Advice, please

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I am seeking advice that includes questions about sharpening and whether to purchase a new stone, new chisel(s), neither, or both. It is not my goal to set off another sharpening debate, but I am having some sharpening issues and am asking sharpening questions, and so it seems inevitable that another debate will begin. That's fine; I always learn something new.

As usual, I am quite verbose but wanted to provide enough detail to get informed advice rather than simply raising questions, so please pardon the length of this post.

There are a few things that aren't working as well for me as I'd like with my present setup in regards to sharpening, but I am not convinced that further changes in my sharpening setup are the right answer. Below is a discussion of what I am presently doing and what isn't working for me (hence my seeking advice from the experts); it's my experience alone and is not intended as any kind of support or criticism of what works for someone else. As with all things woodworking, if what you're doing is working well for you, please continue.

First, a bit of background. For about three years now I've been using DMT coarse and extra fine diamond stones followed by a leather or wood strop with Formax green "micro-fine" honing compound. For what it's worth, I am a freehand sharpener mostly because when starting out I didn't want to spend the money to buy a honing guide and after several years of freehand sharpening and after starting to also get into carving (with its wonderful variety of not-so-honing-guide-friendly gouges) I don't presently see a need for a honing guide in my work. I'm not against anyone using them, just don't want one for myself.

My woodworking time is mostly in the evenings once or twice during the week with a good deal more shop time on the weekends when the opportunity arises. I sharpen up whenever the blade I am using is no longer sharp enough to do what I want it to do (so, this differs greatly between, for example, chopping mortises versus paring end grain or smoothing). Whenever I have time, at the end of a woodworking session I sharpen all the blades I have used so that I leave things sharp for next time. The DMT stones I have are pretty well broken in and so I believe I have enough experience with them to pass judgement on the particular examples I have in my shop. With this combination of sharpening media, I have two problems. First, the extra fine diamond stone still has a tendency to "throw a diamond" every couple of weeks (just did so again about two weeks ago); a diamond comes loose from one part of the stone during a stroke with a blade and gets pushed along until it embeds itself farther along in the surface, leaving a rogue diamond sticking up well above its surroundings and leaving a deep scratch in the edge of the blade along with a consistent high spot on the stone until that diamond wears down. This is true of both the 8 inch bench stone in my workshop and the 6 inch "travel size" stone I bring along on business trips to use with my gouges. With all the "rogue diamonds" scattered around (they used to come off at a much higher rate when the stones were new), I tend to get quite a number of deeper scratches from the DMT extra fine stone along with the fine scratches. Is it just a problem with my DMT extra fine stones, or is it a problem with the finer DMT stones in general? Thanks to the deeper-than-grit-size-implies scratches from the "extra fine" stones, especially with the A2 and PM-V11 blades I find myself spending what I consider to be inordinate time on the strop when I want to either smooth or pare, trying to keep from leaving lines in the work. What do I mean by inordinate? I mean that with an A2 #60 1/2 block plane blade or a #5 Stanley replacement PM-V11 blade it takes ~10-15 minutes on the strop working the bevel plus a minute or two of back and forth between bevel and back to chase the burr; my original Stanley #5 O1 plane blade takes noticeably less time, more like 5 minutes or so, but I have to go back to the stone and the strop more often because it doesn't hold the edge I want as long as the PM-V11. So much stropping takes up too much of my valuable shop time, which is often limited to 30 minutes or less while our youngest is napping; I'd rather be working wood than sharpening. My second problem with this setup is that the leather strop rounds off the edge more than I'd like; the edge from whatever angle primary bevel I have comes out somewhere higher than that after 10 minutes (or even a few minutes) on a leather strop. This rounding off is particularly a problem with the gouges. I made a wooden strop, but for the plane blades in particular I didn't like that it was even slower than the leather to give me a smoothing-quality edge and I still had to sharpen on the pull stroke only (I prefer push-pull or side-to-side without losing contact with the sharpening media rather than having to lift and re-set the blade over and over). The wooden strops are not such a speed problem for the gouges--being O1 or similar steel and smaller blades, they don't take so long and I can still avoid rounding the edge and thereby increasing the bevel angle. I still wasn't happy with this system after a few years of working with it, so I decided to get another stone.

Based on what I have read, Arkansas stones are going to be relatively slow thanks to the hard carbides present in the A2 and PM-V11 blades I often use, and aren't likely to get these steels as sharp as a diamond stone or aluminum oxide stone will because they aren't sharpening the carbides themselves so much. My only personal experience with any Arkansas stone is with a multiform slip for my carving gouges, and which I haven't used for A2 or PM-V11. Perhaps I was mistaken in deciding not to get a high-quality Arkansas stone, but I didn't want to spend the money to see for myself only to be disappointed. I also didn't want a finer diamond stone (I don't want to worry about yet more "rogue diamond" issues--I've had more than my fill of those). So, about a month ago I purchased a Pride Abrasives 8000 grit water stone (listed as 2 micron aluminum oxide grit) to try to improve my sharpening setup; when needed, I go from the extra fine diamond stone to the 8000 grit stone and from there to the strop. I find that this stone cuts at least as fast as my extra fine diamond and leaves a sharper edge; based on the cutting speed, I only continue to use the extra fine diamond to reduce the wear on the 8k. The resulting edge has a very consistent scratch pattern instead of having lots of fine scratches with some deep ones, and has a matte finish instead of the polish I've read about for 8k stones. The lack of polish may simply be that the grit is staying sharp as the manufacturer claims it should and is rolling around on the surface during sharpening instead of sticking in place. I don't care about polish, just sharpness; however, this 8k stone doesn't get the blades as sharp as I want. Maybe I'm not using the stone properly: the edge I get directly off the stone is plenty sharp for most applications, but not good enough for paring end grain--I have to go to the strop for that. As hoped, I do indeed spend much less time at the strop; it's now 2-3 minutes for a PM-V11 plane blade instead of 10-15. Much better. The hardwood strop is still slower; more like 5 minutes to paring/smoothing sharpness. So, it seems that I would save time (and get a better edge for paring thanks to the lack of rounding over) if I purchased a finer stone that also cuts faster than the strop. I'm happier now with the amount of time spent sharpening than I was before the 8k stone but not yet happy per se. Maybe I simply don't have enough experience with the 8k yet to know how to use it optimally.

