The right saw for dovetails and crosscuts

[Mike Manning]

A current thread comparing old saw with new boutique saws reminded me I have no knowledge regarding the use of handsaws. I have plans to start making some boxes and picture frames. I would like to have a nice saw to cut the dovetails and possibly making 45° crosscuts for picture frames. What kind of saw would do both those jobs? I thought I would want a backsaw but it seems there's all kinds of names for saws. Without knowing what I should be looking for I thought I'd ask the collective brain trust here. I prefer vintage tools and am frankly too cheap to buy boutique tools. I'd even ask what brands are considered best. From reading here I'd guess old Disston and Atkins are good but how old? Are these similar to Stanley planes where the quality started to suffer after WWII? Is there a sweet spot of dates on these old saws I should be looking for? Thanks for any and all thoughts/info!

[lowell holmes]

I suggest you try one of these

https://www.lowes.com/pd/VAUGHAN-Vaughan-Bear-Saw-5-5-in-Extra-Fine-Cut-Carpenter-Saw/1000218053

Then if you want to step up look at Lie Nielsen

https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/lie-nielsendovetailsaw.aspx

[Doug Weiner]

If you want to experiment with Japanese saws, try out an inexpensive ‘Ryoba’. You’ll get both crosscut and rip in one saw and you can get a decent usable one for around $30.

[Mike Manning]

Mods: Sorry I posted this in the wrong forum. Please move to the Neanderthal forum. Thanks!

[Mike Manning]

Lowell, Doug,
I'll check around the shop. I know years ago I picked up some kind of Japanese saw at an estate sale, even had an extra blade as I recall. I'll post pics of it if I can find it. Maybe someone can tell me what kind of saw it is. Thanks for those recommendations.

[Jim Koepke]

I would like to have a nice saw to cut the dovetails and possibly making 45° crosscuts for picture frames. What kind of saw would do both those jobs?

You may actually be wanting two different saws. A miter box and saw for the picture frames and a smaller saw for dovetails.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

Buy a new saw - it will be sharp.

If you're scouring the interwebs for good used steel, the German *Do-All* brand with hard maple miter box comes up for auction, now and again.

FWIW - a saw optimized for either task will be slow for the other. Finer teeth - finer finish. Larger teeth - higher speed

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

I know you said you're more likely to look at old saws, but I think it's hard to beat a Lie Nielsen Dovetail saw, the tapered thin plate version, for cutting dovetails and it will be ready to go out of the box, without needing to spend a heap of time researching, searching, and then learning to restore and sharpen an old saw.

Or, if you want something cheaper that is arguably even better for fine dovetails, a new Japanese Dozuki rip cut saw like a Gyokucho 372 - just depends on if you prefer Western or Japanese.

Cheers, Dom

[Mike Manning]

Found the Japanese saw and the blades I have but have never tried to use. Gyokucho Razor Saw on the still packaged handle. Not sure what kind of blades these are. The packaging for both says Gyokucho. I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who knows what these are and their intended use. Thanks!

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[Doug Dawson]

Found the Japanese saw and the blades I have but have never tried to use. Gyokucho Razor Saw on the still packaged handle. Not sure what kind of blades these are. The packaging for both says Gyokucho. I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who knows what these are and their intended use. Thanks!

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Ryobas. Good for sawing wood. General purpose, one side for ripping, one for crosscut, for carpentry, softwoods, although you could use them for finer joinery (dovetails etc in hardwoods) in a pinch.

[Mike Manning]

Ryobas. Good for sawing wood. General purpose, one side for ripping, one for crosscut, for carpentry, softwoods, although you could use them for finer joinery (dovetails etc in hardwoods) in a pinch.

Thanks Doug. Are you saying each blade has both rip and crosscut teeth/orientation on opposite sides of the blade? I reckon it's best to just give 'em a try and see how they do.

[Doug Dawson]

Thanks Doug. Are you saying each blade has both rip and crosscut teeth/orientation on opposite sides of the blade? I reckon it's best to just give 'em a try and see how they do.

Yes. Go ahead and give them a try. Just because they're machine-made with replaceable blades, doesn't mean they're inferior. I have both machine-made and hand-made, and there's not much difference (except the hand-made blades tend to be a bit more brittle.) Even if some teeth break off, they still cut well. Of course they are _pull_ saws.

[Phil Mueller]

Mike, yes, rip on one side, crosscut on the other. The saw you picture with the red packaging...the right side (larger teeth) is rip and the left side (smaller teeth) is crosscut.

[Andrew Seemann]

I use a Crown gent's saw for dovetails. I think they are somewhere between $20 - $25 these days. I changed it from a crosscut to a rip pattern. It works as well as I need it to.

[Curt Putnam]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Lee Valley. Their Veritas saws are arguably the best value is serious back saws available. While you are on the web site, they also sell Japanese pull saws. Certainly worth a look.

[steven c newman]

Dovetails and Box Joints = Disston No. 4, 14", 9ppi.

Crosscuts ( Mitre box version) = Disston No. 4, 11 ppi.....from a 4 x26" up to a 5 x 30".

Hand saws= Disston D8, 20", 10 ppi, Atkins No. 65, 8ppi, 26" long. Disston D-8, 26" long, 11 ppi. Craftsman Chrome edge, 26" long, 5-1/2 ppi.

[Warren Mickley]

I would not call the Veritas dovetail saw a serious saw. Serious saws have brass or iron backs. They also have the handle well up from the tooth line.

Serious dovetail saws are eight to ten inches long.

