I’m going solar

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I am installing a Tesla Powerwall and 4.1 kW of solar panels and going off the grid except for backup. (*edited original typo- it is 4.1, not 14.1!!!) The decision was made easier with all the issues with our local power company becoming insolvent and wanting to raise rates despite being the second highest rate per kWh in the world. https://stjohnsource.com/2019/09/24/fitch-ratings-warns-of-wapa-insolvency-cites-psc-failure-to-raise-rates/

What made the decision really easy is I need the tax break, and since I needed a new roof anyway, I get to add the cost of roof into the cost of solar since the roof was nescessary in order to add solar. The total cost is eligible for a tax credit, and this year I badly need a tax credit, so this became almost a no-brainer.

I am going to share the details for anyone wishing to go solar, because nobody ever seems to share what it really cost. Keep in mind that things usually cost a little more here than in the states, but in this case not by much. For one Powerwall, 13 panels, installation including 40 foot run to the meter and nescessary switches to prevent backfeeding the grid, and everything needed to run the house on solar with the power grid only as a backup, came to $27,500. That was a tough pill to swallow even at our high utility rate. The cost after tax credit is supposed to be $19,500, but the additional roof costs will hopefully allow more tax credits.

This is is supposed to cover slightly more than my daily use, but we do not use the A/C unless we have guests visiting, and using the A/C would literally double the required size of the system. All lights are LED. The stove is propane, and the water heater is on-demand propane fueled. We are very frugal with power. The great news is that the system is expandable down the road if we ever wanted to, and we likely will in two years because we are planning to get an electric vehicle. At that point we will probably add a Powerwall and a few more panels. Adding a Powerwall is around $7k installed at current costs.

I really am not doing this to save money, but rather to be environmentally conscious and to offset our constant power outages, which are about to get worse now that our utility company is bankrupt. Also, after going three months without power after the storms, it makes good sense to have solar. 80% of the panels on island survived the storm, not counting a solar field that was poorly installed, but of all roof mounted solar there was only 80% damage. My roof only had one small leak after the storm, but the roof was way beyond needing replacement. I am skinning the roof in 3/4” ply, ice and rain, 2x4 purlins, and closed cell foam insulation with corrugated galvalum on top of the original 1” pine underlayment on a timber framed structure. It should be bomb proof. I live in town, so there aren’t a lot of trees, and after Irma and Maria there was no sign of impact damage on the roof.

So, that’s the scoop on going solar. Install is scheduled for February. The roof is getting done by end of this month or early January in preparation for the install. I prepaid so I can take the tax credit this year.

[Jim Braun]

Sounds good. What happens if single panel is damaged does it take out the entire string or are they wired differently these days?

[Frederick Skelly]

Sounds like a fascinating project Malcolm. I'd be very interested in hearing any lessons learned from the install and later after you've run it over a few months.

Good luck!
Fred

[Jim Becker]

That actually sounds like a good decision, Malcolm. Given where you live, the situation with the power company and weather patterns, being able to be independent like that should be a plus over time. Hopefully, the combination of the new roof and power system can be installed in a way to mitigate as much risk for potential storm damage as possible, too.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Sounds like you have done your research and are making an informed decision. Keep us updated on your progress Malcolm

[Matt Day]

Awesome! Solar sounds perfect for your situation. One day (soon hopefully) I hope it’s a good financial decision for a lot more people.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Sounds good. What happens if single panel is damaged does it take out the entire string or are they wired differently these days?
Each panel operates independently and taking one out doesn’t ruin the whole thing.

[Mike Henderson]

If I were you, I'd put more panels on the roof, if you have room. I have 14 panels and it generally meets our needs but our weather is pretty mild. When we installed our panels, it was about $750/panel, installed. Also, the panels lose generating capacity each year, a few percent per year. After 6 years, I'm down to about 90% of what I generated the first year. I keep a record of our generation. I'm not very good at keeping them washed off, however.