Here's how I am presently using the 8k stone, in case there are suggestions on how I can improve (how could there not be? I'm asking for suggestions on sharpening!): first, if I haven't used the stone in a few days (such that it's dried out a bit--it sits out on my sharpening bench instead of in water) when I expect I'll be sharpening in the next few minutes I squirt water on top of the stone until the soaking in starts to slow down. If I was using it the previous day (or earlier the same day), I start with a quick splash. Then when I am ready to sharpen, immediately before I start on the diamond plate(s) and then again immediately before moving to the 8k I add more water--at this point it stands on the surface. Using fairly light pressure (the weight of the blade plus perhaps the weight of my forearms, but not pressing down per se) I lift the angle slightly from where I had it on the extra fine diamond stone so that I am only working right near the edge, and using a figure-8 pattern (and moving that pattern around over the whole face of the stone) I work the edge until I get a very small burr all the way across. I then chase the burr using just the weight of the blade and a side-to-side sharpening motion until I can't feel it anymore. It takes about 30 seconds or so to raise the burr and another few strokes on the back and bevel to chase it. I have tried push/pull, fully side-to-side, the figure-8, and slightly elliptical motion, and for the initial burr formation they all seem pretty much equivalent but ending with a side-to-side motion for chasing the burr seems to get a sharper edge for me, and the way I am handling the figure 8 gives me a very slight camber that works well for me for smoothing. Am I doing something wrong that is keeping my edge from getting sharp enough to pare end grain pine? I have tried leaving the slurry on the stone between sharpenings, washing it off, keeping standing water in place, letting it "dry" (to the point that the surface is only damp) and I get about the same results. Every time I've tried going from the 8k stone directly to paring end grain hard maple (a "testing" scrap from the current project) compared to a stropped edge I have to apply more force to get a dull-looking surface (think high-grit sandpaper) that doesn't have the silky smooth feel I want. Stropping always fixes this. Results on end grain pine (straight off the 8k) include some crushing of the fibers.

Finally, one of the largest time sinks I presently have in sharpening occurs when I take my bench chisels from the role of chopping mortises (no drilling: I enjoy the process and the skill-building) to being able to pare, such as paring the shoulders of the associated tenons. I have my bench chisels sharpened at what I might call an all-purpose angle. I don't have a number for you, but for these particular chisels it's high enough to chop a couple mortises in hard maple before the edge is visibly damaged (small chips, typically), but low enough that after the strop the same (or approximately the same) angle can pare end grain pine without crushing the fibers. To keep mortising if the edge seems to be perceptibly dulling (taking more effort to chop), I go to the coarse diamond stone to quickly touch up the edge and go right back; if I'm going to chop more than a few mortises I'll temporarily raise the angle of the bevel so that the edge lasts longer. If I am going to pare instead, I use all of my stones (lowering the bevel back down on the coarse stone if i have to) plus the strop. So, I would save time by getting dedicated mortise chisels so I don't damage my bench chisel edges and/or dedicated paring chisels so I don't have to take a mortising-dulled edge back to paring sharpness, or by getting a finer stone that cuts faster than the strop.

So that you can get an idea of what kind of woodworking I do and therefore perhaps provide more-informed advice, some of my near-term and just-completed projects are as follows: a corner bookshelf in hard maple (in progress), a step platform in pine (kind of like a very wide and long footstool, recently completed), a carved picture frame in figured maple (frame completed, relief carving soon to follow); a small sawbench-type "workbench" in pine for my soon-to-be-4-year-old son that he'll be able to use as simply a sawbench later on (just started; borrows heavily from Jim Koepke's sawbench posts: thanks, Jim!); some small dovetailed decorative boxes in oak, maple, and hickory with inlay including a few exotic species; and a bed in cherry.

Any purchases would most likely be of new tools rather than antiques: my shop time is quite limited and I would rather work wood rather than rehab old tools. I am open to antique tools in good condition that would require little to no rehab, however, particularly antique oval bolstered mortise chisels if I could find the size I'd want (5/16 or 3/8 for working with 5/4 stock).

