Fractal wood burning, Lichtenberg figures

[Pat Barry]

I've seen some very interesting videos recently using high voltage for doing wood burning. The techniques rely on using a microwave oven transformer or some called an oil burner transformer to step up the 115 VAC line voltage to several thousand and then use high voltage probes to electrify the wood and cause lightening like wood burns. Does anyone here have experience with this and if so, what equipment have you used? I'm thinking this might be a fun (albeit potentially dangerous) thung to try.

[Pat Barry]

Here is a link to a YouTube video that shows an example of the process and results
YouTube https://youtu.be/17cqotU5vrQ

[Frank Pratt]

There are quite a number of people who thought it would be fun to try, but who are now dead.

[John K Jordan]

There are quite a number of people who thought it would be fun to try, but who are now dead.

https://www.woodturner.org/page/FractalBurning

https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/news/woodworking-industry-news/death-prompts-ban-fractal-burning

[Frank Pratt]

I've watched a lot of fractal burning videos and speaking as a master electrician, am horrified at what I've seen. Some of them show some reasonable precautions, most don't. They all should be have exhaustive explanations of the hazards, but that is usually limited to a few words. These people don't even know enough to have a clue what they are playing at.

Can it be done safely? Certainly it can, with the correct knowledge, equipment and procedures. I've not seen a single video that comes close to doing that.

[Pat Barry]

I've watched a lot of fractal burning videos and speaking as a master electrician, am horrified at what I've seen. Some of them show some reasonable precautions, most don't. They all should be have exhaustive explanations of the hazards, but that is usually limited to a few words. These people don't even know enough to have a clue what they are playing at.

Can it be done safely? Certainly it can, with the correct knowledge, equipment and procedures. I've not seen a single video that comes close to doing that.

What precautions would you recommend Frank? I'm particularly interested in the equipment side of this.

[Barry McFadden]

What precautions would you recommend Frank? I'm particularly interested in the equipment side of this.

If you want to go ahead with this I would recommend a purchased burner such as this https://conestogaworks.com/woodburners.html instead of jerry rigging one out of a microwave transformer. I briefly thought about giving fractial woodburning a try but decided, from a safety aspect, it just wasn't worth it. I've also read of major woodworking shows that will not accept any entries that have been done with this method..

[Grant Wilkinson]

I've done many of these, using my home made unit. As others have said, this is beyond dangerous if done incorrectly. As a starting point, stay far away from microwave transformers!! The amperage of these units is way to high. There is a commercially available unit available. Search on Conestoga. Mine is very similar to that one. I use an oil burner transformer, putting out high voltage, very low amperage. I used silicone wires rates to much higher than the current flowing through them, non-conductive probes and non-conductive clamps holding the probes. I stand on rubber mats and use high current rated gloves. I have two switches and a red warning light that all must be one before the current flows, and I trigger everything with a floor mounted on/off pedal.

I'm not saying that my method or anyone's is foolproof. When dealing with this amount of electricity, there is always a risk. I like the effect and am willing to take what I believe is an acceptable risk to achieve the results. However, as the links show, people have died using these things.

Here is a Youtube channel of a guy that does a lot of this. He has instructions on making units. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2yQgpNvbdVj13IcRSBICHQ

Just an FYI, the AAW has banned all advertising of fractal units and will not permit any demonstrators to use them in sponsored or club presentations.

Edit. Barry and I seem to be typing at the same time, so there is some duplication between his post and mine.

[Pat Barry]

I understand the hazards of high voltage. My thought however is never trust the cables or probe handles. I would only use this in a remote mode wherein I would place the probes, stand back and use a switch to start and stop the process. I would never use hand held probes like I see on some of the videos. The microwave transformer method is as scary as the oil burner transformer method, although the voltages are much lower and therefore easier to insulate. The Congestoga equipment looks to be of the oil burner method.

[Myk Rian]

Having been in the furnace control trade for 35 yrs, I can attest to the use of a furnace ignition transformer. We used to play with them as apprentices, and had fun building Jacobs' ladders.
They were about 6kv at enough current to jump start up to .5", climbing to 2-3". Much safer than jury-rigging a MW xfrmr.
I have one in the garage I used as a stage prop one year.