One thing the power company did here is to change the rate structure for everyone to "time of day". And then they modified the rate structure so that the cost of electricity is very low during the day when you're generating the most electricity. Then in the evening, when the sun is going down to early evening, the rates are high.

They did that because they have to buy electricity from you at their retail rate. When we first put up the solar, rates during the day were high so we got a big credit for the excess electricity we generated. Now, not so much.

But I can't fault them. With everyone putting up solar, they have excess electricity during the day. I need to install a powerwall and then sell the power back to them in the evening when the rates are high.

There was criticism that solar would only help the rich because people living in apartments can't take advantage of solar panels. But now, with the rates being depressed because of all the installed solar, apartment people are getting the advantages of solar without having to put out any money for installation.

Mike

[When we installed ours, the payback period was maybe 8 years. For people who used a lot of electricity, maybe a big house with a pool, the payback could be four years.]

[Mike Cutler]

After what you went through a few years back, I'm surprised you had not already done it. $20K as insurance against not having power for 100+ days justifies the cost by itself in my opinion.

[Steve Demuth]

Is it fair to guess that 14.1 kw is a typo? I can't imagine 13 panels adding up to that much output, and your usage hardly seems to justify that size of installation.

[Jamie Buxton]

This is only your home, right? Did you run the numbers on doing your shop?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Is it fair to guess that 14.1 kw is a typo? I can't imagine 13 panels adding up to that much output, and your usage hardly seems to justify that size of installation.
Oops. 4.1, not 14.1

This is only your home, right? Did you run the numbers on doing your shop?
Just the home. I don’t care at the moment if the shop loses power. When it becomes a full-time business I will consider it.


If I were you, I'd put more panels on the roof, if you have room. I have 14 panels and it generally meets our needs but our weather is pretty mild. When we installed our panels, it was about $750/panel, installed. Also, the panels lose generating capacity each year, a few percent per year. After 6 years, I'm down to about 90% of what I generated the first year. I keep a record of our generation. I'm not very good at keeping them washed off, however.

One thing the power company did here is to change the rate structure for everyone to "time of day". And then they modified the rate structure so that the cost of electricity is very low during the day when you're generating the most electricity. Then in the evening, when the sun is going down to early evening, the rates are high.

They did that because they have to buy electricity from you at their retail rate. When we first put up the solar, rates during the day were high so we got a big credit for the excess electricity we generated. Now, not so much.

But I can't fault them. With everyone putting up solar, they have excess electricity during the day. I need to install a powerwall and then sell the power back to them in the evening when the rates are high.

There was criticism that solar would only help the rich because people living in apartments can't take advantage of solar panels. But now, with the rates being depressed because of all the installed solar, apartment people are getting the advantages of solar without having to put out any money for installation.

Mike

[When we installed ours, the payback period was maybe 8 years. For people who used a lot of electricity, maybe a big house with a pool, the payback could be four years.]

It sounds like you are on net metering. We are not going that route. Our local power company is corrupt and I don’t want to trust them to pay me back. They owe $60 million to their propane supplier already. I just want to generate my own power. Down the road we will add more panels. We do not finance things so we are paying for what we can, and what we are told will support our usage. I can always add more panels and powerwalls.

[Mike Cutler]

But I can't fault them. With everyone putting up solar, they have excess electricity during the day. I need to install a powerwall and then sell the power back to them in the evening when the rates are high.
Mike


Don't give them a free pass just yet Mike. California's electrical generators and transmission companies are a study in how not to do things right, but they're not stupid.
What they really have is excess generation outside their contractural obligations that they can now legally sell at market rates.
Electricity is a fluid commodity now.

[Pat Barry]

Malcolm, are you going to backfeed surplus power to the power grid? If so how much reimbursement is expected?

[John K Jordan]

Good for you! Give some updates when you can.

I wish my roof was covered with panels, might require extensive landscaping to remove many large morning/afternoon shading trees though.