If I were to make a purchase of a sharpening stone, mortise chisel(s), or paring chisel(s), Lee Valley is one of my default options for good tools; every Veritas tool I own is excellent, and I don't see anything from Lie-Nielsen that seems to fit what I'm looking for in any of these categories. I am open to suggestions on alternative vendors. The Ray Iles oval bolstered mortise chisels from Tools for Working Wood, for example, certainly have a good reputation; Derek Cohen's comments, however, regarding a comparison between his Ray Iles and pre-production Veritas mortise chisels have me leaning toward the Veritas if I go the mortise chisel route. For the sharpening stone, it appears that (among Lee Valley's offerings) only the 13k Sigma stone is substantially finer than my Pride Abrasives 8k, and Stuart Tierney is a big proponent of the 13k Sigma. Again, I am open to suggestions. I haven't investigated paring chisels, so I would be happy to hear suggestions there, too, if you believe they're a worthwhile investment for me right now.

So, at long last we come to the meat of my advice-seeking: in your opinion, would I be better off:
1. Improving my technique with the 8k stone (in which case, please provide tips) so that I spend less time on the strop when I want to pare or smooth
2. Adding dedicated paring and mortising chisels to my set so I don't have to worry about the time spent sharpening up to paring level after mortising
3. Purchasing a finer but fast (for its grit level) stone so I can continue using the same chisel set as multi-purpose and avoid rounding the edges on my shoulder plane blade and chisels
4. More than one of the above
5. Something I haven't thought of yet that you would suggest I do instead

Thank you in advance.

Michael Bulatowicz

[David Bassett]

Wow. I hope some of the more experienced sharpeners get through that wall of words. I doubt I have a full solution for you, but a couple thoughts sprang to mind.

First thought was the possibility you're using too much pressure. I've never heard of anyone regularly knocking diamonds out of a DMT plate and rounding an edge on a strop is caused by too much pressure for the strop (or conversely too soft of a strop) or rolling the tool. But if you were rolling the tool you'd have trouble on your stones too.

Next thought is my notes say DiaSharp XF is ~1200 grit. Your extra stone in your sequence should help. Though I've never used, or seen a review of, a Pride stone.

Lastly, Stu's 13000 Sigma was the Power line. LV lists their Sigma stone as the "Power Select II". Since Stu stocked the Select II stones as distinct from the Power stones, it's unclear to me what you'd get from LV. (Search this forum, it was discussed... a couple(?) years ago. IIRC- Select II gives up fresh abrasive and therefore wears much quicker than the stone Stu was recommending.)

It seems like you should be getting better results with what you have. I'd consider myself an "OK" sharpener. But I took some chisels to a class I'd sharpened up to 5K (Suehiro Rika) and Chris Gochnour grabbed one to pare some end grain. When he returned it he commented "that's nice & sharp", so maybe I don't suck as much as I'd assumed. Seems like I'm doing OK with less effort and lesser stones than you have. (Alternate thought: maybe your standards are unrealistically high? :) )

Oh, another thought about stropping. If you want to experiment with a firmer strop, the old guy that teaches carving at our local Woodcraft strops on the uncoated side of cereal box cardboard taped to MDF. He says it works as well and is cheaper than leather. It'd at least be a cheap way to test my soft strop theory.

[Tom M King]

First, thanks for asking for advice, and not advise.

Just a single point. The Sigma stones are relatively soft. I have some of both the Select II, and Power stones. One of mine, the 10k, I bought from an internet sharpening guru proponent of sharpening only by hand. I've used that stone for at least five years now, and in spite of being flattened many times, it's still full of gouges that it came with.

I think people who only sharpen, or even mostly only by hand, are better served by harder stones like Shaptons.

[Jim Koepke]

David was observant, that is quite a wall of words. Let me attempt to get through it.


with an A2 #60 1/2 block plane blade or a #5 Stanley replacement PM-V11 blade it takes ~10-15 minutes

It was a book on wood carving by Chris Pye that encouraged me to use a strop on my woodworking blades. Before that my only use for a strop was on a straight razor. He also mentions in his book there being no reason for more than 10 strokes on either side of the blade. According to him, more than this is a cause for rounding the edge. Most of the time my blades get ~5 strokes per side if they are stropped.

My finest water stone is a Norton 8000. All the grit charts put it at 3µ size grit particles. It gets hair shaving sharp right off the stone. It wasn't until learning to use water stones that my abilities developed on oilstones. During some experimental sharpening it became clear that stropping can improve an edge but it can also deteriorate an edge. A blade fresh of the 8K stone could shave arm hair. After a few too many strokes on the strop, it could not shave my arm hair.

My belief is a finer stone could give me sharper blades. But to what purpose? Another comment in Chris Pye's book was the test of sharpness for chisels/gouges was the ability to cut across the grain or end grain while leaving a smooth surface. My lowly Norton 8000 is able to produce such an edge.

421837

This blade may have actually been sharpened on an Arkansas stone before this picture was taken. The area directly below the chisel was pared before the shaving that is being lifted in the picture.

Another thought is my chisel set is not for the minimalist. My paring chisels have bevels in the 15-20º range. My firmer chisels have ~30º bevels. A 30º bevel is not as good at shaving end grain or across grain.

A sharp blade makes all the difference. This was done with a very sharp spokeshave blade:

421838

That is the top of a mallet handle.

My technique may be different than yours. For straight edged tools my tendency is to go back and forth as straight as possible. Occasionally a side to side stroke will be used if a blade is giving me some problems. This is usually limited in its use.

For gouges and curved blades other methods such as a figure eight may be used.

One thing that may be of help is if you have a video camera available is to record your sharpening. A view from the side can reveal if you are maintaining a constant angle or if you are rounding your edge during sharpening.