[Eric Danstrom]

If you think how many people actual do fractal burning and consider the number of deaths it's got to be 1% to 5% death rate. I'd hate to come upon a dead fractal burner on fire as has been reported in the news. Ouch, that's gotta suck....

[Frank Pratt]

I understand the hazards of high voltage.

Everybody knows the hazards of high voltage. What most don't know is how it behaves at different voltages and how it will interact with what we normally think of as nonconductive surfaces.

[Barry McFadden]

It's not high voltage that is the killer... it's high current. You can have high voltage at very low current and not be harmed. No matter what the voltage is, low or high, if there is a high current associated with it that's where the danger is. Current as low as 200mA can be fatal.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Barry is correct. The oil burner transformer that I have is an Allanson. Secondary voltage is 10,000, but the current is 23mA. The microwave oven transformers are much lower voltage, but the current from some of them is 500mA. Neon sign transformers are similar in current to the oil burner ones.

[Pat Barry]

The current that will result from human contact is a function of the voltage applied. Higher voltage will proportionally result in higher current. Higher voltages also cause breakdown of the skin. After breakdown the current will increase. Regardless, if your heart is in the circuit there is a fatal potential. Thats why I would never trust a handheld device. I just don't think they are safe enough. I need further info regarding the current capacity of all of these transformers though. Not sure if the rating on the transformer spec sheet can be taken at face value. Certainly the current involved in these applications is much higher than needed to be fatal.

[John K Jordan]

It's not high voltage that is the killer... it's high current. You can have high voltage at very low current and not be harmed. No matter what the voltage is, low or high, if there is a high current associated with it that's where the danger is. Current as low as 200mA can be fatal.

I agree - the high voltage by itself is not necessarily a problem but can enable the current to get into the body, "punch" through the skin even if the normal resistance is high from dry skin, in effect instantly reducing the resistance.

Some interesting reading: https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html

An example of high voltage with low current - a small van de graff generator can easily generate 100,000+ volts but the current is only micro-amp. A friend and I built one years ago from a couple of stainless steel mixing bowls. For a party trick he demonstrated 11" sparks off the tip of his tongue. Hold a pin in your fingers and you will get no spark at all since the sharp point starts discharging the sphere at about 3' away. (You can see the spray of electrons at the pin point) But bring the flat of your hand or forearm near the charged sphere and you'll get a surprisingly painful (but harmless) shock at maybe 3-4 inches! But the thing couldn't light a match, let alone burn wood.

[Frank Pratt]

It's not high voltage that is the killer... it's high current. You can have high voltage at very low current and not be harmed. No matter what the voltage is, low or high, if there is a high current associated with it that's where the danger is. Current as low as 200mA can be fatal.

If there's enough current to burn the wood, there's more than enough to cook your guts. I don't know why people pull out the old argument that it isn't the high voltage that kills. If you have a source with sufficient power output to do harm to a human, then high voltage is definitely the killer. It's the high voltage that drives the current up to dangerous levels.

It's kinda like saying that a fall from a great height won't kill you. It's the sudden stop at the end that does.

[Barry McFadden]

If there's enough current to burn the wood, there's more than enough to cook your guts. I don't know why people pull out the old argument that it isn't the high voltage that kills. If you have a source with sufficient power output to do harm to a human, then high voltage is definitely the killer. It's the high voltage that drives the current up to dangerous levels.

It's kinda like saying that a fall from a great height won't kill you. It's the sudden stop at the end that does.

It's the current that's dangerous in these wood burners not the voltage. Also, high voltage doesn't necessarily drive the current up. Years ago I zapped myself by touching the lead of the picture tube on a tube tv. These leads carry approx. 25000 to 35000 volts but only about 2 mA of current... scared the hell out of me but that's all.....

[Timothy Thorpe Allen]

Yes, it may be current that kills, not the voltage per se.... But for a given resistance, the current will be proportional to voltage..... (Ohm's law)

So I would say that higher voltages have the potential to generate higher currents (no puns intended).