[Jim Falsetti]

Malcom, I am not that familiar with residential solar, however you probably have a terrific solar resource at St. Johns - and with 47cts/kWh and an unreliable supply, solar is a no-brainer. Batteries are a good idea, too.

As to performance degradation, you might see a hit of 1% the first year, and then 0.5%/yr after that (almost all of today's module manufacturers guarantee no more than 0.7%/year of degradation - actual experience is less). Frankly, with your economics, degradation shouldn't be a material factor.

With that huge electricity price, I'm kind of surprised you didn't go for more than 4.1KW of solar, although maybe your insolation is so large, or the battery requirements are such, that you don't need any more. In many installations it pays to add more modules and crank up the DC/AC ratio, which increases annual production. Most inverters can handle relatively high ratios (~1.3-1.5). You may want to explore that aspect with your installer.

Overall, it sounds like a solid economic solution.

Good luck with the install!

Jim

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Malcom, I am not that familiar with residential solar, however you probably have a terrific solar resource at St. Johns - and with 47cts/kWh and an unreliable supply, solar is a no-brainer. Batteries are a good idea, too.

As to performance degradation, you might see a hit of 1% the first year, and then 0.5%/yr after that (almost all of today's module manufacturers guarantee no more than 0.7%/year of degradation - actual experience is less). Frankly, with your economics, degradation shouldn't be a material factor.

With that huge electricity price, I'm kind of surprised you didn't go for more than 4.1KW of solar, although maybe your insolation is so large, or the battery requirements are such, that you don't need any more. In many installations it pays to add more modules and crank up the DC/AC ratio, which increases annual production. Most inverters can handle relatively high ratios (~1.3-1.5). You may want to explore that aspect with your installer.

Overall, it sounds like a solid economic solution.

Good luck with the install!

Jim

It was really a matter of cost. We don't finance, but rather save our money for things and buy them when we get enough. This was our budget for now, but later on we will probably add panels. The original intent was just to make the kitchen and living room on solar for power outages, but that proved to be difficult to wire up separately, and the Tesla Powerwall was enough to run the whole house, so we just did the whole house.

[Steve Fish]

Great call Malcolm! That was our first big project when we got here last winter. Say hello to the guys for me. Dan and Ryan are tops. We’re expanding our system about the same time as yours is going in.
421988

421989

John, have you consider a ground level (field) installation? There’s no rule that says it has to be on your roof....

[Roger Feeley]

Malcom, I didn't see anyplace where you gave the rate from the power company. What is the cost/kwh?

[John K Jordan]

Malcom, I didn't see anyplace where you gave the rate from the power company. What is the cost/kwh?

Roger, I wondered about that too. The only number I found quickly was for 2015:

Virgin Islands
2015
$0.47 per kilowatt-hour (kWh)


Compare to the highest and lowest rates in the cont. US, with my state and yours thrown in for comparison
(Reference: https://paylesspower.com/blog/electric-rates-by-state/)
2019, cents per kWh

32.08 Hawaii
22.7 Rhode Island
21.75 Alaska

11.4 Virginia
10.78 Tennessee

9.17 North Dakota
8.84 Louisiana
8.8 Oklahoma

Some states do have high rates. One difference is the power company in the VI appears to be on a fast track to collapse

JKJ

[Mike Henderson]

Roger, I wondered about that too. The only number I found quickly was for 2015:

Virgin Islands
2015
$0.47 per kilowatt-hour (kWh)


Compare to the highest and lowest rates in the cont. US, with my state and yours thrown in for comparison
(Reference: https://paylesspower.com/blog/electric-rates-by-state/)
2019, cents per kWh

32.08 Hawaii
22.7 Rhode Island
21.75 Alaska

11.4 Virginia
10.78 Tennessee

9.17 North Dakota
8.84 Louisiana
8.8 Oklahoma

Some states do have high rates. One difference is the power company in the VI appears to be on a fast track to collapse

JKJ

One thing the chart doesn't capture on cost is that some states have "tiered rates" meaning that the first X kWh are a low price, then the next Y kWh are more expensive, then everything beyond that is very expensive. California used to do that.