In conclusion:

1) Even after years of sharpening my feeling is my technique is always open to improvement.
2) Yes, a few dedicated paring chisels may be a great investment. My set is old Buck Brothers with low bevels. The O1 steel seems to be better at the low angle bevels than A2. Not sure how low one can go with the PMv11 edges. Only one of my blades is of that composition and it is in a spokeshave.
3) As much as a new finer stone appeals to me, it doesn't really seem to be a solution to anything affecting the edges on my blades. You may find you should invest in a lower grit stone to prep your blade before hitting the 8000.
4) Yep.
5) Try stopping less. At least test your blade straight off the stone before stropping, then again after stropping. You may come to the same conclusion that too much stropping isn't helpful.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Michael

Selecting just a few areas ...

Chasing the burr ... Different steel types leave different wire edges. As do different sharpening media. A2 steel is notorious for creating a tenacious wire. I find the wire off an O1 and PM-V11 blade to be similar. Diamond stones can also be coarser in their work. Further, the size of the wire is going to be related to how you sharpen, for example, whether you are heavy handed when forming the primary bevel.

Waterstones differ in the amount of water they require and also in the amount of slurry they form. Similar grits can be of different hardness. In sum, it is difficult to equate one with another. For several years I have been using the Shapton Pro 1000, preferring it to a Sigma, and then the Sigma 6000/13000 stones. I have not been tempted to change or explore anything else. It works for me, and that is good enough. All I can say it that one should get what works for you, and stick with it for at least 12 months.

Of all the steels easily available - that is, not vintage steels in short supply - two stand out to me as the best. For chisels, there are two: white steel and PM-V11. For plane blades, PM-V11. All the hype about PM-V11 has been verified, not just by myself (and since I have been involved with Veritas for a good many years field testing before production, my word is suspect to some), but also by David Weaver, who has recently completed some extensive testing. He was very skeptical going in, and came out a complete convert. It needs to be noted, however, that chisels are more than just the steel in the blade. They need to feel right in the hand, and work for you as desired. The three chisels sets I use are Koyamaichi, Veritas PM-V11, and Blue Spruce dovetail chisels. The latter are A2, but just so wonderful in the hand - which illustrates my point. At the end of the day, however, it is not the tool that is responsible for the product, but one’s skill in using it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jason Buresh]

One thing I didn't see you mention is if you flatten your waterstone or not? From what I have learned and read I dress my stone before using it. I guess I am not 100% the reason for this, but I believe it takes out the fine scratches and highs and lows out from the last sharpening session

Also, maybe you are using to much pressure in the stropping phase? I used to round off edges on my blades when I first started stropping because someone told me 50 strokes as hard as you can on the strop was how they did it. I quickly learned that was bad advice for the tools I use. I have found that when it comes to stropping, for me less is more

I am not an expert, so take what I said for what it's worth, but this is what I have learned from my experience

[Derek Cohen]

Jason, the only stropping I do is really to ensure that the last vestige of the wire is gone. I use a piece of planed hardwood with green compound scribbled on top.

The "50 strokes" is a Paul Sellers thing, and this is because his last stone is a 1200 diamond stone.

Regards from Vienna (presently)

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I sharpen a chisel in about 70 seconds, full flat bevel; I never use a grinder. I have a lot of experience. Here is my advice.

I would lay aside the diamond stones and go with either water stones or oil stones. Look to traditional advice, not gimmicks.

I would buy one mortise chisel, either 1/4 or 5/16. I would buy the Narex chisel. They are a much better design than the Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen.

[Jason Buresh]

Hi Derek,

Sorry I meant to reply to the OP but I accidentally replied to you.

Anyway, I have found 10 slow strokes with moderate equal pressure to be all I need on a strop to get an edge good enough for me.

Hello from Wisconsin!

Jason

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello David,



Thanks for your response. Wall of words, indeed; excellent description. Perhaps I am still using too much pressure; noting, however, that the coarse DMT plate has never had any diamonds come loose even though I used to use much higher pressure than I do now; I’ve always used a lighter touch on the extra fine than the coarse. Not that it matters terribly if I’m not going to buy a new stone, but I have found elsewhere (I can look it up and post a link if it’s helpful) Stu saying that Sigma made a decision to market the 13k Power stone under the “Select II” label, but that it’s the same stone.



Based on your experience and Jim’s, it seems 8k should be more than enough.



Best regards,

Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Tom,



Thank you for the feedback. I did find a video of Stu showing off his 1k-6k-13k Sigma Power set, in which he mentioned that the 13k is a rather hard stone (though not as hard as the 6k). As I mentioned in my reply to David, I have also found a post from Stu saying that Sigma decided to market the 13k Power under the “Select II” label. I can provide links to both of these if it helps. Whether what he considers fairly hard is hard enough for my sharpening style, I don’t know; the grooves you describe are indeed concerning if I were to try going that route. Thank you for warning me on this.



Best regards,

Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Jim,

Thanks for your detailed reply (and for making it through the wall); particularly your notes about the 8k stone you use and the resulting sharp edge you obtain. Between your notes (along with Derek’s and Jason’s) about the number of strokes on the strop and Derek’s discussion of the size and tenacity of the burr (particularly in regards to its relationship to how heavy-handed I might be), it seems to me that I am likely greatly underestimating the tenacity of the burrs I am raising on my stones and insufficiently chasing them before moving on—perhaps, I thought, I still have a substantial burr remaining after I think I have chased it. So, I decided to try an experiment. Rather than only chasing the burr until I couldn’t feel it, I continued chasing the burr for another minute or so on the 8k stone. The difference was dramatic; my test chisel does indeed now pare end grain pine straight off the 8k (with little tearing of the end grain). After only a few strokes on the strop, it gave me nice, clean shavings with no tearing of the grain. Thank you so much!