Why else would there be "Danger, High Voltage!" warning signs on the enclosures of devices where high voltages might be present?

A member of my local turning club does some of this Lichtenberg burning and had the club over to his shop for one of our recent meetings to do a demo. He used a 15KV Neon sign transformer, had leads with insulation rated in excess of the voltage, and wore heavy insulated gloves rated for the voltage as well. I don't recall his footware, but presumably one would want to wear electrically-rated boots or shoes too. After burning a couple pieces, he asked if anyone else wanted to try. No one took him up on the offer. One of the other members of the club is an electrician; he told me he knew people who had died trying this (the implication being he knew them personally...)

[Frank Pratt]

It's the current that's dangerous in these wood burners not the voltage. Also, high voltage doesn't necessarily drive the current up. Years ago I zapped myself by touching the lead of the picture tube on a tube tv. These leads carry approx. 25000 to 35000 volts but only about 2 mA of current... scared the hell out of me but that's all.....

For a given resistance, higher voltage absolutely will drive the current up as long as the source is capable of delivering the higher current. It's the misconceptions you've presented here that make my argument against untrained people doing this sort of thing.

And I can relate to your painful TV experience. I did exactly the same thing when I was in high school.

[Pat Barry]

What is not clear to me is what exactly is limiting the current for any of these transformers. They don't seem to be complex and current limiting of high voltage is very difficult, therefore I don't feel comfortable with the current limits being discussed. Need to dig into this further.

[Rod Sheridan]

What is not clear to me is what exactly is limiting the current for any of these transformers. They don't seem to be complex and current limiting of high voltage is very difficult, therefore I don't feel comfortable with the current limits being discussed. Need to dig into this further.

The only current limiting factor is the transformer impedance.

For a small transformer like that, it may be 10% which would result in a short circuit current of several amperes.

These transformers are extremely dangerous when not used properly......Regards, Rod

[Pat Barry]

The only current limiting factor is the transformer impedance.

For a small transformer like that, it may be 10% which would result in a short circuit current of several amperes.

These transformers are extremely dangerous when not used properly......Regards, Rod

This what I've been concerned about. The 'current rating' isn't the maximum current that the transformer can deliver, its the maximum current that it should be designed to be used for.
I think this is where some of the real danger comes from. People misinterpret that current rating and then compare it to some electrocution hazard data that they don't really understand and then think they comprehend the potential danger. That's why I feel that hand held probes are an accident (potential fatality) waiting to happen, particularly since the users heart is directly in the shortest path for the current to flow from hand to hand.

[Frank Pratt]

The thing with this particular activity is that in order to be able to burn the fractal design in the wood, the transformer needs to be capable of a dangerous level of current.

[Pat Barry]

The thing with this particular activity is that in order to be able to burn the fractal design in the wood, the transformer needs to be capable of a dangerous level of current.

Definitely so.

[John K Jordan]

Definitely so.

I was tired of the fractal burned look after the 2nd or 3rd one I saw but other are obviously intrigued by it. Perhaps someone will program a laser engraver to safely engrave a pattern that looks like the fractal design. I don't think the math to randomize the pattern would be that hard.

JKJ

[Pat Barry]

I was tired of the fractal burned look after the 2nd or 3rd one I saw but other are obviously intrigued by it. Perhaps someone will program a laser engraver to safely engrave a pattern that looks like the fractal design. I don't think the math to randomize the pattern would be that hard.

JKJ

It could create interesting patterns for sure. Not a replica of the randomness of the electric burns, but certainly safer. The laser program could be made to reproduce the depth and breadth of the burns also. I'd like to see this.

[Glen Dion]

I personally use a power supply for a neon sign.
Found that high voltage with less current to be more effective. One would set you back about $80.
I'm also fortunate enough to come across a length of solid dielectric (non conductive) material to attach a couple probes to.
Also learned using probes provides a degree of control.
Even with dielectric probes\wands I use rubber gloves intended for use with high voltage.

Be safe!

