Taper in hand saws and panel saw plates - how much difference does it make?

[Laurent Marshall]

I've been thinking of posting this question for awhile, and the other saw thread this morning reminded me.

Most vintage, and high-end contemporary saws have tapered plates (LN, Bad Axe), while mid-range and low-end contemporary saws have flat plates (Pax, etc.). How much of a performance difference will you actually notice while sawing that is attributable to the tapered plate?

I assume the tapered plate would allow you to use a bit less set, and that would really be the main advantage. However, when people talk about tapered plates usually a reduced tendency to bind is cited as the advantage, but reduced set would probably tend to offset that (no pun intended!).

When it comes to flat plates, it seems like there are folks out there that prefer the added stiffness of a flat plate, where I'd assume you'd need more set, resulting in a wider kerf and maybe a bit slower of a saw.

So what are your opinions about flat vs. tapered saw plates?

[lowell holmes]

Why don't you buy one and test it? I have many hand saws.

[Flamone LaChaud]

I have saws that have a tapered plate and saws that have no taper in the plate . . . I can't say there's much of a difference in the actual performance of the saw, but then again I haven't felt the need to test anything scientifically - nor do I have them set up (or use them) in a high-performance setting. Both work well for me, and perhaps those that say one over the other have other criteria to base their opinions on.

[steven c newman]

Might want to look up "Disston Taper"? Atkins also had a ad about their taper grind saws.

[Charles Guest]

I've been thinking of posting this question for awhile, and the other saw thread this morning reminded me.

Most vintage, and high-end contemporary saws have tapered plates (LN, Bad Axe), while mid-range and low-end contemporary saws have flat plates (Pax, etc.). How much of a performance difference will you actually notice while sawing that is attributable to the tapered plate?

I assume the tapered plate would allow you to use a bit less set, and that would really be the main advantage. However, when people talk about tapered plates usually a reduced tendency to bind is cited as the advantage, but reduced set would probably tend to offset that (no pun intended!).

When it comes to flat plates, it seems like there are folks out there that prefer the added stiffness of a flat plate, where I'd assume you'd need more set, resulting in a wider kerf and maybe a bit slower of a saw.

So what are your opinions about flat vs. tapered saw plates?

It's one of those things that sounds great in theory, isn't it? I've found the difference is hardly noticeable.

[Tom M King]

You have to be able to steer the saw in the cut. Back when almost all carpentry was done with handsaws, and they were sold by the dozen, tapering must have mattered, for all the effort put into it. If you're not going to use one to amount to anything, I doubt it will matter to you.

When I first started building houses, in 1974, I hired the best carpenters I could find, which turned out to be the oldest ones. All these guys still used handsaws for finish cuts that mattered. To a one, they all used, and sang the praises of the Disston D23. This was before there was such a thing as a sliding miter saw, or at least, that anyone around here had ever seen.

The new D23's then, were not the same saws that all the old guys (all younger than I am now) used. I mail ordered some Sandvik handsaws to try, and everyone liked them, in spite of the plywood handles. I have stuck with them. They are not tapered quite as much as the really old Disstons, but do have enough taper to matter, with a standard set.

I still do cuts that matter with handsaws. This siding was cut with a 10 pt. Sandvik. It might look tight, but you can move each piece, in and out with a finger tip. If you put one in too tight, it opens up the one below. it's just hanging on the nails. It's off the saw, marked with a preacher, and sharp no.4 pencil. I don't like to use caulking on the exterior of houses. I think that house was about 25 years old when I took that picture, a few years ago.

I wouldn't even pick up a handsaw that didn't have a tapered plate.

edited to add: I'm not sure when they stopped making those Sandvik saws, but it's been several decades. I've bought up 12 or 15, NOS, still in the cardboard sleeves. I have more than I will ever need. I never worry about how a tool looks, or even feels in my hands, unless it becomes irritating after using all day. The Sandvik saws are very comfortable to me.

[Jim Koepke]

Laurent,

You have pretty much summed up the pros and cons of handsaw tapering, save one.

In many areas of woodworking people often use wood that isn't fully dry. Some species of fir tend to expand when cutting. Some have areas with high amounts of resin. A tapered spine on a saw tends to help in this area. Wood movement may also be a factor when ripping planks during a humid spell of weather.

jtk

[Laurent Marshall]

Laurent,

You have pretty much summed up the pros and cons of handsaw tapering, save one.

In many areas of woodworking people often use wood that isn't fully dry. Some species of fir tend to expand when cutting. Some have areas with high amounts of resin. A tapered spine on a saw tends to help in this area. Wood movement may also be a factor when ripping planks during a humid spell of weather.

jtk

That makes sense. Since most of these old 26in handsaws were used in the balloon-frame construction booms of the mid-late 1900s probably with very un-seasoned stuff, heating and sticky resin would be a factor.

[Pete Taran]

Those who think that taper doesn't matter likely never have wielded a properly filed Disston #12 which had a thinner plate and more pronounced taper than most of their saws. The difference is striking. A tapered blade requires less set so is easier to push.