Thank you also for your suggestions on investing in paring chisels and avoiding the finer stone. Do you have a suggestion on grit size for an intermediate stone; perhaps 4k or so to split the difference between the DMT extra fine (nominally ~1200) versus the 8k?

Best regards,
Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Derek,

Thank you for your advice and input as well. As mentioned in my reply to Jim, the combination of your notes regarding the size and tenacity of the burr in particular and your notes (along with Jim’s and Jason’s) regarding number of strokes on a strop led me to try an experiment to find out if I was dramatically underestimating the tenacity of the burrs I was generating. The short version is: I was indeed, and thanks to the advice I’ve received I am now getting paring-level sharpness straight off the 8k stone. It seems likely, then, that I can find room for significant improvement from my other stones as well to reduce my overall sharpening time. This calls for more experiments.

Thank you also for your advice about various steels; I have observed the edge holding of PM-V11 myself in my Stanley-replacement blade for my #5. Sharpened to the level I prefer for smoothing, I have recently found I can flatten and smooth a 1x6x48 inch S4S figured maple board (going deep enough to remove tearout from the lumber mill) and then still take smooth end grain shavings of the same board. I tried again on a second 1x6x48 section cut from the same board with the original blade (OEM Stanley for the Type 11 #5) and after flattening the board the blade was no longer sharp enough for smoothing. I have never tried white steel, though I am now curious regarding whether I should look into white steel paring chisels.

Best regards,
Michael Bulatowicz

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Jason,

You’re absolutely right; I didn’t mention flattening. I’ve been using the DMT coarse stone for flattening, using the technique Stu Tierney showed in a video series showing his 1k-6k-13k set: draw lightly across the top of the stone with a pencil and rub with the diamond stone just until the pencil marks are gone. I haven’t been extremely diligent about this; if I’m sharpening wide blades such as my planes I let it go a few sharpenings between dressing the stone, while if I sharpen a ¼ inch chisel I’ll dress it before the next sharpening session. Thanks also for your notes about stropping. I had been following the advice of Paul Sellers in terms of stropping directly after the extra fine diamond as well as using a good deal of pressure on the strop; I guess I simply got into the habit of doing so after viewing a number of his videos when I first started woodworking. His method clearly works for him and it came in at a lower cost than a number of the other options out there, so that’s how I started out. I clearly stuck with it longer than I should have and it seems perhaps I had been doing it wrong (or at least missing subtleties) the whole time.

Best regards,
Michael Bulatowicz

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Warren,

Thank you for your advice and perspective as well. While I don’t know that I’d go so far as to classify diamond stones as gimmicks, I do indeed get better results from the 8000 grit water stone especially after incorporating the advice I have just received.

Would you elaborate, please, on what makes the Narex mortise chisel a better design?

Best regards,
Michael Bulatowicz

[Warren Mickley]

I believe the Narex chisels have a heavier bolster and heavier tang. I should think they would be easier to rehandle. The Lee Valley chisels have a long secondary bevel and a rounded heel. This is unfortunate since we ride the bevel when mortising and we pivot on the heel when levering out loose waste. A lot of material would have to be removed to correct these design flaws.

[Jim Koepke]

Hello Jim,

Thanks for your detailed reply (and for making it through the wall); particularly your notes about the 8k stone you use and the resulting sharp edge you obtain. Between your notes (along with Derek’s and Jason’s) about the number of strokes on the strop and Derek’s discussion of the size and tenacity of the burr (particularly in regards to its relationship to how heavy-handed I might be), it seems to me that I am likely greatly underestimating the tenacity of the burrs I am raising on my stones and insufficiently chasing them before moving on—perhaps, I thought, I still have a substantial burr remaining after I think I have chased it. So, I decided to try an experiment. Rather than only chasing the burr until I couldn’t feel it, I continued chasing the burr for another minute or so on the 8k stone. The difference was dramatic; my test chisel does indeed now pare end grain pine straight off the 8k (with little tearing of the end grain). After only a few strokes on the strop, it gave me nice, clean shavings with no tearing of the grain. Thank you so much!

Thank you also for your suggestions on investing in paring chisels and avoiding the finer stone. Do you have a suggestion on grit size for an intermediate stone; perhaps 4k or so to split the difference between the DMT extra fine (nominally ~1200) versus the 8k?

Best regards,
Michael

You are welcome Michael.

For my shop water stone sharpening station a 1000, a 2000, a 4000 and an 8000 stone tend to meet my needs. The outlier here is the 4000 stone by King. The others are from Norton. Often if a chisel or plane blade needs a touch up the 4 & 8000 stones are all it takes to get back to work. If there is light fracturing at the edge, then the 2000 is used. The 1000 gets used if there are any nicks in the edge. There are some lower grit stones in my accumulation but they are not as effective as abrasive sheets on a flat surface. From either the 1000 or 2000 stone the progression is to the 4000 then the 8000. Some will make a bigger jump, 1000 to the 8000. In this case one will likely spend the same amount of time either way.