For people who used a lot of electricity solar was a very good deal. You didn't have to zero out your usage, you just needed to generate enough to get you out of the highest tier. So those giant mansions with pools were the first to put in solar because they were using a lot of electricity in the highest tier. The payback on those houses was pretty short, maybe 3 to 4 years.

Our electric company is now in the process of converting everyone to "time of day" rates. Now, with the very low rates during the main part of the day, the payback is not so quick and easy.

Mike

[Steve Fish]

From what I hear our power company “WAPA” owes 60 million and the propane supply is being cut off..........just what I hear though. From what I’ve seen, I’m not surprised
422011

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Malcom, I didn't see anyplace where you gave the rate from the power company. What is the cost/kwh?

$0.47/kWh, but there are add-on fees for fuel cost and believe it or not, “generator rental fee” to pay for WAPA’s generator.


Great call Malcolm! That was our first big project when we got here last winter. Say hello to the guys for me. Dan and Ryan are tops. We’re expanding our system about the same time as yours is going in.
421988

421989

John, have you consider a ground level (field) installation? There’s no rule that says it has to be on your roof....

Nice! Since I am in the historic district, I can only put panels on the shed roof on the south side, so a few panels will go on the west, and likely one on the east to catch the morning sun. I will let you know next time I head over to Water Island and pay you a visit- we sold the dink and just have not been on the water as much.


Roger, I wondered about that too. The only number I found quickly was for 2015:

Virgin Islands
2015
$0.47 per kilowatt-hour (kWh)


Compare to the highest and lowest rates in the cont. US, with my state and yours thrown in for comparison
(Reference: https://paylesspower.com/blog/electric-rates-by-state/)
2019, cents per kWh

32.08 Hawaii
22.7 Rhode Island
21.75 Alaska

11.4 Virginia
10.78 Tennessee

9.17 North Dakota
8.84 Louisiana
8.8 Oklahoma

Some states do have high rates. One difference is the power company in the VI appears to be on a fast track to collapse

JKJ

That is correct, but add-on fees take it even higher. Also, businesses pay a higher rate, because why attract businesses to a struggling economy? (Sarcasm)


From what I hear our power company “WAPA” owes 60 million and the propane supply is being cut off..........just what I hear though. From what I’ve seen, I’m not surprised
422011

It is about to get really bad. Rolling blackouts have already started, although they are not calling it that. They say things like “power was lost due to a problem that caused a shutdown in generator 2”. The problem is they could not afford fuel and so they overload one generator to keep from firing up another and it trips offline. Apparently there is some magical sequence to restart them because some of them burn fuel to heat steam and you can’t just easily restart them. We paid millions to convert to propane, and then they stopped paying the propane company to the tune of $60 million, but it turns out one of the higher-ups has been leasing them a parking lot for $500,000 a year that normal rent for would be around $50,000 at the very most. When questioned by the paper, they said “Oh, that is FEMA money, not out of our budget.” Basically they just admitted to scamming FEMA!!! Hello, FBI, are you listening?

Steve, be glad you are on solar. It is going to be bad when their fuel rates go up due to their poor payment to the propane company. They are going to raise the LEAC (fuel surcharge) and I bet you on Christmas Day we see power outages- what do you want to bet? Oh, and Steve, if you don’t know this yet, every year during the Super Bowl they cut off the power mid-game. Every year. Also, the local TV station plays local ads instead of the national ads. While everyone else is watching the funny Super Bowl ads, you’ll be singing “Come to Tire Kingdom!” (Excuse Steve, folks, he just spit his coffee at that local joke.) For the rest of you, here is the jingle: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf6CHS-zLi0 warning, it’s contagious.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Boom- Christmas Day, Power just went out. Told ya.

