks like it mounts to a Supporting Rail, part number 213 505 000 193 (tel:213 505 000 193), that attaches to the fences.

Is that all the parts required?

Jim,
that is correct, 3 components to attach to the Aigner fences. Your Aigner fence will have hex screws to secure the vertical posts. I would suggest removing them as they are not needed for this operation and a pain to adjust. You do need them if ever pressing down from the posts.
i will PM you the latest price list with both current Martin and Aigner part numbers.

For attaching the Thickness stop to the shaper I would suggest the long Aigner bar attached to the pull out support. The pictures of my T26 show a long bar attached to the machine and a shorter bar attached to the pullout. I would just put the long bar on the pullout.
Aigner also sells a adapter and long bar that attaches to the pullout. It’s spendy and not possible to open the door with a that attached.

422272

422273
422274
422273
422275
422273422276

[James Biddle]

In one of Dave's links above, the pic shows the feeder wheels. They are split wheels and appear to be held on with only wing nuts. Does anyone regularly remove wheels to get closer to the cutter to mill narrower parts?

At least we own the pressure module, so we'll only need the Pressure Jaws and the Supporting Rail


For attaching the Thickness stop to the shaper I would suggest the long Aigner bar attached to the pull out support. The pictures of my T26 show a long bar attached to the machine and a shorter bar attached to the pullout. I would just put the long bar on the pullout.
Aigner also sells a adapter and long bar that attaches to the pullout. It’s spendy and not possible to open the door with a that attached.
422275
422276

Well, that saves me some money on the mounting bar. In my head, it made sense to use the one that mounts to the inside of the pullout bar, like you show on your outfeed. I never even thought about the door opening clearance. Thanks, we'll get a long rail and mount it to the pullout bar.

[Joe Calhoon]

In one of Dave's links above, the pic shows the feeder wheels. They are split wheels and appear to be held on with only wing nuts. Does anyone regularly remove wheels to get closer to the cutter to mill narrower parts?.

Jim,
I find we don’t remove them a lot but when you need to get in close on small moulding it is handy. I do a lot of short run historic work and find that is where wheels are removed and or shaft is tilted.
here is an example from a couple weeks ago.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5GjURRgWZZ/?igshid=1qmiep3i4m0kx (https://www.instagram.com/p/B5GjURRgWZZ/?igshid=1qmiep3i4m0kx)


422322