How flat a scrub...

[Bram de Jong]

Hi,

I got a 5 in my possession thst the previous owner must have something bad to. When I put it on a flat surface it rocks back and forth on two corners. So it's rather badly twisted. Maybe 1.5mm or so.

I was thinking of converting it to a scrub, would such twist be ok in that case? Of course I can attack it with a file to make it flatter, but perfect it's not gonna be!

As always any hints welcome!

Bram

[steven c newman]

Lets see, to "scrub", you are using a thick, highly cambered edge, to take HEAVY cross-grain shavings.......a "flat sole" is usually not a requirement. Of course, one could hold the plane in such a way, that the sole can wear away the supposed high spots...over time.....since that seems to be the way the sole got the way it is now.

Unless an iron body was subjected to a fire....iron bases do not "warp".....they wear....slowly. Figure out how said "warpped" plane was held....was it used at a skew to the grain? Skew the plane the opposite direction, and over time ( decades?) things will even out.

It wasn't just the "previous " owner....more than likely it was a line of previous owners.

[Eric Danstrom]

Might have left the factory that way, plenty are warped out of the box. If I was in your position I'd sharpen a blade with 8" radius and give it a try. Then use a belt sander to knock the corners down if it needs it. What have you got to lose? I know I couldn't sell it as a bench plane in that condition.

[Jim Koepke]

If this plane is used as a scrub plane the twist shouldn't be much of an issue if any.

The only 'precision' required of a scrub plane is from the user making sure it doesn't pass the desired depth of material removal.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

I agree with all the above. I have one blade for my scrub cambered at 3" radius. It leaves a washboard but it chews through spruce and fir like a locomotive. 1.5mm of twist in the sole on mine would not be noticeable.

[Doug Dawson]

Hi,

I got a 5 in my possession thst the previous owner must have something bad to. When I put it on a flat surface it rocks back and forth on two corners. So it's rather badly twisted. Maybe 1.5mm or so.

I was thinking of converting it to a scrub, would such twist be ok in that case? Of course I can attack it with a file to make it flatter, but perfect it's not gonna be!

As always any hints welcome!

Bram

No, it's junk. Melt it down or throw it away.

Or paint stuff on the side of it and sell it, maybe on an auction site...

[Kurtis Johnson]

If this plane is used as a scrub plane the twist shouldn't be much of an issue if any.

The only 'precision' required of a scrub plane is from the user making sure it doesn't pass the desired depth of material removal.

jtkAgreed. You don’t need flat to scrub.

[Doug Dawson]

Agreed. You don’t need flat to scrub.

A scrub is concerned with the global shape of the board. You're trying to remove material en masse. The dedicated scrub (#40) is short for weight reasons and because flatness doesn't really matter too much there. When you start talking about converting much longer planes like the #5, there will be a tendency for the "global" shape of the board to start conforming to the twist of the plane, which is exactly what you _do_not_ want. Aggressive twist like the OP describes is IMO a disqualification. You just don't need it.

[steven c newman]

Run that by a tad slower.....as in "HUH?"


"Aggressive twist"? 1.5mm? over 14" in length? Really? Sounds more like a "Much ado about..."

The curve of the cutter would stick down further than that......sheesh. Worry about "flat" when the Try/Fore plane is getting used....

[Jim Koepke]

A scrub is concerned with the global shape of the board. You're trying to remove material en masse. The dedicated scrub (#40) is short for weight reasons and because flatness doesn't really matter too much there. When you start talking about converting much longer planes like the #5, there will be a tendency for the "global" shape of the board to start conforming to the twist of the plane, which is exactly what you _do_not_ want. Aggressive twist like the OP describes is IMO a disqualification. You just don't need it.

Doug, For some reason your post doesn't make sense to me. Maybe something is being missed. Even this plane seems to do okay for scrub work:

421226

Its sole is far from flat.

jtk

[Doug Dawson]

Run that by a tad slower.....as in "HUH?"


"Aggressive twist"? 1.5mm? over 14" in length? Really? Sounds more like a "Much ado about..."

The curve of the cutter would stick down further than that......sheesh. Worry about "flat" when the Try/Fore plane is getting used....

Well, maybe it's easier to find a plane that you can convert to a scrub, that is not steeped in such perversity. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. :^)

[Stewie Simpson]

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=421226&d=1575850772&thumb=1

Interesting Gutter Plane Jim.

[Doug Dawson]

Doug, For some reason your post doesn't make sense to me. Maybe something is being missed. Even this plane seems to do okay for scrub work:

421226

Its sole is far from flat.


It's HOW it's flat or not that matters. Twist is different.

[steven c newman]

More wisdom from Left Field?

Since I don't smoke....explain.