What may not be obvious is that Disston didn't taper grind their saws. They actually rolled the hot steel with this taper and then polished the result, at least after 1876:

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&idkey=NONE&SectionNum=3&HomeUrl=&docid=0181650

Just another one of the many reasons that Disston was the King of Saw Making.

Happy Sawing.

[Jim Matthews]

Any notion how Sears achieved their distinctive "Chromedge" pattern? Always thought they were pretty.

[steven c newman]

Like this?
422002

[Jim Matthews]

Yup.

Always thought this an appealing finish.

[Laurent Marshall]

You have to be able to steer the saw in the cut. Back when almost all carpentry was done with handsaws, and they were sold by the dozen, tapering must have mattered, for all the effort put into it. If you're not going to use one to amount to anything, I doubt it will matter to you.

When I first started building houses, in 1974, I hired the best carpenters I could find, which turned out to be the oldest ones. All these guys still used handsaws for finish cuts that mattered. To a one, they all used, and sang the praises of the Disston D23. This was before there was such a thing as a sliding miter saw, or at least, that anyone around here had ever seen.

The new D23's then, were not the same saws that all the old guys (all younger than I am now) used. I mail ordered some Sandvik handsaws to try, and everyone liked them, in spite of the plywood handles. I have stuck with them. They are not tapered quite as much as the really old Disstons, but do have enough taper to matter, with a standard set.

I still do cuts that matter with handsaws. This siding was cut with a 10 pt. Sandvik. It might look tight, but you can move each piece, in and out with a finger tip. If you put one in too tight, it opens up the one below. it's just hanging on the nails. It's off the saw, marked with a preacher, and sharp no.4 pencil. I don't like to use caulking on the exterior of houses. I think that house was about 25 years old when I took that picture, a few years ago.

I wouldn't even pick up a handsaw that didn't have a tapered plate.

edited to add: I'm not sure when they stopped making those Sandvik saws, but it's been several decades. I've bought up 12 or 15, NOS, still in the cardboard sleeves. I have more than I will ever need. I never worry about how a tool looks, or even feels in my hands, unless it becomes irritating after using all day. The Sandvik saws are very comfortable to me.

Thanks for your post and insight on preferences those old carpenters had! I have my doubts anyone uses handsaws in construction or finish carpentry anymore these days, definitely a lot of skills lost...

[Tom M King]

I may very well be the last. But not just for the sake of using a handsaw. Often, it's the best tool for the job.

Picture of Cypress Shingle roof being trimmed with one of my beater handsaws.
https://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploads/monthly_2016_02/CIMG1681small.jpg.4fa3e67a6dd50bf70f771eac88270ac8 .jpgAnd every piece of this handrail was cut with either a handsaw, or a backsaw, with the small pieces cut while sitting on the steps to save so much up and down.
http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/CIMG2129.JPG

[alan west]

A saw like a Disston #12 is much easier to saw compared to others. That said, it does require a higher level of skill when applying and truing the set to take advantage of the extra taper. If you are off the slightest there is little room left in the kerf to steer the saw. Probably nothing for an experienced saw sharpener, but it was challenging for me to figure it out.

[Jim Matthews]

The Orsa is fine steel, sold cheap.

I use one for cutting down plywood - it still has all its teeth.

[Warren Mickley]

I have used tapered Disston saws exclusively since 1956. I have never owned any type of power saw. If I try a saw with no taper, I can feel the stiffness right away. The small bit of extra flexibility of a tapered saw gives an added ability to make course corrections. It is subtle but noticeable. Some might brag that they cannot notice this.

[Jim Koepke]

It is subtle but noticeable. Some might brag that they cannot notice this.

Many of us with more than a few saws, can likely feel the difference between one saw and the other. If all saws felt the same in use, how would we ever be able to convincingly tell our spouses we have been thinking about getting another saw?

jtk

[Tom M King]

A powered saw is fine when the mating parts are straight, square, and perfect. When you need to fit one part to another that might not quite be perfect, the handsaw gives the fine control needed. I use powered saws all the time, but only when that is the best choice.

For that particular handrail, the stringers were old, and the slope of one side didn't exactly match the other side, but with all the complicated angles, I didn't want people to look through one side to the other, and get a confusing view, so the second side first parts were just held in place, and sighted to the ones already set on the other side. There were also a lot of pieces, and my helpers primed the ends of each piece after I cut it. By the time I was to the end with one run of four pieces, the primer was dry enough to nail in place as I worked my way down marking, and cutting the next set of pieces.

Yes, the marking is important. I mainly use a sharp no. 4 pencil, and I'm particular about my pencils too. When sawing to the line, you either need to leave the line, or take the line. I rarely use a marking knife because it's harder for me to be precise enough when I need to leave the line.