My fine diamond stones live in a drawer in the kitchen and are only used to touch up knife blades between trips out to the shop.

A chart might help understand why there is a lot of confusion around grit size and comparison by manufacturers:

421869

Different makers have different standards.


I purchased a Pride Abrasives 8000 grit water stone (listed as 2 micron aluminum oxide grit)

My Norton 8000 grit water stone is listed at 3µ. One of my charts somewhere says my King 4000 is also 3µ grit particle size. It seems much harder than the Norton, so it can work with a little more pressure.

To some my stone flattening regimen is close to sacrilege. If some dishing is noticed they get a spin on an abrasive sheet. Some treat stone flattening as a ritual to be performed for each blade. Some are enamored by the quest of perfection. My satisfaction is with the simplicity of honing a blade capable of performing what is required of it.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

Just a couple little things now that the heavy weights have checked in. For reference, I am using DMT plates at 300-600-1200 and 4000, with some leather strops and flat boards with buffing compound on them.

Are you wetting your diamond plates? I used mine dry for a while, months, and then one of the sharpening debates here convinced me to try wet. So I got a little spray bottle with some simple green (33%? ) and water (67%?). I have never gone back to using them dry.

The way I learned DMT plates was to let the weight of the tool do the work. No pressing, just sliding.

Someone else already checked in about just moving flat blades back and forth, not side to side.

For wire removal I set the flat of the blade on my 4000 stone and just draw back one stroke, maybe half an inch or an inch to pull off the wire and flatten the back.

I agree too much stropping can round over an edge. One tip I picked up from Derek he already mentioned in this thread is skip the leather and put the buffing compound on a flat piece of wood.

[Jason Buresh]

Michael

Glad to hear you are getting better results.

I should have mentioned that I use a piece of leather with green compound. There's multiple ways to strop, but this works well for me. I have my strop glued to a flat board with a piece of dowel on the bottom to fit in one of my dog holes.

I have also found after working with a tool I try the strop before I go to my stones. Usually a strop will bring back a serviceable edge if I haven't ignored or abused it. I have found keeping a strop close by while I am working and maintaining an edge beats using a tool until it's dull and having to bust out the stones.

When stropping I treat it like I do a stone. What I mean by that is I hold the chisel at a bevel like you would on a stone and I make slow strokes with moderate even pressure. I do this 5-10 times and I have a good edge.

Again, this may or may not work well for you, but with the tools I use it keeps me happy and productive.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Warren,

Thanks for the quick response and the information on the Narex mortise chisels.

Best regards,
Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello again Jim,

Thanks for the additional advice and information.

Since you suggested paring chisels, would you have suggestions regarding sizes? For paring tasks so far, I find myself using my 1 inch chisel (my widest size) often for further defining knife lines and for paring tenon cheeks to fit and tenon shoulders to their knife lines, and my 1/4 inch (my narrowest) for “detail paring” for lack of a better term such as for dovetails. I don’t often use anything between these two for paring, and sometimes wish for wider or narrower chisels. Perhaps I just answered my own question, but I’d like to get some input from someone much more experienced.

Best regards,
Michael

[Tom M King]

Hello Tom,



Thank you for the feedback. I did find a video of Stu showing off his 1k-6k-13k Sigma Power set, in which he mentioned that the 13k is a rather hard stone (though not as hard as the 6k). As I mentioned in my reply to David, I have also found a post from Stu saying that Sigma decided to market the 13k Power under the “Select II” label. I can provide links to both of these if it helps. Whether what he considers fairly hard is hard enough for my sharpening style, I don’t know; the grooves you describe are indeed concerning if I were to try going that route. Thank you for warning me on this.



Best regards,

Michael

I don't know which Sigma the used 10k is, but I expect the Select II. The 13k does seem to be quite a bit harder. I owned only oil stones for some decades, and it was probably early '90's when I bought my first water stones-Nortons. A few years ago, I started trying the Sigma's, and found them to be noticeably faster than the Nortons. All of mine, except for the one used one that started me into Sigmas, came from Stu.

When I use water stones, they are under running water, and no presoaking required since the surface has a continuous, and immediate supply of water. I do live in a place where water runs out of the ground, all around, and our electricity is generated by the water running downhill.

My Sigmas include the full range from 400, to 13K. If irons need a touchup in the middle of a job, they are started at 6k. Since the others are right there at hand, there is little saved by stopping at a lower grit. I work mainly old Heart Pine, and Cypress, and cutting edges (mostly 01) typically last a half day. I always felt like the sharper they are to start with, the longer they work before going back to the sharpening sink.

We still use oil stones if we are working somewhere away from the main setup. Our jobs typically last a year, or two, or more, and those get the full shop setup during.

Just as in flattening backs, the more steps there are in the progression, the less time needs to be spent at each step, and the less overall.

I sharpen both by hand, and with jigs, but my helpers are hopeless without jigs. There are many ways to get there, with different justified stopping points. I've never heard anyone complain that an edge was too sharp, but many justify sharp enough. I like to get them as sharp as I can. I'm a feel sharpener, and never bother to make, or feel for a wire edge. The reason I don't like diamond stones, mainly, is that there is no feel. The feel from the Sigmas suits me just fine-really not much different than Arkansas stones.