[Mark Bolton]

The point that is missed here (though the OP may just want to play around) is that this is yet another fad that has run its course and coming in on the tail end is likely a waste of time. Being inquisitive is great (as long as it doesnt get you killed). Playing around with it for your own enjoyment is one thing but many events, juried shows, have banned the process.

Its mind blowing in these days how fast these fad's run their course and are dead. We'll soon be reading endless posts about failed epoxy river tables, the fractal burning lasted months at best. Gah..

[Kev Williams]

At least part of the reason fads fade away is, people working the fad expect other people think it's really cool and pay for an example... I remember at the fair one year, some guy was making some of the most stunning spray-paint art I've ever seen. He always had a big crowd of people watching him make a painting. When he was done, everyone was 'wow, that was really cool!!' -- but I never saw a single person buy one of his paintings. He would've been better off charging people to watch... ;)

[Frank Pratt]

At least part of the reason fads fade away is, people working the fad expect other people think it's really cool and pay for an example... I remember at the fair one year, some guy was making some of the most stunning spray-paint art I've ever seen. He always had a big crowd of people watching him make a painting. When he was done, everyone was 'wow, that was really cool!!' -- but I never saw a single person buy one of his paintings. He would've been better off charging people to watch... ;)

Agreed. I watched a guy doing that & he did sell some, but couldn't have been making more than a couple of bucks an hour. The process was very impressive to watch, but the end result, as art, was really lacking. A case of the whole being less than a sum of its parts.

I think it's the same as with epoxy river tables & fractal burning. Like wow, look what we can do here. But after the new wears off it just ain't that great.

[Pat Barry]

The point that is missed here (though the OP may just want to play around) is that this is yet another fad that has run its course and coming in on the tail end is likely a waste of time. Being inquisitive is great (as long as it doesnt get you killed). Playing around with it for your own enjoyment is one thing but many events, juried shows, have banned the process.

Its mind blowing in these days how fast these fad's run their course and are dead. We'll soon be reading endless posts about failed epoxy river tables, the fractal burning lasted months at best. Gah..
I just found out about this `fad` and I couldn't care less about whether some juried shows or events have `banned` the process. I do woodworking and other things for my enjoyment, not for some sort of ribbon. Its funny that some folks bring points like these up rather than attempting to make a positive contribution. Thank you for your opinion.

[Frank Pratt]

I just found out about this `fad` and I couldn't care less about whether some juried shows or events have `banned` the process. I do woodworking and other things for my enjoyment, not for some sort of ribbon. Its funny that some folks bring points like these up rather than attempting to make a positive contribution. Thank you for your opinion.

I think the point of the banning is to show how much the danger of the process is being almost universally recognized.

[Mark Bolton]

I just found out about this `fad` and I couldn't care less about whether some juried shows or events have `banned` the process. I do woodworking and other things for my enjoyment, not for some sort of ribbon. Its funny that some folks bring points like these up rather than attempting to make a positive contribution. Thank you for your opinion.

Pat,
The point I was pointing at was covered in the statement that followed. Its no shock your not interested in some ribbon, neither am I. But for a group of organizations to have made such swift decisions speaks volumes about the practice, how long it will be current, and more to the point whether anyone should be keeping it current in the first place.

We are on a forum than bans/deletes posts with a mere phrase that even in the most remote way allude to foul language, sexual references, and so on because some young kid "may see over the shoulder of their parent" or stumble across it inadvertently.

Thats the point of the ban's from events on the practice and to bring that to bear IS contributing positively. Some teenger scouring youtube on the internet who is taking stuff apart in their garage and has a half dozen dead microwaves.... bzzzzt... carbon popsicle. Thats far worse than them ever reading some innuendo of foul language but the mods have their conveniences.

Ive had lord knows how many posts plopped here for the most ludicrous of reasons that would never equate to a post that would get a grown individual or a young kid trying to replicate something they saw on the internet killed deader than a hammer.

Scour the net. You will find idiots who think if they are wearing rubber boots they are safe fractal burning. In my heart of hearts I believe those individuals are fine to be culled. But as has been stated here there are a lot of young, (and even old) very inexperienced people on the net.