421237
To take Sycamore slabs like this..
421238
And run a scrub jack over them...and not even worry about it having a "flat" sole. Of course, one could use a "perfectly flat" soled plane, taking sub-thousandths shavings, and maybe a week to get this same plank flat....haven't the time, actually.

[Doug Dawson]

More wisdom from Left Field?

Since I don't smoke....explain.

421237
To take Sycamore slabs like this..
421238
And run a scrub jack over them...and not even worry about it having a "flat" sole. Of course, one could use a "perfectly flat" soled plane, taking sub-thousandths shavings, and maybe a week to get this same plank flat....haven't the time, actually.

Why would you work with a bent screwdriver when you could just rummage around and find a straight one?

[Andrew Seemann]

Because the "screwdriver" in question is only bent by 0.060" over 14 inches?

[Doug Dawson]

Because the "screwdriver" in question is only bent by 0.060" over 14 inches?

I'm not going to argue that people should not put defective tools to use. So go to town with that. :^) I'll be your cheerleader. Recycling is important.

[steven c newman]

And...just who said it WAS defective, anyway....Screwdriver???? Screwdriver??? Something screwy going on???

IF I recall correctly (spelling it out for you..) Stanley did not "mill" their No. 40 scrub planes....just Japanned them, and sent them out.

Of course...there are some out there, that think the world is flat....and even used feeler gauges to prove it.....on All Fools Day, of course....

[Andrew Seemann]

Actually, for the record, I probably would have just dropped the plane in question on the stationary belt sander and taken out the milimeter and a half (assuming the base was thick enough) and used it as jack plane, but only if I had needed one.

As it is, I have two good jack planes and 4 more (long) awaiting restoration, so in my current situation, I probably would have used it as a parts plane (i.e. put it on the shelf with its 4 friends). But that is because I already have two good jack planes and two good Stanley #40, so I'm pretty covered in the rough flattening department. And for that matter, I only face joint by hand when a board isn't flat enough to go though the 15" Grizzly planer and won't fit on the 6" jointer. And that is just to knock of the high spots so it registers correctly on the planer bed.

I had children-of-the-Depression parents, so my upbringing is to try to repair and reuse everything. It takes a lot of effort to overcome that sometimes:)

[Jim Koepke]

Well, maybe it's easier to find a plane that you can convert to a scrub, that is not steeped in such perversity. (edited)

To me a plane that isn't in decent shape for its original use is a likely prospect for use as a scrub plane. That is how one of my ebay lemons got used to make lemonade.

It still eludes me as to how a plane sole with a bit of twist being used as a scrub is going to make a twisted plank. My understanding is one usually works to a specific point or line with the scrub to dimension a piece before truing flat and square.

If your statement is correct and the twisting is repeatable, the plane could be used to make propellers. That is a special purpose plane someone might find quite useful for a specialized project.

It might be great for someone making whirly-gigs.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Of course...there are some out there, that think the world is flat....and even used feeler gauges to prove it....

Thanks for the set up Steven:

421243

They didn't use feeler gauges to check that one.

jtk

[Bram de Jong]

De averaging out the replies it sounds to me like I should be fine ;)

As I don't have access to a belt sander I'll have a look t what I can do with the lage bastard file I have lying around. Maybe shave off that 1.5mm

Somehow looking at the wooden planes in second hand shops here in Germany I've never come across any cambered irons!

Bram

[Doug Dawson]

And...just who said it WAS defective, anyway....Screwdriver???? Screwdriver??? Something screwy going on???

IF I recall correctly (spelling it out for you..) Stanley did not "mill" their No. 40 scrub planes....just Japanned them, and sent them out.

Of course...there are some out there, that think the world is flat....and even used feeler gauges to prove it.....on All Fools Day, of course....

Why don't you just replace your buggered scrub plane with an adze? At least then you know what you're dealing with. :^)

BTW, you can actually do that.

Here's a nice example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoTBHactmLE

[steven c newman]

Nah...I can use this strange contraption...
421273
About all it is good for, anyway....

[Stewie Simpson]

According to this source, Stanley abandoned surface grinding the soles of their planes sometime after the 1950.s

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/antique-tool-faq.txt


(Sometime after the 1950's Stanley abandoned surface grinding the soles of
their planes and just belt sanded them. I'm told Record still grinds theirs
to .002).

[steven c newman]

What is used as a scrub..
421279
This is the one I use..
421280
Large mouth opening..
421281
Cambered iron...I did check the sole a moment ago..
421282
Any straighter/flatter than this...
421283
Doesn't really matter all that much, does it?

[Doug Dawson]

According to this source, Stanley abandoned surface grinding the soles of their planes sometime after the 1950.s

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/antique-tool-faq.txt

That explains some things.