Apologies to those tired of seeing this picture. I have so many pictures, that it takes a long time to find a particular one that I'm looking for. This is a picture of siding that I've posted before because I have it stored here422213. It was cut with a handsaw. You can move any piece with a fingertip, since it's hanging on nails with predrilled holes. This allows it to move with humidity changes, with little chance of stress, and splitting. It was marked with a preacher, and is off the saw. Yes, every board on the house is like this.

This is too hard to do with a power saw. Not a sheet of paper can be slid into any joint, but you can still move each piece. If you cut one tight, to force it in to get a good fit, you open up the one below. This is the type of difference I expect between the handsaw, and a powered saw of any type.

[Tom M King]

The handrail pieces were marked one off the last, mating parts.

The siding is done in the more typical, traditional finish carpentry method of marking with a preacher, which is usually made for a particular job. It takes the error away, and eliminates the extra step of measuring, and transferring. A marking knife could work here, since you take the line. Paint is on that one because any time the siding is going to be painted, we paint each end, and it's mating part, as it's put up. I must have gotten out of sequence when I got paint on that preacher. I don't like to use caulking on the outside of a house.

One is tight, so it will stay in place if one hand is needed to hold onto something while marking with the other hand. The other is marked "loose", but it's not real loose. It just slides easily.

[Tom M King]

This is the 1828 house I made those siding preachers for. It needed all the siding replaced. This was before it was completely finished, but I don't have other pictures at hand.
http://historic-house-restoration.com/sitebuilder/images/frontview-600x401.jpg

[Tom M King]

I found a picture of that handrail balustrade during construction. I didn't measure the difference in slope from one side to the other of the stringers, but we decided it was not worth the trouble to "fix" them. The main pieces on the second side were positioned by sighting the other side. As the pieces got smaller, they were marked in place with a gauge.

edited to add: You can see that the bottom section is not quite right. It's been a few years since we built this, so I'm forgetting some of the details. I probably changed the plan to sighting after noticing that section didn't look good when looking through, but probably decided to leave it, since those large Boxwoods mostly hid that section anyway. That would have been a difficult change if they had been made in a shop, whereas a handsaw allowed me to go with the flow of the job.

[Jonathan Elliott]

Tom,

Thanks so much for the great explanation and examples. I realized after I posted that I should probably start a new thread (which I did) but I appreciate you responding. I can certainly understand and appreciate the freedom a handsaw gives one in the hand of an experienced sawyer. I look forward to gaining that confidence and freedom. Thanks again for sharing your experiences.

Jonathan

[Tom M King]

I wish I could move these posts, that I put in the wrong thread, but maybe they're almost self-explanatory.

[Mel Fulks]

Tom ,that pic of the siding shows neat work. But I wish you would give us more detail on that exact fit. Don't they shrink some
length wise ? Do you use caulk anywhere on those old houses?

[Tom M King]

If the grain is straight, they don't shrink lengthwise to amount to anything. If you look at a board, and the grain goes back, and forth like a dog's hind leg, that board will move some lengthwise, so I try to avoid those. If you force a siding board in tight, that's one that will probably develop splits on the ends.

The only time we use caulking on the outside is to fill up a hole, like an empty nail hole. That 1828 house doesn't have caulking on the outside, nor inside either. The outside was done in 2009, hasn't had the Duration repainted, is pressure washed every year, or so, and still looks like new. We do always paint any board ends before being put up, which includes priming the whole face of each board before even starting the install.

That unfinished Cypress siding is under a porch, that goes all the way around that particular house. The picture is after 25, or 6, years of age on that house. It was one of the spec houses that I built one of for each of 33 years. I'll see if I can find a picture, and come back to edit.

edited to add picture: This house also has a copper roof. The only picture I have is of the road side of the house. The lake side has one large dormer that's over a large cathedral ceiling, but I don't know, right off, where I have a picture of that. When I built this house in 1991, I wanted to do a standing seam roof, since I had been wanting to do one. That was before the snap down stuff that we use now was available. When I was pricing rolls of roofing metal, that year, copper was 90 cents a pound. All the copper on that roof cost $6300. At the time, break even for using copper instead of Terne coated, was the second time the Terne had to be repainted. Lately, the last time I looked, it's $10 a pound. Sorry, I don't have a better picture of that house.

I wouldn't use clapboard siding not painted out in the weather. I do use unfinished wood for siding, but when I do, it's vertical board on board, and most of the time White Oak.

Figuring that all the other builders had gotten smarter than me, I didn't want a house on the market in coming 2008, so I built my last new house in 2007, and went full time working on old houses.

https://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploads/monthly_2018_08/copperroof.JPG.86e5d4d40f7f20709f9d83c46579176c.JP G

[Mel Fulks]

Tom ,thanks for kind and quick detail.

[Frederick Skelly]

For that particular handrail, the stringers were old, and the slope of one side didn't exactly match the other side, but with all the complicated angles, I didn't want people to look through one side to the other, and get a confusing view, so the second side first parts were just held in place, and sighted to the ones already set on the other side.

Now THAT is pride in one's work!

I always enjoy reading your posts about your restoration work, Tom.

Fred