[Frank Pratt]

We are on a forum than bans/deletes posts with a mere phrase that even in the most remote way allude to foul language, sexual references, and so on because some young kid "may see over the shoulder of their parent" or stumble across it inadvertently.

Thats the point of the ban's from events on the practice and to bring that to bear IS contributing positively. Some teenger scouring youtube on the internet who is taking stuff apart in their garage and has a half dozen dead microwaves.... bzzzzt... carbon popsicle. Thats far worse than them ever reading some innuendo of foul language but the mods have their conveniences.

Ive had lord knows how many posts plopped here for the most ludicrous of reasons that would never equate to a post that would get a grown individual or a young kid trying to replicate something they saw on the internet killed deader than a hammer.

Scour the net. You will find idiots who think if they are wearing rubber boots they are safe fractal burning. In my heart of hearts I believe those individuals are fine to be culled. But as has been stated here there are a lot of young, (and even old) very inexperienced people on the net.

Mark, glad you had the little rant about forum nuttiness, and agree with your sentiments. We'll probably both get banned now :rolleyes:

[Kev Williams]

Just hit a local TV station's website to look for a used wheelchair for my FIL in their classifieds, and this was front & center. I'd never heard of this until this thread, now on the local news. Link to full story: https://www.ksl.com/article/46693681/utahn-hospitalized-after-being-shocked-while-wood-burning
http://www.engraver1.com/woodburn.jpg

[Eric Danstrom]

From the story:

“They were checking me over and he said yeah we actually see a lot of these accidents,” Timothy said of his doctor.

[John K Jordan]

From the story:

“They were checking me over and he said yeah we actually see a lot of these accidents,” Timothy said of his doctor.


It wasn't clear to me if by "these accidents" the doctor was referring specifically to incidents from fractal burning or was he including accidents from high energy electrical burns from other sources. If someone is shocked and burned to a less serious extent I wouldn't be surprised if the story wouldn't get spread like this one. It would be interesting to get a better idea of the extent of incidents and the risk. Anyone reading know of a fractal burning incident to share, perhaps one that didn't lead to a near-death experience?

I remember some years ago a couple of people sent me pictures by email of their fractal work. Come to think of it, I haven't heard from one guy for a long time...

JKJ

[Pat Barry]

Thanks for the news story. What got me was his statement
“I thought it was completely safe”
Thankfully his son checked on him and they knew enough to basic CPR.

[Mark Bolton]

What got me was the jumper cables. Like I said, I have no problem with the cull factor. Bad things happen to good people, and bad things happen to stupid people. But watching that pretty much sum's up why things become illegal. Sad.. but it is what it is. Hopefully he had gold level insurance.

[Frank Pratt]

What really breaks my heart is how often the casualties of this technique have a spouse & small children that they leave behind.

[Pat Barry]

What got me was the jumper cables. Like I said, I have no problem with the cull factor. Bad things happen to good people, and bad things happen to stupid people. But watching that pretty much sum's up why things become illegal. Sad.. but it is what it is. Hopefully he had gold level insurance.

Illegal? Cull factor? Wow, different points of view that's for sure.

[Eric Danstrom]

You asked for and received responses. It's a free country, go for it!

[Mark Bolton]

Illegal? Cull factor? Wow, different points of view that's for sure.

Well, its kinda the two positions most commonly taken. No regs/rules/laws (which I like) but means you have to be willing to accept the cull. The ill informed, not-so-bright, and innocent, will just pay the piper. Then the other side of the coin is seatbelts, airbags, bike helmets, crumple zones. If enough people were turned into carbon it would never be the no regs option not that there is any way to criminalize the practice.

Thankfully the fad didnt take hold like many of the others though Im sure its still widely going on.

[Steve Demuth]

Its mind blowing in these days how fast these fad's run their course and are dead. We'll soon be reading endless posts about failed epoxy river tables, the fractal burning lasted months at best. Gah..

Exactly. I was over the "turned resin with some kind of wood in it" after the second one I saw. Same with slabs containing a massive stream or puddle of resin.

[Mark Bolton]

Exactly. I was over the "turned resin with some kind of wood in it" after the second one I saw. Same with slabs containing a massive stream or puddle of resin.