[Pat Barry]

I like my Veritas dovetail saws, seriously. Of course I'm a hobbyist, not a professional. They are a good value. I know they are non traditional but not sure why the back is necessarily bad. It is a pretty advanced composite material
.

[Frederick Skelly]

I would not call the Veritas dovetail saw a serious saw. Serious saws have brass or iron backs. They also have the handle well up from the tooth line.

Serious dovetail saws are eight to ten inches long.

Warren, Im certainly not qualified to tell you what is or is not a "serious" dovetail saw.
But with all due respect to your many years of experience Sir, I find that the Veritas Dovetail saw works just fine. It was a cost effective way for me to begin using handsaws without having to learn to recondition one. I have since moved on to an LN tapered dovetail saw, and while I prefer the LN, there is nothing wrong with the Veritas for hobbyist use.

OP/Mike: If you want new saws, I recommend a Veritas DT and Veritas Crosscut. You can get both together for about $160 with free shipping.

Merry Christmas to all!
Fred

[Derek Cohen]

A current thread comparing old saw with new boutique saws reminded me I have no knowledge regarding the use of handsaws. I have plans to start making some boxes and picture frames. I would like to have a nice saw to cut the dovetails and possibly making 45° crosscuts for picture frames. What kind of saw would do both those jobs? I thought I would want a backsaw but it seems there's all kinds of names for saws. Without knowing what I should be looking for I thought I'd ask the collective brain trust here. I prefer vintage tools and am frankly too cheap to buy boutique tools. I'd even ask what brands are considered best. From reading here I'd guess old Disston and Atkins are good but how old? Are these similar to Stanley planes where the quality started to suffer after WWII? Is there a sweet spot of dates on these old saws I should be looking for? Thanks for any and all thoughts/info!

Mike, unless you are willing to restore (i.e. sharpen) a vintage saw, then you are better off buying something like the Veritas 14 ppi dovetail saw. This is an ideal starter dovetail saw as the teeth have relaxed rake and make starting easier. I think that it is extremely good value.

I enjoy finding gems among the abandoned vintage saws, and will restore them. Here is one (cost me $10) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/R095QHd9/6a-zpspinvxpgl.jpg

However, the plate looked like this to begin, the brass back needed to be straightened, and the handle needed a little reshaping to make it fit my hand ...

https://i.postimg.cc/4dqWwCGt/5-unrestored1-zpsew1vtzfq.jpg

I'm trying to point out that it is very romantic to do this, and the result can rival the best from LN, etc. However, it is more work than it appears.

For mitres and crosscut sawing you could use the dovetail saw, but I would suggest you look at a Japanese z-saw (dovetail type). These have a solid back, and leave a fine, clean cut. Of course, they cut on the pull, which is different to the Western saw.

Merry Christmas from Vienna

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

Mike; if your not looking at restoring or building your own dovetail saw, and looking at a medium priced budget to purchase new, the following video from 4.min 26 is worthwhile viewing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1kF9ki74Ek


(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1kF9ki74Ek)

[David Silverson]

I have both the Veritas and the Lie Nielsen. I find the LN much easier to cut with. The noise the Veritas saw makes annoys me and it is appreciably harder both to start and to finish a cut with.

[Derek Cohen]

regards
I have both the Veritas and the Lie Nielsen. I find the LN much easier to cut with. The noise the Veritas saw makes annoys me and it is appreciably harder both to start and to finish a cut with.

Hi David

What you suggest, regarding starting, is impossible from a technical perspective ... but I think I have a reason. Further, the video which Stewie links to appears to have misleading and incorrect information.

Why do I say this? Simply because the LN has a much steeper raked teeth than the Veritas. I have owned and used a LN dovetail saw for about 20 years. Unless the saws have since changed their design, the teeth have zero to maybe 3 degrees of rake. The Veritas has 14 degrees of rake. Physically, one can easily feel this difference when starting a cut. The higher rake angle also produce a more aggressive and faster cut, which I find preferable (the LN is one of my go to saws). It is a trade off.

Incidentally, there is a sort of review of the LN here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and %20LieNielsen%20saws.html

Joshua, in the video, also states the same thing as you - that the Veritas squeals. This is a symptom of the saw plate binding in the cut, which is a result of too little set. I found the same on one of my own Veritas saws. Too little set will also make the saw harder to push. I increased the set, and the sound went away. The other issue is that Joshua measures the plates on the video and stated that the Veritas is 0.02” and the LN is 0.015”. The LN should also be 0.02” (check their website), and it is evident that he was using the LN thin kerf saw ... in other words, comparing apples with oranges. A thin kerf saw will indeed cut more easily, but is not recommended for a beginner (more fragile).

Merry Christmas from Vienna

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

You have everything you need to get started.

May I suggest you first practice on something like a 1/2" thick pine board (not 2x4) to get a feel for your saws.

Here is a link to the tutorial I follow.

FYI - I'm migrating to use of a similar saw for all my rough crosscutting and long rips cuts - but not for final joinery.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/brians-guide-to-japanese-saws/

[David Silverson]

Derek I agree with your post but empirically I do find the LV more difficult. After your post I rechecked and still like the LN much better, perhaps once some wear and tear takes place the LV will settle down some. I have not used it much.

[Tom M King]

It's probably duller than the other one.

[Derek Cohen]

Quite right Tom. That would also account for the difference.

Off to Prague ..

Derek

[lowell holmes]

Off Course, everybody knows we need all of the saw we can find. :)