I never strop, but do sometimes use Diamond Lapping Film (finest at a tenth of a micron) on a granite surface plate on top of the counter of my sharpening sink. Stones are flattened on 140, and 400 Atoma sheets on another granite surface plate that also sits on the sharpening sink counter. The sharpening sink is 92 inches long, with a sink at one end. A second faucet, with a double swivel spout can cover anything sitting on the counter. Since the sink just drains outside, there is no need to have a trap, since no sewer gas is involved. The sink also has a small water heater, so we use it to wash hands before going to lunch, and cleaning latex paint brushes (we do many different things, that includes some woodworking).

Those 1k-6k-13k stones are in my lineup, and would be hard to top for a three stone lineup.

edited to add: I can't post the link to my website here, because only these forums restrict it since I'm not a paid advertiser (never spent the first dollar on advertising anywhere, and am not taking on any more work for the rest of my life-anyway....), but you can find it if you click on my user profile. It will give a small sampling of what I have done for a living for 45 years now.

[Jim Koepke]

Hello again Jim,

Thanks for the additional advice and information.

Since you suggested paring chisels, would you have suggestions regarding sizes? For paring tasks so far, I find myself using my 1 inch chisel (my widest size) often for further defining knife lines and for paring tenon cheeks to fit and tenon shoulders to their knife lines, and my 1/4 inch (my narrowest) for “detail paring” for lack of a better term such as for dovetails. I don’t often use anything between these two for paring, and sometimes wish for wider or narrower chisels. Perhaps I just answered my own question, but I’d like to get some input from someone much more experienced.

Best regards,
Michael

The size of your paring chisels depends on the size of the work on which you will be using them. Some of my dovetails and other joinery using paring chisels has been on 2X stock up to 2X12s. You will want chisels sized to your joints. For paring chisels my set was put together from old Buck Brothers socket chisels. This likely happened because my brother gave me a couple he found at an estate sale. They worked fine and impressed me enough to purchase more Buck Bros chisels as they showed up in rust hunts and on ebay. The set was recently completed from 1/8" to 1" with 1/8" increments. For the larger chisels there are a few different 1-1/4", 1-1/2" and a single 2" Stanley. The larger chisels come in handy for paring tenon cheeks. For dovetail paring the side lands should be of low profile. Some chisels for dovetails have a triangular shape. This allows them to reach into tight corners on the tail board without marring the tail. For paring between the pins a square sided chisel will be fine and possibly preferred. On dovetails, the space between the tails or pins should be a little wider than your chisel. It isn't easy to pare a 1/4" space between pins or tails with a 3/8" chisel. It is also inconvenient to pare a 3" wide lap joint with a 1/4" chisel.

When quite a few 1/4" chisels had accumulated in my shop, two were chosen to be ground with skewed bevels. My first set of skew chisels was made from a pair of Witherby 1/2" square sided chisels:

421878

These are usable but a bit large for some applications.

Sometimes a larger chisel is preferred on some projects:

421879

Trimming tenons is easier with a chisel sized to the tenon:

421880

The tenon is 1" and so is the chisel.

For me choosing which sizes to get was difficult, so why not just get them all. This philosophy doesn't work for everyone. There are at least five different sets (types) of chisels in my shop in various stages of completion. A couple of the sets are made up of examples all or mostly from a single maker. Then there are a bunch of random chisels from random makers. They all tend to get used.

jtk

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Thanks again, Jim.

You’ve given me plenty to consider, and I’ll put some more thought into what sizes and types are likely to be most useful based on the projects I’ve done and plan to do, particularly in regards to sizing the chisels to the work.

Best regards,
Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Thanks again, Tom.

You have a fair point that an edge can’t be too sharp; if it takes only an extra minute or so to go to the finest edge you can (and subsequently also gives you a significantly longer lasting edge) it seems quite worthwhile. Would it be fair to say that you would suggest I add the finer stone to my lineup?

I’d argue that the feel of diamond stones is certainly different, but after using them for a few years I can generally tell by how the bevel feels on the stone whether I have raised a burr or not. Backs are a different matter. The waterstone certainly has a different feel, but I’ve not had enough experience with it to give an informed opinion.

Best regards,
Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Thanks again, Jason. I keep my strop hanging next to the vise for the same basic reason, but find I can only go a few rounds there fefore it’s back to the stones. However, it seems I was over-stropping to begin with and so perhaps with my improving technique I’ll find myself using it more often between sharpenings.

Best regards,
Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Scott,

I have used the diamond stones both wet and dry and found that I prefer them wet when I want them to be more aggressive and dry when I want them to act as as if they were slightly finer grit. With the 8k stone now in my lineup and perhaps adding an intermediate stone, I’ll probably switch to always using them wet. Thanks for the tip on the Simple Green.

Best regards,
Michael

[Tom M King]

Send me a couple of chisels. I'll sharpen one stopping at the 13k, and the other as sharp as I can get it. I'll send them back, and you can decide where you want to stop in the process. It will only take me a minute, or two. Both the same metal would make the best test.

The thick shaving in the picture with the chisel is the one in the micrometer. The chisel is rolling up backsaw ridges.

[Derek Cohen]

...

I would buy one mortise chisel, either 1/4 or 5/16. I would buy the Narex chisel. They are a much better design than the Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen.

Warren, I am curious to understand what makes the Narex mortice chisel so much better than either the Veritas or the LN. They are all so different, not only in size, but in steel for the blades. All of them - including the Narex - add a secondary bevel. The primary bevel on both the Veritas and the Narex is 25 degrees.