I have always thought the resin spheres with a burl base and some whatever are kind of neet and at least they will likely be stable for eternity. The stream/puddle of resin tables are already beginning to rear their ugly head and my guess is there will either be a lot of them in the dump, a lot of shops (if they are still in business) getting sued, or a lot of people scouring to sue a shop that's closed the doors, locked the blinds, and cut all communication.

The resin thing is a ticking time bomb.

[Frederick Skelly]

The stream/puddle of resin tables are already beginning to rear their ugly head and my guess is there will either be a lot of them in the dump, a lot of shops (if they are still in business) getting sued, or a lot of people scouring to sue a shop that's closed the doors, locked the blinds, and cut all communication.

The resin thing is a ticking time bomb.

I get that the slabby tables are a passing style. But Im not following you about the potential for lawsuits. Are the resin tables unsafe for some reason? What issue will cause lawsuits? I'm sorry to have to ask, but I havent heard.

Thank you.
Fred

[Mark Bolton]

I get that the slabby tables are a passing style. But Im not following you about the potential for lawsuits. Are the resin tables unsafe for some reason? What issue will cause lawsuits? I'm sorry to have to ask, but I havent heard.

Thank you.
Fred

I.e. someone who paid several thousand or tens of thousands of dollars for one that delaminates, clouds, goes haywire, due to any number of things from encapsulating air dried slabs, and all the other differential wood movement issues that are covered consistently.

[Frederick Skelly]

I.e. someone who paid several thousand or tens of thousands of dollars for one that delaminates, clouds, goes haywire, due to any number of things from encapsulating air dried slabs, and all the other differential wood movement issues that are covered consistently.

Thanks Mark!

[Pat Barry]

https://www.theonion.com/pg-e-makes-amends-for-power-outages-by-pumping-wires-fu-1838980230/amp?__twitter_impression=true
And some folks think fractal woodburning is dangerous!

[johnny means]

https://www.theonion.com/pg-e-makes-amends-for-power-outages-by-pumping-wires-fu-1838980230/amp?__twitter_impression=true
And some folks think fractal woodburning is dangerous!

This needs a disclaimer. The boomer crowd tends not to recognize satire.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I have turned some plates for an acquaintance that does it. He built a cabinet to do it in that has a vent fan. If the door is open the juice is off. there are remote arms made of some heavy stiff rubber to hold the electrodes. The wood is placed inside and held down with some kind of rubber clips. The wood is moistened and then the door closed. There is a foot peddle control as well as the safety switch on the door. An electrician helped him built it. I understand, they used a neon light transformer. supposed to be a safer voltage. I have been present when people did it. I stayed on the other side of the room to watch. The buzzing and burning sounded like the sound track for the movie: Young Frankenstein. I was tempted to contact the electrician to build a cabinet like they did, but figured I have more than enough crap going on.

It is dangerous, but so is all electricity if you are stupid. Some folks think they are smart, but are not. Jury rigging some easy to find components isn't necessarily the best way to do things. I like the idea of redundant safety precautions. and proper non conductive materials, instead of a couple wire nuts and some cords at the kitchen table. (The first demonstration I watched in person, was just wire nuts and stuff laying loose on a plastic table. )

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I wrote below. An acquaintance and his electrician buddy built a fan ventilated cabinet with a safety switch on the door. If the door is open the electricity is off. The cabinet had hard rubber handles holding the electrodes which were placed from outside. With the door closed, there was still a foot peddle to operate the machine. There was really no way to reach the electrodes or work without opening the door, which instantly turned off the juice.

[Pat Barry]

I wrote below. An acquaintance and his electrician buddy built a fan ventilated cabinet with a safety switch on the door. If the door is open the electricity is off. The cabinet had hard rubber handles holding the electrodes which were placed from outside. With the door closed, there was still a foot peddle to operate the machine. There was really no way to reach the electrodes or work without opening the door, which instantly turned off the juice.

That is a much safer way to go except maybe you don't get the best view. I was thinking along this line except to add a camera inside the enclosure that could be positioned to allow a very good, very remote view of things.