[Derek Meyer]

Man, some Merry Christmas that is! Hope it comes back on soon for you.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Man, some Merry Christmas that is! Hope it comes back on soon for you.

I was visiting friends in St. John, but when we got back to St. Thomas the power was on there. Every holiday this happens, and I think it’s someone wanting double time throws the switch somewhere to get a few extra hours.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I think you'll be happy with your investment.

We've had two 5000sq/ft houses, one in Orlando FL and the other in Dallas, TX.

The FL house used to cost us around $800 a month in electricity.

Expecting the same, when we moved to Dallas, the sellers told us we'd love the electricity bills as they had installed solar panels on one portion of the garage roof. The system wasn't enough to fully power the house and had no battery storage, but our average summer bills were around $230 a month and a couple of months we actually got a $45 credit as we put excess electrify back into the grid. We were registered as a power supply company and for some unknown reason, we still receive some kind of dividend check even though we haven't lived there for over 3 years.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The FL house used to cost us around $800 a month in electricity.


This is amazing to me. Our highest bill over the last three years was $230. The house was built in 1959 and has the original doors and windows.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

This is amazing to me. Our highest bill over the last three years was $230. The house was built in 1959 and has the original doors and windows.

Yes, that is crazy high. I know Floridians pay a lot for water, but didn’t know electricity was that high. I have on-demand propane hot water, propane stove, LED lighting, and we don’t use the A/C and my bill runs around $250. If I were to run the A/C all the time, it would double that.

[Doug Dawson]

I think you'll be happy with your investment.

We've had two 5000sq/ft houses, one in Orlando FL and the other in Dallas, TX.

The FL house used to cost us around $800 a month in electricity.

Expecting the same, when we moved to Dallas, the sellers told us we'd love the electricity bills as they had installed solar panels on one portion of the garage roof. The system wasn't enough to fully power the house and had no battery storage, but our average summer bills were around $230 a month and a couple of months we actually got a $45 credit as we put excess electrify back into the grid. We were registered as a power supply company and for some unknown reason, we still receive some kind of dividend check even though we haven't lived there for over 3 years.

In Texas our State Gubment outlawed selling 'lectricity back to the utility a few years ago, so I don't know where that's coming from. With a 5000sf house here in South Texas, up towards $800/mo doesn't sound implausible during the summer months (i.e. half the year.) We looked into solar, but the initial investment was so high that I threw people out. "You come back, FIVE years. No roof for you." It's gonna come down. In the meantime, there are other ways to save on power.

[Jim Koepke]

In Texas our State Gubment outlawed selling 'lectricity back to the utility a few years ago, so I don't know where that's coming from. With a 5000sf house here in South Texas, up towards $800/mo doesn't sound implausible during the summer months (i.e. half the year.) We looked into solar, but the initial investment was so high that I threw people out. "You come back, FIVE years. No roof for you." It's gonna come down. In the meantime, there are other ways to save on power.

That may have changed Doug:


While Texas doesn’t have a statewide solar tax credit or solar rebate program, many utilities (large and small) and local governments offer incentives to homeowners who want to go solar. Here are some examples:

Austin Energy: If you live in Austin, you can get a rebate of $2,500. Plus, you’re eligible for Austin Energy’s Value of Solar Tariff, which pays you $0.097 for every kilowatt-hour (kWh) your solar panels can generate.

This is from > https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/solar-rebates-incentives/tx/

If the last two letters of the link are changed, say > https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/solar-rebates-incentives/fl/

It will give a similar page for > fl < or Florida or which ever state you choose.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

We were registered as a power supply company and for some unknown reason, we still receive some kind of dividend check even though we haven't lived there for over 3 years.

You may not live there, but you may still be listed as an interest holder in the power supply company. Thus when it earns money, you get a dividend. This is possibly a little bit of chattel attached to a property that wasn't conveyed when the property changed ownership.

This could be a way of creating income without owning the property if one wanted to buy properties, install solar equipment, flip the property but retain the solar payoff.

jtk