Regards from Vienna

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, I am curious to understand what makes the Narex mortice chisel so much better than either the Veritas or the LN. They are all so different, not only in size, but in steel for the blades. All of them - including the Narex - add a secondary bevel. The primary bevel on both the Veritas and the Narex is 25 degrees.


Sorry, I did not know that the Narex mortise chisels were ground at 25 degrees. The ones that I examined some years ago did not have a 25 degree bevel, and I have seen pictures of Narex mortise chisels that had bevels around 30 degrees.

I would not recommend that someone who does not know how to use a mortise chisel buy a whole set of chisels of any brand, let alone an expensive brand where one might be buying more marketing than chisel.

[Derek Cohen]

Further to the differences: the Veritas is available in PM-V11 and A2, the LN in A2 only, and the Narex in Manganese Chrome. Of these, technically, there is no doubt in my mind that the PM-V11 is the best steel. Having stated this, for morticing - unless you were doing it all day long - I rather doubt that many could tell the difference between the steels. Before Lee Valley released their mortice chisels, I completed some extended testing. This consisted of many metres of chopping mortices into oak. I used PM-V11, A2, and my vintage Ward oval bolstered chisels. All just kept going .. and going.

Ian Kirby wrote a useful article on morticing, here: https://www.woodworkersjournal.com/hand-cutting-mortise-and-tenons/. In this he describes and demonstrates two methods of using mortice chisels.

There are a number more. The method I have been using is essentially the Maynard. I demo it here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MorticingByChisel.html

There is also a description of the Ray Iles morticing chisels here, along with the Maynard version: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/MORTISE_BY_HAND.pdf

And not forgetting Warren’s emphasis on riding the bevel, which is demoed by Ian Kirby above. Warren, hopefully you will comment on that, and the methods above.

Regards from Vienna

Derek

[steven c newman]

Hmm..guess I could go to the shop and measure mine..
421903
Been using it, today...anyway..
421904

Lumber is Ash, BTW...

[Derek Cohen]

Steven, as per Warren, can you comment on the different mortice chisel designs (including the way the bevel is angled/shaped), and relate that to the various morticing methods?

Background: Warren frequently refers to a straight 30- or 35 degree bevel on his mortice chisel, as this makes it easier to ride the bevel. I get that and don’t dispute that ... in fact, I am going to try it for myself. However, I have used a different method for years, and am aware of other methods for morticing ... and I wonder whether a lower primary bevel plus high bevel suit those methods better than a single high bevel. I am also aware that Japanese mortice chisels typically have a single bevel, also usually 30-35 degrees, but cannot recall what method I have watched being used with these chisels. Does form follow function?

Regards from Vienna

Derek

[steven c newman]

Just went to the shop...Narex chisels have a 25 degree SINGLE bevel.....FACTORY EDGE. Using a Veritas guide to check/set bevels from an old MK1 Honing guide.

I do "ride" the bevel...but only at the end of a mortise....then turn the chisel around, and finish the end square.

The single Japanese Mortise chisel I have (12mm) had a 25 degree single bevel. Of course, mine came from Okinawa....

I also have a Witherby 3/8 Mortise chisel....haven't bothered to check it's bevel.....tis a bit well used, before I even bought it.

[Derek Cohen]

Thank you Steven. Can you describe or demonstrate the method by which you mortice?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Tom,

Thanks for the kind offer: your willingness to demonstrate in a way that I could experience for myself and not just read about, see in a photo, or watch on a video is much appreciated. I think you’ve convinced me simply by offering to let me see the difference between ending at 13k and going farther that I’d benefit from at least the 13k and likely more; the full potential may be above my skill level at the moment, but I enjoy a challenge and building my skills. I may take you up on the offer just to experience what you consider sharp and how it differs from my current standards.

Best regards,
Michael

[Tom M King]

No problem. Theory is much talked about here, but having something in your hands will tell you a lot more than theory. PM for my address. I'll get them right back to you.

[steven c newman]

Well....right now, the Narex 6mm is a bit busy....
421922
Chopping the waste from between a few fingers.....but..
421923
Last set of mortises done. Ganged up a set of stiles. Start at the far end of each mortise, with the bevel facing me....then the last chop, turn the chisel around, and square the near end, with the bevel facing away. Repeat until depth is reached...
421924
I use 3 chisels...
421925
Mortise chisel. The bevel edge one for cleaning the walls if needed. Fancy handle has a curved blade, to clean out chips, rather than use the mortise chisel to pry them out.

[Tom M King]

I've never spent much time thinking about it, but I start in the middle, and go both ways.

[steven c newman]

A look at what I use...YMMV..
.421972
I use the old MK1 to set the bevel angle.....the guide is from Irwin/Marples. Set right now to hone a 6mm mortise chisel @ 25 degrees...
421973
Honed to 2500 grit...then stropped. Went through 3 such chisels last night,,,,
421974
I think that will do, for now....been using that 6mm one this evening...had some fingers of Ash to chop...

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

....

I would not recommend that someone who does not know how to use a mortise chisel buy a whole set of chisels of any brand, let alone an expensive brand where one might be buying more marketing than chisel.

^^^ This.


I looked at the Narex, Veritas and LN chisels and ended up buying some Ashley Iles chisels from the UK. Good old English Sheffield quality. No sense in buying a whole set, only buy what your immediate needs are.