What do you think of this wagon/tail vise design?

[Joshua Lucas]

I'm in the early stages of building a Moravian workbench. I'm planning to include a wagon vise of some sort and I've bought an Acer-Ferrous wooden screw for the purpose.

I came upon this design by Texcaster over at Lumberjocks a while back and I like how it combines the features of a wagon vise with a traditional tail vise. There are a few tradeoffs, but I think it has a few advantages over either of the traditional designs.

If I were to implement this design, I would make a few changes. First, it would be much narrower, only covering one of the slabs of my split-top bench (10-12 inches). This would move the screw closer to the dog block, reducing racking (which Texcaster says is not a significant problem, but less is always better) and reducing susceptibility to seasonal movement (which Texcaster says is an issue with his version).

Pros vs. Tail Vise:


No sagging
Much more robust (I'd like to use my end vise to hold parts for mortising)
Potentially easier to build

Cons vs. Tail Vise:

No clamping between end of vise and bench. This isn't significant for me because the splayed legs will prevent this anyway.
Doesn't look as nice


Pros vs. Wagon Vise:


Can clamp stock overhanging end of bench
Multiple dog holes
Can clamp stock to end of bench like face vise
Screw not exposed when the vise is closed
Looks nicer (subjective)

Cons vs. Wagon Vise:

Harder to build
Possible racking (mitigated by narrower vise)



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[Stew Denton]

Joshua,

It looks like a very robust design, as you point out. It certainly is a design that I have never seen before, and it really looks to have some good strong points.

I think your evaluation of the pros and cons is a good evaluation.

If I were to build one, I would leave the width the same, but then I would not build a split top bench. That said, I would put the screw closer to the dog block so as to reduce racking. That step would have much the same effect as would narrowing the vise, as you suggested. However, even if you narrow up the width of the vise, the closer you move the screw to the dog block, the less of a problem racking will be.

I think that overall, this design has some very substantial advantages over the traditional wagon vise, but as you point out, it will be more of an effort to build. It's design is similar enough to the strongly built type of end vise that if I were going to put a vise on the end of a bench, I would go ahead and build the strong design of a traditional end vise.

The strong version of the traditional end vise, like Frank Klause built on his bench, should not sag any more than this tail vise design, since the design of the support structure of the vise is extremely similar to that type of that end vise design. Also, I think the strong traditional design used by Klause is just as strong at this vise.

That said, if someone likes a wagon vise location that is not on the edge of the bench, like the traditional end vise, but rather wants the vise centered further form the edge of the bench but does not go for the wagon vise, this may be the best route to go.

Good post.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[ken hatch]

Joshua,

Short answer, not much. Longer, way too complex for the job, there are other approaches which would be quicker and easier to install but if it blows your skirt, go for it.

ken

[William Fretwell]

Joshua, I agree with Stew. The screw is in such a bad position it makes me wonder about the builder. Clearly they were copying something and not much thought went into it. That is all but a traditional vise. Go for the traditional vise and get the jaws working for you, they are very useful.
The vise does not have to sag at all if the sliding frame is built properly. My end vise opens 13” making my bench over a foot longer with no sag. My screw is as close to the dog line as possible. I have used the end frame to hold things on occasion. As for wanting to chisel something held by the vise just turn the work around so the chiselled piece is over the solid bench if needed. Keep the work on the first dog and you can chisel in the vise for most things.
Have a look at my frame design, search: Fretwell’s long tail Danish on here. It might give you some clarity.

[Tom M King]

Looks like a lot of trouble for nothing. I saw one full tail vise, with two linear bearing rods, the screw near the single dog hole. One of the lineal rods was close to the vise screw. That looked like a good design, but I forget where I saw it. The rods must have been long, and bearings under the top, or maybe let into the bottom of the top-didn't see the underside.

[Derek Cohen]

When building my current bench, the design and choice of the tail vise was decided by the limited space available behind this section of the bench. For this reason I went with a BenchCrafted wagon vise. A big attraction was that it does not extend back beyond the bench.

There are a lot of advantages to the traditional L-shaped vise. One is that there is access from the front of the bench for clamping, such as for holding a board for sawing tenon cheeks. A wagon vise cannot do this .... and neither can the vise in question. This appears to have both the disadvantages I mentioned here. It looks interesting, but I would not go there. A bit of this and a bit of that, and no advantages.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Much more robust (I'd like to use my end vise to hold parts for mortising)

My impression has always been a woodworking vise shouldn't be used for holding work being mortised. That kind of pounding can be hard on all parts of the vise. My vise has been used to secure pieces being mortised, but not support them:

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George is watching me clean out a mortise. Notice the work is supported by the bench top. The vise is only providing clamping pressure to the piece.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

I agree, Jim ... morticing is not done in a vise. The only person I know who does this is Paul Sellers, and you can see him re-adjust the board every few minutes as it slips down. It cannot be good for the vise.

Work over a leg. I place a board in the leg vise (which has non-slip sandpaper) and clamp the stretcher to it ...

https://i.postimg.cc/tJFSYj5W/DDa.jpg

Regards from Vienna

Derek

[Tom Bussey]

This is my wagon vise design and the cost was $28 from Lee Valley, It has increased in price to around $32 something. It is a shoulder vise screw

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[Mel Fulks]

Tom ,that is a beautiful bench. And big,looks like a bowling alley! Looks like that paint is "linoleum green" ,don't
see it much now. It's always been a favorite of mine.